 We're going to talk about the interrogation of Sarah Boone. Greg, what else about the videos we're going to watch? We'll keep this pretty short. She was arrested in 2020 for this murder. I think she was charged with second degree murder. This is the Orange County Sheriff's Department, and there is same two investigators are talking to her. This is a day later than when they went to talk to her on site. So, to your recollection, no videos on Sunday. Not that I'm aware of. Okay. I mean, I guess maybe I took a picture of them, the two of Tess and the dogs, and George and them dancing, but I mean, or it's just Tess. Okay. So, I have something that I want to show you that we found, and it was from your phone. Can you move it around, Glenn? Your battery's about to die. Let me. These two last a lot longer than that. I don't know what happened. Okay. Let me just grab something. All right. They're asking, because you had a look on your face when she asked you if you've ever done that before. You look kind of shocked and... No. Okay. Why did you say it like that? I don't think you all understand who I am. Where? Well, tell me. I mean, I've always been a straight A student. I am an outstanding mother to my son. I excel at everything. I would not do that. You wouldn't lock somebody in a suitcase? Well, I didn't like completely lock it. I mean, I opened it with one finger. I left enough in there for him to get out. I wasn't planning on going upstairs and going to sleep. Okay. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so what should have become an oath moment turns into a well moment. When you are an interrogator, everything is about control. Everything is about me being in charge of the entire environment. Not about going in with a dead battery and actually the perp looking over and going, hey, your battery's dying. This is an opportunity to show a video that is very compromising. And what do they do? They come in and bumble that. That's not a good start to an interrogation. She's calm. I don't know why she's as calm as she is, but maybe she was just plowed when this thing happened. But there's no planning in prep here. She calmly points that out. Her breathing does increase. You can see it because we're looking down on top of her. You see her breathing rate increase and then she loses fluency. And Chase, you'll appreciate this. She says, just like the guy from Steven McDaniel video. So she's lost fluency. And then she goes to a resume statement that is one of the dumbest I've ever heard. I'm a straight A student. This is a 40 something year old woman who zips a guy up in a suitcase and that's her defense. That's not a good defense. So if I were interrogating her, I'd anchor her admission that she knew it wouldn't be good for him to stay in the suitcase that long and start from there. I would say, why'd you leave the hole number one? And she'd say, well, I left the hole because he needs some air. Well, then why'd you go upstairs? Because she says, I wouldn't have left him zipped up and gone upstairs. So she's got some cognitive dissonance here just right by saying, look, I left a hole because I knew it was dangerous. I wouldn't have gone upstairs if. So right there, you got the beginning of the whole problem. If you're already convinced of guilt, which you are when you use this process, this is a read style process, ideally, but this is a read style process. You start off convinced of guilt and you're looking for confession. This is not an intelligence interrogation. They should anchor what she starts off with by saying I left it open enough that he could get some air and I didn't plan to go upstairs. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so here's a universal in terms of how all of us behave no matter who you are or who you think you are is we are all trying to defy gravity in some way. We're all at most points in our life in some kind of battle against gravity no matter what sex you are, where you were born, who nurtured you. We're all trying to work with gravity in this particular situation. The sticks and rubber bands that are holding her body together are not working at their full capacity and so we get this convex abdomen where gravity is taken hold of her shoulders and it's pulling her down. Now you could say it's an abdominal retreat and maybe there's some nervousness there and I think that would be true as well but as the shoulders are rolled forward and she's so sunk into that chair, I think she's really feeling the pressure of this whole situation and it's dragging her down. If you want some interesting work on that concave abdomen, Cuddy, who's well known in the body language world did some interesting papers on that abdominal retreat in pubescent females. Very, very interesting how the introduction of estrogen and body image will cause females to become concave there. Anyway, I'm with you Greg. Straight A's, outstanding mother, excel at everything. Well, that's just grandiose at this point and so Greg, I think you're right. She doesn't show a lot of nervousness in the way that we'd expect it. She seems quite calm. She's got them kind of messing up clearly right from the get go. I don't think it's a tactic of theirs to have a dodgy battery at all. I think it's an absolute mistake but yet she is concave and she's going for these grandiose images as well to prove herself not looking good from the get go even with some terrible mistakes going on from the interviewers. Scott, what do you got on this one? All right, I'm not going to focus as much on her as I am on the interrogation. This is the worst interrogation I've ever seen in my life. It's not just, it's not bungled and nothing went wrong. The whole thing is this is not an interrogation. It's just some people fussing in a room. That's all it sends up being. After she brings up the part about her boyfriend being in a suitcase, in walks that detective with a new cord for the computer. After this guy's been talking, the other detective has been asking her questions and while she's answering this question, he gets up and walks over and starts dicking around with a wall plug. While she's talking, while she's telling him the answer to the question he asked. And then when she finishes her answer, he says, okay, gets up, doesn't look at her and shuts the door. I was dumbfounded by that. And you could say, this is a technique. This is some kind of, it's not, there's never seen this before, never heard this. And you'll see it's not a technique because it doesn't get any better than this. The body language of disinterest and disrespect is incredible here that they have for, there's no rapport building, there's nothing. They, I don't think they know what they're doing. And we're gonna see that as we go through that. Maybe, maybe they're burned out, but they're disinterested, it just floored me. Chase, what do you got? Absolutely agree. While this isn't a great interrogation, the setup of this interrogation room is great. There's no table between them. There's no one blocking, sitting between the suspect and the door. This is the setup that we should have seen, you know, in lots of other videos. Those two rules of thumb should be in every interrogation room. We see it in this one, I just wish the interrogators were there too. I too am a long time victim of Panasonic Toughbook battery life. I can attest they are awful. But there's a lot of stuff there. You're also noticed that the door is not blocked. You know, there's a clear line to the door. That's a good important point that I've always heard in training and I've seen it. I've seen the results in real life. If the interrogators had the ability to spot behavior, they would know that one of her biggest objections to confession would be feeling like she isn't known or appreciated. And what do they do? She's not known, they don't even look at her. They don't build rapport with her. They don't do anything to make exactly what she needs. And not everyone needs to feel known and appreciated. Some people need different things and we'll get into that in the next couple. That's all I got. Yeah, let me add one thing. I taught interrogation and I've seen few that were this bad because at least my students listened to what the person is saying and didn't say, well, hold on. Don't tell me that. I want to ask you something else. That's the first step in interrogation. Listen. So, to your recollection, no videos on Sunday. Not that I'm aware of. Okay. I get my mind, maybe it's like a picture of them, the two of Tess and the dogs and George and them dancing, but I mean, or it's just Tess. Okay, so I have something that I want to show you that we found and it was from your phone. Can you see it? Can you move it around, go ahead. Your battery's about to crash. Sure, I know. Oh. It used to last a lot longer than that, I don't know what happened. Okay, let me just grab something. All right, simply asking, because you had a look on your face when she asked you if you've ever done that before. You look kind of shocked and. No. Why did you say it like that, like? I don't think you all understand who I am. Well, tell me. I mean, I've always been a straight A student. I am an outstanding mother to my son. I excel at everything. I would not do that. You wouldn't lock somebody in a suitcase? Well, I didn't like completely lock it. I mean, I opened it with one finger. I left enough in there for him to get out. Okay. And I wasn't planning on going upstairs and going to sleep. Okay. Phone, don't you want to know what's on it? Yes, please, I don't want to see it if that's okay. Well, it's on your phone and you can either explain it or we take it for what it is. Yeah. We're just trying to give you an opportunity to tell us what's going on. That's it. Two minutes. I'll go first on this one. Chase, I'm gonna have to go against you on the setup of the room. I think that the person you're talking to needs something. They need something to lean on, just a little something, just that corner. I'd put that thing, I'd get him so they're in the corner right there. I wouldn't sit right next to him. The thing that scared me half the death when he stood up and put his gun in her face, I'll put his side over there. All she had to do is reach up there, grab that and pop both of them and she's out. You know, then go down the hall if she knew how to work her way out of that. That completely freaked me out when he did that. His gun's right there in her face. It would just be really easy to get ahold of it. And I really think people need a thing to protect themselves just a little bit so they can at least get some comfort in there for themselves so you can help them relax. Because if not, they're going to be all, they don't know where to put their hands and look the way she's sitting. She's sitting all bunched up and uncomfortable. And with their personalities, they're not going to be able to get her to loosen up a little bit. Just a bit, I think it's just a mess. Before they can get the video ready, she starts telling them that she doesn't want to watch it. She gets sick, she hadn't been sleeping. They miss their window here for shock value for this thing completely. There's no way to say, really, what's this? You said you didn't have a thing and let's watch this. They don't shut up the whole time. There's not a spot in this entire interrogation where they're quiet more than 20 seconds, 15, 20 seconds tops. She says, I don't know how much I can take. There's the door to go in. Take what? What do you know about these, what do you think about this video? Tell me how you just break it up and give it to them so they can start talking. And then she's pretty still while she's watching the video. No emotion, no, oh my God, no nothing, especially if she hasn't seen it before and she's not aware of it. There's no surprise there. There's no shock there. There's no horror there. She just comes back in her chair and she says, I don't want to watch it, please. And they turn it off for her at that point. And then so far we've seen no structure to an interrogation. There's no, there doesn't seem to be a goal. The woman's detective talks and then the guy detective talks and they're asking two different questions. And just as he finishes the question and Sarah starts to answer, that woman starts, the woman starts asking another question. Nobody's in control. Nobody is leading. There's no teamwork here. There's no structure to what's going on. This thing is headed right for the squatter. I mean, it's in the squatter. There's no, and I don't think there's a way to get it out. