 And so thanks everybody for joining us today. And we wanna thank our alums for coming and joining us virtually to talk about their experiences with the U.S. Foreign Service. And we're gonna start by letting each of them introduce themselves. So Adam, do you wanna start? Sure. Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Adam Levy. I graduated from Puff's undergraduate in 2008. So it's great to be back virtually on campus to chat with you all. After graduation, I worked in Northern Uganda with a few other Tufts alums and a small nonprofit. They're looking at transitional justice and reconciliation. After that, I worked on some track two initiatives based actually out of the IGL with an organization called Beyond Conflict. And there I went on to graduate school. I am an autonomous art pickering fellow, a graduate fellow. So that was a big part of my kind of entry point into the Foreign Service. I've been on the Foreign Service for about seven years or so. My first assignment was in Bamako, Mali. I was a political economic officer there during a period of a lot of transition in Mali as the country was dealing with challenges related to counterterrorism, kind of governance issues and a lot of development challenges. From there, I went on to Havana and I was there for a short period of time. Unfortunately, I had to leave due to some of the challenges that happened on the island to our diplomatic staff. From there, I headed on to Toronto, to a lovely little consulate there, working on an important relationship between the US and Canada. There ain't some complicated economic times between our two countries. And now I am back in Washington DC where I work on the Syria desk, working on issues related to supporting the political solution to the Syrian conflict and addressing both the vast humanitarian needs as well as the political challenges with Russia and Syria and other parties to the conflict. So that's a quick brief bio myself. I'm happy to talk further, whether it's about the Pickering Fellowship, whether about my time in the Foreign Service, many of those assignments as well. Thank you. Adam, I didn't realize you were a Pickering Fellow. I'm also a Pickering Fellow. And I think you and I also served in SRAP as part of our fellowships. We have, we have. I saw that in your bio. So yeah, cool to see you. All right, why don't we go to Maria then and to pick up on the Pickering. So hi, everyone. My name is Maria Elias. I graduated from Fletcher two years ago in May of 2018. I'm a Malt. My undergrad was at Bowdoin College. I studied math there. And after college, I worked in Boston, Foreign Insurance Industry. Very quickly realized that the corporate world was not where I wanted to spend my life and always had an inkling for public service and government work, international affairs, especially being from the DC area. That's where I grew up. So similar to Adam, I'm also a Thomas Pickering Fellow, which was also my introduction to the Foreign Service in a more official way. But I had been involved with the State Department through a Fulbright fellowship. I taught English in Turkey the year before I came to Fletcher in 2015. That was a phenomenal experience. That was truly kind of what cemented my career path in knowing that I wanted to serve my country but through the thrill of being and living internationally. I joined the Foreign Service in September of 2018. I am currently in Amman, Jordan. I am serving in the consular section for my consular tour, which as the rest of us will talk about is kind of required in your career before you get tenure. So everyone must put in some time in the consular section. I'm really enjoying it. I wear two hats. I work in the visa section, non-immigrant visas, for people that want to come to the United States for a temporary period of time. And I also work in the American Citizen Services Unit, which is my favorite section out of all three of them, the third section being immigrant visas. Currently, I'm acting ACS Chief, American Citizen Services Chief, because of COVID shortages and half of our staff being back in the United States on authorized departure. It's been a phenomenal experience being in Jordan. I've been here for nine months now. And it's everything I've imagined. The career to be it's fulfilling, it's rewarding. I enjoy my work. I enjoy our colleagues. But I don't really have a reference point because I haven't been to another country yet on assignment. So I can't give you the comparative, but I can tell you that as a single in the Foreign Service, it's not as bad as I thought it would be. I'm living in a very big house to myself. Even singles start with three bedrooms. That's kind of a minimum. Anyway, we can talk more about the lifestyle if you're interested in that. So that's my intro. Great, thank you. And Michelle. All right, hi everyone. So I graduated from Tufts in 2000 and I was in the Epic program that year, also finishing up in 2000. I am with USAID, the US Agency for International Development. So in addition, I think when people think of the Foreign Service, people automatically think of State Department. So for folks out there looking at careers in the Foreign Service, know that USAID also has a Foreign Service. As does the US Department of Agriculture. There's the Foreign Agriculture Service and the US Department of Commerce has the Foreign Commercial Service, as well as the very little known Broadcasting Board of Governors. So I think there's something like five Foreign Service officers there. But anyway, just know that the Foreign Service is diverse. And so if you are looking to get into the Foreign Service, there are a few different avenues of doing it. And so I can speak to my experience as a Foreign Service officer with USAID. So when I graduated from Tufts, I got a job working at a non-governmental organization working on a USAID funded contract. At the time, USAID often works through grantees and contractors to implement the programs. So I worked on a program that was supporting individuals from the West Bank and Gaza to come to the United States to pursue their education. So it was an international exchange type of program. So I worked at that job for about five years before I felt like I was hitting kind of a ceiling where I couldn't get much further without a master's degree. And so using the experience that I gained, I realized that I wanted to further my studies in the field of international development. And I went to Brandeis University's Heller School of Social Policy and Management for the Master of Arts degree in Sustainable International Development. And that includes a year of intense full-time coursework followed by a practicum on which you base your master's paper. So I chose to go do my practicum with a local NGO in Sri Lanka looking at conflict and development. As I graduated from that program in 2007, USAID was starting a new hiring initiative for the Foreign Service. So went ahead, put my application in. And in the meantime, worked for another nonprofit organization on State Department Education-funded grants. And then in 2008 joined the USAID Foreign Service. And I went on my first tour to Cairo where I worked in the program office there. So I am a program officer, which means that I work in the office that is the link between the mission director and the technical offices in the mission. We manage the budget, strategy, the planning, reporting. Often communications is housed in the program office. And we also generally take charge of cross-cutting issues and monitoring and evaluation. So then after my tour in Cairo, I went to Afghanistan where I was in a, I was not in Kabul. I was at the time USAID and the State Department had kind of regional platforms throughout the country. So I was assigned to the regional platform for Western Afghanistan based in the city of Herat. We were actually on a military base, but just outside the city of Herat. And then I went on to do four years in USAID Guatemala. And then I decided it was time to get back to Washington for a bit. So I worked in USAID's Bureau of Legislative and Public Affairs as a congressional liaison officer between the agency and our congressional stakeholders that also included a fellowship in Congress through the Brookings Institution for about six, seven months. And then after that, I came here where I am now in USAID Hunters where I'm the director of the program office for our mission. And I've been here since last August. So coming up on almost half of my tour at this point being under lockdown, COVID lockdown, but here I am. Great, great. Well, thank you. I wanted to ask each of you now if you wanted to talk about kind of your experience working in the US Foreign Service, kind of what you see is the pros and the cons, the challenges that you face and kind of what keeps you working there now. So you can start, Adam, do you wanna start again? Sure. So I've worked for the State Department and from both as an intern as part of my Pickering Fellowship in Beijing, the State Department, then as a first tour officer in relatively smaller embassy in West Africa and then to a consulate and now back here in the department. So I say that only in context of each environment is a very different place to work. The whole Department of State is fairly hierarchical. There is titles, there's leadership, things have to be, had gone through many, many, many layers of review before a tweet is even made, for