 Transitional Justice here on a given Monday, I'm Jay Fidel, this is ThinkTech, and we have a report of news that is very important and very current, and it is the coup in Khartoum, the coup in Sudan where the military took over the government. This is very important, especially if you have the fact that we've been talking about Sudan and the possibility of a coup and the possibility of rotating the government between the military and the civilian representative government in Sudan with Mutasim Ali, Mutasim is Sudanese. He's here in the United States right now, but he is following this and he tells me that with the news in Khartoum he hasn't slept all night. So Mutasim, what is going on there? What is going on? Thank you, thank you Jay for having me on the show. And I think this is a very, you know, critical moment in Sudan's history. This last night, actually early this morning, the military leaders sort of began resting the civilian leaders and taking over the power in a very unfortunate setback to Sudan's revolution. And at this point, Prime Minister Dr. Abdullah Hamdok is taken to an unknown place. Many other ministers were detained and protesters were shot. There were three protesters at least at this point were killed and more than 140 people injured. At this point, thousands of Sudanese are on the streets protesting to protect their revolution. Wow, we talked about this possibility the last time we were on the show and I was fascinated. I told you I was fascinated with the notion that there would be an agreement by which the power in the government rotated between the military and the civilian. But in our discussion with Tassim, it came clear that when you when you do that and you give the power initially to the military, they will take every opportunity to undermine the civilian government, so that when the civilian government is supposed to, you know, take its turn in the rotation, it won't be able to do that. And gee whiz that's exactly what has happened here, hasn't it. Absolutely. This is for many observers who continue to follow the situation in Sudan. This move from the military is very much expected. They have planned for it. And from the very beginning, they did not seem interested in transferring power to civilians. There were many reasons to as to why they were, you know, they were not prepared to handle power to civilians. Number one, most of them. And I was speaking of the head of the military council. And in addition to the head to his deputy, who was the commander of militia and militia named genjewit that is involved in serious human rights violations in Darfur particularly, but definitely also in other areas in Sudan and so there are somehow, you know, either perpetrators are complicit with, you know, with human rights. Serious human rights violations in Sudan. Most recently, you know, I don't know if we spoke last time about a massacre in capital cartoon that was in June 3 2019, where hundreds of protesters were killed and dumped into River Nile. Others were detained, rape, kidnapping, right, and those that atrocity and the massacre was committed by the same individuals that now, you know, conducted the coup. So they, they fear accountability, they fear, you know, prosecution, you know, if the power is transferred to the civilian leaders. And so they will do everything, everything in their power to undermine any democratic transition in Sudan. And it sounds like they'll do anything in their power to stay in power. Arresting the, and making them disappear the members of the civilian government, the prime minister. That's going to be hard to fix. And I'm sure that the civilian government is right now it's in, you know, it's in disarray. It's not like you could snap your fingers and they would come back and provide management of the country they have been torn up here in this coup. So, why, why do these military people, why do they want to do this what motivates them. What's in it for them. And why don't they recognize the need to serve the people of Sudan. You know, interestingly enough, the military leaders right now argue that the coup is actually they do not call this as a coup. They call this as, you know, turning, given the, you know, achieving Sudanese people's interest. They continue to claim that the Sudanese revolution was hijacked by a few political parties, and it is the military's role to take that, you know, to take the power back to the Sudanese people. So basically they do not call this as revolution. Again, as I said earlier that they plan for this for months by creating events such as in eastern Sudan by creating some security issues, whether that be in Khartoum or other in, in peripheries. And the point was to say that the civilian government was unable to, number one, ensure that achieve Sudanese people's interest providing basic needs food, fuel, you know, you know, lower the inflation, and so on. And so they sort of, you know, created a situation where they can now they explain that the civilian government failed to deliver, and it is the military's responsibility to take over at this point. And so what they're trying to do now is to number one, declared the state of state of emergency. And number two, they dissolve the cabinet, basically we have no civilian government, and three, they are going to establish a constitutional court in the next couple of weeks as they said, they're going to establish a legislature also again the next couple of weeks. And the idea is to undermine the civilian leaders so basically they will pick people that are, you know, sort of subject to their decision they're bound by what the military would have to say. And so basically is, is a military coup in the making. And so this is really very unfortunate, but again, to your question as to why are they doing this what really incentivize them to take such a, you know, cool, and a cool step. I think the main goal is to avoid accountability. These guys involved in serious crimes, serious crimes and some crimes amount to war crimes and crimes against humanity. This is in Darfur, in South Kudufan and Bologna, the two areas as we speak about all the time, and even in Khartoum, the capital of Sudan. And so they fear accountability and that's why they, the only way to protect themselves is to remain in power, and they can do everything possible to remain in power. Well, they have the guns. I mean it's not like anyone else has the guns they you know when you, when you have a say a protest and I read this morning in