 Thank you. Our advanced development people, we're not even going to call it a bicycle. It's a whole new kind of vehicle. See, what we realized, we looked at the bicycle and realized that only the parts, mostly from the waist down, we're really being utilized. So a little bit of upper body, but mostly it's the parts for the waist down. So we've got a new vehicle that is going to use all of the parts of our body. So it starts out here. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push back. Push push back push back push back push back push back push back push back Oh my God push back push back push back push back push back push back Push back, push back, push back. We talk about the fun of bicycling. And it turns out that there is that we are addicted actually to some very natural, wonderful stuff that's going on. It's a cocktail of hormones and proteins and all kinds of things going on in our bodies. Second, talk about that cocktail. There's endorphins. There's serotonin. There's dopamine, nothing more dope than dopamine. Norepinephrine. And there's actually a couple of others. The one that I always like to have fun with is endocannabinoids. Endocannabinoids, they are pretty much like what the name sounds. They are a molecule that mimics the same effects as THC in cannabis. It has been legal in 50 states forever because your body makes it every time you exercise and at other points in your life. You're your own dealer. And there's a whole set of other natural functions that occur. Your body is making new neural pathways. It's creating this whole set of changes to your life. And that is all coming from cycling. It's coming from physical activity. And now I'm going to introduce Marianne, who's going to talk to you a little bit more about the activity advantages. Yes, yes. I am going to go over what might not be as exciting, but all those wonderful feelings are very important and that being physically active. So the title came from, it was Randy's idea, in that because he's at SRAM, which is a bicycle company, and we're seeing in our environment, in our COVID environment, our post-COVID, during COVID environment, what did we see more of and bicycling, but a certain kind of bike? E-bikes and scooters, too. And we all had bike share before, but people on individual e-bikes and different types. And bicycle companies, they go where the money is. And so more and more e-bikes are out there and people are riding and not riding. So the purpose of this session is to focus on trying to get people to pedal, to pedal more. And so I'm going to go over some CDC guidelines as to what is recommended for health. And raise your hand if you know what the CDC guidelines are for physical activity for an adult. I sort of never heard, I guess I've been in the field too long. OK, so I'm going to go over how important it is that cycling and how is to meeting our CDC guidelines, and it's the most practical way to do that, basically through transportation. So the guidelines and the Surgeon General's report on physical activity first came out in 1996, a long time ago. And since that time, it's been shown the best way to maintain physical activity is through transportation, through daily activity, and the best way to do that is through commuting or running errands. You pretty much, if you use your bike to do any of that, you're meeting the CDC guidelines. So nothing new to us, this audience, absolutely not. So quickly, these are the health benefits. Can you just yell out some since we have a small crowd and you probably can't read that anyway with a glare, but what's a physical activity benefit, health benefit, not mental health, but just health? Right, exactly. You have less risk of cardiovascular risk, so less risk of high blood pressure, cholesterol, diabetes, glucose levels, another health risk, health benefit, say that? Right, exactly, bone density. Generally, impact is what increases bone density, but I do want to emphasize for older adults, it's very important for joint mobility and balance. So for older adults, it's really important to keep physically active. These are aerobic fitness, obviously we know is a benefit, bone health, body composition for young kids. So the first column is young kids, so more muscle to fat ratio. And then the mental health benefits are really, really sort of what Randy will speak to a little more, but what we experience is it just focuses us and it does that for kids, it does for adults, it helps improve cognitive function, and then since I have a nearly 95-year-old mother, it delays the onset of cognitive decline or dementia. So it's just, it's sort of the magic pill. Physical activity, I've been in physical activity since studying it for many years, and it is the magic pill, and it truly is. It just really enhances our lives. So we want to, again, e-bikes are wonderful, they're becoming part of our community. We welcome them because the more cyclists we have, the more advocates we have, probably the better drivers they are because they know what it's like to be on the road as a cyclist. The physical activity guidelines were updated 10 years later in 2018 and they found these added benefits as well. So as we know, this has been studied for decades and decades and decades and they choose an activity and they say physical activity, curling is good for this. I mean, every activity you can imagine, but it's always being studied and updated, and I've highlighted the ones about quality of life and sleep. Nowadays, many adults have problems with sleep. It helps with dementia. We mentioned chronic diseases, including cancer, anxiety, and depression. So