example, believe it or not, we have to have tweets cleared by the Secretary of State. So there's a lot of layers of bureaucracy, but at the same time, as an individual officer, you do have autonomy at your job and at your post. Depends on your management, but I remember being in Malawi as a first tour officer with a lot of leeway to engage with our host country, whether it's the government, whether it's NGOs, whether it's civil society, the embassies depend on you as the officer to go out and build those relationships and to give someone a chance to see what the American diplomacy looks like, both on what we look like as officers and what kind of, and how we're there to listen. So I give that context, because I think in the news, we hear a lot of kind of top line stories about the Department of State directing policy and saying you can't engage with the populations or certain policies that might not be fully, fully backed by all Americans, but you really are at a local level are the faces of the foreign policy. And I think that's important to remember that a foreign service officer comes from all different backgrounds and you use that background in your day to day life. And I think that's valued by post. I mean, I know people who, I mean, depending on your language background, you never know, even if you might be assigned to a place that speaks Mandarin, having other language and having other cultural experiences becomes very important to you to advance forward. So I just wanna make that point clear that the foreign service really should and the department is working on more making sure we represent all of America and that we actually kind of act on the way that it supports our values on that front. And I think I'm an example of that to the Pick Green Fellowship. For example, that's one way to ensure that our values are presented and maintained. So yeah, again, I put that as a junior officer, you are within some structures, but there is a place for expression and also come up with creative ideas once you're, for example, when you're at post. I'll just keep that as a small starting point. Adam, do you wanna talk a little bit more, give some specifics for Molly in terms of what, you know, what that look like as you going out to your first post? So my first assignment was as a reporting officer in the Polycon section. My second assignment was as a consular officer. As we mentioned, the one has to do a consular job. And I think it's actually quite important to be able to do that. Our first goal is to support Americans abroad and make sure they can get home safely. I mean, I'm sure all of us on this panel have worked on related to COVID, even if it might not be normally tasked as a consular officer to help get Americans home. So that's our primary goal. So I think it's really important aspect of that. But as a first tour officer in Bamako, I was, I mean, I was handling the political economic portfolio, but at the same time, I did a lot more on trade and working on kind of vulnerable parts of the economy and how do you incorporate informal networks into the formal sectors? So in part of my kind of out there talking to folks, I realized that there are a lot of these women entrepreneurs who weren't getting access to capital, who weren't getting loans from banks. And I was like, what, you know, this is, this is, you know, more than half the population can't get financing to start up a small business. So I kind of discovered that through my conversations and raised that with my leadership. This seems like an area that the US government hasn't been actively engaging with. So that idea led to working with the USAID, so working with Michelle's counterparts in Mali, also working with the Department of Treasury back in Washington to find ways we can give loans to banks or guarantee loans to banks in Mali to give money towards, to these women-owned businesses. So this was an idea that we kind of just generated at post and realized it was a gap in US foreign policy towards Mali. Other countries may have had strong and vibrant programs on that nature, but this was missing in our project portfolio, for example. So that gave me a chance as a young officer to kind of be creative, to work with different agencies and really leverage USAID, Department of Treasury and State to get the job done. So that's just another example of kind of creativity that you can do on your own at a first assignment, even though you're still learning the ropes and you're still asking questions, but often asking those questions as an outsider gets things moving. Great, and was Bamako at that time given some of the, what was going on in Mali? Was that considered more of a hardship post or a regular post? It was a hardship assignment. So the Foreign Service divided into the assignments like Michelle talked about the Afghanistan, the Pakistan's Iraq, those are more of the ongoing conflict zones. Then the hardship assignments, those could range from Beijing due to the air pollution and other challenges to Mali, which also had an armed conflict, but not to the degree of an Afghanistan or Iraq. So that was there. When I began my assignment, that was a family post. So people could bring their families with them. There was a really vibrant expat scene and a fairly good school for children, for children of diplomats. But towards the end of my assignment, the situation devolved in a sense. So they became only an adult-only post. So then when that happens, families have an opportunity to decide whether they want to leave the assignment and go back to the States or look for a new assignment because of the safety of their family. And that's a difficult decision to make, but one that the Foreign Service lifestyle kind of requires you to be flexible to adapt to kind of really rapidly changing security environments. But there are systems in place within the department to facilitate people's transition back home. Great, thank you, thank you. All right, Maria, do you want to talk about the work that you're doing? Sure. Specifically, just to give people an idea. Sure, so as I hinted a little bit earlier with the consular section, unlike other countries, the consular section and consular services are part of the State Department Foreign Service apparatus, whereas you'll meet diplomatic colleagues from other missions where that's a separate function. So the consulate is separate from the embassy and in fact, that's a different agency. And so in the US Foreign Service, we're unique in that the implementation of our immigration policy does fall on the shoulders of many stakeholders, including consular officers who are the first people to interview. The case notes that we take are put in a system that is reviewed by CBP officers, Customs and Border Control officers. They will see that when they let someone in as well as many other stakeholders, including FBI, Homeland Security, UCSES. I share that to say that the work that consular officers do is really, really important. And I'm glad that it is a requirement for all Foreign Service officers to do because it's the bread and butter of what we do. On the one hand, we serve American citizens abroad, especially during the crisis, as I and many other people have been doing in the COVID environment right now. ACS is on the front lines of making sure Americans are safe and that they're able to get repatriated. When COVID hit, for example, in mid-March in Jordan, it was all hands on deck. We were working around the clock to locate Americans, find ways for them to get on repatriation flights, which were very few, but the demand was high and assuring people that amidst this crisis that while we can't give them money or food or medical assistance, that we could give them hope and work as much as we could with the host government to organize such flights in an environment that was very tense and stressful. So this being my first tour officer and we learn about this, that the crisis might happen. We go through a lot of training. I never imagined that I would be thrown into a crisis and kind of rise to the occasion to help manage it. So it's been a really humbling experience to be a part of a team to do that. The other thing I'll say is that as part, this other section, the consular section is non-immigrant visas. This is one of our biggest sections and almost all around the world, reason being that there's just a huge demand for America. America is a land of opportunity. It's a country that everybody wants to visit and therefore everybody wants a chance to come to it. Whether a short non-immigrant visa can look like a student visa, right? So students that come and study for a period of time and go home. So you probably have friends or international students, they know what an F1 is. It could be a J1 visa, an exchange program. It could be just your regular tourist. I wanna go to Disneyland, visit uncle on to V1, V2. It could be a famous singer in O visa where they're coming, performing a concert, going back to be an official visa. One of my portfolios is adjudicating officials, those that work for UN, those that are coming from other diplomatic missions. So foreign diplomats coming to be based in Washington and other places. So it's a wide plethora of visas that exist out there. But the catch is that the way our immigration law is written and that we assume that everyone is an immigrant until they prove us otherwise. At first, this was a very challenging