 It would have been really embarrassing to have an empty room except for the committee members. There's a few committee members. We have a WCSU school start time committee and the members are Matt DeGroote, Chris McVeigh, Reuben Bennett, and Scott Thompson and myself. And Allison Cornwell. Oh, Allison Cornwell is now on the committee too. So we are basically, what happens if you miss the meeting you get appointed chair. So what we have outlined is our biggest thing. And I hope you guys had time to look at the website, the WCSU website has some of the materials. We wanted people to read articles and studies about adolescence and sleep. And we have a timeline because we try to outline how we could engage the community and talk about the issue, get feedback, how does it relate to us. And I'll turn everything over to Phil to go from here. Great. Thanks, Karen. So there are some index cards and those are really important because the committee is really committed to getting feedback back to folks. So if you could grab an index card and we're going to do, start with a little sharing here at the beginning just as we do in our restorative circles here at U32, our responsive classroom to elementary school. So I'm going to ask the one person to share. We're going to try to make a circle here so that everyone's backs to themselves. So I think we're just, I'll have you just push a little bit back, sorry I don't have to forget everyone's names in a minute here. But just share who you are. You don't need to share your email, but that's the reason we want the email on the card so we can get you back the notes from this meeting. And we'll talk more about the purpose in a little bit. What schools your children attend right now and what brought you here? Anybody that would like to start to go first? And which direction would you like to go? Would you like to go to your right or your left? Traditionally in board gaming goes to the left. So that's fine. So why don't we go back there to the table right behind you. My name's David Lawrence. My wife Sarah and I have twins that are five-year-old and are training in their second-year pre-K at Romney and will be starting in the garden at Romney next year. And what brought me here is that I myself am a night owl and would prefer that the children not have to be up so early, but in general I'm also a big believer in the studies that show we're just pushing what you mean thanks to early. So I'm going to use this as a pass-around. So Orcas, take me to this for folks who aren't here tonight, and you guys can just use. Is that going to be okay? You don't have to do that. Okay. So, all right. So I mean, so we'll just go right over here to these two. Hey, I'm Romney here. I'm Oliver. I am the eighth-grader here. I am a sales manager. All right. We are going to pass this. I'm leaving. I'm on the start time period. I'm Michael Jameuso. I have two kids, one at E32 and one at Calis Elementary. And I just came to learn more about the issue and where things stand, and I'm also interested in having a child at elementary and at E32 in an upper grade. You know, obviously, there's different start times for them and how that could potentially change that. Hey, I'm Larry Gilbert. I live in East Montpelier. I've had three kids pass through these halls, come and gone. But I'm still very interested in the topic and for that science, I think it's pretty compelling and I'm very interested in how resilient as a community we are to change. Hi, I'm Anne Gilbert. Yep, our three kids have gone through elementary school in this district in Midland High School. And so we don't have kids now, but I'm interested in what's happening with the schools. I'm also very concerned about substance abuse in Washington County and in this district. And if there's anything about changing start times that would help decrease alcohol or other drug use, then I'm eager to hear about that. Hi, I'm Julie Bradshaw. I have one daughter at Calis Elementary in sixth grade, so she'll be here next year. I'm just interested to know where things are at in terms of the decision-making process. And I definitely lean towards a later start time and being aware of the research. And Cali Weather, I have two kids at Calis. I have a son in third grade and a daughter in sixth grade. She'll be moving here next year. So there'll be different start times as well. So I'm in that boat. I'm also going to divulge that I teach at Calis Elementary School. So it affects me a little bit from my job. And here, just to get more information, kind of what the thinking is currently and what other parents think. I'm Amy LePage, East Montpelier, and both of my kiddos will be here next year. I've been really curious about this topic for a while now. And really glad to hear that there's a conversation. So I was eager to come and be a part of the conversation. And I was eager to have these guys be a part of the conversation just because we've been exploring how do you become a part of the community and start to just have the possibility for change, even when it might be a lot. And I am also intrigued in how technology plays a role in this conversation as well, knowing that more kids are on computers more and screens more because their homework is due that way. And also knowing that that means they're probably on their screens later. So how does that somehow tie in with this conversation as well? And in terms of their mental health well-being, because they are going to be exposed more and more to screen time and if they can get more sleep. If that really means they get more sleep. I don't know. The late start time. I'm Yvonne Qualch and I have a son in freshman year here. And he is a special needs