 I've got six o'clock on that We'll call the committee the whole meeting for this evening to order and start with the roll call Bauman Berg Bonet Doyle graph Manny Montemayor Moody Perez Rainflash Stefan is excused van Akron Vanderwillie Wangenman and Warner Wenninger We have 15 present On that I would ask for approval of the minutes from the February 18th 2004 meeting all those Are there any additions or subtractions to our minutes? Hearing none all those in favor of the motion as stated signify by saying aye Chair votes aye opposed hearing none the minutes stand approved Tonight as we find out it's actually the start of national weights and measures week and in that Matt Livingston from our building inspection department Will be presenting us with a presentation regarding weights and measures in the city shaboying that Can everybody hear me with this or is it okay if I just speak? We'll help the mic Gotta use the mic. Okay We'll start out Weights and Measures 1887 to 2004 for the city of shaboying The reason being The first sealer of weights and measures was appointed by the mayor In 1887 and we've had a continuous sealer of weights and measures since The sealer is a historical title given to the person that Inspects the weights and measures devices for the city Most notable here is Joe Peekert 1924 to 1963 If you can imagine the Things that happened to this country in that span that he was here And of course running up till the present This is a picture of inspectors 1920s 1930s inspecting a gas pump the Test devices that he's using they are very similar to the ones we use today and I will show you pictures of ours here shortly Again checking a fuel oil truck. We still do those inspections today. We've got some different equipment that we'll show you the to do those First we need to take a look at some legal issues on why we do this First of all chapter 98 of wisconsin statutes States that municipal Programs have to be in place in cities that have over 5000 for population Most of the night the largest cities 20 total have a municipal sealer I'm chapter 92 of the wisconsin administrative code was just restructured here in september of last year and adopted and that just Goes into more detail on what we're supposed to inspect as a municipality and also service companies Some regulations regarding them on licensing Chapter 91 selling commodities by weight measure account and chapter 90 of the agriculture trade and consumer protection um addresses Fair packaging and labeling those have to be in place before we can inspect Packages and commodities and of course our local code here chapter 138 Paper trails continued on handbooks that we use these are national institute of standards and technology handbooks 44 130 and 133 And we'll detail those in a little bit here as well And department of agriculture trade and consumer protection policy and procedures manual Typifies a lot of things that we do and policies that they would like in place that may differ from the national This is handbook 44 This is the book that we use Probably the most in our inspections now this book is produced by nest and It's followed by manufacturers of devices inspectors of devices Anybody that that is involved in weighing and measuring has a copy of this book because it again It is the specifications tolerances and technical requirements for weighing and measuring devices now. That's any device whether it be liquid measure or balances or electronic scales anything anything that measures or weighs Handbook 130 130 here is the models of laws and A lot of the municipalities and states have adopted a lot of the Passages in here for their own law Also, they've included now price verification in this book as well The procedure outline and how to do price verification is is the scanner checks Handbook 133 is all the parameters that we use to check packages As far as how far they can be out of tolerance And when we're checking lots it'll there is some some give and take on them and this book explains how all that works And of course the dot cap policies and procedures manual And these additions are updated every year with any new information And just a side note here the book on the left the gray book I have in my office and that is a 1949 edition of handbook 44 The book on the right is a 1959 edition of handbook 133 And of course the top one is our is one of the old code books from the city Now city standards That's calibrated and certified equipment that we use to inspect weighing and measuring devices They're originally issued by the state in In 1914 the state received theirs prior to that from the federal government And were required to have these recertified every two years by the state metrology lab This is an example of some of the weights that were issued in 1914 the bottom three The two pharmacy weightsets and the even the tape measure was issued by the state as a calibrated standard Now we're properly equipped. We're legally able to do to do our inspections We have our NIST handbooks updated. We have our local codes and we have our certified equipment And according to atcp 92 we're going to inspect liquid measuring devices commodities Scales price verification systems timing devices and linear measuring devices This weight set here is a 400 gram weight set that we used to test Small capacity scales and high accuracy scales. This is what you'll typically see in the pharmacies and gems and and the like This is the uh, usually it's called a sealers kit. It's a 30 pound weight set. We use this one the most For small and medium capacity scales Um inside that kit is a fractional weight set the one on the right And the one in the back there is the uh, decimal weight set and used in conjunction with the other weights Those are all two pounds stainless steel cube weights And here they are in uh During an inspection