for me when I joined my first couple of months because we're doing about 100 interviews in four hours. I mean, when I talk about the demand, some posts have it worse than us, but in Jordan we adjudicate about 250 to 280 visas a day and there's only four to five adjudicating officers, which means that in three minutes we have to make a decision about whether this person deserves a visa or not. And it's challenging, right? Because I'm asking them in Arabic. I went through a year of Arabic. All my questions, I'm asking them in Arabic. I'm listening in Arabic, but I'm translating in my mind. I'm typing notes in English. Meanwhile, I have a system in front of me that's telling me all this information that I need to take into consideration such as various different hits they may have or their previous history, where they come from and I'm making a quick decision. It was particularly challenging for me to adjudicate cases for PPU 19645, which was quote unquote the Muslim ban. As a Muslim myself in the Foreign Service, I felt that it was something that, you know, didn't really align with my personal values that we could have two similar, very similar cases, but I had to deny someone entry to the United States just because they're a Syrian passport or because they had a different nationality passport. And that was the law. And that was something that took me kind of a week or two. I'm not gonna lie to kind of get over and say, you know, I'm here, I'm representing the United States government. My job is to uphold the law. And I expressed my discomfort in adjudicating such cases, but I also realized that I could recruse myself from it, but I also had a duty to the law. And that's what we're here for first and foremost, is that we took a note to uphold and protect the constitution and that we are the implementers. So really the consulate officers are, when you hear about immigration policy on TV and you have people talking about it, and unfortunately it's often in the context of our border with Mexico. But our immigration policy is around the world. It's ports of entry, people from around the world coming and we are on the front lines of it implementing that. And the last thing I'll say is touching on Adam's point, it's so important to bring your full stuff to the workplace. You know, I, especially with what was happening in the United States very recently in terms of protests, very systemic conversations about systemic racism have been very difficult to have in an institution that has historically been underrepresented of diverse perspectives. And I think the State Department's come a long way in that through programs like the Rangel Fellowship, which is very similar to the Pickering Fellowship, as well as the Paine Fellowship, which is a similar pipeline into USAID. And these aren't the only ways. But all of that is to say that we, State Department really is committed to diverse perspectives from not just the East Coast and the West Coast, which has historically been the State Department, but geographic diversity, religious diversity, intellectual diversity, school of thought diversity, and of course racial and ethnic diversity as well. So, plug four, join the Foreign Service, go take the test, even if you don't think you're gonna try. Great, thanks. And Michelle, do you wanna kind of share your experiences and kind of the pros and cons? And you know, what are the challenges in terms of working with USAID on the ground? Sure, so thanks. And it was really interesting listening to Maria and Adam as well share their experiences. And I can see some similarities and linkages there, kind of to pick up on Maria's point of, you know, sometimes having some challenges based on current US policies. I'm here in Honduras, where of course, US policy and immigration policy currently plays a very big role in what we do. So the administration actually paused our foreign assistance to Honduras before I got here in March of 2019 because of large numbers of Honduran and other Central American migrants arriving at the US's Southwest border. And the perception in the administration that the government of Honduras needed to somehow do more to stop migrants from leaving their country. So USAID's role here has been, you know, for a number of years and it's interesting because I served in Guatemala from 2011 to 2015 when we saw a large increase in the number of unaccompanied minors from Central America leaving Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador commonly referred to as the Northern Triangle and going to the United States and now I'm back here. And so, you know, it's been a similar context and seeing a large number of Central Americans feeling pressure to leave their own countries but seeing kind of a different response from the administration. When I was in Guatemala, the administration's response at that time, it was the Obama administration, was to provide a large increase in funding to figure out, okay, why are people leaving and what can we do to make them feel safer at home and provide them with the opportunities at home that, you know, that they need to, you know, to feel like they can have a future in their own country. So, you know, even though the response has been different, USAID's work, I think has remained the same. And, you know, looking at in particular in Honduras, our current strategy is looking at citizen security. How do we make people feel safe and increase, you know, people's sense of security, decrease violence, increase the government of Honduras' ability to apply equitable justice in response to violent crimes, looking at reducing the extreme poverty that can drive people to feel like they don't have a future at home and provide not just the economic opportunities, but also the educational opportunities to allow people to see a future for themselves. And then we also work here on transparency and anti-corruption work to, that also serves to show people that they have a future at home. If they can see that, you know, the resources that the government is investing in the country are being done so in a transparent manner and an equitable manner and, you know, to show people that they have a say in how the country is governed. So, that's, you know, what we're doing here. You know, my work right now has been focused a lot on figuring out now that the administration has decided to move forward with the systems, how we can best fund projects that will meet the goals of our strategy for Honduras in line with US government priorities as well as with government of Honduras' priorities. So over the course of my career, I think, you know, some of the biggest, you know, pluses have been the ability to really get to know a country beyond what a tourist would normally see. For USAID, many of our tours are four years long. So that really gives an opportunity to live in a country, you know, be a part of that country in a way that, you know, I think many Americans, you know, don't have the opportunity to experience. And so that's been really rich for me. You know, it's offered me the chance to see a lot of things kind of that are really unique sites in each country but that are off the beaten path that you just wouldn't have time to see if you were a tourist to really get to know people and some of the complexities of society in these countries. Another plus is that, you know, I've now, this is my sixth post and I've been, you know, at the same job. So I've had the job security of always being a USA Foreign Service Officer, but every few years I have a brand new job. And so it helps to keep things really interesting. So I don't, you know, kind of, you know, just get, you know, fall into a pattern. I'm constantly having to learn something new, learn a new country, a new language, you know, and a new job as well. So that's, I think, really unique to the Foreign Service. And, you know, so I think those are some of the pros that I've had a really diverse array of experiences. You know, I think the biggest con is that, you know, you're far from your family in many situations. I've, you know, had to miss out on weddings and, you know, other kinds of family celebrations because I just, you know, couldn't get home for everything. You know, right now it's especially difficult. I've decided to remain in Honduras. I'm a single mother and fortunately I have childcare here. So I'm able to continue actually working. But, you know, it's been hard because I don't know when my daughter and I will be able to see my parents again, you know, when it will be safe for us to travel and when we'll be able to travel because the airport's been closed here since March. So, you know, that is something that's challenging and sometimes weighs on me, but I do hope that, you know, my daughter is, you know, going to have, you know, a positive experience growing up overseas and have, you know, that richness be a part of her life. Great, great. I was wondering if something all three of you could speak to is kind of the training you get to go to the different countries? Like, what's the preparation? How do you learn about a new posting? You know, Mari, you had mentioned the, you know, Arabic training, you know, and languages. Like how, how does that work? I'm gonna have to go first. Adam, did you want to start or? Okay, just really quickly, that's one of the best parts about the Korean Foreign Service is that you're a continual student. So if you really enjoy learning