child. So changing the start and stop times are a major problem for us. My name is Jennifer Micah and I have two students in the high school and I am very much in support of the start time. I think it's been a long time coming and I'm a strong opponent. I think that there's a lot of research that supports it. And I think there's very little downside to it. I know that there are scheduling issues, but we all have scheduling issues. And I think that the well-being of our children really depends on some of this. And if we want to teach our children that science matters and that research matters, then I think we need to apply it. Corinne Streitsberg. My husband and I are alum of the school. As are our five kids. I've got a grandson at East Montpelier. And I now happen to be on the Berlin School Board. This conversation has been had before a number of years ago. I'm always interested in anything that is going on in the community. It affects so many people. I'm not really forwarded or against it, but it affects all the students, all the teachers, all the families, some of the things in the community, all the caregivers, and other businesses and stuff. So I'm just really curious what everybody's going to say and how it can work out. I'm Greta Lother. And I have a son at Calisthenic Elementary. He's in fifth grade. I'm here because I really support the later start time. I think it's a great idea. I've read some of the research and it seems really good. I think it would be good for him. I'm Matthew DeGrode. I live in Worcester. My son is a junior at Montpelier High School, actually, which starts at eight. I had a freshman here at U32 and a fourth grader at Doty in Worcester. And it was kind of caring to introduce me as a member of the committee, but I was just appointed. This is literally my first meeting. So I'm learning as much as anyone that's here. And I asked to be on this committee because I'm interested in basically how we use the school day. Are we using it to best effect? Things that we can do maybe that would yield better outcomes or better opportunities for kids. My name is Wendy Moore. I have a son in seventh grade at U32 and a daughter at sixth grade at Rummy. I'm here as a parent, a strong proponent for later start times. I teach seventh and eighth grade science. So I see these adolescents every single day in my classroom coming in exhausted. And I see the effects on their learning and their moods and their development. So it's not only my kids, but it's also, you know, I see it in my students and just the amount of research that has come out in the past 20 years around sleep and how it affects every single function in our bodies and particularly adolescents in brain development. Physical, emotional, mental and academic well-being are really affected by sleep. And so I'm hoping, I'm here hoping to find a way to balance all of this, these benefits with the needs of the community because I know there are a lot of questions around it that have come up before. And I'm hoping we can find a solution because it's so important. It's just really, I think. I'm Carl Whitkey. I'm from Worcester. I have two seniors here at U32 and an eighth grader. And I have a junior at Montpelier, same as Matthew. I've been following this research for years. I think it's fascinating. I've always been kind of like Larry. I'm fascinated in our community's resistance to change and that process. I'm really just here to support the committee's work. I think it's important work. And I think following the research makes sense, but the after-school activities becomes, to my mind, that that's the real challenge. Can we fit the extracurriculars into our day in a constructive way at the same time as we set up our in-school darning time to be its best? Thanks. I'm Scott Thompson from Calis. I'm on the U32 board and on the committee as well. I have two kids here at U32 at the moment, one a 12th grader, the other a 9th grader. And I'm actually really thrilled to see everyone here, both parents and former parents or people who don't have children at the school but who are still interested in what goes on here. I think it's really vitally important to everybody, not just to parents present and near future. I know this is really a hard thing. It's a major undertaking and there are potential major adjustments that have to be made. I'm convinced that they're possible. They're all possible. And that thanks to your help getting here and trying to at least take a first cut at brainstorming through the concerns, the possibilities that will really have a big impetus behind us to try to work all of these issues out and get somewhere really good. Hi. My name is Chris from the committee. I serve on the Romney board. I have children like Ann and Larry, who are long gone from the school system, although I'm kind of having second pass through as my new wife, social Anderson Rio, reminded me the other day because she has a son named Ace who's in Romney now. So it is a very real issue in our family. I think the studies are pretty compelling in terms of benefits for both grammar school students and high school students. But I do think the obstacles are community reaction and really trying to figure out a way that the change that hopefully is going to come will not be too hard and impact on members of our community and hopefully we'll be able to address or at least propose solutions that will help everyone to transition if the transition comes. Hi. My name is Allison Cornwell. I am also on the Romney board and on the start time committee. I was interested in this issue. Well, I have young children. Let's see, eight soon to be seven and soon to be four. So it doesn't quite apply to us