 I'll see you a little later. Thanks, Athena. Good evening. Seeing that we have a quorum and attendance. I'm calling the November 19th, 2020 meeting of the town, service and outreach committee to order. At. 432 ish. Governor Baker's March 12th, 2020 order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law. I'm going to quickly call on each member of the committee by name to confirm that you can hear me and we can hear you. Alyssa Brewer. Present. Darcy Duman. Present. Dorothy Pan. Present. Evan Ross. Present. George Ryan. Present. Okay. Those assisting the meeting will be monitoring committee member connections. And if necessary, we'll pause the meeting until you're ready. We request that everyone be patient with the process. George is helping with the screen sharing today. So public comment. Does not appear that there's any public here. So. So we will ask again at the end of the meeting. So I propose rearranging the agenda substantially because of the fact that the town manager is not going to get here until 530. And so I am. Proposing. So I'm going to move on to the next item. Since we need him for the discussion of the revisions of the public way policy and to look at his recommended committee appointments. I mean, we don't really need him, but it's nice if we do have him. Also, we had planned to hear from the sponsors of the surveillance technology by a lot tonight. Just in case you need nobody, nobody is. Well, nobody's watching. So I'm going to move on to the next item. So we're on the possibility of the HRC taking on the role of the advisory committee originally written into the Biola proposal, but the HRC is actually discussing it tonight. So it made sense to put off that discussion until. Another meeting or possibly two. So we had three items referred to TSO at the town council meeting on Monday. And the council meeting. The SUFA sign proposal referral in the town council public way policy revision proposal, both need recommendations from this committee by December 7th. Which means we need to discuss them. Tonight. We have to decide them by either tonight or our next meeting on. December 1st. And the third topic that was referred was the North Commons proposal which needs a recommendation was in 90 days. So because of the time crunch. We've also delayed the brief introduction about a proposal for a townwide residential parking policy, which Dorothy and George we're going to present tonight. So we're going to put the delay that until a later meeting. So, I hope everybody is good with all of this. So what I'm proposing is that we do the suffocings first. And the public way policy revision proposal after the town manager gets back and that if we have extra time before he gets here. We look at our work plan and look at our minutes etc etc and get them done on this hour. And then we'll have time for the public way policy when he gets here and if we have time the appointments. And if we don't have time for the appointments we can do them at the next meeting because it will still be before the December 7 town council meeting and we will have the flexibility to go over if we have to. But we don't have the flexibility at this meeting to go over. Time that is because we have our town council public forum on the budget at 630. So here I'm taking up a lot of time just by talking so. Does that sound reasonable. Good. So, I asked for feedback. So we're going to start with the super signs. I asked for feedback from all counselors on the sign proposal for tonight's meeting and receive feedback from the finance committee and from just one counselor. I asked for a later deadline to submit the counselor comments on the public way policy, but I figure we can just get our comments and questions in tonight. And that will give us time to look at their comments on December 3. That's my proposal. So we have staff here Brianna sun red is here tonight to talk about the super sign issue. We have in our packet the answers that she provided that the finance committee submitted, which is in the packet. So, I was going to suggest that Brianna you give a just a brief summary again for purposes of anybody watching this meeting in the future, so that they know what we're talking about. And then my thought was that we could go over the, any remaining financial questions. Well actually I thought first we should look, since we do have a review process that we haven't mentioned in a really long time that we should just go through the questions in the review in our review process just to make sure we've covered everything. So let's talk about the financial questions and then take questions from you about the financial issues, and then take questions about any other area like placement aesthetics, whatever. Okay, so Brianna, could you give us a brief summary and we do have the slide deck if you want to show any of those again, any of those slides. Thank you Councillor Dumont I'm happy to do that I do have the slides pulled up on my screen as well so if it's easier I'm happy to share my screen and do the overview and then we can take it to the next step that you guys want to. And I don't think we probably need to go through the whole thing that we did on Monday. You know, brief, brief overview. Why don't I pop up the picture of the signs rendered in Amherst and I'll just use that as a jumping off point to talk about the, the other elements if that makes sense if give me one moment to share my screen and then I can launch into that. Can everyone able to see my screen which should be. Let's get back to the page here. This is a rendering a simple rendering of a potential look for the science can everyone see that. So what we're looking at right now are the proposed Sufa solar powered communication and information science. We are proposing three of them coming to the downtown Amherst area as a pilot project. The purpose of the sign, you'll see on the left hand side is an ink screen that can provide timely information updates and emergency communications to people passing by in the downtown area visiting the town, living in the town or whatever their purpose might be. We will have information such as transit weather events or any emergency communications that we need to share out as part of that front display on the left on the right hand side you see a sample mock up of what the back of the sign would look like, borrowing from our way finding designs and style guide that is currently being worked on for science coming online in the spring of 2021. The other element of the project our solar power charging cores, which I will also bring up a picture of right here you see this contraption with a solar panel on the top. The other portion of the project is to install three solar power charging stations in the downtown area as well at key locations of key high traffic areas or transit areas in order to allow community members and members of the public to charge their devices while they're visiting our town and this is especially poignant right now with public buildings. Being closed for the most part in large part. So, whereas some community members might have used the library to access power sources or to access the internet, they'd be able to charge their devices in three spots throughout the downtown area. And we are proposing this pot projects with the with a shorter timeline and turn around the normal because it is a cares eligible project. It will be funded by through cares funds for the first year and then because it's a pilot project we will reevaluate the success of the signs as we close that pilot year. Okay, so I'm going to stop sharing my screen. And hopefully respond to any questions at this point or prompts for the next asset that you'd like to see. Yeah, I would just like to run through the the questions that we usually ask at our preliminary presentation just to make sure that we have them covered and just to make sure no counselors want any further. Answers about those before we get, and then I would just hope that George could pull up the financial questions and answers after that. But the questions that we ask in our preliminary presentation. Finally, it are. Who are the sponsors, how and when the measure came to the committee, how the measure relates specifically to the committee charge purpose of TSA review the projected timeline for review. Information knowledge and background information the sponsors have provided, including input from relevant town staff input from town stakeholders, relevant town policies plans goals or regulations that are pertinent, and best practices and other communities. I just ask if there is anything there that the other counselors are feel like we need to dig into, or whether we're okay to just go forward with the financial questions. And let me see, I can't see your hands. Dorothy. I had originally raised it for some another point but your questions did prompt this to mind. We're told this is a woman owned Massachusetts based company, but some of my thoughts, particularly after reading through today's answers began to really think about data, who has the data, who controls the data, and what are they going to do with it. And it's not the town of Amherst we've been told no we will not control the data so if the phone I mean I totally agree phone chargers yes but part of my brain is saying, if we need them and we want them we should pay for them ourselves as a town of Amherst. And then we could control we would say we're not selling your data, we're not sucking out your phones we're not doing any of those things, because I think we will all agree we need public charging stations. But I'm not sure about some of the other aspects because it's really great to get something free, and to be told you don't have to really do much work with it. My question is, okay, why do they want it it's like Facebook it's free, but it isn't, and it's using our data and doing all kinds of things. So that's really my question is, how did this come to us. And I can see why cares act would pay for charging stations but I don't see how cares act really relates to a way for finding signs I find that frivolous. So my really question is how did this come to us and more about the company, and what they plan to do with the data. I can't believe you're not going to do something with it. May, may I respond. Yes. There is no data that's collected. Yeah, I'll start with the charging stations there's there's no data or data collected as part of the charging stations. We will own them outright as part of this procurement and this this contract so whether or not we decide to keep the signs will not impact the fact that we will own the charging course outright. And I think you might when we get to the financial questions that's mentioned a few times. As far as the signs being justified for cares act. Basically the way finding element is a bonus