checking a scale the red seal you see on the side of it Is what we use to indicate that we've inspected it and found it correct These two weights here for large capacity scales up up to 10 000 pounds The one on the left is a 50 pound calibrated weight as well We have 20 of those The 25 pound weight we have 11 of those. Those are all calibrated as well These are five gallon serif and test measures They're calibrated as well We've used these predominantly for doing the gas stations This is a also a five gallon test measure in the field. It's known as a j bucket. It's a bottom dump type used on the trailer And this is the trailer that we use to do gas stations. It's a 440 gallon split tank Trailer that allows us to do numerous tests And we'll show you why we need that Um, this is a trailer similar to ours in use in appleton In order to do uh stations this size. This is the quick trip on the south side. There's 52 meters here And if you figure the time if we spend 10 minutes on each meter That's 520 minutes and that's about eight and a half hours of work That trailer enables us to get this thing done in about four hours This is a new install. This is what we're testing. We'll we'll go close up here. This is a wane uh retail motor fuel dispenser Um, what we're testing is these devices inside here. These are the actual meters This is the high octane side. There's two meters here The low octane side there's two meters there And then those meters work in conjunction to produce the mid-grade. This is what they call a blender So there's four meters inside this thing We have to do six tests. However because of the to test the blend function And then here is the electronic calibration when you when you talk about the sealer of weights and measures. This is what we're sealing The lead wire seals you see there once it's been calibrated the plungers are pushed down and then sealed That way we look when we go to our next inspection that our seals are still in place That nobody's tampered with that meter This one looks old and that's because it is this was built in 1951 By uh robinson boiler works in ashua new hampshire. It's a 100 gallon test measure Um, typically they're referred to as a prover This is the meter inside it. It's got a pump off system and this is used to test uh tank trucks This is a modern version of that same thing This is another version of it And this is what we're testing with those if you see these big fuel trucks running around That's what we used to test a 100 gallons at a time The air on these meters can be quite considerable So if you figure a tanker truck that delivers thousands of gallons a day if it's off They can either make a lot of money that day or they can lose a lot. So it's uh, it's important that we test these This is a the red trailer we showed you and the uh green prover. This is a unit manufactured by sarin sarin that Combines both of those units in one trailer. I will get into package checking. This is a Our sceptre electronic balance Very accurate more accurate than the scales that we test Um, this is what we what we call a commodity inspection scale Um, this is uh, it in use in a store Now if you look here the uh, I can tell you that the loaf of bread on there should weigh net weight 0.750 The gross weight as you can see here is 0.646 So we got a little problem there both all of those were sent back And that's another reason it's important that we do check weights Whoever is manufacturing this bread Is isn't putting enough into the into the mix here to to make the weight. So that's why we check these There's just an example Of being nationwide if you look at the scale, it's the same type we have. Uh, this is new hampshire weights and measures doing doing the same thing we are And utilizing the same the same, uh, nest handbooks to do it This is our, uh, glassware set. This is used to test liquid commodities This is a monarch pathfinder um barcode scanner And the reason we use this Um, is to do, uh, price verification tests. Uh, again, this is new hampshire using the same device we have When you have to go into a store and test a hundred items It's easier to just scan the item and what this device does it copies that barcode Then we take the barcode to the checkout and they just scan the barcodes And of course come up with the same result as if you took the actual product up It prevents us from having to take a hundred items in three or four shopping carts up to the checkout And it also enables us to do a a better job of inspecting A variety of products because typically if you have to put everything in a shopping cart You're not going to pick bicycles and large items From a variety store and also in a grocery store frozen items and that we don't want to be taking them up to the checkout and Doing our inspection We have to put those all away when we're done. So it is time consuming. So this is a this is a big time saver There's some discussion here tonight about timing devices. This is an example of a timing device at a car wash This is another timing device That you're paying money for a certain time. This one is incorrect because it doesn't tell you how much time you're getting for your money And that's part of that inspection process as well The latest technology we have is uh manufactured by nova degelstein associates And that's windwam software and that stands for windows weights and measures software And all those handbooks are incorporated into that so that we can do quicker inspections And not have to do all the computations by hand It also stores all the data for all the stores you've ever been to So if we do go to a facility, we'll know what devices were in place last time we were there So that's not to say that somebody is trying to be deceptive, but it does give us a better a better ability to track problems It also enables us to do a better