yet. They all still like to get up very early. But as an undergraduate in college, a good friend of mine worked for Dr. Dement who is kind of a sleep doctor in the U.S. and he is a very odd man, but he's very endearing. He's very charming. And he actually would have these long philosophical discussions with students like well maybe we're only here to sleep. Like we're only awake so that we can have a life so that we can then sleep. And I always thought that that sounded insane until I had children when I quit sleeping entirely at which point I realized just how important it is and for many of us who have young children who have literally gone for years without having the kind of sleep that we should, it's a powerful drive. So I thought there were some fantastic issues that I'm particularly interested in. The relation to substance abuse, I thought was a really fascinating one, especially as it applies to drugs that students take to help improve their performance. And also the screens. I think the screens are really an important thing as well. What does it mean? I have trouble focusing late at night when I'm doing work. It's like even I have the temptation to go to Facebook and I don't even like Facebook. So what is this like for children that have, and I don't even know what Instagram, I think that's a website. So I think these are all really important topics. I'm particularly interested in what Chris brought up at the mechanics of how this can work and very specifically what the specific mechanical objections are. I think that they have to do with, when I was talking to Karen earlier about some families really rely on their older children for child care in the afternoon. So I'm hoping that we can talk on that a bit to start to get a feel for what the specific obstacles are. And I'm going to ask one last person who's giving up the speed, but just we're going to introduce each other. We're asking everyone to introduce themselves and what might have brought you here. Okay, I'm Deborah Smoller and I'm here. I have a senior and an eighth grader and very intrigued that the conversation is starting here. I was actually surprised that it's starting because places and people get entrenched in the way things have always been. And so I was surprised to hear that there's conversation going on about it. Great, thanks. Yeah. So thank you all for sharing. And Deborah, if you can put out a note card. So we're trying to get everyone's email so we can put everything together and we're committing to within a week from tonight. We'll get notes from this meeting. You're going to create a lot of information for us tonight. You're our, this is the worker group. So the committee worked really hard in two meetings to develop a process. As you can see up there tonight is really, we're going to do a little learning together. We're going to use a TED Talk video and we're going to ask you to use a little bit of a protocol that we use in schools. Callie can help us because you're used to this when I know you know it Callie. Sorry, I had to. That is really going to get away for you to have a discussion because as I heard the group talk about we have many different levels of knowledge that are in the room. So we want to at least get us to a common ground that we can talk from and have this conversation. The purpose of tonight is really to learn together and kind of figure out what the issues are. There's a member of the committee at each table. We're probably going to go down to four tables or maybe we'll see, maybe we have the three of you move up front with these groups. And the idea is to have four or five people at each table. There's a series of questions. We're going to give you a protocol and you're going to have to discuss. I'll talk about that in a little bit. You're going to give us some feedback back on the paper, on the chart paper and the committee members there will help chart that on three questions after the protocol discussing the TED Talk. It's about 10, 11 minutes. We're going to give you the transcript as well. So if you want to highlight it, we have highlighters around here. We have pens around here. You can do whatever you want to mark it up but it's just a way to start the discussion about really learning together and what are the issues. That's the goal tonight. No more than that. Then on the 11th we're coming back to brainstorm solutions without saying, yeah, but or you can't do this because of the schedule or think of whatever is going to stop it. We're not going to try to stop the free throw. What could we possibly do? Get that together then come back together on the 23rd and then try to do what are our top three options? How we combine and put them together and based on that the committee as that's what and community involvement here it's really we're using you as a resource to build the knowledge and then we're going to use a wider range with a survey. An electronic survey will go out to people and that survey we'll use to bring back and say what people think of the different questions that we have because we may not have the exact option people may not be going on the option but like, hey, we think we've heard childcare is an issue. Is that really an issue? Or maybe it's not. But we need to hear that from the community. And then on the 6th this committee has been charged by the Washington Central Supervisory Union Board to give a report back, a progress report. The idea of their charge and anyone's on the committee to represent it, please correct me is that we're looking for not the 1819 school year but for the 1920 because we figured to get all everything set we wouldn't be able to go. Did I misrepresent anything there or anything