because it's the back of the information screen. So that's kind of a bonus for us and the, it's that we're flexible in terms of what we can have on the back of that we could have public health. And rather than a way finding sign, but it was justified through cares funding for the signs because it is another way for us to provide timely informational and communications emergency updates, particularly to populations who might be digitally unbanked in our community. Those those who don't have access to internet and or devices and other fashions. And that is the key component of why it would be cares eligible, because we would be using it to update on COVID-19 updates for the town, provide any updated mask mandates or any other emerging information that we need to share with the public so it adds another, another avenue or another channel and our kind of communications toolkit. And there is there is no data that or data that's collected from the sign it. So there's nothing that's retained no personally identifying information no cameras. So I hope that that answers your questions but I'm happy to dive in deeper to a certain element of that if you'd like. Well, just thinking of a couple of movies and books. I don't know if I'm going to be on the line just this afternoon, but one of them is the was it really true sad love story by Gary Stein guard. Where you walk by ads that are perfectly suited to you because you've got your phone in your pocket, and they know who you are, because of your phone are just for you going by, or another movie which I'm sure Evan knows much it's where it's probably Matt Damon but he's running away and he's like in the subway and there's ads scenes, but they're really it's all surveillance and of course surveillance is on my mind, because we're dealing with a surveillance bylaw. So that kind of possible uses are things that kind of flashed through my mind you've answered some questions. I like the idea that the town would totally own the charging stations, because I trust the town. Okay, that's something I do. Maybe Alyssa would say I shouldn't but I do, but I'm not sure some other company somewhere with a profit motive, which could be bought and sold. You know wonderful lady could be running the company. She starts to make money some, you know venture capitalist takes it, and it becomes a tool. Total surveillance. Okay, that's it for me today. Thank you. Thank you for your questions counselor. Part part of Dorothy's question was where where the proposal came from and did it. And how did, how did, how did it originate. It originated through myself, the town manager Paul Balkaman and superintendent of Public Works, Guilford mooring, when we were looking for other ways, especially upon the initial closing of buildings and identifying ways in which we could support especially community members who were relying on our buildings and our spaces to get access to information and to get access to power. Especially as we got closer to thinking about bringing a shelter for the season into the downtown space it became more apparent that we needed to find some sort of tool to bring with that location, having access to power having improved access to information. Thank you. Other, does anyone else have questions related to the review process anything that we need to know about other towns best practices or other stakeholders that need to weigh in or anything along those lines. So why don't we look at the questions, the, the finance committee questions and be honest answers. If you could pull them up George. Okay, I'm going to try to share my screen. Oh, I also, I also have them up if it's any easier I'd be happy to share them but just let me know. Well, let me just. To be honest, since you are more familiar with this technology and you've got it right there. Why don't you go ahead. Okay, in the interest of getting this done quickly. Sure thing. Just one moment you have to go I will try. Go ahead. All right, are you all able to see my screen. Yes, make it bigger. Thank you. Okay, so I don't know. I mean we just got these. We just got these questions today right. So I think it might make sense to, for you, Brianna to just briefly go through your answers. Unless anyone has objection to that. Whose hand is that Evans. I had a question that was just related to the finances. Okay. I can't ask because I think that it relates to question for. So I can either ask it now or I can wait. Why don't we, why don't we wait. So go ahead Brianna. Okay, you would you like me to repeat the questions as part of this process. Sure. Okay. So the first question. So the finance director, the finance director told us that the first year costs would be charged to CARES Act funds, and it is approximately $25,000. How much of that is for the informational signs and how much is for the charging stations. So the cost for the charging stations that we do in fact get to keep is $6,000 for the three charging station cores. So the first year license agreement. Okay. Evan, do you have a question about that? No, okay. Any, anyone else have a question about that? Okay. Number two. Is there any risk that. If the town signs a contract with the vendor that it will not be covered by the CARES Act. So the spending has been pre-approved by the state after the finance director submitted the request in narrative earlier as part of the approval process in order to even spend the CARES funding. So before we even get to a project, we, that might be CARES funded, we, we go through the portal on the state's website to see if it would be eligible for reimbursement and this one was approved. Okay, thank you. Any other questions about that? All right. Three. Who will market the advertisements and bear the risk that there will be fewer buyers than expected. Sufa, the company that will be providing us the, the signs and the charging stations handles all marketing and advertising. And they make an effort to work with the local business community by reaching out directly and hosting general information sessions so that the local businesses and Amherst will understand how to use the platform and optimize it for their business. Sufa typically also works with local chambers of commerce as well. And Sufa bears all risk if there are fewer buyers than expected. Okay. Questions about that? So I think maybe this is where my question might be useful for me. So, and this is also relates to the next question. I'm having a little trouble understanding how the advertising system and the revenue part of it works. And I guess the reason is, on the one hand, the answers in this document explained that they will sell advertising space on these and they have to make $2,500 a year in advertising space. The presentation that we received said that one of the benefits is it will offer free advertising to local businesses. And so I'm, I'm, there's a disconnect there that my mind is having trouble with. How is this an opportunity to offer free advertising for local businesses, while at the same time ensuring that they make at least $2,500 a year and signed in advertising. That's a great question. Councillor Ross, thank you. So the, it's not normal that they're going to be offering the free advertising but due to COVID-19 they are now, they are currently offering that as a free service to local businesses as a, you know, added tool or incentive to assist. Once things change and I guess as part of the presentation, it was hard because we don't have a finite date when that will cut over. And now because of COVID-19 and the implications with the local economy. They are offering that for free. And my understanding is until that situation changes, which I would love to say as a certain date but I don't know when that is. And I would imagine that would be based upon when things in in the economy change and when COVID-19 is not, you know, at the same level that it is right now. So go ahead Evan. So, and this does get into the next question so I probably should have just waited but since we're on it. So, you know, later you say if they assess based on advertising revenue from the first year that they generate 2500 in advertising. I guess I'm, how would they assess that they're going to be able to do that if they're doing the advertising for free. And then I guess the second question is when it does, if and when it does shift over to something where it's, they're not doing the free thing and it's all paid advertising. Is there, do they still prioritize local or because it's a much bigger company is it essentially could be ads for, you know, Acura or whatever. No, thank you for that question and that it's definitely worth clarifying. So, right now I believe with this pilot project year every month that's not that they're not charging for these ads to be utilized would not count in that assessment. So with, if within that year, let's say three months, we're back online in charging with the advertising and trying to meet that quota that it would be prorated. As far as prioritizing of local ads versus other ads I do not have that an answer to that but I can find out rather quickly by reaching back out to our contact in the company with that specific question. Alyssa. Yeah, that's my same question so I think that's really important to be able to answer I mean we have an Amherst area Chamber of Commerce. Now first of all not all our downtown or Amherst based businesses actually belong to the Chamber so that's part of the issue, but then part of the challenge I should say, but then there are also plenty of businesses that are outside of Amherst town lines that are outside of the Chamber. And so I'm going to mention two restaurants which would probably not appreciate be equivalent in people's minds but or that run them but I actually partake of both of them so I think it's fair. One is Wendy's which is in Hadley and one is Johnny's which is an Amherst so if I'm looking for advertising revenue as Sufa surely I'm going to places like Wendy's to get them to advertise. You know, Ken Johnny's Ken Momo, Ken other local businesses now during this free period right there can be a period of outreach, where the chamber can help us say, yes, maybe even ship non chamber members. We can work this out for Amherst but as it moves forward, how do we ensure that they aren't just all ads for businesses that might not even be in Hadley that might be just generic larger businesses. I'm, I'm a little uneasy about that. I'm just taking notes here so that I can make sure I ask your questions back accurately with with Sufa. Are there other questions about this Dorothy. Yes, it's about the advertisements. Part of this is based on my reactions to advertisements that are on my free media. I don't have a Macy's charge. I like Macy's, but for some reason on my email. They are posting some really gross ads. It's just of women in underwear, which