the Washington Post that in the protest they just shoot people. And then the protest can't be sustained that way because people are getting shot at the protest. So if you have the guns, you can control the streets it doesn't take long. And I guess that's what they're doing. So, so they have guns, they have money, and yes, they are brutal, they're ruthless, and they are committing really, they're killing protesters right. And so they would definitely continue to use, you know, force to oppress people. But again, the Sudanese people demonstrated that they would not accept military rule whatsoever. And they are going to utilize every peaceful measure to end the military rule. They have been successful to remove one of the long Africa's longest dictators, former president of Sudan, Omar Bashir, and they believe that they can also remove the junta in Sudan today. And that's why they're on the streets, they're facing life ammunitions, right, they are being held on daily basis, they're being injured, they're being attacked and detained, but they are determined to continue protesting in a peaceful manner to reclaim the civilian leadership. So Bashir, now Bashir has been charged with atrocities and war crimes. He was in fact removed, but he has a relationship, if you will, with with the junta right now. And they have in fact protected him, haven't they. So what what is the what is the interplay between Bashir and this military government. So, some people suggest that, you know, the junta as the acting to protect Bashir and the elements of the former regime in fact they are, you know, they're part of the for the Bashir regime they were part of the Bashir regime. So somehow they're protecting Bashir and so Bashir now for more than two years in the custody of the Sudanese government, yet he's not being tried for the atrocities that he committed. He's not being extradited to the ICC and the military guys have not even prepared and interested to extradite Bashir to the ICC. And so sort of shielding Bashir from, you know, from prosecution. But at the same time, I think, because the, the, the same military leaders removed Bashir from power, this is somehow cool again. And so, you know, they, they, as much as I would like to, you know, to protect Bashir and prevent him from being extradited to the ICC, if Bashir is back to power, the first people to be, you know, in danger are these military leaders. And so they're not really sure about what they are doing. They, they are, this is like a suicidal as some experts suggest this is a suicidal, you know, step that they have taken, and they'll have to, they'll have to pay a price sooner or later. But it might be later because their principal objective right now is to stay in power for as long as they possibly can. So, so I think this might take some time. And, and yes, I would have to agree with you that I'm not sure if they are prepared to, you know, to give up the power at this point. But certainly the, the Sudanese people are determined that they will not be back to their homes until they, you know, they completely claim a civilian leadership and there will be no power sharing between the military and civilian leaders. This would be a better idea wouldn't it we, we have found that rotating between civilian and military wasn't going to work and hasn't worked and won't work. And so you have to have the civilian government to supervise the military, the military must respond. And, you know, the military must be subordinate to the civilian government but it sounds like that's a long way from here. So this is a very long way to go. And I think when I mentioned that this is, you know, the coup that we have today was sort of, you know, was expected. And the reason why, you know, people like myself and other experts say this is an expected step was because of the power sharing deal. You know, the mistake from the very beginning was to make a power deal power sharing deal with the military guys people who are, you know, perpetrators of serious human rights violations. And I think as much as terrible and heartbreaking to see the military taking, taking over the power. I think this could be an opportunity for Sudanese people to come together to unite and make sure that there will be no more power share deal between the military and civilian leaders. There is only one way, and that is a complete and total civilian leadership and military must be subject to civilian orders. So how many people live in cartoon what's the population of cartoon. You know, some of the data say that there are more than 12 million people in cartoon. And of course, you know, people can, you know, continue to come back and forth from from and to the cartoon, because it was a capital city. And why, you know, the value of the people in cartoon would make a difference people can put this and why in other states in peripheries. It is important to do so. But I think it is powerful and game changing when they do so in cartoon. So how many people live in what's the population of Sudan as a whole. I think the latest data will from 1987. And, and before the referendum before the separation of the South Sudan. There were about 49 million people and today, you know, even though there is, you know, no actual data but people say that they are about 30 3839 million people in Sudan today. There's an organized group of a political party of front. Some organization among the civilians, you know, among the people who who can speak for the people who can counter veil on the military. So, you know, they, they used to be a unified civilian leadership that, you know, would lead protest and direct Sudanese people. Today, things are a little blurry. People, you know, there are some, some of the committees in the neighborhoods which is a very good thing. The citizens committee, they are very well organized in terms of, you know, from, from the bottom up, but then there is no unified leadership on the top but from the neighborhoods and villages and small cities and all that they are very organized. There are some committees that are able to wallet and, you know, and put test and coordinate very, very well. But there is lack of unified leadership across the country that will, you know, get a sponsor and if in case there's a negotiation to transform power. So, you know, this doesn't happen in a vacuum. In fact, it has a certain amount of international notoriety because of the power sharing agreement in the first place, and then this very significant coup in the