anyone want to add? No, just that really this is there's no set decision or anything to decide and I come I'm of that area and so I'm always just going for the plan. You know, I want to know what medications what tests and I need to stop and look at the bigger picture and decide if this is something that is important and compelling enough to work out those details and what are those details, you know that you mentioned rethinking somebody the whole school day, I think Matthew did and that's also if you think about it and we do get really entrenched. I know, when I grew up the high schoolers started at 730 the high schoolers at 9 we went for we had full 8-hour days not short 7-hour days it was just very different different parts of the country within our little community. I remember gymnastics classes my kids couldn't take in elementary school because Montpelier got out at 3 and they started at 330 and I got out at 330 so these are just like details we live with. What's going to give us the kids who use less substances or are better in school in athletics, etc, etc happier, healthier beings I'm glad you're all here. I was just wondering if there is any kind of details that you guys have to share out with us as far as if anybody's looked at what the data has been for other schools who have made this change or is busing truly able to be flipped around or has anybody thought about this or are there some of those things that people have at least walked through some? Yes, yes, I will say that pretty much any time we start talking we have the busing study we can do so there are solutions there when you think of sporting events say there's a baseball game and the team needs to be an hour away where they've been released early these are us getting down on the weeds and solutions which is where I go and then as far as the data these that we have on the website are the ones where schools who have made a shift and now a lot of these schools are making a big shift their kids who are getting at the bus stop at 6.30 and starting school at 7 or 7.30 so they're talking going those kids like till 9 so they're making big shifts but in the communities they do there's article after article they see the sports teams perform better they see better grades, less absenteeism less illness, less depression there's a shift in the schools that made those major changes so there's compelling data there how many schools locally have done this? the closest I have found southern Vermont was at Bennington I think did it the most recently and that was about 5 or 6 years ago and so I don't have their data I can get going for that I'd have to look I frankly haven't surveyed the high schools for a little while on this we thought one things we wanted to do we could get into all the options and all the details but we really that's the next meeting so really here it's about what are the issues so if those are one of the important issues or something you need more information about we're going to get that down on chart paper and we're going to collect all that so we can try to get that out ahead of time to all of you and it helps us get that information so you have that information for the next time when we start talking about options at that point at 3.32 start time is 8 a.m. yes it's 9 it's currently 8 and 9 at 3.32 8 o'clock start time we're talking about district Y right now the transportation is linked together it doesn't mean it has to be it's just the way it is but we're talking about everything I thought I had turned that back on so here's what we're going to do thank you so you have two pieces of paper in front of you you have the transcript of this speech of this TED talk and you have what we use we call the 4A's protocol it's probably what I go to the most and we're going to have you join we'll probably make four tables because I think with the people we have here we'll get five of us so I'm going to ask Carl and Scott for you to join a table and for Larry and Anne to join a table and we'll try to distribute that way as you see it there's some highlighters there's some pens around here we've got a big box of highlighters the and there's some sharp paper you'll want something like that color you're more willing to use those you can circle you can do whatever you want on this paper it's just a way of looking at it what we want you to look for the facilitators of the table which are the committee members are going to ask you to do this they're going to ask you to look at this and you're going to just do like a one minute share each so if I'm mad at this table I'm going to say okay so let's talk about what do we think this author in this case the speech Wendy I can't remember her last name right now what assumptions was she making when she gave this speech what do you agree with that was said in the speech these are all right there on that protocol what do you want to argue with and what do you want to aspire to okay so those are the and that's going to be a way to get you to start talking about it and then after that there are three questions that your facilitators will help you with but it's basically so after we talk about using the 4A protocols what does this mean as we explore changing school start times so what do you think what does this mean to you and we'll put that down on the chart paper and then your facilitators have all these questions right in front of them so I can help you with what information do you what other information do you need because we were just talking about some of that just now and what questions do you still have and what we're hoping to do is take all that gather it will report out to the whole group and then we'll get that written up for