this, we sort of know, but we want to emphasize, but you gotta move. You gotta move, you can't just ride a moped. So what are the recommendations? These are general, they're 150 for adults, it's 100 and older adults, it's 150 minutes a week. So that would be 30 minutes, five times a week, and this is the minimum to get health benefits. So we want people peddling at least that much and the CDC also recommends that we have two sessions of strength exercising as well, exercise as well, to keep our mental health and health benefits. If you do vigorous activity and the definition between moderate and vigorous in terms of cycling, moderate would be cycling between five and nine miles an hour on flat surfaces. Hill climbing is considered vigorous, over 10 miles an hour on a flat road is considered vigorous. See, oh, and another thing, because this, over the years it's really modified, which is very interesting, because we've become more and more sedentary, the guidelines have gotten, it seems like easier to meet because people were just not moving at all. So you can achieve these 150 minutes as small as five minute increments throughout the day, or you can do them all at one time, you can space it every other day, every day. Granted, we know daily habits are the ones that are likely to stick. So commuting, running errands on your bike, et cetera, but peddling, peddling, peddling. According to CDC, you can do it all on Saturday. I definitely do it, well, I do it every day, but I do that on a Saturday, and you probably do too. There's a little bit of controversy around that. I think that the research ultimately is gonna show that regular exercise is very important. I can't, I can't, I'm with the state, I can't, I can't just follow, I'm telling you what the guidelines say, but yes, I think practically if you have a habit that you do daily, you're gonna continue doing that as opposed to doing it all on Saturday, not being able to move for two days. And then, and then, you know, and then, and then you decondition the rest of the week, et cetera. So yes, I agree, every day, every other day, but as long as you move. According to the Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance Survey, which is a very common tool that we use in public health to measure various, various health indicators, smoking, drinking, and physical activity as one. According to BRFSS, California's 70.5% meet the CDC physical activity recommendations. And I'm a little doubtful that that's true, but that's what that shows for California. And this is for the little cameras there missing. It's from 2017. So this data, that's just the most recent that there is. And with COVID, we know for the majority of people, they became even more sedentary. That's sensitive. I'm already at the end of my presentation. So studies show that the best way to achieve these things are to make activity-friendly routes to every day destination. So that would be errands, pharmacy, school, work, et cetera. What you see here are an example of, and ignore that little square at the top that got inserted in some of my slides. This is a quick-bill pop-up project. And so in Caltrans, in case you didn't hear in the previous sessions, we have all kinds of, we have complete streets, we have safe streets, we have demonstration projects, we have quick-bills. So we're following the CDC recommendations in terms of trying to put in place safe places for people to move, ride their bike, walk, so they can see what an infrastructure change would be. I don't, yeah, I don't necessarily think that's part of it. It depends on the community, but this, for example, I'm not sure how long it is. It's in Southern California, but it's just to demonstrate to the community, this is what we could do. We could make permanent. Does this look good to you? Is this fun? Is this exciting? So it's a way to encourage infrastructure change, so built change. So these are just temporary. Again, as I mentioned, activity-friendly routes to everyday destinations. Again, every day, as you mentioned, is it better to do it every day? It is, because it becomes a habit that way, as opposed to just doing it on Saturdays. So these are some examples of what we do at Caltrans, and to try to promote moving, and again, sometimes e-bikes don't do that. And then, of course, the second route is mainly for children. How can we get children, the playgrounds, et cetera, accessible to children for physical activity, and that's not necessarily just for cycling. Okay, that thing is driving me insane. But, can you hold this for a minute, let me do this. That's my spiel on CDC physical activity guidelines. They're very important. That's the magic pill. We need to do it. And sometimes the current e-bikes that are out there don't, people tend to not pedal as much as they should. So regarding e-bikes, the California Air Resources Board is releasing an e-bike incentive program this July. And the, which Dave and Cal Bike were very integral in being part of, to lobby for that. And we have $10 million approved from the California General Fund going out for this program. They're contracting with the group that will manage it. And that's due to start this July. I'm trying to think up to Dave, do you remember how much someone couldn't get? Yes, yeah, okay. Okay, so we don't know yet how much of an incentive or a rebate you would get. I owned a hybrid car a while back, so you get a pretty good incentive for owning an e-car, but now we got some incentive for people to get e-bikes. And again, the goal is to replace car trips that we're excited with our e-bike riders. Yes, did you have a question? So