different languages and different tradecraft, as Michelle mentioned, every post, and Adam, every post you go to, you're in a different environment, you have a different title, you have a different work group of colleagues, you're wearing different hats, yet you're still working for, you know, mothership back in Washington. And so that's pretty cool that you have changed within a structure, that your mission is to continue to serve the American people, but you're doing it in so many different cultures and in so many different ways. State Department takes training very seriously. There's a whole institute dedicated solely to the study and focus of tradecraft. So the Foreign Service Institute in Arlington offers training from as small as four months, a top or upper to like a full immersion to one year or even two year courses where you do one year in Washington and one year abroad in another country where that language is predominantly spoken. They do courses in your tradecraft. So for example, for me to come out as a counselor officer, I had to take counselor general course. So how to adjudicate a visa, how to use the systems, how to what buttons to click and they have trained professionals and experts that do that. And even things like how to be a manager, how to be a leader, how to be a political officer, how to take classes in unconscious bias. I mean, it's like an institute, right? There are so many courses you can sign up online, how to do a public speaking, how to write a press release, how to talk to people of different backgrounds, how to give feedback, you know? So it runs the gambit, anything you're interested in you can find and I really appreciate that. I'll just add one thing. On the panel, you have three individuals who all went to graduate school in the Boston area. But at the same time, graduate school is not a requirement for the State Department of Foreign Service. I know for USAID, having a master's degree is required. But I do think having some work experience and or additional education is really useful. Again, there are plenty of people who come straight from undergraduate into the foreign service and they succeed and they do incredible work. But having some work experience outside, whether it's within NGO, whether it's a full-buy program, there's a lot of different ways you can get outside experience. I think that's important because it helps you prepare and also advocate for yourself what you want in the work environment. It also allows you to draw from different skills. So I worked before joining state, I worked in the NGO sector on conflict resolution and negotiation. So I had a perspective of being the outside about this or this is how I seen the Department of State act effectively or ineffectively somewhere else. So I think while the foreign service process is a long time and it's quite competitive, it doesn't hurt to do other things at the same time, to gain that experience, to gain that educational background. I mean, I think I use my education at the Kennedy School on a daily basis in the foreign service, whether it's thinking about leadership training, whether it's negotiation training, whether it's thinking about the theories of international relations. And I think back into my time at the IGL, I honestly, I think those trips I took to Kosovo back in 2007, 2008 or Uganda and Nepal, those also really prepared me to be in the foreign service because they gave me a perspective as a student, what it was like to be professional. It prepared me to ask those tough questions. So really, as you go through the application process for both state and USAID and State Department foreign service, draw upon those kind of experiences you've had while you're at Tufts. I mean, Tufts is a really unique place for that. And I'm not just giving that pitch because the IGL is wonderful, but I really think it prepared me and it gave me a bit of a leg up as I thought about how I want it to be a professional diplomat, how I want it to represent our country. Not just really quickly add on, is that Michelle mentioned earlier the various different types of foreign service. Don't forget the Queers International Affairs existing within other forms as well. So working for an NGO is a Queer International Affairs. Working for the DOD in a civil servant capacity or any other programs. I mean, DOD is so huge, you don't have to be a member of the military to be supporting the Department of Defense and its international missions. So I've met all sorts of people that have international careers that aren't, that isn't just the foreign service. So be open-minded to those experiences because they can lead you to different doors. Michelle, for preparing for USAID, how did that go? Yeah, sure. Yeah, thanks. And so as Adam mentioned, the USAID foreign service does require a master's degree. And so we do have a number of technical positions. So for example, you know, we do work in agriculture. We do work in education and health. So we have a lot of folks in our foreign service ranks who have specialized master's degrees in those fields. We also have people who have master's degrees in unrelated fields. So it's not that you have to have a specific, you know, degree. It's just that those can be helpful if you're looking to focus in a particular sector. In terms of my training, you know, I actually, I did some language training. USAID is a little bit different in how we designate which positions require language or not. But we also make use of the Foreign Service Institute that Mario was referring to. And then also just before my tour in Afghanistan, because I was in a field position, I did a specialized training where we worked in partnership with the National Guard. And they created kind of a fake Afghan village and used Afghan expats in the United States to role play with us. And they sent us in on kind of missions under specific scenarios, which was really fascinating. And I actually, in my real life experience, then when I went on to Afghanistan, I encountered some of those, you know, going in and meeting with different district level, you know, government officials or working with women's groups, for example. So that was a really unique training experience. We also, before going overseas, do have to go through a training that involves looking at kind of defensive driving techniques, particularly people going to places where security is an issue, looking at, you know, how do you respond in case of an attack? You know, I unfortunately have had to make use of some of that training, but, you know, it's been very useful. And then USAID, you know, just because of the nature of our work, for example, in terms of managing contracts and grants, we, you know, do get training in how to appropriately manage those contracts and grants. And we also get leadership training. In particular, I've taken a couple courses through the Federal Executive Institute, based in Charlottesville, that have been absolutely outstanding. And, you know, I think, Maria, you mentioned, you know, that the Foreign Service is not the only way to have an international career. And so one of the things that, you know, I often recommend when people ask me for career advice, particularly people who are coming out of an undergraduate program who say, oh, well, USAID requires a master's degree. I don't have that yet. I say, you know, USAID works through contractors and grantees, nonprofit organizations. That's actually how I started my career, is I worked for an organization that was implementing a USAID program. So look for those organizations that have those USAID contracts and grants. That's, you know, one way of having an entry point. And also I would just add on that, another piece of advice that I usually give is, you know, when you do see those job announcements, you know, there are often requirements that are pretty hard and fast. Like, for example, if it says you need a master's degree, well, you need a master's degree. But a lot of times, job announcements will list a number of requirements and there's nobody that meets all of those. And so go ahead and apply, even if you don't think that you meet all of them. I often see this hesitation, particularly among young women, when I applied to my first job out of undergrad, out of Tufts, one of the requirements for the job was knowledge of USAID processes and procedures. And I had never heard of USAID at the time. And I applied and I got the job. And that was kind of my springboard into this world. So, you know, it doesn't cost you anything. You know, we're not even at the point of mailing things like I was back in the day when I had to actually put a stamp on an envelope and mail in my resume. You know, it doesn't cost you anything to send that email and express your interest. And you just never know. Great, great. So one of the questions is, someone's wondering if you could touch on what you regard as the pros, cons to pursuing a career in the Foreign Service versus in those other U.S. platforms with an overseas presence like the DOD or intelligence community. Whoever wants to start. I think I'm biased, but I think that the Department of State is the premier foreign affairs agency. And I say that because in places where there aren't Department of Treasury, Department of Commerce, Department of Agriculture officers, the three individuals on the screen represent the United States in that regard. We are, you know, we are the preeminent