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so Scott, I think you missed out on the shock value of the shirt. That's where they're going for the shock value. That's okay. That's where it is. That's where clearly, you know, this might be your first rodeo on this Scott. So clearly you haven't seen this technique. Okay, not yet. He's leaving with that shirt straight down to Bojangles nightclub. That is exactly where that shirt fits in. What is he wearing? What is he wearing? Number one, but then he's got the badge there, which, you know, automatically just, you know, he's got the weapon, he's got the badge, he's got this audacious shirt. I mean, there's nothing comfortable about this situation. And look, we're not saying you have to make criminals comfortable, you know, but if you want them to open up to you, you have to give them some basic, fundamental comfort levels. This isn't doing it. She goes straight into it. She takes that victim stance. You guys are scaring me. I don't know how much I can take. I continuously throw up. I don't sleep. So she's taking this opportunity of the stress of this situation to cast herself in the victim. She goes more concave. They're not picking up on any of this because they're dealing with their tech right now. And they haven't, I mean, you know, that release of the video should be built up to. It seems, I don't know how long they've been there, but in this tape, it seems almost immediately. There we go. There's our ace card. Let's just throw it. Oh, we just screwed it up. Oh no, never mind. I mean, it's terrible. From the soundtrack in the actual tape that they're showing and you can probably find that on the internet somewhere. It's pretty grim. So I don't suggest you should go and look at it. But if you want to get a closer listen to that soundtrack, is she glib in that or is she drunk? What is it about her demeanor there that means she can be so kind of light around what she's saying? Is it slurred? Is she had more than half a bottle or a bottle? Not sure, or is there a glibness to it? Again, this is a question on my part. I don't have an answer to that, but so far, man, that the fashion has done it for me. Chase, what do you got on this one? I don't want to hit too hard on the investigators because many, many times, I'm standing in front of a room with one of those little microphones with 55 detectives, homicide detectives. And I do a show of hands at day one. Who's had interrogation training? Maybe, or maybe four hands go up, maybe. So a lot of times it would astonish most people how little interrogation training police departments invest in. So here is some interrogation training for you based on this one clip. When you hear somebody's objections and initial requests in an interrogation room, objections and initial requests, or in almost any high stress situation, they are using behavioral patterns that work for them in the past. Greg says this all the time, the organism does what makes it successful. We carry a lot more from childhood into adulthood than we really realize. These patterns here are extremely revealing about her psychology and her behavioral patterns. Here's the question you should be asking yourself when you see anything even remotely similar to what you're seeing here. What is being used to escape a stressful situation? In Sarah's case, she's using fear, not injecting it, but talking about being scared. You guys are scaring me. And she's using being overwhelmed. I don't know how much I can take. These two things alone got her out of trouble before I guarantee it. And if you're the interrogator, you will now know that will be the way that, you know, she used to be to get out of stuff in the extreme and she's going to do it later. If you don't jump on them and use some training to stop those from the beginning, from the beginning of the interrogation or to preempt some of those objections because that's gonna be the barrier to a confession. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, let's talk about interrogation for a minute. When we talk about interrogation, there are really two real schools of thought in today's world. One is read. The read technique goes from the supposition you've done all the work and you know the person's guilty and you're going after information and use things that we refer to as themes. They were ways of letting a person out and feel okay about telling you that. In the Sharpian version, Hans Sharp, the brilliant Luftwaffe interrogator who used non-coercion on Americans, what he did was work your psyche. Work your psyche, make you feel better about talking, gain trust, get you to do whatever it took. Either one of these has a certain set of approaches. If you're going from read, you would give them rational outlets for why this happened at this point. That's the way you go. If you're going from Sharp, when she brought up those accomplishments in the last video, you'd say, tell me more about that. You must be pretty smart. You start working your ego. You're working your right back into the same place so that when you go to say, look, be rational and she's told you how brilliant she is, you put her at odds with herself. None of that's happening here. And Chase, I agree with you. Few people get good interrogation training. It's the reason we all have jobs. If you watch her when this whole thing starts, she's got a lip compression and internal dialogue. She does this. She's withholding something. We don't know what that is. Could be emotion, could be other information, but she's withholding something as this female detective sets that laptop up. And she goes to internal dialogue. She's thinking to herself something about what's going on. It could be, hey, what the hell are they doing? And she does this when she says, you're scaring me. Well, we associate this with real stress relief because you're massaging those muscles right in that forehead that show concern and grief and all of those things and they get knotted over time. I would say when she starts working through there and working through this thing, the why question is the most powerful one you can ask. It always works. Children ask it for a reason. When she says, you're scaring me, I'd say, why are we scaring you? Why? Simple question. You get her started in the process of answering. And then she asks the question, is it long? And Scott, when she says, is it long and I don't know how much I can take, hold on. I thought you didn't know this video. You tell me how long it is and you tell me why you can't take it. That's what I wanna know. That's all. I'd stop right there. That's a source lead. I always tell you guys, when a person brings something up, they're willing to talk about it. If you bring it up, they may not be, but that is a missed opportunity. They don't pay attention to her. They're not listening to her and they're looking to each other. They came in with a plan and this is the number one problem with interrogators. If I go in the room full of people who think they're good interrogators, most of them will say, I've always won arguments. That's not an interrogator. That's an arguer. That's our knucklehead from the walk of shop parade who has always won by barraging people with BS or some other way. Good interrogation is not that. I may look stupid just to win in a good interrogation. It's all about getting what I need, either confession or information and going after it. So the source leads are powerful. Okay, then this prop thing, no win to say when, turn that damn thing off and turn and listen to what the source is saying, what the perpetrator is saying. She's moved from internal voice to emotional eye accessing at this point. Her torso mark to your point is caving in. She's shrinking into that chair. If you turn right now and talk to her and you use the right approaches, the right themes, you're gonna get this person to start bleeding information because she's on the verge of going emotional and going into a shell. That's what you're looking for and that's the beginning of it. You don't have to watch this if you tell us what happened is the answer. You should say, I agree. Just tell us what happened. I'm just trying to get the bottom of it and this is what we can see. And she's almost moving into what we call it, I call it clamshell exoskeleton where her feet are crossed under a chair and her voice is dropping and her body is caving in. Guys, that's the, and that chin is covering her throat. That's the beginning of pre-confession body language and we know exactly how to get it to happen. What you don't do is go headlong at her and attack her. What you do is go, okay, tell us exactly what happened. Soften it, get there. And regardless of what space you have, I mean, you're both, we all have opinions about space. It all has to be built around mission. What usually is a doctrinal change from this is you carry no weapon whatsoever in any interrogation room. I'll go back to my seer days when you had a guy named Rocky Gonzalez who struck a guy and he came out flying out of the room. We went and found out what happened. He said, I hit the guy and he turned into Bruce Lee. You never know who's in the room with you. You never know who's in the room with you. So we don't wear any kind of gear that they can get their hands on or any kind of weapons. Bad doctrine. And this is a bad start to an interrogation regardless of what caused it. Just my opinion. Yeah. Now, if you don't know who we are, we're at the behavior panel. Now I'm Scott Rouse. I created the only online true crime course with Greg Hartley. Mark, what list do we do that again? Just do your, don't do the true crime thing. Different Star Wars. You can write that stuff, but you can't say it. All right. All right. If you don't know who we are, we're at the behavior panel. I'm Scott Rouse. I'm a body language expert and analyst. I created the, God, now my brain is going to, I'm trying to, I'm trying to. Let's