the question was, the question was, are the rebate, are people eligible for a rebate that by an e-bike that has a throttle that don't have to pedal, given that we're trying to increase physical activity, but I guess it meets the goal of replacing a car trip. And these are eligible to individual low income households that varies by county because of different thresholds at the counties. And they want to support a variety of e-bikes, not just single use, but cargo bikes, e-bikes for people with disabilities, folding e-bikes, et cetera, and support local small businesses and organizations such as retail bicycle shops. The best place to find information on this rebate program is actually on the cowbike.org site, and you can sign up to get updates. If as soon as all the information's released, you'll get an update, and it's actually in pretty much their monthly newsletter each time. Next, I want to give a little commercial to the program that I helped support at the California Department of Public Health. The Active Transportation Resource Center is exactly that, a resource center. And me and my two colleagues at the California Department of Public Health, Judy Polacoff and Victoria Custodio, we help support as well as others. What's on this website, so I really encourage you to go there. It's an easy URL to remember, CaliforniaATPResources.org, and Dave spoke at a webinar we had in February, so it's up to date, and we have safe routes to school templates, guides, you name it, anything supporting biking and walking non-infrastructure. So we're not supporting the engineers, we're supporting the promotion of biking and walking. Yes? I don't know. You would probably have to ask our CalTrends, since I'm in public health, I wouldn't know. But the best person to ask would be your district local engineer for whichever district you're in. You know which CalTrends district you're in? Oh, it's a district four. So he's here, right? He spoke earlier, I forget his name. Yeah, yeah. So just for your information, the question was about some upgrades on Interstate Highway One, and the response is you can find pretty much anything happening in your district. We have 12 districts in California, and there are plans there, there are projects that are going on currently, et cetera. All right, well thank you. I'm gonna turn it back over to Randy and pull up his presentation for him. We're a small group here, but I think it's an important group. I'm trying to shop a new direction in looking at active transportation, and trying to shop something that goes from being something that's nice to do, something where we primarily work to keep people from getting run over, to something that's a central priority of the transportation system. And part of that story is what Marianne just talked about, which is really how cool, how important, how vital active transportation is to, do you wanna pull that chart up? No, it's a picture of me, which is fine, but it's, anyway. How vital active transportation is, okay, it's up there now. So this is, I'm gonna have this slide up here for a while. So you can take a look at it. In 2018, the Danish Cycling Embassy and some folks in Denmark did a study of the full societal cost of transportation by various modes. And they have made hay with infrastructure investment from this chart. The chart is only these, I guess, oh yeah, it's only these first three bars. And I've translated from Danish Kroner and I've translated from kilometers to miles. So I've just juxtaposed the numbers from there to there. And what you'll see that for every mile driven, Danish society pays $1.28. For every kilometer bicycle, Danish society profits $1.16. And for every mile walked, Danish society profits $1.82. I have then taken the bicycle number and I have added a number for electric scooters and I've added two e-bike numbers. But I'm biased, but I'm gonna tell you my assumptions so you can see whether I'm out of line bias. And so the electrics, I've basically taken the bicycle assumptions and eliminated the health benefit from scooter. I've taken and I've pretty much done the same thing. I've increased the operating cost a little bit and I have increased the speed. So the time cost has been decreased in both of those things. And I've done two scenarios for e-bike. I've done one is which is at 20% physical activity contribution and one which is at 80% physical activity contribution. So in other words, one would be where you peddle a little bit but you're mostly, you have your thumb on the throttle or the motor's doing most of the work. The other is where is like a full-on bicycle where you're a full-on pedal assist bicycle where you're working pretty hard. In some cases you may be working as hard as a regular bicycle, but it's an issue. Now this is, I think, making an argument. What you'll notice in this chart is that the health gains are the real trump card throughout. That the difference in the total cost of society, that's because health is such a big portion of the economy. It's such a big cost, particularly for government. And it's also the big cost in our lives. The health of our family and friends and children and loved ones and all that sort of stuff is a big part of the different costs of our lives. Couple of points, and I'm gonna go through points real quick so we can have discussion. Number one, walking is number one. And walking is probably the most important thing from here. Number two, there's a bunch of stuff that's not on here. Skateboards, kick scooters, roller skates. Those are all things that are really important. Number three is that, well, I won't number them anymore, but issues of ability. People can make contributions to this story at all levels. In fact, if they're seniors or youth, there's ways of independent mobility that are completely unique. Another point that I think is really important is that it doesn't really matter whether it's recreation or utilitarian transportation. In transportation, with cars, 30% of car trips are social and recreational purposes. 