reporting with the state because everything can get emailed electronically in a daily weekly or monthly fashion Instead of now it's done annually. So if there is something that's uh determined to be a problem It'll be identified a lot quicker. We're using this method We take a look at the responsibility factors for weights and measures Approximately 300 million consumers and millions of businesses across the nation Weights and measures regulations impacted four and a half trillion dollars of commercial transactions a little more than half of the gross domestic product And this this was a survey done in 1998. So you can imagine if that was off just a slight bit And this will give you an example of a little error An error of slightly more than one tablespoon per five gallons at the gas pump that equals a change of 125 million dollars annually Have you figured that how little that is? But if it's not in the consumers favor the gas stations or you can make 125 million dollars Or on the other side of that they can lose 125 million dollars annually A recent budget review shows that the annual cost of us weights and measures enforcement is just 50 cents per citizen And that came from a survey done by the national conference on weights and measures Uh, we'll take a look at fees now. We just uh started this year But uh chapter 98 of wisconsin statutes has allowed municipalities to assess fees for weights and measure services since 1983 City of sheboygan had until now elected not to assess fees for services At the time it was the only city with a municipal program that did not assess fees Uh, this is some of the paperwork that we're generating now to put that process into effect And issuing licenses the bottom one, of course, is the actual license that they do receive Now weights and measures through the years Has progressed it it's now more of a consumer protection and business protection And it's done through starting at the local sealer of weights and measures who discusses their findings with the northeast region sealers and inspectors Who in turn discusses that with the state debt cap inspectors and staff who in turn discusses that with the central conference on weights and measures Who in turn discusses that with the national conference numerous business and manufacturer associations Service companies and equipment installers and eventually the national institute of standards and technology And they use that information to produce the handbook 44 130 and 133 And hopefully now you know Who your sealer of weights and measures is Currently i'm the president of the wisconsin weights and measures association And the chairman of the city caucus and now that's all the the member cities that have that have a municipal sealer And i'm also chairman of the liaison committee that communicates with the staff and legislative bodies on issues that affect the municipalities on weights and measures issues And i'll answer any questions And council any questions Hold them in graphs Thank you Only because one was posed to me this past weekend If You're requested if your department is requested to to come and measure something for a company that normally doesn't have Have to be measured Use your services Do you charge them something now? Hold them in mani Thank you How often are certain scales tested for instance gasoline pumps? Scales the supermarket Is that they're done annually The only time we would do them more often is if we determined that there's a compliance problem Or technical issues that affect the uh the scale such as uh Hard use or something like that some that we've uncovered Historically that would indicate that more testing is needed i'm matt i know We do contract with i think the city shiboygan falls for some services that we provide for them Do we do that for anyone else any other communities and is it just gas pumps for checking in shiboygan falls or is that We're no longer doing shiboygan falls. We're not okay. That's annoying. It was last year. I know we had a contract right that contract that contract ran out July 1st of last year. Okay hold them in burg Before when we were talking you were saying about these laundromat dryers net you were thinking of Putting a price on them Now all of those machines normally those big washers and dryers they come all preset by the manufacturers Now when when we have a problem where I manage at shiboygan regency house If we don't think it's going long enough. I call in quality Appliances and they they run a check on there with a wire in that in the door and It's always found out to be true so What is what is the price tag going to be for all these dryers net? Um, that that's a great question. There's been a lot of discussion about timing devices That's something that we typically didn't do in the city of shiboygan Only now we have to because ATCP 92 specifies that we do test timing devices Um, we haven't got that entirely ironed out yet on how we're going to go about that testing And what and what the charge for it? The only thing that we did is we took a Average of what the other cities were charging for those fees and that's what we applied to ours I've heard communication from From a lot of people on things they'd like changed in that so we are reviewing that The devices are able to be changed. We know that We're also in communication with the manufacturer of those devices But more than that to that inspection there are some other factors that are involved such as proper signage in that Um, that a consumer feels confident when they go in there that they're getting what they pay for I would add to that that uh, I have talked to three owners of launder mats in the city today alone and They're aware of a public protection and safety meeting that's coming up next week wednesday And uh, they actually have a communication on a council agenda tonight. That's