in previous times in some circles would be considered semi pornographic. But this is Macy's you know a really family store. So I'm quite puzzled by it. And they'll say, oh that's just you know an okay ad. I don't have any say in these ads, and yet they'd be on our streets. So that bothers me a little bit since I don't find good taste going on on the internet that I use and I use very conservative internet. Um, do you have any response to that Brianna to the level of control of advertising of the advertising. Um, I again will I have that on my list to reach out I know that we don't directly control it. I have a little bit of information about how I think it was in response to maybe counselor brewers question about it being accessible and cost to smaller businesses. So I was able to get a little bit of information about that but I can, I can broaden the request for information and get a little bit more detail to include that scope. I have a question about the cost Brianna and that is, um, how, how much would it cost for, for what period of time for, say, tastings wanted to advertise or some local restaurant. For, you know, X amount for one week or how does that work. So they have the information that I received that obviously outside of the COVID period where that's now being offered as a free service but when it does get back to a paid service. So I think that is an $99 a month, which, and it could be seasonal so a business who really wants to advertise only in the summer, could sign up to just do that for those three months and put a pause on advertising on the sign, and then maybe if they wanted to pick up back for the holidays they could come back online during the months of November and December for example, for the monthly fee. So how does that work. Are they just, are they just they're rolling throughout the day so they're different. There are a whole lot of different ads in a day. Yeah so there would be and I'm just going to since my screen is up and showing just to remind you of the portion of the screen that would host different ads would be and I hope you can see this. So the bottom left hand piece of the screen bottom left hand. So, okay right where this square is. Okay. And I will and I will also say you know I will get back with Sufa for those questions but also it is in many communities, and I can certainly ask specific questions to some of those host communities. For example, Brookline has 24 of them, and just to see what their experience since they've been online for a little longer I can ask their specific experience about the ads, just to maybe alleviate some of the concerns or answer some of the questions a little bit better. Okay, Alyssa do you have another question. Sorry the brick the other community is is, thank you very much for offering that Brianna that you'll reach out that was going to be my other question. Dorothy. Yes, we're still in for it says the cost of operating for one sign is 2500, which they would pay if the advertising revenue was working but if we, if it wasn't sufficient for them, and we decided to keep it. I'm trying to figure out what would that be for how would it cost $2,500 a year to maintain the sign. So it's to maintain the sign, you know, as part of the part of the project is they, there's weekly maintenance. It would cover any of the costs for redoing the design on the custom front and back vinyl that you saw in the picture that I showed with the wayfinding elements. So the technology itself we get access to a dashboard, a cloud based dashboard where staff or myself in town would be able to kind of push out notifications and change the the look and view of the screen so all of those, all of those costs would be you know part of what we would end up paying as an operating costs should add revenue be insufficient. So you're saying it's really taking up tech time, which might involve some extra employee or might take some of the time off of other things but it's not really not too much of it is for physical stuff. It's mostly keeping up the, the ads, the look, the design, the web. Yeah, I'd say it was a combination of both the physical maintenance of the sign and the maintenance of the information that's being sent to the site. Thank you. Has everybody had an opportunity to read the answer to number four. Yes. Okay. Are those remaining hands. Still relevant. Okay, so number five. I think we also covered how much of town staff will be required and has that cost been quantified. Would you like me to read the response counselor do monitor. Go ahead. And so the town staff time commitments in this case the communications manager or myself, we anticipate to be minimal. The communications manager will have access to an online cloud based dashboard to push out periodic updates to the message screen similar to the town's other existing information channels. Other information on the display such as transit times town social media weather and clock time, etc. will be pulled from existing sources or feeds and populated automatically onto the signs in real time. The physical maintenance of the signs is completed by Sufa on a weekly schedule or as needed and is included in the cost. How frequently will you change the, the, the, the, the periodic updates. As, as frequently as, as is needed or deemed appropriate in terms of, you know, an emerging information or if there's an important council meeting, similar to how we utilize our existing channels and right now, it would be a kind of an add on to the existing options or buffet of options that we have available to us to push out notifications so as, as, as frequent as needed but I would imagine for example if we had a. A big issue like a new emergency order we might leave that up for a little bit until the next timely update was needed but so to answer more succinctly as as frequently or as as little so as frequently as we needed to. Okay. Any other questions about that. So the number six is about ongoing costs such as insurance. You want to read that Brianna. Absolutely. So there are no ongoing costs to the town Sufa takes full responsibility for the install maintenance and repair if needed of all hardware. So there will be not, there will not be any additional costs incurred to the town after the first payment is made. Do you how what's the longest time that any town that is adopted this how what's the longest time that they have had Sufa signs. I know that many communities have recently added some so I think the longest is probably two or three years at this point. And anywhere from, you know, many communities are now trying to get them online obviously because of in response to COVID-19 so there's new communities coming online more rapidly. But some communities like Boston and Malden have had them for over a year or two in some cases. So we don't have any idea about, you know, what might be the problems in five years after. Alyssa. I'm sorry, maybe I'll hold off until we're done with this list because I just want to go back. I want to belabor advertising types a little bit more but let I didn't mean to interrupt. So let's just see if there are any other questions about the financial aspect or anything related to these questions. Before we go over Mandy Joe's question which is about placement. Any other questions about financial stuff. Actually it is financial. This separate one. I don't feel like we answered the question in six about insurance. And so if someone's injured because they decide to climb the sign because you know that's never happened in Amherst. Then that's not any more our problem than like if they climb on a bench right. I mean, what protection level do we have in there. I wanted to pull up the contract which was reviewed several times by KP law and I believe the liability in that case is also belongs to Sufa. But I could, I could pull up the specific language. I just don't have it at hand at the moment. That's totally fine if you could forward it so we could share it with the town council that would be perfect. I will put that on my list definitely. Thank you. Okay, so if there aren't any other questions about financial issues we have this one question from Mandy Joe about the placement southeast corner versus northwest corner of for one of the Sufa signs. Would you like me to read the answer and sign we can we can just read it. If you counselors have questions about either that or any other placement questions. Alyssa. No. Okay. Evan. This is we're talking placement probably actually about the charging stations. And I guess I'm curious. One of them it so so I can I can make sense of all of them I think right ones out of bust up ones essentially in front of the shelter and ones in front of the library and so these all make sense. I guess I wondered one if that's why they are where they are and you may have said that Monday night but you presented at like three in the morning and so I don't really remember. And then to I actually really liked the idea of having one out of a high traffic bus stop, and that sort of made sense because people are sort of already sitting there waiting for the bus. I was wondering if there was a thought about. For the other two, you know, maybe in front of the library is not the best place and maybe it should be at the bus stop like by spring street which serves like the 31 or something like that. I don't think a lot of people are often sitting in front of the library at that location at those benches but they often they always are at bus stops right and it would also sort of pair with the new shelters. Thank you counselor Ross yes I agree and I and I, we they were chosen for those reasons as you mentioned so the the St. Bridgets is a high traffic bus stop it has good sun which we could accommodate the solar in the space to put the solar charging over there. And for similar reasons here, outside of what was once barts and proximity to the UU church. And these, these locations aren't fixed so you know upon that feedback, we could certainly if the sun is right and the, the, the site is correct then we could, you know, instead of having something outside the Jones it could be something that is moved, either the initial install or based off of feedback afterwards because I'll just say that it's a it's a quick four bolt installation. So we can move these and I don't want to offer up the services of public works. I don't want to start blanch but they feel for mooring as well as as the company have walked the sites and, you know, agreed that viewing them for the what minimal site prep work was needed, and proximity to some of those high traffic locations as well as being optimized for sun. So we could have that moved down to be close to one of the other transit centers with ease. Dorothy. All right, I'm looking at the bus stop picture, and the last couple of pages, there's one without the bus stop