18% are to and from work. So recreation is a big part of transportation and you get a lot of these benefits even without necessarily going from point A to point B. There is recreational travel. People drive around just for the fun of it. Ever heard of cruising? If anybody's ever seen risky business, you know that there's some recreational transit use as well. So you can do lots of things. I wanna talk a little bit about vehicles. And the first thing I wanna talk about is e-bikes. And one of the points I wanna make here, and I don't know what to do about it, okay? So it's an issue. We're about to see what I'll call a health disparity within e-bike adoption. And that issue is that there are two kinds of e-bikes. There are cheap ones and there are expensive ones. And the difference, and I'm thinking that those are pretty much the e-bikes in these two kinds of categories. So the characteristics of the cheap ones, let's see, do I have the next slide here? Is it, okay, I was gonna say this later, but I'll say it now, cause the slide is up. This is one of the most important technological advancements in America. And part of it is because walking is number one. This is a cargo walk. Very, you know, it's like a cargo bike, except it's for pedestrians. It's not very expensive. It's very widely available and will have major public health and goods movement and climate and all kinds of impacts. I'll help you out. I'll give you some money. SRAM is now selling these. So this is a typical Chinese e-bike. That when I say Chinese e-bike, I'm talking about the bikes. China has the most e-bikes of any country. There's, you see the, what I call vestigial, thank you very much. Vestigial pedals, but it's clearly not made. And this is public policy. That's what that is. That's saying that the machine has to have pedals even though nobody intends for them to be used. And so if you, so the two things that I think you should look at when it comes to e-bikes that are made for physical activity and aren't, one is what kind of sensor does it have? So there are two main kinds of sensors on them. One is a cadence sensor and the other is a torque sensor. A cadence sensor says how much you're going around and around and a torque sensor is how much power you're putting down. And so if you're given power by how much it's going around then it's not really giving you based upon your physical activity. There's a little bit in terms of spinning but it's not so much. If a torque sensor, it's done that way. The other thing to look at is to look at the shape and design of the bike. Now most of them are not this, but it's very simple. Is the bike made to be set upon or is the design optimized for physical activity? For using and contributing your physical power to the bicycle and so you can see by design. Again, I don't know what to do about this but the issue of how much physical activity people will get and we will create real health disparities if we are supplying the kinds of e-bikes that are not made to be used and not supplying the ones that are. This one would only work with a throttle but you could, there's a number of pedal assist bikes particularly in the class three area. So in Europe, the amount of power assist until the top speed is regulated. So as you get closer to the top speed, you have to have more and more pedal power and so when you're going 16 miles an hour on a European e-bike, it's all you. And in, but here we're not. So you've got, I'm sure many of you have experienced it. You're pedaling and then all of a sudden it's gone because you've reached, and you're really just spinning. But the point is very simple is that there is a health benefit from having a kind of bike where your contribution matters. Right. So I'm not, I wanna talk a little bit about low speed electric vehicles and I think that they are a good thing. If we have high speed, massive vehicles, it is a great thing to replace them with low speed micro vehicles but it's not something that we want. It's not something that contributes significantly to the physical activity element. So again, can we get the physical activity benefit and get the other benefits as well. We also wanna look at what is the physical activity implications of certain kinds of infrastructure. So if you look at the bike lanes in cities like Beijing, it's not the kind of place where you would want your child, your senior citizen to ride because there's a lot of vehicles going faster. So if we are creating a problem with higher speed vehicles, mixing with lower speed, acoustic pedaling, we may be creating a situation where more timid riders, younger riders, older riders will have difficulties. So we need to look at the public policy and that's relegating speed and also design issues. There's a whole world out there for how do we redesign our streets around a very different mix of vehicles including light electric and such but we need to keep in mind those immediate benefits on the near term, yeah, in the near term. What we're trying to avoid is we're trying to get the benefits of light, low speed vehicles without the disbenefits of motorizing active transportation. So we're trying to get those benefits and that's where the balance is and we need