hopefully a week from this Monday we'll put it up on the we'll send you an email saying here it is as well as we'll put it up on the start school start time website and we're going to ask you we'll talk about next steps after we do this what questions do you have I went pretty quickly there Cali yeah yep yeah yeah we're also going to ask you to help get more people here Cali I have a question about this I just have a general question like so you had mentioned that this has been brought up before how long ago was this visited like how the latest information I have is 2008 2006 to 2008 somewhere is there anything transpired from that initial like no it stopped there's a survey that was done and the issue of daycare was a significant factor and I think not moving forward just because a lot of families relied on older kids to be home and time for take care of younger kids and that just that was a significant factor I think in not moving forward but there was a districtwide survey that went out and you know there was a lot of people in favor of it but again there was just a significant amount of distance based on family needs so I have two small any other questions before we watch this I think a lot will come out of these discussions we're going to learn a lot tonight there are two speakers over here I've done turned up hopefully they won't be you'll all be over here or they won't be too loud okay brain development particularly in the parts of the brain that are responsible for those high older thinking jump ahead sorry about that pitch black outside my 14 year old son is fast asleep in his bed sleeping the reckless deep sleep a teenager I flip on the light and physically shake the poor boy awake because I know that like ripping off a bandaid it's better to get it over with quickly I have a friend who reels fire just to rouse her sleeping team and another who got so fed up that she had to dump cold water on her son's head just to get him out of bed sound brutal but perhaps familiar every morning I ask myself knowing what I know and doing what I do for a living be doing this to my own son you see I'm a sleep researcher far too much about sleep and the consequences of sleep loss I know that I've deprived my son of the sleep he desperately needs as a rapidly growing teenager I also know that by waking him up hours before his natural biological clock tells him he's ready I'm literally robbing him of his dreams the type of sleep most associated with learning memory consolidation and emotional processing but it's not just my kid that's being deprived of sleep sleep deprivation American teenagers is an epidemic only about one in ten can fit eight to ten hours of sleep per night recommended by sleep scientists and pediatricians now if you're thinking to yourself few we're doing good my kid's getting eight hours remember eight hours is the minimum recommendation you're barely passing eight hours is kind of like getting a seat on your report card many factors contributing to this epidemic but a major factor preventing teens from getting the sleep they need is actually a matter of public policy not hormones social lives or snapchat across the country many schools are starting around 7 30 a.m. or earlier despite the fact that major medical organizations recommend that middle and high schools start no earlier than 8 30 a.m. these early start policies have a direct effect on how much or really how little sleep American teenagers are getting they're also putting teenagers and their parents in a fundamentally unwinnable fight that gets their own bodies around the time of puberty teenagers experience a delay in their biological clock which determines when we feel most awake and when we feel most sleepy this is driven in part by a shift in the release of the hormone melatonin teenagers bodies wait to start releasing melatonin until around 11 p.m. which is two hours later than what we see in adults or younger children this means that waiting a teenager up at 6 a.m. is the biological equivalent of waiting in an adult up at 4 a.m. unfortunate days when I have to wake up at 4 a.m. I'm a zombie functional useless I can't think straight I'm irritable and I probably shouldn't be driving a car but this is how many American teenagers feel every single school day in fact many of the shall we say unpleasant characteristics have to chalk up to being a teenager moodiness, irritability, laziness, depression could be a product of chronic sleep deprivation for many teens battling chronic sleep loss their go-to strategy to compensate is consuming large quantities of caffeine in the form of veinty frappuccinos or energy drinks and shots so essentially we found an entire population of tired but wired youth advocates of sleep finally start times that adolescence is a period of dramatic brain development particularly in the parts of the brain that are responsible for those higher order thinking processes including reasoning, problem solving and good judgment in other words the very type of brain activity that's responsible for bringing in those impulsive and often risky behaviors that are so characteristic of adolescence and that are so terrifying for teenagers they know that like the rest of us when teenagers don't get the sleep they need their brains, their bodies and behaviors suffer with both immediate and lasting effects they can't concentrate their attention plummets and many will even show behavioral signs that mimic ADHD but the consequences of teen sleep loss go well beyond the classroom sadly contributing to many of the mental health problems that skyrocket during adolescence including substance use depression and suicide in our work with teens from LA Unified