second place and so it's not happening in a vacuum and you have the countries around the countries, maybe not so close but interested in what happens in Sudan and, and you have the international community, and they are reacting. Some are taking more affirmative steps than that. I wonder if you could talk about how that is happening. This is the same day this will happen today. What kind of reaction from the neighbors, what kind of reaction from the friends the enemies of Sudan. What kind of reaction from the global powers. So far, there is really very encouraging international support to the democratic transition, and there is a unifying message, primarily from the United Nations, from the United States of America, United Kingdom, Germany, Norway, France, and many other European countries that they support the transitional government, and they are the military to back off and to immediately release Prime Minister and other political detainees. I think that that's a very strong and good message. And in fact, America just, you know, sort of, they express concern over the situation, and that they will with halt, if the military, of course did not release the Prime Minister and the other ministers that would release the 700 million dollars that were initially approved by the by Congress to support the democratic transition in Sudan. This is a very encouraging support and I think there's need, there's more need to be done. In terms of regional organizations, the African Union actually called for emergency meeting, and there are more likely to suspend Sudan's membership to the African Union. This is a very good step again. Ethiopia, on the other hand, our neighbor from the Eastern part also expressed concern about the situation and supported the democratic transition in Sudan. Whereas we haven't heard from Saudi Arabia, we haven't heard from United Arab Emirates, and we haven't heard from Israel yet, the country that Sudan, you know, began to normalize with. And this raises a little concern that they may sort of support the military guys to run the country. This is, you know, again, is yet to be confirmed, but again, I think this is a little more than a day now. And no condemnation from any of them, I think that's very concerning. So whether they support or, you know, the civilian government or, or don't. And whether United States turns over that 700 million dollars or doesn't. Does that have any profound effect on on the power that the military has taken. I mean, for example, if they, if the United States didn't give them the 700 million dollars. Would that change things dramatically. If they did or didn't do that. As you mentioned earlier the military has its own resources, and it may not be all that important, whether it gets the 700 million or not. Yeah, will it be. You're totally right from the past experiences I'm speaking of from the period of the former regime of Omar al-Bashir. I, you know, I hate to say this but I do not think that withholding AIDS or funds to Sudan will change anything on the ground, it will just make it harder for the Sudanese people, right. Because in the end, as I said, the military has its resources, and they have their international relations. I didn't want to mention name countries but they have relationships, they export gold, they export, you know, oil and other, you know, animal resources and all of that. And so I think there are, you know, the Sudanese people definitely be affected by this. But again, I think it is an important move. I think it is a strong message to send. The Sudanese people are suffering anyway. And I think Sudanese people may not object to this move by, you know, withholding funds to Sudan at this point. I think that fund was meant to support the democratic transition, but if we have the coup right now, then there is no point of transferring funds because there's no democratic transition anyway. I think we have the experience of the form of a share, as I said, you know, they've been sanctions sanctioned and they've been cut off from the, you know, from the world, and yet he was able to, but she was able to be empowered for nearly 30 years. And so I do not think that this will make a big of a change but I think a strong message to send to the military guys that there is a good need for democratic transition. Oh yeah, but nobody has said they're going to take affirmative action. Nobody has said they were going to send troops in, for example, nobody has said they were going to arm the civilians to effectively conduct a revolution against the military. Has anybody stepped in to actively support the civilians and the people of Sudan in this, or are they letting it happen as it will? Nobody actively moved to support the civilians in their struggle, and I do not think that that that is also something that is likely to happen. And I also believe that the Sudanese people may not want to see that because they believe that the only way to defeat the junta is through peaceful protest. They were able to do that with a Bashir and they are sure that they can do this with the military because these guys are powerful, they have money, they have guns, and so you cannot defeat them by guns and all of that. So the only way to defeat them is to continue peaceful protest. That's the strongest way to defeat them. Now the labor associations, organizations, civil groups and civil society organizations call for civil disobedience across the country. And that would be an effective tool to, you know, to make it difficult for the military to run the country, and hopefully that will bring them to an end. You know, in that part of Africa, there's always a possibility that terrorist organizations will see this as opportunistic. Is that possible? Do you think that terror organizations will see this as an opportunity and expand their presence in Sudan? The answer is definitely yes. As we know, terror organizations always tend to invest in a fragile political and security situations. And I think the situation in Sudan is very encouraging and very inviting, right? But I think if that happens, that would not only be a threat to Sudanese people themselves alone but also the international community, and it would definitely be a threat to the junta. And so it is a, you know, alarming situation. People will have to watch that closely. But hopefully the people of Sudan will be able to reclaim the civilian leadership before everything, you know, sort of, you know, everything turns to unknown. So, you know, what do you