go to the next one. You guys are scaring me. Sorry. Phone, don't you want to know what's on it? Yes, please. I don't want to see it if that's okay. Well, it's on your phone. You can either explain it or we take it for what it is. Yeah. We're just trying to give you the opportunity to tell us what's going on. That's it. Two fingers hanging out. I flipped them over. And you're flipping them in different positions and him saying that he can't breathe. And you're saying. This is upside down. So in order for him to have gotten into it. It was flipped up. Right. It was flipped up normal. Yeah. Like as if you're packing something. So this is upside down. Guys, this is killing me right now. So this image is upside down. And then this small video that occurred 11 minutes later. It's flipped over the other way. Closer to your dining room table. Okay. Now he's obviously still in there. So he didn't, how did that, how did it go from the back to the front? I flipped it. Okay. My plan was not to go upstairs and go to sleep. Well, that's what you did. But not intentional. No, you told me you went upstairs because you were getting ready for bed. Stop here. Okay. But show me where you can see any fingers coming out. Cause there's the end. It's in his head right here. So going like this, rather than going all the way up, it's like this. But why is he saying I can't breathe? And why is he pushing on it as if he can't get out? And it doesn't show a hole. There's no hole. There's no fingers. I don't see his fingers. There's no hole. I don't know what you want me to tell you. Like I don't know, like what you want me to tell you. I'm just showing you. I'm just telling you what we see and what we've heard from the other video. I understand. I understand. He's begging for you to let him out. You sound, you're laughing in the beginning and then in the end it sounds kind of like a, no. It's not malicious. Well, same. It's not malicious. What is that? What is f***ing you mean to you? Well, like if you were to, if I were to tell my partner. Oh, like he does. Like, I get told everything about a white woman. So I, my intention was not to leave him in there. Please understand that. My intention was not to leave him in there. But you went upstairs thinking that he could get himself out, but the video shows, and I see his fingers and then 30 minutes later, he didn't show and he's telling you. And I can't read. Do you think he's not able to get out? You told me he was laughing and I, we were before the video. There's, there's no way I've got in there. Wow, that's, wow. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, let me give you three poor choices of words. Number one, you're killing me. Look, you're in there for murder. You're killing me as a bad choice of words because it's a tether. I can quickly say, well, let's talk about you and this. So there's an opportunity. My plan. Okay, you just said, look, this happened by accident. You didn't say accident, but if you're trying to get away with something and say it was an accident, my plan or bad choice of words. Now, whether she's conscious enough to realize that or not, that's why I say I don't think she's conscious of this. I think she doesn't realize what kind of trouble she's in and she's just feeding into this. She also finishes a thought. When the woman brings up, I think it was not malicious. That sure puts you in a bad place. Poor choice of words from the beginning and they don't use elicitation there. Well, what do you think killing is? They have a flawed plan because they're not listening. They're there to argue and not interrogate. If you're listening, it would change your path. Look, I hate beating these guys up because you're right. They don't get enough training. I will mark have to add your comedy for just a minute and say, if you're Chris North, you have to wear Chris North clothes. And if you don't know who Chris North is, go look at all the cop shows and he dresses all kinds of wild ways. This guy looks a lot like him and maybe that's why he's dressing that part. They're here to argue, not interrogate. She leans into the evidence. I love it. She leans over to look at the evidence and they don't lean on her then. She uses that my plan. That's a push-pull word. Anytime you use something like my plan, I thought there was no plan. Then when I go, why did you leave a hole? Why did you leave a hole? Because you needed air? Then why'd you go upstairs? You can't have both of those. They're not congruent. So you put her at odds with self and then you go back after it. It's not intentional. Not intentional. Sounds like a guilty person saying it was on accident. She's prayerful when she says, what do you want me to do? She does that little chipmunk thing again, or a hamster thing. And then she finishes the person's thoughts about malice. That doesn't sound good. These guys could have leaned in there and said, hold on, Sarah. I wasn't gonna say malicious. Let's talk about that word. What does that mean to you? That's the way you get a person to start telling you something about what's going on. And then he does get it. He almost gets it. He goes in and he says something that causes her to say, like he does me. When he says, what does that feel mean? Like he does me, but they miss it. Again, they push and disparage her instead of going after it. If this is read, where's the narrative? This is sharp. Where's the approach? So we gotta have somewhere in there. We start to figure this out. If you pay attention when there's a really great indicator that I think read would be powerful. When this female detective starts to rationalize what happened, watch the body language ever open up. It's powerful. It tells you that she's susceptible. But then she goes right back to the argument and says, but the video shows and you see the body language shift. Really hard for me to watch. Scott, what do you got? I think even with training, I think these two are burnout or just don't wanna be there. And we're gonna see some examples later on that would prove my theory there. I don't think any kind of structure would help them. I think they need to get rid of them and start all over again. He's sitting back in his chair, running his own game. He's doing something else. They're asking two different questions almost at the same time. And when she says, I don't know what you want me to tell you, he should have said, one of them should have said, look, I'm gonna tell him I did this and just everybody hush. And then go on to tell me why. There's no questioning. There's no, there's nobody in charge. There's no, nobody's leading. It's just bouncing around the room. And then I think this, the guy detective is the most uncomfortable interrogator I've ever seen in my life. He can't sit still, can't keep his fingers out of his nose. He can't stop scooching around, squishing around. It just looks like something's wrong. It looks like he's the guilty one. When we're looking at it from this point of view. And she says, my plan was not to go upstairs and go to sleep. They say, but that's what you did. Come on, man. Even on TV shows, they know where to go after that. But they don't, they're not even following their TV show and movie structure. There's no structure here whatsoever. Her body language is pretty much the same as it has been. Like you were saying, Greg, she's doing the same thing. She's got her baseline, her basic setups that she does and uses to get rid of her stress and built up tension and the protective things. Everything seems the same, but this interrogation is not an interrogation. It's just a fuss. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, this, I agree with the guys. This would have been a great opportunity because in this audio or in this video, there's a thing like it, she says, you choked me. I would be on that and I would say, well, I know you don't want to listen to it and I'm sorry. We don't have to do that right now. We're going to have to, but I wanted to ask you about one thing in there when it said he was choking you. And that happened to my sister and it's disgusting. And I wanted to ask you if that is a true statement or you made that up. So now we can get clarity there and now we're starting to project. And which right after this rationalization, we've shown that she's susceptible to that bone project. I'm gonna leave the rest of it alone. This video, if you watch this video again, which you're going to right after I finished talking here, this is as if you interviewed Dwight Schrute from Dunder Mifflin. That's the character we're seeing across the table there. So I got that. I want to go for it. Yeah. Mark, you can have a turn this time. Yeah, let me jump in. Look, look, here would be my structure, okay? Watch and listen, watch and listen, watch and listen and ask questions out of curiosity. And there's this moment right up the front where she retreats right back. It's a big movement from her baseline of being subdued by gravity. She goes right back and she says, I don't want to watch it, please. I don't want to watch it, please. Well, my question, having seen that and heard what she said, my question out of curiosity would be, what most causes you to not want to watch this? I mean, it's just a curious question. Maybe it'll get me somewhere. Maybe it'll get me nowhere, but it isn't arguing with her. And just as everybody else has said, they are just arguing with her. They're literally putting forward what they have as evidence. Good evidence, yeah? And then she's responding and then they're arguing with her response. And so everyone's getting frustrated as far as I can see. Everybody's getting frustrated. They talk over each other. They all talk over each other. She ends up standing up and helping out. At that point, I would go, she's in control now. It's like, I'm almost on her side, going, take it, take this one. Why not? Why not take this one? Like, you've got this one now. He's there, he's exhaling. It's clear indicators of his frustration or boredom or I think both upset with it. The female interviewer is mirroring and escalating her tone. So not only is it argumentative, but she's taking the same tone as a subject and then they're escalating each other and the male just continues to get kind of irritated and restless and just as you were saying, right up the front, Scott, right here is my last note. I've got, who is in control here? Who's in control here? Like, nobody's in control apart from the subject, I think, who is in the most control there, but then kind of gives it up because I don't think she quite knows how to take control of this moment. I would, I think I'd have said, well, I'll be going now and, you know, give me a call when you've sorted out your tech and stuff and you've got your together. I'd have been out of that. Wow, Mark uses, Mark cusses. Wow. Wow, that's a first. It's that bad. It's that bad. Two and a half years and there it is. Wow, unbelievable, unbelievable. All right, if you don't know who we are, we're the behavior panel and I'm Scott Rouse I'm a body language expert and analyst and I trained law enforcement in the military and interrogation body language. I created the number one online body language course, body language tactics with Greg