shelter and without the kiosk. And it has a power box, a waste basket, two signs that say bus stop, a blue plastic maybe newspaper container, a white plastic maybe newspaper a real estate container and a bench. And I admit they all look kind of messy and isolated. And it fact does look better after the bus stop the next picture is put there, but then they've added the information kiosk. And I have to tell you that aesthetically thinking about the green, the common, what we're spending to put into it. That is a really messy site. And I'm just thinking. Can we make charging stations as part of our bus stop shelters. Can we eliminate some of these those plastic boxes there because it's it's getting to be just all kinds of little chats keys in a row. And each is needed in perhaps in one way or the other but adding the information kiosk and, and this spring street one does not have the solar charging station there is is not good so I'm just thinking is there a way to. This is the offer that's been presented to the town. I know it's attractive and I know it seems free because of being able to use cares money. But if one we're planning on an information kiosk and solar charging stations. Is that how you would do it or would you try to, you know, integrate them into bus stops which is a good place to do it. I agree with, you know, if given the proper planning and someday that they would be well suited to be integrated into the bus shelters and I know it's not my projects I don't know the specifics. With the new bus shelters that are coming online I don't think that that is an option, which is why we've been trying to pair some of this technology to go in conjunction with some of those existing or infrastructure that's coming online. I'm not sure if there was another question in there that I should respond to but I agree with you. It relates to Evan's statement about in front of the Jones and I don't know whether he was thinking this way, but some people might not want that in front of the Jones just speak for aesthetic reasons and say no let's just have the front of the building nice and the lawn and what other structures the library has to put up in terms of tents or tables and chairs, not adding more things there. And I thought a bus stop is a good place to put these utilitarian things particularly since it has the bus stop times. You know, that's if I use the bus, that's the thing I would want to know. I want to know when is the bus coming. And I think in, and I don't know if this is possible but in Manhattan. They even have real time information about transit on some of these automatic signs, which will tell you 20 minute delay or, you know, bus out of service, whatever it is I don't know that would be part of it, or whether it's just a schedule that shows up if you push a button. So that's real time transit data that we would get from PV, PVTA that we would that we would connect with the signs. That's really valuable stuff. And I will just say just in general with with the locations were not these aren't entirely set in stone these are what we propose so we're welcome to feedback like you've offered. So we have the zones library for just a moment of why we selected that site to kind of go in conjunction with their outdoor services that they've offered and, and speaking with the library director, how that facility was used by so many to charge a device or to access information so we were trying to maybe align with some of those needs there, but that being said, the course and the signs are not entirely set. They are not entirely set in stone in terms of where we place them. I would think you'd want to put a charging station there but it was just a question of, you know, all these little things in a row. I would just add, unless we have other people with comments. I actually really appreciate the placement of the of the chargers because I, you know, I've been thinking, thinking about this in bed last night. And I, at some point just had a revelation about how much our, our local homeless population is going to love these things. And the guests at the Wednesday morning breakfast at the Unitarian Church plus, you know, they now Craig's doors is now there. My experience is that that we have highly, you know, a lot of people who would really appreciate the both the signs and the chargers. And these are great places for that particular group of people in front of the USA in front of the library. And at the bus stop. I would say they would be less likely to be at the other bus stops than at the places where they're currently located. The only thing I might suggest is the, is the, the the sign that's on the southeast corner of the Spring Street parking lot might. I know that it's right at the bus stop there so there'd be there'd be people there hanging out and they would be reading it but it on the across the parking lot on the northwest corner of that parking lot is a massive amount of foot traffic from everybody who parks there and everybody who walks down the sidewalk there, plus all the people from the bus, a lot of the people from the bus stop would cross there but anyway, I just feel like it would catch more traffic on the other corner, but that is I'm not an authority and some other people may have studied the foot traffic. I really, really appreciate the thought that's gone into this and the fact that it emanated from concern about that population. That's very cool, even though it's the advertising part of it is slightly annoying. So circling back to the advertising part of it and I'm really sorry if you went over this with us on Monday Brianna and I just spaced it out, but since we went ahead and had you read all these other things to us I suppose it won't be a surprise if you have to repeat something is in terms of that advertising content, what limitations can we place on that to make it really clear because for example, you know soup is in other cities right and plenty of cities meet the threshold for advertising for alcohol and marijuana. We do not, we do not meet that threshold because of the 21 and populate under 21 population here. So that's why even if we had billboards, you wouldn't see billboards for alcohol and marijuana inside the town limits of Amherst. So, but I'm sure they can do that elsewhere and I'm not talking about a restaurant that serves cocktails I'm talking about the lovely sign that you see as you get off across the bridge and come into Hadley and some years it's a lovely thing from the campus, campus coalition against and I was drinking and other times it's have a bud light as you're welcome to Hadley. So, I realize it's a much smaller portion of the sign than a billboard, but is there a way that we do we have any specifications that we're putting into this as to making it clear to them. It isn't that I walk by it one day when I'm actually able to walk around outside again, and see that they're doing the what's required to be over 21 and then I have to say well they're breaking the rules and then they have to fix it, as opposed to being upfront about some of these things. Thank you for your questions and comments counselor. Yeah, so that is I think part of the thing that I need to go back to Sufa with and my my list to drill down into the ads the prioritization, the local versus larger business and now I have that specifically on my list to get some details on. So, our contract with them is not signed at all obviously yet so we do have opportunity if we do identify something that's not already something that is restricted or available to be restricted that we can make sure that we write that into the contract that we sign. So it sounds. Oh, it sounds to me like we are leaning toward hearing more from Brianna at our next meeting, rather than deciding tonight. Is that what I'm hearing from people. That's not what you're hearing from me. I'm totally content to get those answers provided to town council. Without having to come back through us. I don't think that we add any additional value at this point I think we've dove, we dove into a whole bunch of questions here, just like you solicited from the town council. And I don't think having Brianna tell it to us and then have us telling it to the town council separately is at all necessary at this point I think she just provides the information we can write our report and say, we'll still be getting information on XYZ and then forward it when it's available. Okay, so do you have a suggestion about what are, if we were sending back a report and recommendation based on what we have already. What we would be recommending. I'd recommend approval. I'd recommend approval conditioned on. No, because I mean, it's not conditioned on a certain answer right it's not conditioned on she comes back with an answer that says a plus B equals C, it's condition, it would be conditioned on she gets us more information. If we don't get more information than we say at the town council meeting hey, we asked her for more information she didn't provide it so our recommendation no longer stands but if anybody else wants to try and fine tune that I'm fine with that too. Evan you have a thought. I was going to say what Alyssa said largely that I, you know, my biggest concerns with this are about the advertising after that initial period ends, and the possibility that we can provide a great advertising free advertising service service for struggling local for a period of time, and then the possibility that then defaults to just national ads that are certain maybe the cost is inaccessible. However, um, this is a pilot. And so if that happens and we don't like it we just don't do it again. And so the fact that it this is something we're trying out for a year, and if we don't like it, we don't have to continue with it means that I'm actually I'm willing to move forward with this, even even in the absence of the answers from Brianna, because it's a test run and and we'll learn more as we go and then when the pilots over we have another conversation of is this something we want to keep doing and we'll have more information then. So yeah I would support recommending approval. Dorothy. So moving in that direction, but I would. I really appreciate Alyssa's reminding us of something that I probably knew but don't know if I knew it about why that we should not have advertisements for alcohol, or marijuana on there because of our underage large population. My suggestion is that when it's presented to the town council again that Brianna mentioned that, and that she also mentioned the answer to the question when we said how did this come to us that this project was initiated by town staff in order to meet town needs, as opposed to somebody coming us to say hey I got this great new thing for you. I think it helps make a stronger case. I'm willing to do a pilot case to see how it goes and I think