think that the, we call it the European powers in the United States, all the big international powers ought to do here? I mean, you mentioned sanctions. I'd be interested in knowing what sort of sanctions you feel would be appropriate. What kind of action would be appropriate in order to recreate a civilian government here? And for most, they need to be a support to human rights defenders to the Sudanese people who are protesting. So these people need basic things like SIM cards, right? Like, you know, medicines or, you know, basic things to, you know, to continue, you know, civil uprising, right? This is a peaceful, these are peaceful protests. And so these are really simple things to provide. This is number one. Number two, I think, for the international community to sanction, right? All the members of the military government right now, including the head of the military council, the POD and all the members of the council. We need to be sanctioned individually. And I think that will limit their movement. That will sort of, you know, put them under pressure. Of course, coupled with the civil unrest, I think that will likely end to, you know, handing over the power to the civilians. In addition, I think, you know, the moves like withholding AIDS to Sudan at this point sends a strong message to the leaders of the junta. And withholding AIDS from them from America should be from World Bank as well. I think that would be very encouraging. And I think the regional organization like African Union should use all the diplomatic pressure to pressure the junta to release Prime Minister, and immediately hand over the power to civilians. So the pressure would be all of these organizations, countries and the like would be putting pressure on the on the military in Sudan to step down and turn the power over to a civilian government. And be out of the picture or at least be subject to that civilian government. That's what everybody would be asking. Yeah. Absolutely. So this would be the main demand. And if you remember last time we spoke about, you know, of course, handing over power to the civilians is a very important step. But I think the most important thing is to restructure the military institution so that the military will no longer, you know, sort of need a military code, there should be no military codes in Sudan once and for all. And that can only happen through restructuring the military institution. And so it is important to have number one to hand over power to civilians. But I think it is even more crucial to, you know, to restructure the military institution. Yeah. So what, what do you, what do you think is going to happen here. Don't be pessimistic, don't be optimistic, be realistic. What do you think how this is going to unfold we're here on day one. Things are still, you know, happening. I'm sure the media as in the rest of the world, the media in Sudan is covering this to the extent they're not they're not being censored by the military. I don't know what will happen with you. Do you have any ideas about how it will unfold unfold. Unfortunately, I would have to be pessimistic out of the mystic at the same time, but the mystic in a sense that, you know, I fear that more, you know, people will be called protesters will be, you know, called and I think we began to see that already from from today. That will continue as people continue to protest. This is, you know, the pessimistic side of it. I think the optimistic of it is that the civilians will not back off. They will continue to peacefully protest the Sudanese people are very creative in terms of the ways of protesting I think, you know, revolution became part of their, you know, daily life is, you know, reflected in music reflected in anything in any part of their life and so and so I think that's very encouraging and the determination in the face of, you know, brutal militia and the army. I think that's incredible is something to celebrate and I have no doubt that, you know, they will be able to to claim victory. I mean, they would claim the civilian leadership total civilian leadership and would begin the democratic transition. One last question which I said we're almost out of time and, and that is this, again, nothing happens in a vacuum here. You mentioned that, you know, what we have right now is, is a fragile arrangement of fragile situation and it was fragile before to when they made that agreement. But everybody is watching. Everybody in the rest of Africa is watching, for example, and there are other fragile governments elsewhere in Africa. So my question to you is, how does this affect them. How does this affect other countries who may have the possibility of the same kind of military coup going forward. What does this do for for all of Africa, as, as, as a, as a group of nations that are watching every member of Africa. That's a very good question. There are a couple of things number one is that it is, you know, for sure for many African countries who are watching what is happening in Sudan today would be very discouraged. Right. So the new people bravely fought for a civilian leadership and they were nearly successful. And all of a sudden, you know, when the time sort of, you know, came to hand over power to civilians. The military guys sort of, you know, took over the power. And I think this is very discouraging for many people who aspire for democracy for freedom, and for peace. This is on the other hand, you know, I think the people of Africa should be inspired by the determination of the Sudanese people, the Sudanese people, as much as frustrated about the takeover of power by the military. They were determined that this is what this was expected, and they are willing to fight to a nail that until they claim their civilian leadership until, you know, they achieve their gold freedom justice and peace this is what they call for, and they continue to protest in the face of, you know, brutal, brutal militia and military. And so I think that should be inspiring. And I have no doubt that the Sudanese people will win this battle. And it goes beyond Sudan. It's symbolic. And of course, we're watching it, you're watching it very intensely, at the point of, you know, being riveted to it as a Sudanese person. But the whole world is watching and it will have an effect on all of us somehow. So we'd like to talk to you again about it with Tassim. Thank you very much for reporting to us today. Tassim, I appreciate it. Thank you for the opportunity. Aloha. Thank you.