Hartley, Mark. I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language help people all over the world to stand out, win trust and gain credibility every time they communicate, including some of the leaders of the G7, Chase. Hey, I'm Chase Hughes. I did 20 years in the US military, wrote the number one bestselling book on behavior, profiling, persuasion and influence and I changed people's lives, teaching those things today. Greg Hartley, I'm a former army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor for the 10 books on body language and behavior and put together that number one body language course at bodylanguagetactics.com with Scott Rouse. Mark said it. Yeah, this is some of the worst I've ever seen. You know what I wonder? What I wonder, do they think this video is enough? They don't need her to say anything. I thought about that too. I thought about that too. And I thought maybe they're going for it. Maybe they're trying to go for the I did it on purpose thing, but they can't because they have a goal, but they don't know how to get there. No, it's just for sure. They're not, there's not enough conspiracy between them. There's not enough, they're not breathing together. They're not a partnership. They're all over the shop. I mean, if you and I went, if any of us went, hey, let's go in, but let's really mess this one up. We'd be doing it together. We'd be like, exactly. A great performance of like, it would be the greatest ever, you know, failure of a computer, you know, that would cause a reaction. Like this is just a, it's a show. That's happy. They just don't know what. Look, I can tell they don't know what they're doing. It's, that part's very clear because they don't know anything about the psychology part of it, any approaches, no structure to the interrogation, no questioning. Last time we talked to you, you said that you put him in the suitcase. You had two fingers hanging out. I flipped him over. Yeah, right. I flipped him over. And that's where it was. There's two different videos and a still picture where, yeah, it shows you flipping in the different positions and him saying that he can't breathe. And you're saying. He was upside down. So in order for him to have gotten into it, it was flipped up. Right. It was flipped up normal. Yeah. Like as if you're packing something. So this is upside down. Guys, this is killing me right now. So this image is upside down. And then this small video that occurred 11 minutes later, it's flipped over the other way, closer to your dining room table. Okay. Now he's obviously still in there. So he didn't, how did that, how did it go from the back to the front? I flipped it. Okay. My plan was not to go upstairs and go to sleep. Well, that's what you did. But not intentional. No. You told me you went upstairs because. What? You were getting ready for bed. Stop here. Okay, but. Where's here? Show me where you can see any fingers coming out. Cause there's the end. It's in his head right here. So going like this, rather than going all the way up, it's like this. But why is he saying I can't breathe? And why is he pushing on it as if he can't get out? And it doesn't show a hole. There's no hole. There's no fingers. I don't see his fingers. There's no hole. I don't know what you want me to tell you. Like I don't know like what you want me to tell you. I'm just showing you. I'm just telling you what we see and what we've heard from the other video. I understand. He's begging to let, for you to let him out. You sound, you're laughing in the beginning and then in the end it sounds kind of like a, no. It's not malicious. Well, same. It's not malicious. Then what is that? What is you mean to you? Well, like if you were to, if I were to tell my daughter. Oh, like he does. Like, I get told everything about a white woman. So I, my intention was not to leave him in there. Please understand that. My intention was not to leave him in there. But you went upstairs thinking that he could get him to out. But the video shows. I told him. And I see his fingers. He'll be out there any minute. And then 30 minutes later he didn't show. And he's telling me. And I can't believe he's not able to get out. Do you think he's joking? You told me he was laughing and I, We were before. The video, there's no laughing. We both got in there? Both of us were. So how long was he in there for? Like this video is on 1112 when it starts. So was he in there for like a long time prior to recording this? No. No. So it goes from funny to no longer funny. But you're the only one laughing. But I didn't think that he was like panicky. Like I didn't, I, So pushing up on a suitcase saying Sarah, Sarah, Sarah. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. George has done that in the past before too. Where it's just like he thinks that he's well with me kind of thing. Where it's like, I don't think. Well he's never been locked in a suitcase. But no, he couldn't get out. So it's kind of, I thought it was the boy crawling wolf, crying wolf kind of thing. And again, my plan. But nowhere in there is he laughing if he joking. He is begging. And you're the only one laughing. Okay. And you're the only one saying derogatory comments. Like you're mad. No. Please don't, I don't mean to sound negative. And I don't know if I can say this, but like it's like you guys are kind of trying to like feed me. No, I'm just trying to show you a video that you no longer want to watch because you probably don't want to know the outcome of how, and what you said. Well, I know what. You know what's on that video now? No. You remember making that video? No. Why don't you remember making the video? Probably because we have been drinking. But you weren't drunk. No. Just because I went upstairs and, just because you're drunk doesn't mean that you. You told us at times that you were not drunk. You said that you had your wits about you. You said he had his wits about you. You said that you don't like not having your wits. In my experience, if somebody cannot remember doing something to the extent of making two videos and taking a photo, they are intoxicated. Okay. I understand where you all are coming from. Well, we're just trying to make sense of it. We're trying to figure out what you're saying. Chase, what do you got? This precisely right here is where knowing behavior comes in handy. The interviewers are trying to do their best, I think. But I think they're making what I call the academic folly. They're treating everyone as if they all respond to the exact same thing. And the reason this is so different from other interrogations you've seen is that in many of the other videos, the interrogators needed confessions and admissions to both place the suspect at the scene to begin with and then to get them to admit some form of involvement. We have those two things known. So maybe they had some level of training and they thought that they could kind of skip forward in the process. I'm not sure what was going on. But every point of resistance you're seeing here, every single point could have been prevented by knowing just a tiny bit about behavior profile that I put together in the previous video based on a 29 second clip of her talking to a police officer. All of that could have been prevented by just knowing that one 29 seconds of time. Greg? Yeah, let me tell you this. I don't think you even need to be that smart to get this one, Chase. I think what has to happen is you just need to listen to what she's saying. And she's feeding you exactly the story. She's spoon feeding them the elements of getting her to talk. Because what she says out loud was, they just don't use it, he's abusive. He's all the time up for fun things. He fakes neediness. It sounds like he got in there voluntarily and then he panicked or fakes panic. And easily, I would say, did you feel powerful because he'd always been rough with you? Yeah, I did. And then you thought he would be able to escape because you left him a little gap. Yep. And I would give her the point where she said, I went upstairs and then I went to bed and I didn't think about it. And I would then close the loop and come back and say, if that's the case, why were you so concerned about going upstairs in the beginning? You said it wasn't part of your plan. You can't have it both ways. You didn't leave him an air gap and then go upstairs and that'd not be part of your plan. You've got an issue here now. I could force her into a corner where she has to come out swinging and give me something. I don't think she is smart enough to do that. And I think you could put her at odds with herself. When she's assaulted with that, you're the only one piece. I thought she's gonna go back and say I need a lawyer because she started to back off pretty hard right there. She threw up both hands and said, that's not how it went. I think you guys are trying to feed me. My God, if you've ever been in a place where a person's giving you the information you need to break her, but they don't. The guy steps on her and says, no, he's got a plan and he's gonna stick to that plan. In the army, we have goes and no-go's at stations, meaning you pass the station, you guys are a no-go. This is a no-go all day, every day. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so look, everybody's confounded. Everybody's irritated. Everybody's confused. Until the subject says, I see where you're coming from. She's a better interviewer than they are. She's like, I see where you're coming from. I get it, I get it. So she's started to build the bridge towards them. But what do they do? Well, he says, well, we're just trying to and then continues and they both pile on top of that. She accepts, she agrees. I see where you're coming from. I get it, I get it. Well, we're just trying to and then they pile on instead of what they could do at this point to become maybe a go, which would be to say, thank you. Thanks for that. I'm sorry we've had to argue about this. Let's start again, start afresh, clean slate, take us through it, what happened from the start? It'd be a great time to just reset. Now she's in, now she's trying to make agreement. I think she's trying to make agreement because it's chaos there and she's under stress and she needs to know somebody's in control. Somebody's calling this one. So she's gonna start calling it and creating the concord and the agreement. Scott, what do you got on this one? The fact that this detective has his phone out and is texting or returning emails is bananas. I've never seen that before, never heard of that before. It's, and the further this interrogation goes, the more it becomes like that meme where those two women are sitting at a table and there's a cat on the other side and they're yelling at the cat. That's what that reminds, this is what this is starting to remind me of. There's no reason for this. This is, I keep saying the same thing but nobody's in charge, nobody's in control here. She's answering the questions they're asking her. She's answering them, she's told them about 40 times, this wasn't an accident. She's saying, yeah, I did it, but it wasn't an accident. And they're not doing anything about it. They, it's okay, yeah, it gets back to texting. Unbelievable, unbelievable, I'll leave it there. Both