we would all kind of be watching it carefully. Yeah. George. I'm going to endorse this as well. I think that we've heard enough. I don't see any merit in it coming back to us again. And the council can, given the answers that will be presented and any other discussion that can make up its mind. I think there is a little bit of time pressure here as well. I believe this has to be, maybe Brianna can address this but my foggy memory from Monday night is that this is something that we would try to move on fairly quickly unless there was some serious problem. And I'd be happy to address what Councillor Ryan just alluded to. There is a deadline for us to use the funds and that's the end of December of this year. And just to reiterate, I appreciate what Councillor Ross reminding that we do have this as a pilot project. We're very much seeing this as a trial. But within that year, if we see anything that we do not like that can't be resolved, we, as part of our license agreement, it can be canceled at any point at, at the request of the town and our council. And I think that the AP law council made sure that that was written into the contract so that we are able to, if something goes awry we do not have to wait for the entire year in order to be done with, with the signs. And I will also just say one more thing about the timing is that we are hoping to get the course online this season the charging station course online this season just because we find feel that there is a distinct need to get those online sooner. And the signs we are planning to bring online in the springtime so that gives us extra time to address any siting locations, potential site work that needs to be done, and also design on the signs. Are these additional comments, Alyssa. Okay. I was, I was basically going to ask if it was at all possible for the signs to go up for the holiday shopping season but it sounds like that would be unreasonable so We certainly could get them up and online. And it would just be that we'd have to move quickly to decide and get consensus on the, the design element of that. Okay. It sounds like we are all in favor. So, is there someone who would like to fashion emotion, other than me. I, well, we could just say, we recommend the town council approve the does it have an official name, the Sufa sign Sufa sign and core charger proposal. The one year pilot program Sufa solar information and communication signs project. Um, I'll second if you're making that motion I'll second it. Any further discussion. All right. Roll call vote. We will not start with Alyssa. Good. I don't know where we are about that but I don't want to start with Alyssa. She'll complain about it. All right Dorothy. Yes. Evan. Yes. George. Yes. Alyssa. Yes. Okay. Passes unanimously. And so that will be able to go back. It'll be in our report and come up at the town council meeting on the seventh. So, and we don't have to deal with it anymore. Thank you very much, Brianna for all your good work on that. Thank you all for your time and I hope you have a good evening. Thanks again. Thank you. Before she goes. Before she goes, Brianna. I'll bet Brianna was going to do this anyway because the way she was so responsive to our questions previously, but we can send in our report and she can send in her information as she gets it just to the full town council. And that'd be great because then they'll be better prepared for December 7th. Absolutely. I will do that. Okay. All right. So the town manager is supposed to be here right now. But I'm sure he'll get here shortly. Maybe we could just very briefly. Why don't we just pull up the. The public way policy so we can look at it. Okay. This is the one that he revised to just extend. Right. Section four. It's a, yeah, he revised the. Original proposal so that the only parts that's underlined is section four. Parts of section four. So. All we need to look at is section four. Can you make it bigger? Is that any better? You want it bigger? Bigger is better. Okay. See what I can do. There we go. I can do it even more. That's huge on my screen, but I can do it more if you need it. Oh, wow. Are you with us? Okay. So. Maybe let's just leave that for us to look at. And talk for a minute. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Paul, we're waiting for, for. Paul about our upcoming. Meeting and what we think. Might. On the work plan at the next meeting. I was assuming that we would continue with the public way policy. If we don't, I suppose it's possible that we'll vote on it tonight. Okay. I think that we recommend this to the town council using the language that was on our motion sheet for Monday. The, the section four. Yep. Okay. Do we want to discuss it first? We can discuss it after the motion if someone seconds it, but I don't feel any need for discussion. So if a motion has been made, I'm happy to second it. But I don't have the language in front of me because I want it to match as close as we can to what it said on Monday nights. Town council motion sheet, which I'm sure I can find here, but it's not at my fingertips this second, but we all know what I'm talking about. So maybe while I look for that, George can ask his question. Yeah, I think I just need, and it's probably obvious to everyone, but me, but why, why this needs to be placed in here. And just, you know, just, right, just an explanation for this is obviously something that's going to go away at some point. And we seem to be doing fine without it. So, but maybe we're not. So maybe there's a good reason why we need to put it in. Or maybe it's just, we're just covering our, you know, what? So. Anyone have any idea why this is necessary? I guess it's a simple question. That's why we were waiting for the midtown manager. Yeah. I figured it was a question for Paul, but maybe somebody has insight into this. It may simply be dotting eyes and crossing T's. Or there may be Joe said, we needed to do it. You remember that conversation. I think it's a good question. I think it's a good question. I think it's a good question. So maybe there's a good reason why we need to put it in. Or maybe it's just, we're just covering our, you know what? So. You remember that conversation. She said, we needed to have the two of them together. All right. So that may be the answer. It. Well, that's true. She had something about, was it three, whatever it is, one of these items. It's mentioned notwithstanding the above limitations and sections. One of these sections, I believe is problematic. Or at least might have some. Excuse me, I'm sorry. Which is why he fixed it to just be this. Okay. So I thought it had to do with sections. One of these items. Cross referencing. Right. He took out 3D. Okay. He took out his reference to 3D because I, because I would for once said, I don't like 3D, but let's go ahead and do this part. A little bit, George, so we can see the whole thing. You wanted to make it smaller. No, scroll down. Sure. Okay. I'm sorry. We're a section four than what is here. Oh, section four is, is unfortunately two pages, at least in my document. So. Here's the top. Let's see if I can move it up a bit. And then this over. Okay. Sorry. Are you, is your question, why are we, why do we need this? Yeah. It's a dumb question, but I just needed it. You know, why do we need this? So you said, you said that we've been operating fine without it, but we've been operating without it. Our current public ways policy has a section four. Yeah. It basically says for the town manager to make decisions about public ways under our policy, we delegate that authority to him because otherwise our policy would require a lot of the things that he's been doing to have come to the council because. Yeah, you'll remember from GOL we said anything that's a reservation of the public ways past 14 days needs council approval. So all those tables, all that would have needed council approval. So we added section four to our public ways policy to allow him to do that without coming to the council. That I understand. But as it's written right now. Right. It says. That it expires is not to extend past 180 days past the effective date of by law article of zoning by law article 14. So we tied the expiration of this section not to the end of article 14, but from the effective date, which means that it's that this section, if we don't fix it, would expire in a couple of weeks from now, because it expires 180 days. So then the section would disappear. And yet article 14 will live on until December. 2021. Thank you. So that, that is this part after the end of the. Right. Right. It switches it from the termination of this switching from that. And then the other part was technically our delegation only applied to those things under article 14, but a lot of the things he was doing. So I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. I think that's a good point. A response to cover. The governor's order. And we actually technically didn't cover that. So these two things fixed those two deficiencies in the policy we have now. Thank you. Thank you. All right. So. I needed those answers too. So I'm glad that you had them, Evan. So any other questions? Yes. I do. I have. Lots of papers on the public way. That. And I, I just, well, I look at it as if it's a, is it, if it has anything to do with extending restaurants, being able to use things, I understand that. But if it's the second, one that's longer on page three, which has. I think that's a good point. For three D in it, which is underlined, which I think things that are underlined are supposed to be changed. Dorothy. And we just made the point that three D has been removed from this. So if you look closely under a, it's two A, two B, three B and three C. So three D is not there. So it was taken out by Paul. Precisely for the reason that you've raised. Alyssa has raised. And I probably would raise. So it's not there. So I think I'm, I think when I put some papers together, I'm missing a page because I have. Recommendation. I've got yesterday's email, Dorothy. This is just from yesterday. It's like practically hot off the press today. And I was. I'm meeting at my dining room table because with two meetings back to back. I have papers everywhere. Just trying to be ready. Perfectly understandable. As Alyssa pointed out, we just got this literally, right? So. So what, what they're talking about a. What they're talking about. What they're talking about. Is talk article 14 is what's up, which is letting, letting the businesses use the streets. Right. And I don't have anything to say about that at all. But our, but B expedite the approval process for more common requests. We're only talking about section four tonight. Right. Yeah. Right. I'm just going around. Okay. What is section four then? It's on the screen. Yeah. I'm just going to go through the sections at probably the, our next meeting. So this section four is only about restaurants. And things in the street, right? Sidewalk cafes, drinks. Okay. I have no problem with any of that then if that's what it's about. Because, because some of the other stuff, I looked at it quickly. And I thought. Then I said, then TSO will have absolutely nothing to say about the public way anymore. Right. Which is why we asked him to take it out. You're exactly right. Dorothy. Okay. So I'm fine now. Thank you. All right. Any other questions or comments? Okay. So, well, let's have a roll call vote then. Evan. Yes. George. Yes. Listen. Yes. Yes, Dorothy. Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. It's unanimous. And our, our motion can just reference the November 18th memo. He sent us. Emily, did, do you, did you get that? Kind of. Do you want to just repeat? I understand. I do. I understand. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So the November 18th memo. It's probably best to name the policy again. So it's the town council policy. Regarding the control. And regulation of the public ways. And he sent us a memo on the 18th telling showing us which things were underlined that was a revision since Monday. And so I think if we reference his. The actual policy that's being. Changed, then we should be covered. Okay. And. Sorry, who made that motion. I did. Alyssa. All right. All right. Got it. Thank you. So I just want to add how important minutes are and. Emily, I find some of this very confusing and you really should just. Shout out when you don't know what we're talking about. Because we're not going to know what we talked about in a week afterwards. If it's not in the minutes correctly. I mean, we know what we're talking about, but the rest of the world may be confused. Yes. We always know what we're talking about. That is correct. Okay. So. Oh, that will also go into our report. For the December 7th meeting. And if you, if you have a question about that, Emily, just sent, send me an email and I'll help you with that motion. That wording. Okay. Thank you. So, I guess we can move on to the appointments. We'll do them without Paul. Let's start with the CDBG advisory committee. There's just one appointment to that. Okay. Actually. Usually we do count on him to explain things. Maybe we'll have to pull up that memo. Because I don't have that information in front of me. I'm just going to say. I read the memos. And all I can say is that Amherst has the greatest opportunity to respond to that. I mean, I've probably, you know, there are very few towns outside of it. They were excellent. Candidates. And, you know, I just had no questions about any of them. So. Okay. Well, let's. Let's just look at the CDBG advisory committee. We have one person recommended. We have one person recommended. We have one person recommended. We have one person recommended. We have one person recommended. And. Oh, here we go. Good. We can just read that. Profile. That's good. Any, any. Comments or questions or. Concerns. Evan. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that it really useful that we were told. That she has been attending meetings of the committee. That's something that I think that. We shouldn't have as a requirement, but we should be encouraging of if you want to get appointed to a committee, start going to the meetings, see what it's like, see, understand what the responsibilities are. And the fact that she has been doing that is encouraging. And the fact that he told us she's been doing that. I think that we'll make its way back to the town manager at some point. Yeah. Alyssa. Yeah, I can't emphasize that enough having done, been doing appointments for many, many years prior to town council, the number of people who applied for something based on the name of it, rather than knowing when the meetings were or knowing what they were actually doing was rather shocking to me. Seems obvious to us as town counselors, but not so much to the public. So I think that we should be encouraging people to attend meetings, especially now, right? It's actually more accessible to a lot more people. Because they don't have to drive anywhere to do it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But we've touched on it associated with our interview questions too, like how familiar are you actually with the work of this body? And I do think that is definitely something he should. He should not. He doesn't have to mention the negative. Like they've never been to a meeting and don't know anything about it, but he does. It should definitely be mentioned that they have been attending. And we should be encouraging people to attend meetings, but we should be encouraging people to attend meetings. Okay. So I. Unless there are other comments, I moved to recommend the time council approve. Following person recommended by the town manager to serve on the CDB advisory committee for a one year term. Expiring June 30th, 2021. Rika Clement. Second. I can second that. Okay. Any other. Comments. I just had a question about. The composition is that where it is? Yeah. And this is, I apologize for taking up our time, but. It says members may serve on other town, multiple member bodies, but CDBG advisory committee membership is not to exceed. One individual per other multiple member body. And maybe that's obvious to all of you, but I read that. I still read that. I'm not quite sure what it means. Yeah. I know, I know. Thank you. I thought Alyssa might know. You wrote that Alyssa, did you write that sentence? I bet you. I wrote it a long time ago. And actually somebody else helped write it a long time ago. And I can tell you exactly what that's about. What does it mean? We, we at one point. Had a number of people, all wonderful people, right? Not criticism of the people at all. So. Actually, at one point had two or three members. Of the block grant advisory committee were all serving on housing committees. And so while it makes sense to have connections and it makes sense for CPAC to have representation, just like it makes sense for black grant to have representation. It felt. It helped. It helped. It helped. It helped. It was volunteering at that particular moment was a bunch of people from housing, housing related committees that we had at that time. And so again, no disrespect to the wonderful service that they provided when they were on block grant. And of course they looked at everybody evenly, but it felt bad to some of the applicants. And so we decided that we better go ahead and, and write that into the charge. And that was quite a few years ago. So if that. You know, an individual member can be a member of another multiple member body. That's permitted. Yes. You can have more than one that belongs to the same multiple member body. Right. And so you shouldn't appoint two members of the trust. Right. For example, to this. I don't know if there's a way to say that clear, but now I understand it. So I understand what you're saying. I do. I'm not sure. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So, but thank you. That was, I apologize, but I was a question I had. Otherwise that was it. Okay. I think we're ready to vote. George. Yes. Listen. I'm already. Yes. Darcy. Yes. Dorothy. Yes. Seven. Yes. Okay. That was unanimous. So now we have. Five recommendations to the personnel board. And. I am going to miss Paul for this part because I really. Wanted him to. Talk about Tony Butterfield. I haven't talked about him since 2006. And for some reason. He received a three year term. Where other people got to or one. And so I don't understand that. That does not seem to. Fit. Our policy. I had, I had a similar question. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know the detail. I believe he does. In this section under summary of process. So what he says here, if I'm Mr. Butterfield has been. A member of the personnel boards is 2006. And then he goes, I don't need to read it. You all have read it. I assume, but you can read it again. So he makes a very strong case. For Butterfield and tries to. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know about this factory, but this is, I take his answer. To that question, which. Yeah. I didn't answer the question of why he wouldn't just a pointer for one year. Yeah. I guess you got. This doesn't answer that, I guess. Because it doesn't make sense to me. Someone that has been on there that long. Would get. Appointed for three years. Right. Yeah. I'm not a HR director, but after a year, that would, you know, the person would no longer be new. So that's, I think a fair question to ask him why three years instead of one. I suspect it's because he may in fact. Run the committee and do it very, very well. And that the town feels. That it's very good job. And. That's what I suspect. I don't know. I don't know. I think he might basically be able to serve as long as he wants to. Right. Basically. So as long as, at least as long as follows down manager and Butterfield wants to be on this body. Paul will keep reporting. Right. We have the other town policy presents. Problems, but. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I haven't seen this before. Well, I would think if the process isn't followed, and that's something I noticed about this, and I would have asked him if he were present. Is that unlike all the other appointments, I think he's ever made. He had kind of advisory committee formed. But if I read this correctly and please correct me if I'm missing something. It looks like he did this on his own. There's no. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. He basically helps him with appointments. None of that is mentioned. He seems to have made this decision. Without consulting anyone else, which is perfectly free of doing, but it's not his usual process. So that's one thing I noticed. And that's what I always look for. First of all, does he follow the usual process. Where he brings in other people and there's an interview team. And they talk to each other and then Paul makes a decision. I don't know. But I don't see it here. I don't see any process statement. Or the summary of the process is basically just. Just describing the people that are on the board. And then his reason for keeping Butterfield. So does anyone else have a concern about that? Because I mean. We could conceivably send that one appointment back to him with. With our questions. And then deal with it at our next meeting. So that he can, he can explain those things. I feel if he's given more explanation here. Then he does. Other places. And he's saying, I really rely on this person. So. I know Tony Butterfield slightly. I know his wife. And I know he's a very unassuming quiet person. So I suspect he's somebody who just offers. Quiet. But I don't know. I don't know. Judgment which Paul has found has been extremely useful. Because I mean, I've never seen him write this stuff for anybody else. So I think he's telling us. I really. Feel I need this person. And what more could he say beyond that? Other thoughts. Lost. Yes. Oh, listen. I don't know how much trouble I normally give him. So building one other people have said. Actually he did follow his usual process, George. But I'll tell you why. Because he doesn't interview reappointments. These are all reappointments. Yeah. And so, right. Well, that's not our process, but that's his process. He doesn't interview reappointments. So, so for that's the only way you can follow the process. The other thing that I want to point out is. I don't like one off type situations either where I say, Oh, but this committee says special. But one, it actually is because of its relationship with town employees. It's like really different than all of our other committees. And the way Paul described that people trust. Mr. But I think it's really, really huge. But also let me point and keep getting sent back by the board of library trustees year after year after year, if that's what they choose to do, right? So that longevity can exist. Charlie Sherpa can keep getting chosen by town employees to be there year after year after year. So I have a little bit of a hard time saying no to the town manager, even though Tony better feels served in this role so long to say, yeah, I know those other bodies can choose to keep sending people back, but you can't. And so I would really like to hear from him at some point that he's working on recruiting new people so that we don't eventually see a personnel board that everybody served 20 years. Like there's never a change, right? Which is not to say I want anybody to resign. Please don't hear it that way. So I share the concern and I absolutely do think Darcy, in response to your earlier question, would we ever say now? Absolutely. We can say now we had and we absolutely could do that. I just don't think this is the case and I don't think pushing him to do a one year appointment. Given the explanation he's provided, given the conditions of two people being able to be sent back by their committees year after year, given how complex dealing with personnel is right now with the COVID situation, I'm thinking it's not a great time for a change. I guess I'm the only one that feels that. This needs more explanation. So maybe what I would propose is that we just separate that out so that I can vote against it and we can, we can vote for all the other ones together. I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea. You want to have us vote on four people together and then vote on one name individually? Yeah. I don't personally feel comfortable with that. I think that is embarrassing by singling somebody out. I understand your reasons Darcy. I do. And there's a process. I understand that. And we've, we've never done that with any, with any batch of appointments, even in OCA. I mean, you'd be free Darcy to vote against it. And then in your report, explain why you voted against that. And you could certainly speak to that at talent council. But I agree that that separating out an individual seems certainly something we've never done. And it does seem to be potentially hurtful or at least a little bit, you know, insulting, especially for someone who served as long as this. Well, it doesn't matter how long you've served. So if you haven't, I think if you have an objection to a particular member in the group, you can vote against. Right. You know, recommending these appointments and then explain why. Right. But I absolutely, anyone can ask to separate out a motion. Into its parts. But we can then refuse to pass that motion. Yeah. So if you want to do that, you could make that motion. And then I think we'll probably defeat it, but you're perfectly free to do that. No, you don't have to. I have the right person who's. Proposes to separate out the parts of emotion. And do it without emotion. We have the right to do that. I guess there's a question as to whether or not there. Are separate parts here. And if you're going to do that, then I think you should be separating all the people out. I don't understand. We could do that. We could separate out all the people. If you think that, oh, there's Paul. Oh my goodness. Maybe he can. Maybe we can solve this problem. I think that I still want to do it, but Paul. Yes, I'm sorry. I'm late. Welcome. I'm stuck up for you, Paul. I wanted that to be on the record. So did I. And Dorothy did too. So we're, we're in the middle of the, the. Personnel board appointments and. Have been discussing Tony Butterfield and how long he's been on the board. And so, and we look saw. We discussed the profile and, you know, his long years of experience, but I just kind of looked at the. And the others who have been on the board. And we talked about everything and they talked about the, the licensing, et cetera, et cetera. And. Alissa gave all the arguments why he's. It's a good idea to keep them. And so we would like to hear from you though. Yeah. So I haven't very often brought someone who has. I don't, I don't abide by the two term limit. I know that select board had that but that's not necessarily, If there's someone who is in a situation where I believe they bring such a skill set, but also for me, I think I tried to say this in my memo. It's very hard for me to have people I can talk to about senior staff with other senior staff. Mr. Butterfield brings that ability to me to say when I have when I'm struggling with something with a management issue other than other managers or confidence outside the town. He has a wide range of experience both through the management field and knowing the town in a really strong way that I can sit down with him and I did it this summer actually and said here's here's some things I'm thinking through and what's happening and here's what's happening, what advice do you have and I find his advice to always be very sage. And since this is a committee that is advisory to the town manager and is a conduit for non union employees to communicate to have a third party that they can communicate with when they're not unionized. I felt like it's important for me to have that person available and is more important than than the sort of theory of turnover at this point in time for me. And also the second point being that since our new HR director is relatively new to the town, and he provided really good guidance to our previous HR director. So that's important. That's another factor that played into my thinking on this. So the second question was, why not a one year term since he's been there since 2006. So the two that get one year term. So the charter calls for the terms to be staggered, the two that are one year terms now are ones that get a point sort of get appointed every year. You know, they're the ones that are recommended either by employees or by the library trustees so that's always going to be a one year term. And then to make sure and then for Rebecca Woodland and Catherine Porter, this would extend out their second terms, according to how when they started their service. So, yeah, I could have said one year term or two years or two but I chose three years. Because I think that his his contributions are very valuable to me. Evan. And it is also because I really hope we can get to consensus on this, you want to note that this isn't necessarily. I don't want to say this is usual because we usually do see more turnover in a lot of these other bodies but it's also not unusual. I was thinking back to some of the appointments we did on OCA. I think it was Rosemary Koffler who has served the council on aging since 2005, I think so even longer than the candidate here and who OCA unanimously recommended the town council approve a three year term for. We also dealt with MIT perhaps I think it was water supply protection, which was another one that oftentimes is hard to get recruits who has someone serving on it from the early 2000s and we recommended approval so we have had situations before where we had someone who has served for a very long time, but has been seen as a real asset and you know Darcy you voted for Rosemary in that instance, because we were told that that was a person who was really an asset to that committee, and that it was a committee that doesn't have people clamoring to get on to it and so to me this is just another example of that. Dorothy. I understand it correctly. The two other members are appointed by other bodies, and I guess they they're approved by the advisory committee but they're appointed by other bodies, and it's always a one year term at a time. This way, I'll even though he served a long time is a way of maintaining or at least assuring continuity, because you don't control or we don't control the other nominees, they're sending board controls that. And the fact that there's often consistency with some of them doesn't mean that that's what will happen. I have no problem with having this a long serving person have a three year term under these conditions. Yeah, I have a problem with it and I don't. I, I find it strange that the committee thinks that I should not be able to vote against one of the people recommended. This is what we're here for right. So, but if if there's a problem with. I mean it's fine with me to vote on them all separately, so that there's nothing odd about it. Pam, our Dorothy. I moved to approve a three year term for Tony Butterfield and for Rebecca Woodland a two year term for Catherine Porter and a one year term for Christopher Hoffman and Charles Sherpa as listed on the town managers memo. I'll second that we talked about this in terms of how we thought it would make various individuals feel I totally understand your concern Darcy I don't consider it to rise to the level of not approving the person's appointment that you would much prefer a one year appointment for that. And the reality is, we're going, I want us to vote on this as a group like we do for everything else, rather than calling a particular situation out when it is literally over a process If it was over the fact that an individual was a problem as an individual, which could certainly face us at some point, then I would understand separating it out. But there's been no problem expressed with the individual simply with the length of term and so I find just don't find it would be appropriate to vote them separately which is why I made the motion I did. Okay well I move to separate them out. I don't move. I don't have a rule that allows for that Darcy. That's not in our town council rules and you cannot just invoke Roberts rules when it's convenient. That's not in our rules as a town council. Oh, do you know anything about that. I don't I would have to look it up. It's not in our rules that doesn't mean that Roberts rules can be invoked