Foreign Service Agency because of that. We have a huge expertise. I mean, there are people who work in the Department of State who focus on oceans, people who focus on refugee issues, people who focus on telecommunication trade agreements. I mean, you really have the whole spectrum of every possible issue. That's there. And the ambassador represents the United States and it's also tasked with representing those issues. So when he or she meets with a foreign minister or the Ministry of Trade and Industry, he or she will turn to you as the officer say, hey, brief me and prepare me for this conversation. And there won't be a Department of Defense person there, perhaps, or a Department of Trade or Commerce person there. So as the state and USA Foreign Service officers, we are that front line, that first answer. So I think state's pretty unique in really being broad. Again, we can't do our job without our DoD, you know, intelligence agency counterparts, but we're really, we're there with that public face. We are many parts of the world where the first time they've seen American government official, because there's, you know, because we are tasked to go everywhere in that country to really go and travel and to be that public face. And while they're, you know, they're not as many of their, people say there's only as many foreign service officers as are at the, you know, the army band, but at the same time, we do a pretty incredible job out there. So I think it's a unique agency that allows you to reinvent yourself every couple of years, as Michelle mentioned, and that's pretty exciting. So then you have the, like Michelle's had a lot more assignments that both me and Maria have had. And she brings that to every assignment since other agencies might not have that much of opportunities to be as broad as we get to be. Anyone else want to talk about the pros and cons compared to other? I mean, I think there's a lot of pros. You have to first of all decide for yourself that international affairs is a career you want because it's not just a job. It's quite frankly a lifestyle. And I think all my colleagues on the panel would agree with that. No matter which agency you pursue that career through, you are literally living abroad. I mean, when I was in Turkey, I remember hitting a low point. I was depressed for two months. Nothing made me happy. I just wanted to go back to the States. And you have to be mindful of those challenges, whether you're coming in as a single person, even when you're coming with family, like quite, what is it? Divorce rates in the Foreign Service are very high for a reason because it's not sustainable, right? To raise a family or to have a partner that may not be a tandem couple. That's a term we use for somebody who's married to another Foreign Service officer. And it's really difficult to commit to a career that you're progressing, hopefully, you know, upwards and also maintaining a happy, healthy life with a partner or with a family and raising kids. So that's, I would say, is the number one, maybe a con, right? For any international affairs career, is that you are committing to uprooting yourself. And if you can't handle that, then there are other options for you to be serving in Washington. And actually, that's the cool thing about Foreign Service 2 is that unlike the British model, which is you go out and serve somewhere for three years, you come back home in London, then you go out and serve in some other, further, you can stay out all your career if you want. You can come back and forth if you want, or I know a couple of Foreign Service officers that did their first two tours abroad and decided that, you know, being in Washington was where they wanted to have an impact on policy and be a Foreign Service officer. And you can do that. So that's, I would say the only con, it's not really a con, it's just a decision you want to be mindful of is that thinking of it through the lenses of you're not, it's not a nine to five job to tell you in training day one, when you're a diplomat overseas, you're a diplomat 24 sevens because when you are at a bar at 9 p.m. on Friday night, you're still representing the United States of government. You do not want to know about the need of times, right? That's kind of what they tell us in our A-100 training. And it's really true. It's true, right? And it's kind of suffocating too because do I post that thing on Facebook or do I hold back? Do I speak out about the issue or am I rep, you know, it's a constant moral battle. And the honorable thing about the Foreign Service is that they do leave the door open for you. The moment you feel that you are gravely and cannot execute your GD as a Foreign Service officer, whether it's a conflict of your personal values with the policy to resign is a very noble thing to do. And it's not looked down upon. A lot of people did that when we had major decisions with wars, right? So just wanted to throw that out there, that the cons about this kind of career are that you are immersed psychologically, emotionally, physically, and 100% 24-7. Yeah, so, you know, not having ever worked in the Department of Defense or in the intelligence community, I don't feel like I'm qualified to make a real comparison, but I can say that, you know, over my career, especially in Afghanistan, I've certainly worked very closely with colleagues in the Department of Defense. We kind of have this concept of the three Ds, development, diplomacy, and defense are, you know, what's required to implement effective, you know, foreign policy, U.S. foreign policy overseas. And so, you know, we certainly rely on our Defense Department colleagues to fulfill, you know, a certain role. And likewise, you know, they rely on us. You know, and we provide a lot of guidance about appropriate development, which the Department of Defense, you know, sometimes tries to do and, you know, but more and more, I think they're learning that, you know, there are certain ways that are better to do development than perhaps what the Department of Defense has done in the past. And, you know, they've been relying more and more on, you know, foreign service officers in USA to provide that guidance and to facilitate better coordination to make sure that, you know, the, you know, development types of activities that the Department of Defense is doing, you know, don't unintentionally create a bigger problem or exacerbate existing inequalities, for example, or, you know, take the place of what the host country government should be doing and should be taking on in terms of their responsibility. I did see another question pop up about, is it better to join the Foreign Service Young or gather more experience? And then also about kind of daily life and lifestyle. So I can jump into that if that's okay. Sure, yeah. I don't know how we're doing on time, but... We're good, we're good. As long as you guys are good, we're good. So, yeah, I mean, I don't have an opinion on it. I think it's an individual decision. I joined the Foreign Service. I think I was 28 or 29. And, you know, it was right for me at the time. And I also had colleagues who joined with me who were, you know, in their 40s. So, you know, when they joined, I knew State Department Foreign Service officers who had a career and then, you know, for 20 years and then decided, hey, you know, I've always wanted to kind of travel the world and joined at that point and, you know, started all over again. So I think it's really, you know, a very personal individual decision. There's no right or wrong time, you know, or age to join. In terms of the lifestyle, you know, I think, you know, it's different from post to post. In terms of, you know, what restrictions might be in place or, you know, kind of what the city is like, where you're, where you're living. You know, I've generally had positive experiences, you know, socializing with other Foreign Service officers, as well as, you know, I've made local friends as well. Yeah, I've been single for my entire Foreign Service career. You know, that can come with challenges of, you know, sometimes feeling lonely, especially when you first arrive at a new post, you know, that can be very challenging. We do have what's called a social sponsor when we first arrive. So that's someone who's already been at post for a little while, who kind of helps you get set up with your initial grocery shopping and introduces you to people. But, you know, I think it is difficult to every few years kind of have to develop a whole new social network that can be challenging. I think it's also a, you know, the Foreign Service community is unique in that everyone understands that and everyone knows that that's what everyone goes through when they get to a new post. And so, you know, at the same time, you do kind of have this automatic community when you get to a new place. And, you know, it was kind of funny when I went back to for my Washington tour and I was like, oh wait, I guess coworkers don't necessarily hang out socially all the time. But, you know, I am now, I mentioned I'm a single mom, so I have a daughter now, she's not school age yet. But, you know, there are international schools overseas where, you know, people send their children so that they can get, you know, a quality education, you know, which is important to many folks. And, you know, I've again just had some really fascinating experiences traveling around the countries