the public policies that do that and we'll talk more about that in a second. Just real quickly on climate, there's a couple things you can substitute vehicles, use lighter vehicles for heavier vehicles. Our primary strategy right now is fuel change. So we're going from gas to electric power. That's a good thing. Active mobility actually hits a home run on all of those. You've got vehicle substitution to a lighter vehicle. You've got electrification. You've also got a new energy source and well that's not a new energy source. It's a rediscovered energy source and I could talk about this for hours but basically we as human beings have evolved in order to solve the climate problem. We have within our genetic material and the reason for that is that when we were hunting and gathering, we were using a lot of energy and our bodies, that was a problem because if we used a lot of energy to find food then we would need even more food to replace the energy we just use. So our bodies adapted by economizing on the energy. So if people are very active, there's actually ways that our hypothalamus tells our organs and our brain and changes the energy consumption that our bodies use. Long story short is that we as human beings have this amazing potential for muscle power to do things like ride a bike and walk and it's mostly free from an environmental perspective, from an environmental perspective. Well there's sewage on all kinds of energy burning but we're gonna burn about the same. So I'd be happy to talk more if you wanna look up the energy paradox online. You can see some more, this is a lot of recent research but we now have, I think we should be talking about muscle power as a renewable energy source in line with wind and solar and maybe even better and more powerful ultimately than any of those things because we've got 330 million residents in the United States who are, who have the ability to make some level of contribution. That's actually a very complicated question and we'll talk about it afterwards, okay? I wanna sort of, one more thing is think about riding your bike on, let's say riding your bike to a school, riding your bike to a school. Think about riding your bike to a school on a cold day. Think about riding your bike to a school on a cold rainy day. Think about riding your bike to a school on a cold rainy day with your child. Think about riding to school on a cold rainy day with your child and her violin, okay? Okay, so I'm laying that out because the challenge here, the challenge in front of us with the physical activity is actually to make it a regular and routine form of transportation. And we have to look at incentivizing in the circumstances where we can't just, oh, biking is fun, you know? And we have to look at incentivizing those. The truth is that if you go to the Netherlands right now, there will be someone riding with their child on a cold rainy day with the violin and they figured it out. They figured it out because there's ways of protecting the violin, there's bikes that can carry children, there's rain gear that you can use, you can actually be pretty comfortable if you do it on a regular basis. But they figured it out because the benefit and the utility are so high, particularly compared to the other options, that they figured out those kinds of things. And so I think what we need to do is incentivize and I could talk a lot about sort of the incentives, the incentives will get us to the behavior just like in Chicago where I'm from. You know, we used to have almost nobody biking to the train station at all. Now I would say that January biking to the train station is about 50% of July biking to the train station. It's pretty high, it didn't change immediately, but when the utility is understood, you get some, we just need to get people to that point through incentives. In Denmark, they have public health care. And so when they save a dollar on health costs, the government directly reaps that and if the government spends 50 cents saving that dollar, they're definitely gonna benefit. Here, we do have some significant government health care costs, but it's less and a lot of it's in the private sector. So I think one of the things we have to look at with the benefits being on the health side is we really need to look at the employers for incentives. And so one of the things that I'm researching right now looking at is more employer-based programs that incentivize all cycling, not just commute trips to work, but all cycling in order to make that happen. We could talk about bike coin, which is some ideas of actually getting people to generate income. We could talk about there's some issues of once we're trying to figure out what to do with public resources and public funds, what does that mean for shared fleets? And how can we incentivize shared fleets to incentivize the physical activity parts that might have something to do with the design of the e-bikes in those fleets. It might have something to do with making sure that acoustic bikes are still very much a part of shared fleets. It may mean that if you walk out of your office building in downtown LA, it might mean that the only convenient option as you walk out the door is not 100% motorized vehicle, but that there are some physical activity-based active transportation options available to you. There's a number of options we could talk about. I wanna end with talking about words. And words matter. I really don't like when micro-mobility encompasses biking and e-bikes because I'm very interested in us drawing a thick black line between active mobility and sedentary mobility. And I think that it's