of us were. So how long was he in there for? Like this video is on 11-12 when it starts, so was he in there for like a long time prior to recording this? No, no. So it goes from funny to no longer funny and you're the only one laughing. But I didn't think that he was like panicky. Like I didn't, so pushing up on a suitcase saying, Sarah, Sarah, Sarah, I can't breathe. George has done that in the past before too, where it's just like he thinks that he's, well with me kind of thing, where it's like, well he's never been locked in a suitcase but now he couldn't get out, so. It's kind of, I thought it was the way of crawling wolves, crying wolves kind of thing. And again, my plan. But nowhere in there is he laughing, if he joking, he is begging. And you're the only one laughing. Okay. And you're the only one saying derogatory comments. Like you're mad. No. Please don't, I don't mean to sound negative and I don't know if I can say this, but it's like you guys are kind of trying to feed me. No, I'm just trying to show you a video that you no longer want to watch because you probably don't want to know the outcome of how and what you said. Well I know what. You know what's on that video now? No. You remember making that video? No. Why don't you remember making the video? Probably because we have been drinking. But you weren't drunk? No. Just because I went upstairs and, just because you're drunk doesn't mean that you. You told us at times that you were not drunk. You said that you had your wits about you. You said he had his wits about you. You said that you don't like not having your wits. In my experience, if somebody cannot remember doing something to the extent of making two videos and taking a photo, they are intoxicated. Okay. I understand where you all are coming from. Well, we're just trying to make sense of it. We're trying to figure out what you're saying. I understand where you all are coming from. Well, we're just trying to make sense of it. We're trying to figure out what you're saying. We're trying to figure out the video. You were trying to explain it to us. We're listening. I just did, like, we were playing and then, like, I thought it was, my plan was not to go upstairs and go to sleep. My plan was not to, he'll be up here any minute. But he willingly went upstairs and went to sleep. No one forced you to go upstairs and get ready to go. My plan wasn't also to leave him in the suitcase. So why didn't you take him out? Because I went upstairs and then I fell asleep. Why didn't you consciously think he's asking to come out? I didn't do it intentionally. What do you think is going to happen if you leave somebody in a confined space like that? Well, I thought by not giving it up all the way, it would be okay. My plan was not to leave him in the suitcase. So what was your plan? Waiting for him to come upstairs. And then when he did that, I fell asleep. You said you were up there 30 minutes after 30 minutes, somebody not coming up. Knowing that the last time you saw him and was in the suitcase 30 minutes later, you're like, maybe I should go talk about him? Maybe I shouldn't? No. That didn't cross your mind. That's like an assumption. Like that's what you all are thinking, just. We're asking. It's the whole, it's the drinking. That's what it is. It's the drinking. I thought it was like, I thought he was okay. Like, I didn't, you all. He's telling you he's not. He's telling you Sarah, I can't breathe. He saved your name and you're like, that's my name, don't wear it out. Guys, that's how we are with each other. Like he has, nobody understands our relationship. This, the whole suitcase thing never happened before. Would you leave someone else in a suitcase? All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so look, her strategy I think is that to put forward that it isn't premeditated in any way and either that's because she understands something of the law and something of what she could get convicted on and what the sentence would be or she just knows that that's a better idea to say that she's involved, obviously, but it's an accident and there is no forethought around it. Premeditated murder is obviously as pretty much as strong as you can get. So the male is always showing disagreement, pursed lips, clear pursed lips as well to show disagreement, closed and protective. This is not great body language. I mean, it could be a tactic, but I think by this point we know it's not. It's his demeanor. It's his demeanor within this. He's closed. Now, what's this turning into? Well, they're never entering into her idea. You don't have to agree with the world that she's in, but you've got to accept that that's her world and if you know she's lying, just accept that world for a bit to get in there with her. They're trying to undo that world from outside. They're trying to show evidence and go, well, whatever you're saying, doesn't fit with this outside idea. What I would suggest they should be doing is getting inside the world and dismantling it from within, from a sense of agreement, from a sense of accord and just unpicking it from inside rather than outside. So they're being judgmental. They make judgment calls. They're being moral with her. They're kind of going, well, why would you do that? Well, that's not the right thing to do. Well, that's just judgment and morals. And also they're attacking the norms of relationship. She puts a norm forward that says, hey, you know, it's kind of a thing you do is to stick somebody in a suitcase and kind of play around with that. Well, look, it may not be a norm for me or a norm for you, but you've got to get an acceptance of that norm to be able to unpick it from the outside. They're arguing the idea. Let's go in nowhere good. Scott, what do you got on this one? All right, he says, you explain it to us. We're listening. And then he looks down at his phone and doesn't pay attention to her anymore. And then she's still in protective mode. Like you're saying, she's got her arms really close to her body, all that. It's staying with her baseline of the behaviors we've seen at this point. And again, the guy detective looks like he's the one being questioned. He's sitting back in his chair. He's got his arms crossed. He's moving around. He looks nervous. He's touching his face, everything else. He's adapting with his hands, everything. He looks like he's the one in trouble. Then out of nowhere, she says, because when I went upstairs and then I fell asleep, his open-handed gesture comes out when hers does. Out of nowhere. And he says nothing. And he's just distracting at this point. He's just, I don't know what this guy's doing at this point. And she says, I didn't do it intentionally. Boom, there it is again. We're done. All you got to do is move forward from that point. So, okay, well, shoot, let's talk about that. Nobody does that. Nobody does that. Then he says, so what do you think is gonna happen if you leave someone in a confined space like that? He's not even listening at that point. He's not listening. He's not even looking at her. And I don't think he knows what's going on. And I agree with you, Chase. A lot of detectives haven't had training, but this isn't good because somebody may go to prison that doesn't need to go to prison because these people will get it wrong. They'll push them into it and won't realize they're seeing a false confession. And then this worries me. This worries me. They need to call somebody and get some help down there in Florida quick. Greg, what do you got? Hey, it's Dr. Phil here. Please subscribe to the behavior panel. Thanks. I got him. You wouldn't have gotten me, but I covered it up when I was reading all this from the statute. Thanks. Okay, here you go. Let's see if I can find it. Take me again a second now. All right, man. Got me this time. Yeah, so there really are, just hold on. Now you got to wait for me, sorry. Yeah, we got it. Good all the time in the world. All right, go ahead. Okay, so the state courts have ruled that this is murder too, a killing that was the result of ill will hatred, spider evil intent, an act of a person that a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or cause seriously bodily injury. Or an act showing indifference to human life. What sure feels like they're trying to force her to say, I knew it would kill him and I made a mistake or whatever, because intent is there then. And that's all they have to do. Maybe that's what they're after is an element. They're trying to close the loop on, but look, the one thing I firmly disagree is when he says, we're listening. No, you're not listening. He gets right one thing. He does one thing, he mirrors her and it actually makes sense. She goes, what am I to do? And he's like, eh, you know, that kind of thing. He throws his hands out again. They miss a great lead. There's the word plan. I would lean in and say, Sarah, what was your plan? Was this a way to show him how powerless you feel when you was in that suitcase and something went wrong? Give her the opportunity. Give her the out, give her rationalization. Instead, it goes back to one more of this argument and circular logic. She now says her plan was to go upstairs and wait for him. Wait a minute. If we go all the way back to what I told you in the very beginning and we say, I didn't go upstairs intentionally. I left an air gap because I knew it was not safe. Now you're telling me you went upstairs and that was in your plan and you're gonna wait for him. Now you just admitted to me that you know you put him in bodily harm and you caused element three of that law. Now you got him. But here's the, now they allow her to have a chance. She set up the alcohol day one. That's a rescuer. She's been saying I only had one bottle of alcohol between the two of us and now she's changing that. She does helplessness and she looks at each of them with good intent. She signals the regulators and she says, I thought he was okay. There's a lot of control there and they go back at her instead of eliciting and challenge her again. If you just would pay a little bit of attention, you would get somewhere. Instead, this detective instead of saying what do you think would happen, forgets everything the woman's saying and jumps right over and says, would you leave someone else in the suitcase? Altercation again. I think what they're trying to do is push them to that third element. But if you look at every one of these videos we've shown, each of those is a standalone. There's no sequitur between these pieces. If you look at this one, it's an argument. The first one's an argument. The second one's an argument. It's just, there's no power to it. That's all I got. Who did I forget? Chase. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I'll be quick here. This assault on her character is what's causing this resistance. And you already know that because of the behavior profile. So how would you have used that behavior profile? I'm curious to know what you would have done at home. Let us know in the comments. We'll take a look. So what could have been done here is to demonize or shift the blame to the victim. This sounds horrible. It sounds atrocious, but it's extremely effective in getting guilty people to confess. In many cases, just like this one, thousands of confessions were obtained by guilty people by blaming the victim for the crime initially. And this is called projection in many cases. And this is a common tactic that has proven to be extremely effective. If they built a narrative focused on how she tried hard to take care of him, he's been abusive and mean and violent, et cetera. Then the interrogator shifts to socializing wherein they would start making it. These are her two things, right? So then they're gonna start making it normal. They'd say something like anybody would have done that. It's totally understandable. People are going to understand this and that's why I came in here to help you. This would be especially effective just based on her profile that we developed in 29 seconds. So this is a formula for this behavioral type where projection leads the way in the interrogation. So in some interrogations, you want to minimize, then socialize, and then rationalize. This one, you wanna project the brain, socialize the actions that the person took, minimize the seriousness, rationalize the motive for taking action, and that would have probably cleaned the table. Even Scott was saying that she's pre-confession. She's kind of just ready the whole time. Get that out there. It looked like that would have been a short discussion, like an unsub 45 minute interrogation. That's all I got. What did I say, Greg? Well, we were talking about 45 minutes tops and you said he, yeah. Yeah, you said 45 minutes tops. And I just said, look, this is a fallen off of log easy. When five minutes into it, she's already starting to believe. But if it's all true, I agree with you, Chase. That's not in her personality. You can't go headlong at her. Yeah. Well, we're trying to make sense of it. We're trying to figure out the video. You were explaining it to us. We're listening. I just said, like we were playing and then like I thought it was, my plan was not to go upstairs and go to sleep. My plan was not to, he'll be up here any minute. But he willingly went upstairs and went to sleep. No one forced you to go upstairs and get ready for that. My plan wasn't also to leave him in the suitcase. So why didn't you take him out? Because I went upstairs and then I fell asleep. But why didn't you consciously think he's asking to come out? I didn't do it intentionally. What do you think is gonna happen if you leave somebody in a confined space like that? Well, I thought by not filling it up all the way, it would be okay. My plan was not to leave him in the suitcase. What was your plan? Waiting for him to come upstairs. And then when he did it, I fell asleep. You said you were up there 30 minutes. After 30 minutes, somebody not coming up. Knowing that the last time you saw him was in this suitcase, 30 minutes later, you're like, maybe I should go check on him? Maybe I shouldn't? No. That didn't cross your mind. That's like an assumption. Like, that's what you all are thinking, just. We're asking. It's the whole. You tell us. It's the drinking. That's what it is. It's the drinking. I thought it was like, I thought he was okay. Like, I didn't, you all. He's telling you he's not. He's telling you, Sarah, I can't breathe. He saved your name and you're like, that's my name, don't wear it out. Guys, that's how we are with each other. Like he has, nobody understands our relationship. This, the whole suitcase thing, never happened before. Would you leave someone else in a suitcase? I think someone that knows nothing about this or hears just a little bit like, oh, they were playing around in a suitcase. She's been drinking. And then watching somebody else sleep. That's what happened. But you let him out before, I mean, you put him in, so why didn't you take him out? Because I was upstairs when I fell asleep. No, before you went upstairs. You consciously had to walk upstairs. I mean, you obviously remember going to bed because you were able to give me a timeframe on that. And you specifically told me that, that you went upstairs. My intention is not for this to happen. I am sick about it. I've never done anything like this before in the past. I am sick, especially with that. I thought I couldn't sleep last night. I don't know. Well, here's the thing. You tell us the last night, you vividly remember this when you told us last night, that he was laughing, you were laughing, you put him in a suitcase, he has two fingers sticking out and you go to bed. Now we see something totally different. And it actually shows you upset and again, using derogatory terms to him when he's begging for his life to get out of that suitcase. So, what did you say we're assuming? We're not assuming, we're telling you what's on it. So it just happened to be that whenever I was videotaping or doing whatever else it was, it just happened to not have that in it. Okay. And you also in the video, you can't see any holes. There's no where in that where the zipper separates and you can see a hole. If there's a hole, he's pushing on it, begging you to get out. We should probably see that hole that you're trying to get out. He essentially would have been able to get out. Alcohol. Based off what you're telling us, he should have been able to get out. But the video shows him attempting to get out, begging to get out and he can't. So that's just what we're trying to figure out. I don't know if maybe you had too much to drink, you zipped it up all the way and then, you know. I did not zip it up all the way. I did not zip it up all the way. This is horrific, okay? Horrific. It is terrible. Horrific. I don't think I'll ever be right because of this. Ever be right. Dealing with everything else that I have in my life, personally, and then this, whom I loved, it was not intentional. I will put my hand on the Bible. It was not intentional. I would not do that to him nor anyone else. But she did. Not intentional. You intentionally went up to bed. I didn't intentionally go to bed because I'm thinking, okay, I can get out. How did you not intentionally go to bed? You said you went upstairs and got into bed. That's intentionally going to bed. Waiting for him. And he doesn't come, but you don't go down to check on him. So I happened to go to sleep. When I say go to sleep, what do you normally do when you go to bed? What do you normally do when you go to bed? What do you mean? What is a bed for? Going to sleep. Right. So you go to bed and do what? Well, I'll be thinking how to do that. Like, I'm thinking how to do that. Okay. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so the female interviewer, Lint Picking. I'm not up here. I'm just demonstrating it up here so you can see it. She's doing it on her trousers, her pants. A clear show of disinterest, which is very similar, Scott, I think to the guy's previous show of disinterest by being into his phone. Again, no good reason for that. No good reason for Lint Picking, even if you had stuff all over your pants. Don't touch it. It's not important. So, you know, I've even got like tactic question mark because I was bemused by that. I was bemused as to whether they, you know, had a conversation outside. Should we do the Lint Picking route? Yeah, I'll do the, you do the phone thing. I'll do the Lint Picking and she'll be done. She'll be done in 15 minutes if we do that. I just can't work out why they're doing it. She goes to a victim, you know, what with everything that I've had in my life. You know, pick up on that. You know, pick up on that. You know, again, listen, watch, listen, watch, be curious. What do you mean by that? Would be a great question. Yeah, simple question. What do you mean? What do you mean by that? What exactly? What have you had in your life that's had the most impact? What are you talking about? You know, because then we, as Chase was saying, we could get into that stuff. Well, you know, he was beating me up and okay, we could socialize that and accept that and have agreement with that. No, none of that going on. She goes hand on the Bible, which is always a great indicator that no good is coming of it. And I loved him in past. Again, it's a day afterwards. You know, I would expect I love him. You know, even of the deceased, I love him. Yeah. Anyway, not good at all. Greg, what do you think? Yeah, she's congruent in her messaging when she says she'd been drinking and went to sleep. She goes back, look, if you were paying attention, if you had a plan and you were setting a trap, you'd go all the way back to that beginning argument. Well, it wasn't in your plan to go upstairs. And why did that happen? Well, I went upstairs and I was waiting for it. We've seen a lot of anomalies, but we don't see any tieback to those interrogation steps. We see a lot of arguing right now. And for that reason, I think this woman sees it as an argument. I don't think she has any idea of what kind of trouble she's in here because she's arguing openly like you would in school, like you would argue with your friends and try to win. You don't win with an interrogator who knows what they're doing because anything they do that lets you win is about the next step in setting it up. It isn't happening here. She doesn't think she's in that much trouble. Her open posture will tell you that she's doing this. People close up when they think that they're in trouble. They let her talk a minute and she starts to say alcohol and, and then they step on her again. And when that happens, her body language goes to oppositional. She pushes back in the chair, her hands and feet are folded. And then she does that thing about me and her face actually shows some disdain for the interviewer here. It's just powerful when you see that, that powerful look in her face. And then she starts to try to tell you about her life. She's like, please feel sorry for me and help me to confess and tell you how this goes. But we don't do that. We just go right back at it again. And there we go. We just, at the end, she's telling you what she believes in your attacking or logic. Listen to, if you want to believe that, go and listen to what she does. She's in a downward telling tone and the detective is in an upward-lilting voice as she's asking for approval. Really not a good place to be this late in an interrogation. Chase, what do you got? Yep, just kind of copy-paste whatever I said on the last video. You had a suspect that's desperate for acceptance, approval and pity and you're giving them the exact opposite of what they desire. It's a recipe for absolute and rapid failure. Mark. I'm done. I've been... Oh yeah, Scott, sorry. All right, yeah, I agree with you, Chase. It's the same stuff we've seen before. There's no reason to keep doing this whatsoever. And what should happen if somebody's monitoring this? They should have stepped in and said, come here a minute, man. Let me talk to you a minute. Either one of those and said, come here. Let's shut this down. This isn't where you, I don't know what you're doing. We're gonna get in trouble for this. You know, this isn't where you're just, it's just three people in a room fussing. That's all it is. I'll end mine there. Mm. I think someone that knows nothing about this or hears just a little bit like, oh, they were playing around in a suitcase. She's been drinking. And then