where I've served and, you know, found people to do fun things with, even though some cities are not always, you know, the hot tourist attraction, you know, you find your spaces. So just as you would, you know, whenever you move to a new city in the U.S. Great. And then, Adam? Sure, so as to the question on daily life and lifestyle. So, serving in Mali, for example, or in Cuba, these are places where there's a large diplomatic community and a civil society NGO type of sector. So it's an easy, as Michelle mentioned, easy fit to jump into them because they're used to having newcomers and people in these difficult environments are often really creative. I find them the most creative folks because they know they want to have a good time when we're not working and they are creative to do so, whether it's art activities, hiking, backpacking, there is always a group for that. But at the same time when I served in Toronto after Havana, I mean, I was just, you know, six hours north of Boston, you can't really tell that I'm an American diplomat and kind of just, you're just part of the community. So that is a different kind of environment where you have to work a little harder to, you know, to find your sports teams or your art activities, but it's just like moving to New York versus Boston. You kind of have to do that legwork. There's different dynamics between working in a consulate versus the embassy in the capital. The consulates are usually smaller and there's less of a large diplomatic community while you're at the embassy, there are more diplomats posted there. So there's the different dynamics in terms of that. When people serve, to be honest, a lot of first tour foreign service officers at state serve on the U.S. Mexico border because we have a lot of consulates there and a lot of assignments. So those are challenging places, but they are often, you know, close to the state so people are able to go home more easily, get, you know, the things that they want a little bit easier in that case. So it depends on where in the world you are. But generally speaking, I think people, you have to, again, as mentioned, you have to be flexible and excited about that challenge of meeting new people and kind of finding your way. I mean, I, when I was in Mali, I picked up rock climbing. I had never climbed on a rock before getting there, but it was a thing people did. So I was able to, you know, I ordered some climbing gear via Amazon. It showed up on some plane and I learned how to rock climb. And that's been a, you know, a passion of mine that I really enjoyed. At the same time, the Department of State does realize you are making sacrifices, working in some challenging places. So they try to make life a little bit easier by supporting and kind of shipping things in from the states, whether it's sometime foods, if you love those chocolate covered pretzels from Peter Joe's. And there are ways to have those sent to you at post, for example, but at the same time, it's kind of cool to find that local bakery in that small village you're working in. And that'd be your next home base. Because that's frankly how you meet new people and make, have really interesting experiences. And when you decide to linger along and, and find that butcher and realize the butcher will come bring to your house any kind of meat you want, and then come to your table and chop it up for you. And you have like a really fun experience, just trying to get, you know, a piece of meat for dinner sometime. So I think that adventure, you have to really want that adventure. And with that said, we do have R and R, so rest and relaxation trips during our assignments. So when I was in Mali, for example, and I think in Havana, we had two R and R trips during our assignment. So that means the department, the US government will fly you back to your home base in the States. And you can take your vacation time before coming back. That's always an opportunity to recharge. So it's while we are on, on duty, so to speak, 24 seven, there is expectation and requirements, frankly, to go back to the States and kind of recoup before you get sent back abroad. So they try to find a work life balance. It's not the best system. And you do get, you do get tired and sometimes feeling like you're burnt out, but there are mechanisms in place, release money in place to be able to pay for the travel back to the States. Great. Great. I guess one of the questions is thinking about, you know, Michelle, you had said that it's up to each person in terms of when they kind of enter the service. We did one on grad schools a couple of weeks ago and people, a lot of people felt like that having some experience before going to grad school made them better able to understand and take advantage of it. I'm wondering if you guys have a perspective on that. You know, Michelle, you said it doesn't matter, but did the experience is outside of AID help you before you kind of became a part of it? Yeah. So it's actually kind of a funny story. When I was in my senior year at Tufts, I took the State Department Foreign Service exam. And anyway, it's, it's, it's a whole story. It was, I had to drive up to Durham, New Hampshire on a very cold November, Saturday morning. And in the days before like ways and Google maps. And anyway, it's a whole long story. But the end of it is I did not pass the exam. And I was kind of like, oh, man, you know, I really wanted to be in the Foreign Service, but I graduated from Tufts and I got the job that I mentioned working for USAID implementing partner, a nonprofit organization on the USAID program. And I ended up discovering that what I was really interested in was international development. And so I got a whole new perspective and ended up deciding, oh, actually, that's what I want to get my master's degree in. And so I'm really glad that I had that work experience to kind of give me some real life experience so that I could then, I feel like make a better informed choice about what I want you to study in graduate school and kind of where I want you to see my career going. I'll just mention that. So I graduated from Tufts, worked a couple of years, and then I applied to get into the Foreign Service. But it took it took a quite a long time. I mean, you have to take a lot of you take written exam essays and oral exam security clearance and get on the list. So it's really slow and unfortunately torturous process. So I had been waiting on the list and I passed all my exams. I set it sitting on the list and it never got a call up. So they said, heck, you know what, I'll just apply to graduate school. And while I was applying for graduate school, I discovered the Pickery program. So the point is there's different ways to get in. And it's a long process and many people don't pass the first time around. I have colleagues that I work with today and on the Syria team who took the written test, I think two times, two or three times before they advanced all the way to the oils and then got accepted. So it's a long process. And these are excellent officers. It's not a, you know, it's not a point that my friend is not qualified or he wasn't qualified yet. So it's, it's a lot of, it's very competitive. But you also, he also had in mind, okay, I'll continue to work for this NGO while I apply or apply to grad school and figure things out from there. So I just, you know, I just the point of you can keep the different ways in, you can keep those in your, in your pocket as you evaluate. Maria. Yeah. So I went to smaller arts college in Maine. I'm from Washington, D.C. And I studied math because I wanted to be an engineer, like in college and high school, just love the pure beauty of a problem and a solution. And you box it and call it a day and the world makes sense. Right. And then like, you enter this complicated world of gray areas and there's no, you know, direct line solution. But I ended up after college working for an insurance company, which was completely out of my beaten path. Anybody in college who knew me would be like, Maria, public service. Like, you know, it can be insurance. And it all, to be honest, it didn't make sense to me either, but I took a leap of faith and I just trusted that, you know, God wanted me in this, this, this job in this moment in this time in life, I'm going to trust my, you know, faith in God. And it actually turned out to be a phenomenal experience. I was there for two years in Boston, working downtown in the back bay area. And essentially what I was doing was applying a little bit of a math skills, but I was a data analyst. And as a result of basically all the skills that I got, you know, I was making, I was writing code. I was writing formulas like no one's business in Excel and making presentations and, you know, helping the bottom line. But the skills though, the skills that I got out of there really helped me in my interviews for the foreign service because I stood out as an applicant who was somebody that had studied a quant, you know, had a very strong quantitative background. And so all of that is to say that I would not worry about trying to carve a path to the foreign service. That's really, it just never ever works like that. There is no, there is no golden path. You don't have to study international affairs to be a foreign service officer. You don't have to study sociology or government to be a foreign service officer. You can study art and be a lawyer. As Michelle