School District we found that teens with sleep problems were 55% more likely to have used alcohol in the past month in another study with over 30,000 high school students they found that for each hour of lost sleep there was a 38% increase in feeling sad or hopeless and a 58% increase in teen suicide attempts and if that's not enough teens who skip out on sleep are at increased risk for a host of physical health problems that plague our country including obesity, heart disease and diabetes then there's the risk of putting a sleep deprived teen driver's license behind the wheel studies have shown that getting 5 hours or less of sleep per night is the equivalent of driving with a blood alcohol content above the legal limit advocates of sleep friendly start times and researchers in this area have produced tremendous science showing the tremendous benefits of later start times the findings are unequivocal and as a sleep scientist I rarely get to speak with that kind of certainty teens from districts with later start times get more sleep to the naysayers who may think that the schools start later teens will just stay up later the truth is their bed times stay the same but their wake up times get extended resulting in more sleep they're more likely to show up for school school absence is dropped by 25% in one district and they're less likely to drop out not surprisingly they do better academically so this has real implications for reducing the achievement gap standardized test scores in math and reading go up by 2-3 percentage points that's as powerful as reducing class sizes by one third fewer students or replacing a so-so teacher in the classroom than anyone their mental and physical health improves and even their families are happier I mean who wouldn't enjoy a little more pleasantness for our teens and a little less crankiness even their communities are safer because car crash rates go down a 70% reduction in one district so given these tremendous benefits you might think well this is a no brainer right? so why have we as a society failed to heed this call often the argument against later start times goes something like this why should we delay start times for teenagers we need to toughen them up so they're ready for the real world but that's like saying to the parent of a two year old don't let Johnny nap or he won't be ready for kindergarten delaying start times also presents critical challenges not just for students and their families but for communities as a whole updating bus routes increased transportation costs impact on sports care before or after school these are the same concerns that come up in district after district time again around the country as school start times are debated and no legitimate concerns but these are problems we have to work through they are not valid excuses for failing to do the right thing for our children which is to start middle and high schools no earlier than 8 30 am and in districts around the country big and small who have made this change they found that these fears are often unfounded and far outweighed by the tremendous benefits for our student health and performance for our collective public safety so tomorrow morning when coincidentally we get to set our clock back by an hour and you get that delicious extra hour of sleep and the day seems a little longer and a little more full of hope think about the tremendous power of sleep and think about what a gift it would be for our children to be able to wake up naturally in harmony with their own biology thank you and pleasant dreams so I think we have some natural tables here it looks like we've got group cells going it's about by the clock in the back there it's quarter of 7 so we'll probably go to about quarter after 7 or 20 after 7 and I'll watch how each group's doing and kind of see where you guys are at but go around share the four A's first and then we'll get to the three questions that we'll chart on each on a sheet of paper and then we'll come back and report out everyone clear? okay the questions are going to turn far out so maybe we can just go on I'll serve as an assumption she definitely assumes that the research is correct but we're going to buy her talk to accept that she doesn't feel that they really are reasonable studies that we've done well I can imagine a lot of ways some of these would actually bring difficult studies to form because most of them aren't even for data but I haven't actually I don't know, I don't exactly know what she's saying I'm appeased because that was the second one I wrote down was that she is a lot of the speech is really strongly predicated on the soundness of epidemiology which works really well for infectious diseases which works really poorly for many other things and even though ultimately I agree I'm troubled when we talk about things in terms of relative risk tell me something's increased something happening by 50% that sounds like a lot but if the chance was 1 in 10,000 to begin with it's not really so much that I'm going to adjust my lifestyle basically so I have some issues without the epidemiology because it's a social one so I would admit that it's going to be a lot of the same life that she's been wearing I mean, you know especially in a long wide range of things like HIV diseases I was skeptical but just like his metaphor in terms of advocating to overreach and I think as we said correlation is not causation but that doesn't mean it improves, right? it's a starting point when you I learned a little bit about the layers of TED the TEDx basically is like jerry and so everything that she says you can get into those studies and read yourself and analyze and to be on that stage you're going to