very important. I really dislike the term vulnerable road users. First of all, motorists are vulnerable as well. Many more motorists die on the roads, but it's like saying, these are the bugs that we don't wanna squash. And it's not so much much more like active mobility, biking and walking, because those are positive impacts. And I think we need to look for ways of better documenting this set of health benefits and then the other access, affordability, climate, et cetera, benefits. But we can talk active travel. We can talk active transportation. We can talk active mobility, but I think we wanna put active out there front and center and lead towards prioritized decision making around infrastructure, policy, subsidies, incentives, and all those kinds of things. So hopefully that gave you some things for us to discuss further. Why don't we open it up to some questions? Hello, I'm here. Thank you so much for the very interesting and informative presentation from both of you. My name is Gabriel. I'm with the Bicycle Kitchen that's in Los Angeles. We're like a community space. I think it's a number of really interesting points that you brought up. It is interesting the hard line that you said between active mobility and, sorry, sedentary and non-sedentary. Partially, I think because there are a range of e-bikes specifically, like you had mentioned, and even within a single e-bike, you can pick different levels of pedal assist, et cetera, et cetera. So it's not necessarily this binary or extremely segmented thing, just as a side note. But I think the core issue of all of this or at least your interest and I think a very worthwhile point is specifically the, like this, all these changes basically. And how from a policy perspective, do we incentivize perhaps the ideal outcome? So if your position is that we should be incentivizing specifically active, non-sedentary transportation, that would involve, I feel like from policy side, subsidies of some sort to economically incentivize people. Because I think from a number of perspective, like health benefits and all this stuff are good, but to get people to actually specifically change their behavior requires some sort of mechanism in the sense that the $10 million grant that you had mentioned will lead to more people buying e-bikes that might not have beforehand because they're then economically incentivized. So I guess that was kind of a long way to say, I guess what incentives would you like to see like specifically in the active or non-sedentary realm of transportation? Yeah, so it's a great question. So SRAM has 4,000 employees globally. About 1,000 of them, the people who do sales and design and engineering are like, bike crazy like me. 3,000 of them are factory workers who make derailleurs and suspension forks and all those kinds of things. And many of them are sort of much more mainstream, I would say mainstream America, but there's mainstream Taiwanese, mainstream Portuguese, mainstream Americans. There's all kinds of folks in the factories. I think that it's sort of easiest for SRAM to put our money where our mouth is and to document, to do an incentive program where we're really providing, is it money? Is it time off? Is it a mix of incentives? Probably some support mechanisms. So people have bikes, know how to use them, all that kind of stuff. But to do a program with our money, we will benefit because we will have happier, healthier, more productive employees. But we should also document what the outcomes are. Where the savings that are up on the chart actually come in. And I think we could then get other private sector interest in that and I think by collecting the data, we could then look at where are their opportunities to do public programs. But they're then based on experience. So yeah. I just wanted to add something to that. The infrastructure making it harder to drive is very helpful. And I know in the town I live in, oh and the town I live in is a bike friendly town, but it's the downtown you just never wanna drive there and I think that's true of Palo Alto. You just don't wanna drive there because it's misery to get through. So changing by infrastructure I mean changing it so you have wider bike lanes, cars have to drive slower, et cetera, et cetera. And then people choose to bike or choose to walk because it's faster. Yes, yeah. Basically you could say it's a cost and convenience equation and so it's sort of how it is that, what's the cost and convenience of driving versus the cost and convenience of cycling and when you tweak either side of the equation and sometimes the tweaks on the car side are more important. The most famous example is the London congestion charge where there were dramatic decreases in traffic because the cost went up. Do you have examples of incentives that work as well as disincentives for car driving? Like does it really work to pay somebody 50 cents a mile to ride a bike compared to charging 50 cents a mile to drive a car? It's important to answer your question in terms of examples. The theory is that it works if they have a place to ride and if there's a basic floor of safety, then those kind of incentives have a possibility of doing things. If you don't have those examples, I mean if you don't have a situation where people can safely go places, it's a problem. The simple examples are where people give discounts or other kinds of things for people who arrive by bike or that kind of thing. Well, up to that. Alameda created a new transportation agency and I got a business there and they started charging me for months for the new transportation agency for incentivizing public