mentioned earlier, when we joined A100, A100 is the cohort with which we get inaugurated into the, into the foreign service. And it's not a career where somebody forwards your resume and like you get, you know, an offer throughout the year. No, there's only four cohorts every year. You get an offer letter and you join one, one in three or four of those cohorts. So people in your A100 are the people you're going to remember throughout your career because you have a very intense six-week communal experience with them. And in that cohort, people come from so many backgrounds. This is people's like third, fourth, fifth career. You know, there's people from like, who were top corporate lawyers switching over. There are people from the military and saying, you know, the switching over to state. There were people that were city mayors. And now we're like, it just, it was amazing to see the, the plethora of backgrounds and nobody carved in, you know, thought that this is what they would do. It simply is just a choice that people make later as well. So even if you are just graduating from tests and think about a foreign service, you don't need that master's degree. The only requirement to do in the foreign service is a bachelor's degree. Go take that test. Even if you're 22 joining as a foreign service officer or 42, it's really like no one will judge you for that. Now, will you have different challenges? Will people view you differently? Yeah. That's a different conversation about the culture of the state and the environment that is slowly changing over time. You know, with, with people slowly coming to embrace newer fresher, vibrant ideas. And, and that I've felt myself even as a young officer, kind of running up against the, the bureaucracy that Adam was talking about earlier, which is, you know, you have to get clearance from by God before you can do anything. But there is some flexibility in, and you'll find that with the right people, you'll find that with the right people, you'll find that with the right people, you'll find that with the right supervisors and supporters. You do have enough autonomy to implement ideas. It's challenging. It's not easy. So those were my two points that it doesn't matter what you do after college. You can still find your way back to the foreign service for five, 10 years from now. And if you want to join the foreign service after college, you can do that too. It is not a factor. Great. And then we have a question about a personally unique situation that you have. Yeah. Sorry, I'm going to jump on this one. I have, I have a number of them, but I can offer a couple that I think are kind of disparate, but both incredibly cool. So one is, they're both from Guatemala. So one is as foreign service officers, when a high level official from the US government comes to the country where you're serving, pretty much the entire embassy community is tapped to support that visit. So when I was serving in Guatemala, this was back in 2014. And I mentioned that there was this crisis of a large number of unaccompanied minors traveling to the US border from Central America and the US government said, Hey, we need to do something and figure out what's going on here and how we can help address this. Vice President Biden came down to Guatemala and he was traveling with some minor family members of his. And I was put in charge of entertaining them for the day. And at the end of the day, got a tour of Air Force two and got to meet the vice president himself. So that was incredibly, incredibly rewarding and a really cool experience. And then my other experience also from Guatemala is while I was there, we started an internship program at the mission specifically for Guatemalans of indigenous backgrounds, which have been people who have been historically marginalized and oppressed over hundreds of years. And so one of our indigenous interns, she and her husband were training to be spiritual leaders. And her parents were spiritual leaders at the time. And she invited people who are interested to join a Mayan New Year celebration. And so it took a while, but I finally found the place where it was. And we went and attended this Mayan New Year celebration. And I kind of asked like, Hey, what, what, what is this place? Like, what is this house where we're at? And it turned out to be Rick Avertum and shoes house and Nobel Prize winner. And she was there. And it was just really, I think a unique experience to attend something as such a meaningful ceremony like that, that, you know, as just kind of a passing through American, you know, I never would have gotten to know this person who invited me and, you know, been able to have that kind of window into Guatemalan society. Adam. Sure. I think I'll touch a little bit on, on Maria's current assignment as a concert officer. I think some of those conversations that had interviewing refugees fleeing conflict in all over the world, having probably some of the most powerful stories that stick with me, people who have overcome so much adversity and now are coming to the United States and wanting to come to the States for, for another shot and being able to within the law, finding the ways to, to be supportive. I think part of our jobs are to be advocates. We have our legal system and it's really important to respect that, to respect that, to have a, to have a rule of law process, but there are, there are ways that we can uphold our values and still, and still carry, carry forward the law. As Maria spoke, spoke about this, the presidential proclamation. I remember working on those cases and seeing if, where are their waivers, where are their exemptions, where are their creative solutions to that? And I think that's part of what, I mean, our Tufts education encourages us to think creatively and ask those questions. And some of the more meaningful conversations I had is with those individuals who are, who are coming, trying to come to the States and, and hopefully making those dreams come true. And I think that reminds me, there's a recent book that came out by one of our more decorated Foreign Service officers, Ambassador Bill Burns called him the back channel. And the reason why he calls it the back channels, because most of what us Foreign Service officers do is not in the limelight. We're not at cocktail parties and we're not always, you know, sitting next to the head of state having those conversations. So a lot of the, a lot of things we don't realize how much of an impact they do just by showing up. I mean, I presume just the fact that Michelle came to this nine ritual was pretty special for them to have an American diplomat there. And that means a lot to people just showing up, smiling, listening and putting your best for, for forward. I think really is, is really rewarding because you work a lot of hours and sometimes you don't see the impact that worked. But what's nice about being in the field is that it's more people focused. I think here I'm sitting in Washington working on the security policy, a really complicated United Nations for votes security council working, working with the Russians and Moscow, et cetera, et cetera. Those are big picture of things. But then in the end there are people who are fleeing conflict in Syria to end up in Mario's doorsteps in a line and trying to see if you can help those individuals. And that's, I think that's really, I think that's really rewarding when you think of the, the small impacts you do make even though we're representing a big country and talking about big kind of grand, grand policy and grand strategy ideas. So I think a lot of what we, what's rewarding happens in that, that back channel behind the scenes. Great. Maria. Yeah, I have two stories. As Adam mentioned, counselor stories are the ones that stick with you the most because they're, they're direct, they're direct impact. And you'll often be the person whose name they'll never know. And you don't know what buttons you collect. You don't know what magic you pulled, what memo you wrote, but you changed their life in a way that, that they'll always be grateful for. I think at a few cases, one that I'll always remember as a very poignant one. It was a, as a woman who wanted to go see her, her brother who was dying of cancer. But she had a terrorist hit that of course I couldn't override to issue her visa. And it took of course extra effort to figure out what was wrong. Right. So the part of the difficulty in the concert job and what Adam means by being an advocate and more than just, just being somebody who follows the law is doing that due diligence. And so I remember working with different partners, FBI partners, inter agency folks to figure out why it was that she was getting denied or a hit when all the other data wasn't matching up. Long story short, it ended up being her sister who had a similar name, some background, some misunderstanding, but that's the thing, right? Like if you don't dig into it, you'll never know. And there's some hard ones were obviously like, you know, it would be forthcoming. But I just remember that after, because it was a life that situation time was, was of essence. And after, you know, two weeks, almost a week and a half of just kind of like solely working on this case and putting other work aside and even reaching out to the hospital to verify that the brother was there and the documents and what have you just to cover all our bases and issuing her