coming in Two public protection safety. So we'll be discussing that next week wednesday and committee also It's a good issue Alderman Doyle Matt, what's the error rate, you know, just roughly, I know you're new at this and If if there was fraud is it possible for you to detect it or would the businessman just say, oh, we screwed up Are you talking about all anything that we test in general or a specific device, you know, when you go in like to the grocery store do you find everything perfect or 50 things That's all all designed into that process what we do in applying tolerances from the manuals that we uh, we showed If we if we do determine there's a problem, you know, they're going to correct it immediately I mean, that's that's something we look at And that's why we do the testing and that's why we'll continue to do the testing because uh In some cases they may not know they have a problem We discovered somewhere before last a gas station that had a tremendous error And they were losing about 200 gallons of gas a week and that's a lot of money and Of course, they were very happy that we're there on the other side of that meters do go out of out of tolerance and With the tolerances that we apply to it. I mean right at that test. We're going to discover the error Also, if you look at the records, you can see a decline in a meter So you can pretty much tell that the next year you test it's probably going to be out of tolerance Same thing with scales too If you know how much weight is going to cross them and how much they're used you can see a decline in it So that's why that's why we test every year and more often if needed if we do see a rapid decline in something So and and that's what the whole program is about is is determining what's going to go bad and and how long it's going to last Um national council and NIST that's why they investigate all those things to make sure that they are Able to withstand commercial use and that's all we deal with is commercial use And I mean you don't ever end up charging a merchant and saying you're Trying to provide to the customer and so on It it hasn't come to that They're pretty aware. Fortunately in sheboygan here. We've got we've got great business people and uh, they're they're more than happy To see if there's something that's not correct. They want to correct it I haven't had any problems with non-compliance I find it interesting matt that it is a two a two-way street when you talk about that The consumer is protected plus the business owner losing 200 gallons of gas a week and Put a real big dent in your profit. So that's an interesting thing Alderman montemire Oh, thank you, mr. Chairman Matt I have a couple of questions I didn't hear exactly what you said you you are now required to test By whom We've always been required to test there I'm talking about the laundromat the time devices That there was always a requirement to test them. We just typically haven't done it But with it with the advent of ADCP 92 and what it specifies in there that we test We had and and the fact that we went to a fee structure We had to include them because it wasn't fair to other businesses that were paying for other tests To exclude someone that was required by law to to be tested Okay So that's the laundromats and of course we've all gotten calls from the laundromats this week How about the um washers and dryers provided in Oh apartment buildings and nursing homes and motels that's included Um In evaluating those we have to first determine that they are commercial use Um, and that's if someone is putting those out putting them out there to make a profit That that's that would indicate commercial use. So that that would have to be evaluated certainly Okay, and and I don't mean to be a smart aleck, but parking meters Our parking meters. How about those some municipalities do test parking meters There is a provision in the statutes though that excludes Meters utilized by a municipality Such as gas meters water meters parking meters Thank you, ma'am All the men praise Thank you, mr. Chairman. I had a question, but I think you touched on it a little bit. Matt. My question was How do you determine what fee to assess? Say for example laundromats, which is a new a new fee. It's going to be Implemented and obviously as all of our old women have mentioned we've gotten calls from people saying no, no, no It's now we're going to get a wash tax, you know How do you go about determining what fee to access Assess to keep it fair and equitable and so that the impression is not not out there All we're doing is generating money for revenue That's a great question the the fees that we assessed That the fee structure that we put into place Was taken from a 2002 year year 2002 survey that was done by the city caucus and that was all the municipalities that the charge fees submitted to the to the caucus What their fees were and we basically took an average of those so we In that we didn't We didn't want to overstep and we didn't want to undercharge and have to increase them later Um A lot of cities reevaluate theirs on an annual basis and I it's this is all new to us So it's it's it's always a learning process, but uh, we figured it was most beneficial just to do an average Thank you Hold them in many Thank you, mr. Chairman Two questions one Are the assessed fees uniform across the whole city for different businesses and such in number two How about a few comments about the Variety of those fees assessed across the state. We're talking average, but How broad and boldly a field do they go? that If if it's a difficult one to answer It it probably best if we just showed you the fee survey that was done and I have that in my office And uh, if anybody would like a copy of that by all means get a hold of me and and we'll make sure that those are made available the There are so