transportation and car pooling. And I asked, well, we're all bike and the company, 75% of the people bike and what kind of incentives are you gonna have for bikes? Then I got them connected with some app that could track that and they kind of agreed to do like a bike incentive for biking to Alameda and I say, okay, well, I'll pay for the thing. I mean, now that I had a lot of choice on the matter, but I got them to do that and some other businesses agreed and then they put it on the back burner. But I was wondering if you have seen any other programs, the people from the app said that there was something that was gonna start up in Portland a couple of years ago and I was wondering if there was anything like that because the idea was that we were gonna get paid like a $1.50 for every day that we bike, every direction we bike to work. Yeah. There could be a long answer to that. I just wanna go back to the, so when a government agency sort of has their head down and they're trying to incentivize transit, which is what was happening in your business district and what happens there is that the active mobility's interest, that sort of societal goal to increase active mobility wasn't on the table there. And so you end up, you're an afterthought and you eventually get forgotten. There are incentive programs that have specifically dealt with active mobility. There's a whole set of programs called Individualized Marketing. Travel Smart is one of the brand names around that and it's a multimodal program where you got individualized coaching and then incentives and it's, they're usually based on employers. So for instance, there's a lot of employers in Silicon Valley that have too many cars and they're required to reduce those cars and so they just start upping the amount of money until the cars go away, but people are having to do the other things. It's not specifically aimed at active transportation, people carpool, people take transit because the options aren't there. But those are real world examples. You do get changes of behavior, but you have to sort of keep raising the amount of money until the change occurs. Thank you. I have a couple things here. First of all, I want to clarify SRAM's position, official position on e-bikes if you can do that for us. And then if you tell us that you are building or intend to be selling e-bikes, et cetera, I had a thought about your idea about incentivizing people to pedal more and I thought, well, giving your torque meters, et cetera, et cetera, maybe built into the bicycle for each watt of power pushed on those pedals and app that would give them some rebate of some sort. For every time they put a little bit more energy into the pedal, their cost of owning that bike goes down. Yeah, I love that idea. That's great. And then real quick, I wanted to mention this guy's having a little trouble here. The bike superhighways and the controversy between those and also e-bikes on a class three bikes in particular in bike lanes and the new legislation in California, what SRAM's position is on that as well. So SRAM's position on bikes is our spec on bikes. So we do not make bikes. We make bike parts. If an e-bike has our chain on it, our derailleur on it, our brakes on it, our suspension fork on it, we are for that e-bike. And so we don't have a policy position on that. We don't make a motor. In general, we're four bikes. My job is to work with the rest of the bike movement, other bike companies, et cetera, to grow cycling and grow e-cycling as well. And so that's where we're trying to go. I think that this issue of physical activity, it becomes an important piece of cycling, including e-bikes competing with other modes of transportation where there is competition. And I think that's important. It may mean some trade-offs in the industry and those trade-offs are happening in different ways in different parts of the world. And it's kind of messy here in the United States right now, both with different laws in different states with... Different markets, there's the utilitarian and pavement market, there's the dirt, which is a very, dirt and mountain biking, which is a very different thing as well. The whole issue of e-mountain bikes, where mountain bikes are allowed. And so it's really kind of messy and we're hoping to try to bring some sanity to it, working primarily through our industry association, which in the United States is people for bikes. And so we're working with them on all these kinds of things. The other thing that makes it really cloudy here in the United States is there's a lot of illegal bikes out there, bikes that don't meet any standards or regulation that are sort of screwing things up because they are becoming a fast, heavy, disruptive force on non-motorized trails, thus making those places less attractive to other users and it causes a lot of problems. So we're trying to sort that all out. It would be great if SRAM could join that conversation that's been happening all weekend about e-bikes and proponents versus those who are trying to steer people more towards traditional pedal-powered bikes and those people who are like, no, any bike is a great bike, let's get people out on bikes. And maybe if SRAM, I would love to hear SRAM help facilitate some of those conversations because there's been a lot of debate just this weekend alone about the couple different approaches to that subject. So thank you so much. This has been interesting things. So outside of the personal choices to benefit me, staying active, it seems that most people need a monetary incentive. Or disincentive for a choice. And right now, in order to save