the passport. Like I'll just, the tears and like how moving it was, like it was just so difficult to not be moved by that experience and know that that this, the, what I just did and what our law and what our country allows us to do as foreign service officers really, really changed that person's life and was able to go to the states and meet or see her brother for what last time. And it reminded me of my own story actually. And the reason that I remind myself every day of why I serve and why I wake up. I myself am an immigrant to the United States. So to be a foreign service officer and a concert service on top of that is full circle, literally a kid you're not 20 years ago. You know, some concert officer at embassy Islamabad in Pakistan took faith of leap in my family and our story and gave us the chance to come to the United States to start a new life. And so seeing the opportunities that have had the experiences that I've had the home that I call home and to be representing the most powerful nation on earth as somebody that looks different and was not born in the United States is something that I never take for granted is something that I remind myself every time I introduce someone to to know that, you know, I am I can either make or break this person's life within the law. So that's that's that was a really poignant experience with the concert section. The other was similar to Michelle's I was doing an internship in Bangkok in the past office public affairs is like the most fun office, by the way, because they have the most money and they're like the people to people. So you're literally out in the field doing like tons of stuff changing the hearts and minds of people. And my boss, because I was an intern is a very supportive boss he wanted me to have cool experiences. And so I got tagged on to a USAID and an agricultural service project. So we went to these fields to all these different forms in rural Thailand, so Northern Thailand. And I got to literally like meet and eat yogurt and drink fresh milk. And I mean, it was just an experience that I had never had in my life, even in the US and even going to Maine and just like that farm experience. And then coming back and and recognizing that like a lot of the local folks that I met, they had never met an American in their life, let alone a Pakistani American. So that was a touching experience for me to showcase our diversity. Okay. And one last question is about, um, cross cone tours or a benefit to applying to one cone versus another in terms of, um, Consulates, I guess, Consulates and embassies. I'll answer that from the state perspective. I think the way the USAID focused on their back stops might be a little bit different than the state. Uh, so I'm a political officer, but I've done economic work. Um, and both my assignments here on the Syria team, I do a little bit of sanctions work, uh, which is very economic focused, but I also do political work. Uh, so you, you do get to do all of the jobs that I speak once you're into the department. Uh, choosing the cone in the beginning. Um, is a, it's both strategic in the sense that there are more people applying to be political officers, a foreign service officers than there are to be management or, um, or public affairs, for example. Uh, so there's, there's differences in terms of that. Uh, but I think you should, you should all at the same time, choose a cone that you want to do, uh, because you are expected to serve in those positions over time. Um, but you can, you can bounce around. And frankly at the end of the day, the state department foreign service off foreign service officer is called a generalist. So, you know, even though I'm a political officer, I have to be able to know how to give press interviews and work on press statements. I need to know how to be able to do, uh, contract management for grants. Uh, you really have to develop all those skills throughout your career. And you do that by choosing jobs that allow you to grow. I mean, as I look at my next assignment, I'm thinking about what do I, what skills I want to develop to become more, um, successful and more attractive as I enter, or seek to enter the foreign service, senior foreign service and God knows how many years, but you think about that as you go forward, but the foreign service wants you to choose different jobs to make you feel well-rounded, but think about strategically how you choose that first cone versus a political or economic or management, or consular, whatever it may be. I'm not sure how, how, how Maria thought about it as she chose her, her cone. Yeah. So I'm a political cone, um, like Adam as well. Um, obviously doing my consular now, I did a past tour in my intro jet. Do what you love, love what you do. It's like my motto. Don't choose a cone for the sake of a, I don't even know what people choose cones based on. Um, but I chose political because I knew that I really enjoyed reporting. I have a journalism background from high school and college. I love telling people's stories. I'm a documentarian and I like, uh, to meet people and report on, on situations. That's not all political officers do, of course. The beauty of being a journalist as, um, Adam described, I don't know if you guys know the difference, but specialists are very, like very, very specialized. Like you are, you know, an office management specialist or an IT specialist or a diplomatic security, like those are very specialized fields. And oftentimes I think you need a lot of years of background in that. Like if you want to be a diplomatic security agent, for example, you better have like law, law enforcement background. Right. So these are people that are doing career switches, but, um, in a very specialized way. But the beauty of generalists is that just because you're a political officer doesn't mean you won't be on camera. Doesn't mean you won't be writing a past release. Doesn't mean you won't be reporting on economic issues or working on a counselor issues that fill a lot. So the, no matter what cone you choose, you will get to experience other skill sets with it. And, and you should do that. Um, the only reason I think the State Department has these five main cones is like Adam said, is we need some sort of way to make sure that our embassies don't fall apart. Right. We need management officers to turn on the lights when you put officers to be able to get to the point where we need public diplomacy officers to, to do outreach. Um, but you're encouraged to be all five at any given time and where that has. And you should do, um, cross tours. Um, but eventually to the cone that you're going to, if somebody sent you that for that reason, that you're happy with it. And you can do corner rectification, which sounds like a medical procedure, but you can rectify your cone and change it. If you're really, really, really didn't want to be a political officer and just love, fell in love with console work, and, and, and, and, and so some of the things are very important to come with, especially in the sense people go, people do. Michelle. Yeah. So you say it functions a little differently as, as Adam mentioned, we don't call them cones. We call them back stops. And, um, there, we have a number of them that are very sectoral focused. Um, you know, for example, we have agriculture backstops environment, natural resource officers, health, education, uh, private enterprise, economists, democracy, And then we also have the support backstab, so like I'm a program officer, which has kind of more of a general overarching view of, you know, what's happening in a mission. We also have controllers, those are financial officers, our management officers, lawyers, contracting officers. So, you know, for folks who are looking, who have, you know, kind of a more specialized sectoral background, you know, they may tend to go for one of those particular sectors. But, you know, we also have a number of missions, you know, may need someone, especially in a smaller mission, where they don't have enough people to run, you know, the democracy and governance programs and the economic growth programs. So they're looking for a foreign service officer who can oversee both sets of programs. So, you know, there is definitely that opportunity to be flexible. I know program officers who have done a tour as a technical officer. One of my former bosses was an economic growth officer, private enterprise officer, who did a tour as a program officer. I know someone who was a program officer who then switched and became a contracting officer. So there is, you know, flexibility and fluidity there. Great. Great. Well, I want to thank you guys for spending so much time with us today and really kind of giving us a lot of insight as the students think about what they want to do in their future. So thank you very much. And we'll hope to see you soon. And so, are you guys, Michelle, you're there for a while and Mario, you're there for a while. Adam, you're thinking about a next move soon or? Right. I have to start bidding, lobbying, looking for a new job at the end of the summer. I'll be in DC on the Sierra team for another year. But after that, we'll figure, we'll see where things shake up. Gotcha. Gotcha. I'm here for another three years or so. Three years. Great. Great. Thank you guys so much again. Thank you. Yeah. Great to see you. Thank you. Great job. Take care. Okay. Bye-bye. Nice to meet you guys. You too.