watching. Probably went to sleep. That's what happened. But you let him out before, I mean, you put him in, so why didn't you take him out? Because I was upstairs and I fell asleep. No, before you went upstairs. You consciously had to walk upstairs. I mean, you obviously remember going to bed because you were able to give me a timeframe on that. And you specifically told me that. I built, my intention is not for this to happen. I am sick about it. I've never done anything like this before in the past. I am sick, especially with that. I thought I couldn't sleep last night. I don't know. Well, here's the thing. You tell us the last night, you vividly remember this when you told us last night that he was laughing, you were laughing, you put him in the suitcase, he has two fingers sticking out and you go to bed. Now we see something totally different. And it actually shows you upset. And again, using derogatory terms to him when he's begging for his life to get out of that suitcase. So what did you say we're assuming, we're not assuming, but telling you what's on there? So it just happened to be that whenever I was videotaping or doing whatever else it was, it just happened to not have that in it. And you also in the video, you can't see any holes. There's no where in that where the zipper separates and you can see a hole. If there's a hole, he's pushing on it, begging you to get out. We should probably see that hole that you're talking about. He essentially would have been able to get out. Alcohol, based off what you're telling us, he should have been able to get out. But the video shows him attempting to get out, begging to get out and he can't. So that's just what we're trying to figure out. I don't know if maybe you had too much to drink, you zipped it up all the way and then you know. I did not zip it up all the way. I did not zip it up all the way. This is horrific, okay? Horrific. It is terrible. Horrific. I don't think I'll ever be right because of this. Ever be right. Dealing with everything else that I have in my life, personally, and then this, whom I loved, it was not intentional. I will put my hand on the Bible. It was not intentional. I would not do that to him nor anyone else. But you did. Not intentional. You intentionally went up to bed. I didn't intentionally go to bed because I'm thinking, okay, can I keep you out? How did you not intentionally go to bed? You said you went upstairs and got into bed. That's intentionally going to bed. Waiting for him. And he doesn't come, but you don't go down to check on him. So I happened to go to sleep. When I say go to sleep, what do you normally do when you go to bed? What do you mean? What is a bed for? Going to sleep. Right. So you go to bed to do what? But obviously he'll tell you that. Like, I think he'll tell you that. You go to bed to do what? Okay. Is that what you all are trying to do? To portray yet? We're trying to do anything. I'm simply asking you to explain to me what happened. Everything was fine and dandy. Everything was fine and dandy. Was fine and dandy. Okay, for me to tell you this again, mind you, I've been without him for a day now. I don't know what you all want me to tell you because this was not in any way, shape or form. It was hand on the Bible, intentional. Okay. So you just left him? I didn't tell him. You left him there to teach him a lesson? I didn't mean to leave him there. That's what I'm trying to tell you. You gotta have them walked away. How is that not intentionally leaving him there? Because I'm looking at the whole knowing that it's there. He'll get out in no time. Because you don't... Then he doesn't. But you don't go check on him. You say you're up for 30 minutes and he doesn't come up. You don't go down and check on him? I'm in the bed. You even move? I'm off. You move, you admit to moving the suitcase, like over. So you roll it up. Like it's not like... I didn't want him to be like that. I want him to be upside down. How do you even get upside down? Right. You guys are killing me right now. I just want you to hear me. That's how he talks to me most of the time. I don't know how you want me to say it. I'm just trying to figure out what you would expect to happen to somebody when you leave them in a suitcase. I didn't mean to leave him in there. Okay. Seriously. What one was that, 12? 13. 13, okay. Okay, Chase, what do you got? In this video, you can see every single stress marker that we've spent all this time identifying and showing you here, appearing at the precise moments of having her character attack at the precise moments. And just 10 minutes of training in any, even a crappy body language course would have showed them these little stress markers. So these interviewers are doing the best they can, probably with the training that they have, maybe. And most departments do not invest in interrogation training very well. Sarah is driven by how she's perceived by other people and that's what's being attacked. I'm not suggesting the detectives here should have known that, but it's definitely visible to you now. And there's this, what I teach, there's six essential ways people are driven. We have significance, acceptance, approval, intelligence, pity, and power. And those are the six things that that person desires from other human beings. This is how they need to feel and what they need to get confirmation of in other people, from other people. So Sarah is acceptance and pity right now. But keep in mind, they don't know this. So this is such a crystal clear warning to everyone watching this to pay attention to behavior and communicate with some precision and not treat people as if they're all the same. Little molecules, like a science experiment like an academic study would treat human beings. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, if we go back and look at what she said way back when I was a straight A student. Now we're talking 30 years later, 25 years later, that tells you a lot about something about this person. She said, look, I used to be somebody. I've always excelled at everything I've done. I'm a great mother to your point, Chase. She's screaming out, look, I'm this respectable person who did something stupid. If you can hear that and you can say, hey, everybody makes mistakes, now you've got a different approach. Here's what's really interesting. Look at these big illustrators. She's wiping things away. Everything was this and everything was that. They don't even notice that. They don't hear it. When she says fine and dandy, they attack the fine and dandy. She's giving them, if we skip everything else in this video and she goes, everything was fine and dandy, I didn't mean to. The rest of the interrogation that you've made, just shut up and go and say, what do you mean you didn't mean to? That's the interrogation right there because that's what you're after is her saying, I did something stupid that a normal human being should know will kill or injure somebody. That's the elemental law you're trying to get. And she just told you, I did something stupid. I didn't mean to kill the guy. Scott, what do you got? Yeah, he says, I'm simply asking you to explain what happened, explain to me what happened. And she's done that about 40 times. She keeps saying she's not gonna say anything other than that because that's what happened. She keeps telling them what happened over and over and over. But he was on his phone when she was saying all that. And now he's just badgering her. So, and like you were saying, you got those spread out arms. And then the woman detective, her phone dings. She's getting texts in there and returning them during this. I've never seen anything like this for my life. I hope I never get in trouble in Orlando or wherever this is because they'll say that they'll be like, that's one of those guys from that behavior panel thing. And you'll never see me again. If I ever go to Florida and you all never hear from me again. I love you guys. I'll be searching the Everglades for you. Yeah, it won't be a search to be doing that. Is that what you all are trying to do to portray yet? We're trying to do anything. I'm simply asking you to explain to me what happened. Everything was fine with Andy. I don't know if I'm gonna find a dandy. Was fine with Andy. Explain to me. Okay, for me to tell you this again, mind you I've been without him for a day now. I don't know, I mean, I don't know what you all want me to tell you because this was not in any way, shape or form. Hand on the Bible, intentional. Okay. So you just- I didn't tell him. You left him there to keep him a lesson? I didn't mean to leave him there. That's what I'm trying to tell you. You gotta have them walked away. How is that not intentionally leaving him there? Because I'm looking at the whole knowing that it's there. He'll get out in no time. Because you don't- Then he doesn't. But you don't go check on him. You say you're up for 30 minutes and he doesn't come up. You don't go down and check on him? I'm in the bed. You even moved up. You moved, you admit to moving the suitcase like over. So you roll it up. Like it's not like- I didn't want him to be like that. You're wanting to be upside down. How do you even get upside down? All right. You guys are killing me right now. I just want you to hear me. That's how he talks to me most of the time. I don't know how you want me to say it. I'm just trying to figure out what you would expect to happen to somebody when you leave them in a suitcase. I didn't mean to leave him in there. Okay. What's your reasoning for not calling 911 sooner? Because I didn't know what to do and how horrific it was. I called Ryan and like what? Five minutes later, I called you guys? Not even five minutes. Nonetheless, I was trying to do CPR. I was trying to do CPR. I had to get him out and try to do CPR and then call you guys. Then you will leave you in CPR with the dispatch on the phone where you had me count out loud to help me focus on what I was doing. It just- I don't know how, I mean you can sit here all day long and say I thought he was going to get himself out but that's, he didn't. And you went upstairs and you stayed there for 30 minutes before you fell asleep. But can I say too like- He shows not to ever at any point during that 30 minutes walk back down and check on him. No, wait one second. Because I know like with you all and then like you continually ask me like time frames, time frames, time frames where I told you like I don't bother even looking at the clock most of the time. So it's like a guesstimate. So I, for all I know I was, maybe it was 10 minutes. Okay. But the point is you left the living room where he was begging for help and went upstairs. Regardless of how long you were there, you left. You say- I thought he was above the one calling wolf. Again. Okay. So when he asked to be let out, like what's your reasoning for not letting him out? When I was upstairs? No, when he's asking on the video, he asked multiple times. He asked to be let out. I can't breathe. Like why didn't you let him out? Well, number one, I had no idea it was going to end like that. Okay. Number one. Okay. Number two, just, you know what? I'll give you five minutes to sell in there. That's, I'll give you five minutes to