many devices Out there there's literally tens of thousands of different types of weighing and measuring devices So what we did is we broke them down like most cities have and the type of devices and the time it takes to test them That's what it comes down to when uh on some scales that require a high degree of accuracy and very, uh Um Good conditions to test them those of course may charge a bigger fee also, uh Devices that require a lot of equipment and a lot of time require more Um, and that's why the scales were broken up into certain classes Um fuel meters are all basically the same So those were that was just that was straight across the board. So there's no variation between type of devices Um, there there really is no variation As the quantity if you have x amount of meters, it's just multiplied by the by the fee for that type of device meter or device So there's no, uh, it it's it's very fair across the board hold them and burn How big is the staff in weights and measures department and uh, if They would start going with these dryers and things like that would there have to be an increase of personnel The uh, as we showed before the uh in 1887 they hired one weights and measures inspector And the the entire staff you're looking at them Right now when I started it was part time a portion of that time was spent doing housing Um presently, uh, I've been doing more of that But it's it's typically an 80 percent of my time That may require a change because there is obviously more devices and we're required to do more testing of different devices So well it'll work out Osmond Ryan's life actually that was my question. Um in my unit, there's one washer one dryer for um, well actually the dryer is the timing device for, um Eight units and there's several hundred units in my area. How long does it take to do A dryer a timing how much is that going to cost me as a user of that to divide that annual cost up to just me and Seven other residents and are you able to have time to test them all once a year? That's something that like I said, we're we're evaluating. It's new to us and Unbeknownst us it's created the most controversy and the most communication which is good We want to know what's out there, but uh, I would expect before the end of summer here We should have a good handle on how many devices are out there and which ones are in fact commercial and which ones are going to be testing They're that you brought up a good point that in that it is time consuming And we want to balance the time it takes to do them And the benefits to the community. That's very important Any other question from the council All right, all right if you want to use the microphone you Could you explain to us how if a consumer goes in a grocery store how what you do protects that consumer Maybe just some examples Um, one one of the examples you just saw on the loaf of bread that it was short weight Um, typically when we do commodities testing, we're testing anything that's a packaged commodity And that's anything that's produced anywhere in the world it comes into this country. It's got to have a weight declaration on it Um, so that's what we're testing But the focus and municipalities and in my focus is on stuff that's packaged locally because I think that's what it may have The biggest effect We want to first make sure that the scales that they're testing that they're doing they're weighing on are accurate And secondly that they're putting an accurate quantity in there and that they're taking tear weights on That's some of the biggest errors we see is that they forget to take tear weight off You shouldn't pay if you're buying a steak at 7.99 a pound you should be paying 7.99 a pound for styrofoam and plastic So those are those are issues that we look at so that's what protects a consumer In that they're going to get an accurate weight weighing device That's weighing their product and that we're testing it to make sure that it stays accurate And you brought up a good point too on the price verification. That does the same thing That we're checking stores to make sure that their systems are kept accurate When they have price changes and that sometimes they forget Most of them have programs in place to to prohibit that or to at least reduce it but We do that testing as well and that's that's what protects the consumer Any further questions from the council? I guess Matt one thing you mentioned something about state requirements and state reports once a year How much of your time do you spend on that? Does this new software Help you get to that point? The the Reporting requirements are some that we do annually and Typically that's all loaded on the on the city computer the s400 when we do inspections we load that data in so it's continually going in So it's just it's no different than you know taking permits or anything that's constantly updated So at the end of the year we have to just check that all our data is in We have to package it up and send it to them with the new windwam software Everything can be downloaded daily if you want and it's done electronically So it's it's a savings on paper It's a it's a savings on labor too because we don't have to maintain the system all year and make sure everything gets entered When the inspection is done the data is already in here And once this is hooked up I can shoot it down to state electronically Okay, they they're requiring more reporting especially on a lot of the commodities checks and to get a quicker handle on Things that have gotten out of tolerance such as fuel meters So they they appreciate it or I guess they have they have a desire to have that done quicker and In that we reported on the devices we inspected before now we're going to be reporting There's a seven or a five year plan to get that all in place for reporting On all the inspections that we do