at the expense of what our town council rules say. Okay, well, I already expressed earlier that I wanted to separate it out so I find it really strange that you would just go ahead and make the motion when I've said that I wanted to separate them out because I think we didn't want to separate it out. We all said that except you only takes one person, one person, but Roberts rules is not compelling here. You don't get to play that card. Why not. Why because that's not what we worked under. We were under our town council rules. Okay, let's think about just because you think you can do something. It doesn't mean it's a good idea to do something. You know, so I just want to put that in. I find it very strange that that this committee is somehow not allowing me to vote the way I want to on on something, you know, the whole package down. Can't know if we wish with the motion was to to accept the term the recommendation for terms for three people, and you vote yes or no, and you can vote no. Just to put a little bit of precedent, there was an instance on OCA with Public Shade Tree Committee where Darcy you objected to only one of the people who are being put forward. And so I believe in that case you abstained from the whole package, but even then your issues with one person we didn't separate the people out, you just abstained on the package and then explained in we explained in the report, where your abstention came from. And so I think that that's what we're trying to get to is you can explain why you vote the way you do in the report. But even when we've had an issue with one individual we've never separated out appointments, either on this committee or on OCA. And so it seems like that's for a reason, and it seems better to do what you did last time with Public Shade Tree Committee. All right, is your hand up, Alyssa? Yeah, I just want to talk about the practical aspect of the vote. I get that you're very frustrated with me and I and I understand and I accept that. At the same time, the reality is, when we vote, we vote by majority. The majority recommendation is going to go to the town council. It's not going to be a full page of explanation about one vote that doesn't like this term. There will be an explanation, but there will also be an explanation that the rest of us thought it was okay. It won't just say nothing about what the rest of us said. And so when it gets to the town council level, there will again be a majority vote that is likely to make the appointments. I'm not sure that we need to fight about how we did the vote as long as you get to explain your very valid concern about one year term for a holdover versus a three year term. Okay, I guess I guess I'm just going to talk about how to respond to the fact that that somehow rather the committee thinks I shouldn't be able to vote the way I want to. So, and it, I don't think that it, that we need to have a practice of all of us doing the same thing each time voting for the whole group together we don't have to do that. But, but, you know, I, I, it's not worth arguing about this much. So why don't we go ahead with Alyssa's motion. And, you know, I am going to file some kind of complaint about it with Lynn, because I don't think that you should have done this. And so just, is there any other discussion about it. Is that a hand that you want. Is it your hand still relevant, Alyssa, it would perhaps not be as helpful as I might want to be to say Lynn's not the boss of me, but that is your obviously your prerogative. Okay, so Alyssa, this is a roll call vote. And we're back at the beginning of the alphabet thank you for always rotating that I appreciate it yes my vote is yes. Okay, and my vote is no Dorothy. Yes. Evan. Yes. George. Yes. Okay. So, what time do we have, is it, is it time yet. We got 10 minutes. All right, so they will be forwarded so that they go to in the report to the December 7 council meeting. We should probably talk for a minute about our agenda for the next meeting. Which I'm assuming is going to be part two of the public way policy. Talk more about that because we have to get it back by January 25. Probably the second day of surveillance technology by law, because they will have their answers by then and Paul is has promised to get the staff feedback by next week to them. So those would be the two big items. I would hope that we could start the North common on December 17, maybe. Would that work for you, Paul. Yes, we're prepared for that. And what are your thoughts, Dorothy and George about when you want to go forward with your parking issue. Well, we're waiting on go for it says they're working on it. And I don't see any point in rushing him on that. So he has to come back to George and me and then we have to talk about it with him. So, I'm not sure we're ready for the next meeting, but George, what do you think we could take 10 minutes of the committee's time and give them a sense not right now, but at a future meeting soon and just give them a sense of what we're doing to get immediate feedback. If you all put up your hands and say, no, no, stop doing that. That would be useful. But so it'd be perhaps at the next meeting if there's time and I don't think we'd need much. And we might also have something back from Guilford by that point. So it could be more specific. I could explain what we're trying to accomplish in a succinct way and get some feedback from you as to whether you think we should that's a good idea where they should stop or whatever. But we wouldn't be a formal at length, you know, report would just be an update. That could be useful. But which is what we would have done tonight. But we don't have go for it to report so waiting another two weeks. And if there's no time, we can still wait, but it'll be an update. It's sometimes hard to tell how much these topics are going to, how much time they're going to take. Well, this would be 10 minutes and if we spot more than 10 minutes and 30 seconds, you could just mute me or just cut us off. It's your decision, but I mean, time would be up to you. Yeah, I think that we could probably, if you would be ready for it at our next meeting, just in case we have the time that would be good. We may have that at our next meeting. I think we can get back in two ways. If it turns out we don't have much time. We would present it and you could, you could send feedback, you know, which we would then have written out for the to start the next meeting. I mean, we could be very flexible because we are not time dated on this one. And we, as we saw at our last town council meeting. All of a sudden it was just raining from heaven topics for TSO. So we do not control our agenda that much. So we can be very adjustable. Right. And Paul, could you tell us other issues that are coming down the pike. The other one is the illegal discharge stormwater bylaw that the council needs to approve by June 30th, 2021. So we want to introduce that to the council. I forget which we've chosen a meeting in December, one of the two meetings in December, and then that will most likely we think we'll get depends on what the council decides will most likely get referred to TSO. And that'll be a sort of more of a technical complex conversation, I think. And it's sometimes required by the state for us to approve. And there's a couple of other water and sewer bylaws coming after the first of the year. Yeah. Okay, so do we want to really, Evan. Can I ask you a question regarding North Common. I guess I'm thinking. So the big, the big question right now is before CPAC, and there's a request. Do we know when CPAC will have a recommendation on that? I think they're voting tonight actually. So we'll have the CPAC recommendation by the time we talk about the North Common. If they act, if they decide back tonight, yes. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Why, why don't we, I think that's, if you look at the work plan FYI, all of these things are listed on there. And that can give you an idea of, of what we just said. I think I do have to revise it a little bit. So, shall we approve our minutes? We have our, our, our December 12th and our December 5th. And Emily, if you notice the December 5th minutes were, were more extensive. I think at Dorothy's request. You mean, you mean November. I mean, yeah, November. November. That's all right. November 5 and November 12. Yes. So November. Okay. So, do we have any discussion or issues with them? I have none. Okay. So I think I will do them both together then. We approve the. November 5th and November 12th. 2020 minutes. I can second that motion. All right. I say yes. Okay. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Melissa. Staying. Okay. So they are approved. And FYI, I don't know if you've looked at SharePoint lately, but I spent a lot of time getting everything organized on there. All of the, all of the minutes, all the reports, all the town manager appointments. If you look in any of those folders, they're all, everything is there. And so I'm trying to get it on our webpage. So that. You know, we have it available for everybody. But it's, it's all, it's all. It's all available. And I even. Have the years and the dates and the right order that took a long time to reorganize. But it's all there. Many, many thanks, Darcy. Many, many thanks. Being a chair of a committee. A lot of time at the computer. Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up Darcy, because it's so useful. I hadn't quite felt like I'd accomplished that in some of my previous work on the council. But, but of course I want something more. And what I want more is if you look at not in SharePoint, it's beautiful. Is if you look at the GOL webpage. And I know this just because. I was just working on a proclamation is on the side. They have all their things about like how they do their reviews. They have all the things that they need to know about. And then they ask questions on what's a proclamation, what's a citation, all that kind of stuff. It's right there on the side of their. GOL webpage. And since we have a process, right? That other people need to know about, it would be great if we could put the current version of that, which is thankfully in our resources folder. If we could put that on ours too. On the TSO page on the side right now, our TSO page on the side is kind of. We're going to have people coming to us. And we could have it right there for them. I think that's a good idea. I'd like to have our videos linked there too, which I think either GOL or CRC has. So yeah, I did start the conversation with Athena about getting all that stuff up there. So, but I'll add the review process. That would be good. All right. I think we're done on to the next meeting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I declare as adjourned at. Six 26. See you in four minutes. Okay. Great. Bye bye.