sell. Five minutes for what? Well, based on the video, one video's at 11.12 and the next one's at 11.23. So you actually gave him at least 11 minutes per video recording. So my thing is, when it stopped, he asked multiple times. I mean, why? Why did you not let him out? It's just a simple question. To be honest with you, I mean, don't- Were you punishing him? No. Well, that's what you're saying in the video. This is what you get. This is what you make me feel like. See, and then it's all backfired on me. Like, it's all backfired on me. And I understand the severity of this. I just- He's dead. It's awful, I know. Okay. It's awful. Tell you both this right now too, I will never drink alcohol again. Okay. Like, I will never drink alcohol again. I don't care what it is in any way, shape or form. All right, Chase, what do you got? I'm just gonna talk about one thing in here that I don't think y'all will cover or I hope. One thing that I've seen many times with guilty people who think they're about to get off the hook or think there's a chance is something that I call self-administered punishment. And innocent people don't feel that they need to tell you that they will self-administer some kind of punishment and that they've learned a lesson. And you see that here. I'm never gonna do, I'm never gonna drink alcohol again for the rest of my life. And then the detective, in the back of her mind, this is not a conscious process. In the back of her mind, she's going, well, if she knows that I've kind of learned a lesson from this, I'll just head home after this, it is over with. And another brilliant, brilliant interrogation technique to get a confession is to walk in there with a paper and say, all I need you to do is to hand write a statement that says you understand that this was bad and you promise that you won't do it again. And the person believes that that might get me out of there but all it does is get you a step closer to the confession in many cases, and that's a case by case basis. That's all I got for that one. Mark, where you going? Yeah, you got there first again. I'm afraid Chase, I will never drink again. And then it says there, sorry, punishment. So yeah, I totally agree, I totally agree. It's, she's punishing, she's displaying that she's already punished herself. I'm never gonna drink again. We can all go home now, you know, done and dusted. And she does that after it's all backfired on me. Now again, like watch and listen, watch and listen and just get curious. It's all backfired on me. How did it, how did that start? How did it start backfiring? Take us through that. If that's your idea that it's backfired on you, take us through that little element of it because that's a great metaphor. It's a great idea that she's put forward there. They're just not listening to the ideas and investigating them. Now, body language rise. She's now really locked herself down in part of this. Hands on knees, she's locked down. So I think she believes something is coming. I think she believes the end is near but they're not gonna take her there but she thinks she's a little less optimistic than I think we are around how good this interrogation is. Greg, what do you got on there? Yeah, I'm gonna skip all the body language except for one little piece but she confesses right here to what they need and they just miss it. They just miss it. And she gets it by saying, why didn't you let him out? The single best question I've heard the entire day. And then you get that, I'll give you five minutes or so. Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. That right there shows that she is punishing him that something is going on and that she had some intent. Now, you go back to that law. Look, when she's on trial and that's going on right about now, they're gonna bring all that up. They're gonna say, look, I told him I'd give him five minutes or so. And she did kind of a really with her face. If you notice that's the only piece of body language I would say. That's the beginning of a confession with a good interrogator. All I do is I go in there and I start asking questions and I'll say, was that retribution? Did he choke you? You said he choked you. Did you intend to keep him in there five minutes? And then you thought, well, I think I'm just gonna go upstairs and let him suffer a little bit longer. And then you passed out. You knew he was suffering. You knew he couldn't get out, but they don't. They just keep pushing instead of listening. And instead of going back to her first thing where it wasn't in my plan, I went upstairs and then I passed out and looping that back after she says I was gonna give him five minutes in there. We miss all that. We miss a confession. And she's giving you the elements of it right here. Scott, what do you got? All right. See, you got everything. You went over everything I was gonna, I thought I had a big old thing there that you nailed everything. But let's focus on the guy again just for a second. Let me talk about that guy. Watch his body language and think about the people you've seen on TV and cartoons when they're in a poker game or something and they won and they're pushing all the chips over to him. He's sitting there all scrunched up, doing his hands, looking like that. Like he just won a bunch of money or he's won the lottery or something. Again, no teamwork in this. Nobody's listening to anybody. Everybody's on their phones, texting back and forth. The phones are dinging. They're looking at their phones. And when the woman is talking to Sarah, she asks, when she asks her a question, she looks down because her phone dings and then she just sits there and flicks on her phone for awhile. Even while she's, I don't think she's even listening to her. They can't be listening because this woman did everything she could do to give them all the information she could possibly give them and they haven't heard a bit of it. And you'll notice it's the same thing over and over and over like I've been doing because that's what's going on in here. I feel sorry for her. I feel sorry for these two detectives because this is embarrassing. This is bad. Okay. What's your reasoning for not calling 911 center? Because I didn't know what to do and how horrific it was. I called Ryan and like what, five minutes later I called you guys? Not even five minutes. Nonetheless, I had to like try to, I was trying to do CPR. I was trying to do CPR. I had to get him out and try to do CPR and then call you guys. And then I was continually doing CPR with the dispatch on the phone where he had me count out loud to help me focus on what I was doing. It just, I don't know how, I mean you can sit here all day long and say I thought he was gonna get himself out but that he didn't and you went upstairs and you stayed there for 30 minutes before he fell asleep. But can I say too, like? It shows not to ever at any point during that 30 minutes walk back down and check on him. No, wait one second because I know like with you all and then like because you can continually ask me like time frames, time frames, time frames where I told you like I don't bother even looking at the clock most of the time. So it's like a guesstimate. So I, for all I know I was, maybe it was 10 minutes. Okay. But the point is you left the living room where he was begging for help and went upstairs. Regardless of how long you were there, you left. You said I was in the living room. I thought he was above the wood calling wolf. Again. Okay. So when he asked to be let out, like what's your reasoning for not letting him out? When I was upstairs? No, when he's asking on the video, he asked multiple times. He asked to be let out. I can't breathe. Like why didn't you let him out? Well, number one, I had no idea he was going to end like that. Okay. Number one. Okay. Number two, just, you know what? I'll give you five minutes or so in there. That's, I'll give you five minutes or so. Five minutes for what? Well, based on the video, one video's at 1112 and the next one's 1123. So you actually gave him at least 11 minutes per video recording. So my thing is when it stopped, he asked multiple times. I mean, why? Why did you not let him out? It's just a simple question. To be honest with you, I mean, don't. Were you punishing him? No. Well, that's what you're saying in the video. This is what you got. This is what you make me feel like. See, and then it's all backfired on me. Like it's all backfired on me. And I understand the severity of this. I just. You did it. It's awful, I know. Okay. It's awful. Both this right now too. I will never drink alcohol again. Okay. Like I will never drink alcohol again. I don't care what it is in any way, shape or form. All right, let's throw it around the room one time and talk about what we think we've seen. Mark, why don't you go first? Yeah, look, just, you don't need to argue. Don't argue. Watch, listen, be curious. Don't argue. Chase, what do you think? Yep. With zero training and interrogation, zero. And just three minutes of training in understanding behavior and who you're speaking to, who that person is, this would have been a dramatically different interrogation. And I think they would have been successful without any interrogation training, just a tiny, tiny bit of behavior training, different outcome. Greg. I'll take it a step further. If you take the words of Don Landrum, one of my mentors, you got one mouth and two ears shut up and listen, you would get a lot more. The word patterns that this person used along the way would tell you that they're trying to give you information. I think that she has no idea how much trouble she's in. She ends up getting arrested and is on trial. I think she has no idea how much trouble she's in and she is bleeding information. I don't know that I would think that this was intentional. It looks like something going wrong. Not gonna weigh in on that. Not my job, but she bleeds so much information that the right touch point, the right listen, the right process, interrogation approaches or narrative would have gotten her to give you the right words. Scott. I think I could take my mother and the woman that cuts her hair and sit them down for about four minutes and say, do this, this, this, this, and this, and they would have done so much better than these two. I think they would have walked out of there with a confession first, what they needed right out of the gate. I think it would have been over in about 15, 20 minutes. And that'd have been it. All right. I think this is another good one to us. And that'd have been a good haircut as well. That's true too. That's true. That's true too. All right. I think this is another good one. And I'll see you next time. See you. See you. Behave your pen. All right. I hate how bad we had to abuse these guys, but man, me too. Me too. You know what? Maybe they'll get back to them and maybe they'll do something about that because they're going to put somebody in prison who doesn't need to be in prison. Yeah. They're going to pull me over when I'm driving down. I figured about it. Yeah. Besides us. I'm not going to see a false confession. No, they can't. Well, they're going to talk and not listen. That's the problem. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you got?