and all the results So there will be more stuff to report That'll make it easier for us to do that way. We don't spend a lot of time Building that database Don't affect there's a certain amount of state mandate In the program other than us protecting the consumers and business Absolutely All of them in price. Thank you. Mr. Chairman. Just final comment Matt if you would I would ask that To the extent that you possibly can Try to be as inclusive as you possibly can with these Laundromat owners because this has potential of becoming a hot potato. I can see it already It would Create a problem where there probably isn't one and I think the more inclusive you are as far as input and commentary And so forth I think people will appreciate that because I can see you're obviously very knowledgeable about that They need to know that too. They need to know that Matt lives than they're doing a good good thing for this community And then it all come back to to benefit the community and whole as a whole So I would ask that if if you were able to it and be as inclusive as you possibly can with the community Laundromat owners. Thank you And I did ask matt that question. I guess every owner of a laundromat in the city was notified back in June, did you say it was or June is when the ordinance was published to go to fees and we really didn't hear much from them Until they got the letters that it was it was coming up And and that was a that was a great point too that they did respond and There there was one of them that provided me with a lot of information I'm still going to meet with him and I go over some of the stuff because they're going to show show things that I don't know And so that is good that they've come forward and and have done it the right way They've they've gotten together with their with the other members And are going to bring it forward. So it's a good learning experience for both of us All the money Matt, do you have anything to do with restaurants and portion sizes? An example I want to give you is one time my husband. I stopped at Dairy Queen at Plymouth. I asked for a baby cone It was piled that high I mean the next clerk might have given me a baby cone that was maybe piled that high if I took a Nutrition chart of Dairy Queen products and I wanted to look up how much like calories or carbohydrate grams a baby cone had You couldn't really determine that because two different clerks would give you two different sizes That uh That falls under the selling commodities by weight measure account In that type of uh a serving that's what they call a ready-to-eat food And there's no weight declaration on it. So that that's something that we can't Enforce logically. There's there's no means to to say that it has to weigh this or has to weigh that And that's why that before we test anything it has to have a legal weight declaration on it. It has to be property package in that That's something I guess I would take up with the with the server and that's that's no different than Fish portions at a restaurant or anything, but I mean that's all ready to eat foods And that's a whole different different ballgame there by the same token like almost any chain restaurant You'll be able to get a nutrition chart and there has to be a certain weight for that certain item To give you the nutritional values That's a good point and that's those nutrition charts are based on a certain size of that server And that's that's a good point. Unfortunately. It's not something that we can we can enforce Unless it is a prepackaged commodity There's no one that does enforce that I assume Um I wouldn't go so far as to say that that's probably something statewide debt cap would probably look into Okay, thank you Counsel any further questions almost First I'd just like to thank matt matt livingston and the building inspection department Wait some measures department. He's actually part of both all of one and part of another Further presentation that I thought was very interesting and actually quite timely with some of the issues we're going to be talking about in the next few weeks I'm sorry We're not open to the floor But I'd have a motion to adjourn Do you open the floor that's counsel All in favor of opening the floor Turbo tie polls turn it on you may speak How are you all that's uh example of the loaf of bread, okay that that you showed when you slide there now This was underweight now that If the store doesn't have its own bakery And it's distributed to the store And you gig this for this Underweight thing Who gets a violation the grocery store? or the distributor And then if this violation happens more than do you follow up on these violations the in that Example that we gave you there that product was taken off sale And anytime we find something that's short weight. We immediately remove it from sale We'll check it again Because we give them that report when we're done and it explains you know that it is short weight Typically that those are taken care of rapidly Um only because they they can't sell it and if they do they do put it back out. Well, then of course, it's a violation We we can cite them for it, but it really doesn't solve the problem When we give it back to the store If it wasn't packaged there the store will immediately give it back to their supplier So it does it does make its way back rather rapidly Um, I there was an example of that with mushrooms that I did find that were short weight And within a half an hour I was talking to the packer in pennsylvania So it does things like that do happen rapidly and in in that industry People do respond quickly to it because it is you know, they want to be correct I understand. Thank you. It will it will go right down the line. Thank you You get to do it all yourself. That's the main thing. So all those in favor of adjournment So folks I stand adjourned