the world from not just active transportation or any active transportation, but from carbon buildup and climate change, weave the government's interested in some senses, a carbon cost. If you produce carbon, then you can offset that in some ways, so there's a monetary disincentive for producing carbon. Can we integrate the, not just the health savings, but the savings to the planet by instituting some kind of incentive or disincentive for misuse of calories, energy. And I say that lightly, but you go ahead. So we're getting into the interface between public policy and sort of personal choice and personal freedom and all that kind of stuff. And so what I wanna bring up is an analogy with sugar. So we all know that, who here likes cookies, cake, pie, donuts, et cetera, bring it on, bring it on. Yeah, okay. And so we all know that if you eat too much of that, you ain't gonna be very happy. And so we sometimes try to do things with public policy to change diet and change those kind of choices, but mostly the front is how do you get people to understand that a healthy diet is better for you and that you make choices and things need to be balanced. And I think we're in the same kind of space with this. Well, it hasn't worked real well. And I think we, you know, but then we need to figure out how to do it better because there aren't a lot of choices. We can't force travel choices on people. We can nudge and we can use appropriate public policy tools. I don't think, well, how should I say this? You say it hasn't worked real well. There is a fair bit of healthy eating, you know, that goes on in society. And I'll bet most people here, you know, pay attention to healthy eating in their lives. I think we should look at the public, I won't call it education as much as people living as human beings within society. And so I think we need to start talking about those things. And I think that we could get some more movement around, you know, active trans, active mobility, which would create a basis for more policy change and maybe get some kind of flywheel going. So it's hard, but I think that it's, there's more that could be done. Like the choice is made for us where they make it really, really difficult to bike. You know, really difficult to walk. It takes like, you know, three hours to get, you know, to Daly City if you take public transportation. You know, so it's a lot easier to get on the car. You know, so it's not the individual. I think, you know, it's like they say, build it and they'll come up with it. It's like they say, build it and they'll come. And I think, you know, the government is failing, you know, or society is failing, you know, culture is failing, you know. It's like it's not providing options for us to bike to San Francisco, you know. It's, you know, I've been waiting since 90 something, you know, and I think it has to do with that, you know. So I think everybody in the room agrees society is failing us. You know, that we need to, we need to create a, we need to create a new system, you know. And I think that people are here at this conference because they're working on the public policy pieces. We also have to try to impact individual choices because there is some range of individual choice, even in the current environment. It may not be the trip to Daly City, you know, but it might be, you know, the trip in the neighborhood and there are certainly some travel that people can do. And I think that that will help, you know, again, get that flywheel going. Okay, I'll make this short. Yeah, I think it's a really interesting discussion about impacting like behavior and stuff like that. Personally, I feel like economic incentives like really can impact behavior, you know. I think like you had mentioned like, so like biking on my own accord is and getting, like I get enjoyment from that, but like I don't think everyone does or is conscious of that per se, but I just think that like economic incentivization can have impact, you know, and just, you know, gas prices go up and people drive less and it is interesting to think like how that could specifically be applied to bikes in a wider mandate, either via like some employer-based incentivization like you had mentioned or something else, some other perhaps tool, you know, via at the state level or something like that. One other small comment that I think is interesting too is the discrepancy with e-bikes that, you know, we've had and has happened a lot of these kind of in where to fall on that. And I feel like to some extent that depends on what your end goal is, you know, if it's like from an active perspective, then yeah, sitting e-bike that doesn't allow for a pedal isn't in line with that per se, but if the end goal is specifically climate change related and or replacing a car trip, then like anything from a utilitarian perspective that replaces that should perhaps be advocated for, even if it's not the ideal scenario, I guess. Let me just mention the incentive issue. There's actually something that we can all do on the incentive issue and that's do pilots and demonstrations. So, you know, an employer could pick 100 people that work for them and do a trial, see what kind of incentives, you know, make a difference, see if measure before and after and see what's going on. A community organization could do that. Philanthropy could help with pilots and demonstrations and those could then lead to programs at larger employers and then again to government. So I think trying things, you know, makes a lot of difference. Happy to answer questions, talk afterwards. This has been great. Thank you all very much. Thank you.