over simplify and stage and you're not giving a PhD thesis where you're going to go and the methodology but we could all go look for that and maybe that's one of those other things what else do we need while we want to dive into some of those or some people want to study groups some of those and say because I agree with you I'll read things and I'll be like so they got this effect from that cause couldn't it have been this, this or this and yeah so the backwards of saying it could be multiple effects but this doesn't have an impact as well it just well it is but I mean since even she said that I think she assumed in the beginning that it's a problem for all kids or for all parents to get their kids out of it I don't think I don't think that's everyone's experience nor do I think it's everyone's parent and style to think it's their job to pour water on them and make sure that it's out pretty big problem doing that even if it was difficult when somebody makes a claim like that I always like to hear a little more a little more data yeah and I think similarly to that just how you know there's part of kids trying to rank hardwired which you want to take as well so there's that there's lots of pieces yeah and that every is kind of not the way that you know possibility but where could be creativity so how much of those behaviors that they're talking about are sort of innate and not driven by sleep is that a reasonable yes there is also how causal or how direct of a relationship again going back to the same thing more data about the and it's probably true within that research that if you help with the sleep issue that probably will help with things but anything that one is kind of a harder one to talk about I think that it is for yeah if you have anything to add or not it's okay if you don't I I think just she's I would agree with our limits that we all have we're all these this would be interesting to see some of the evidence behind that too but I think I can instinctually kind of understand the importance of having a certain amount of these and that's obviously important for our kids too that basic premises feels pretty sound sleep is powerful and a good baseline is important yeah for as much as I think there is some really good science behind it again having five kids to go to I mean I'd like to think that I'm not the only family where somehow on weekends and during the summer suddenly they're wide awake early in the morning early morning and that my kids didn't have any early sports practices or early jobs even if it's just during the summer I certainly know a lot of people who have I mean so I just seem very aware that there are just so many things that I feel like that ball's up in the air wouldn't it be much like in the summertime I think we shift with the light when it's light out in the morning we're more fast to wake up with the light instead of winter wake up at 6am is hard for anybody yeah so we can move on what do you the wheels what do you agree with and what she said generally agree with the problem that I want to finish up before we're done so my other problem is that now we shift the hours we have three therapies a week and your therapists don't have a Monday through Friday you know 8-5 schedule so it's extremely difficult and then you have to get the therapist whose specialty is what you're dealing with so now I'm taking those two or three days a week for a part or a whole class and now he's got to try to make that up so we're just spinning our wheels really so you really don't think that there's any flexibility with the therapist? no more because you've got therapists that some of them only work four days a week some of them only like he has cool therapy only for that on a certain day of the week this is not something that's really easy I mean it's taken 14 years to get a schedule but those schedules are based on the current school schedule too yes but you don't have therapists working I mean some get done at three some might get done at five some may get done at nine but they may get done at three because of the schools? no they have their own schedules they make their own schedules so it's based on what their hours are so it becomes a real issue for us you know do we want to keep taking him out in the afternoon so that we can bring him in early so he can be tutored we're spinning our wheels and I know I'm not the only special needs parent in the school who's probably going to have to deal with this just noting as a general category this has to be paid attention to and taken seriously yeah so on a positive side as far as changing hours in Montpelier where they don't have to bus as many kids they're all on a slightly earlier schedule where I've certainly noticed that a lot of places like North Branch Nature Center and things like that they're really accommodating dance classes and so forth they're accommodating an earlier release time so people in our district might be able to join in on some things that they haven't been able to or got pulled out of school early today I mean like the elementary schools if they were earlier yeah that it's hard to get him up on a bed and they're the one who gets himself up at 6.15 every single day prompting an issue whatsoever maybe the evidence is compelling as opposed to unequivocal would be yeah maybe something well and as a community conversation that kind of personal anecdotal information you're going to bump into people who feel you know in my house it works this way really you know at the school level community level we need to be looking at the amalgamation of everybody's experience we can't drive a process based on the outliers I know this is getting ahead of things because I know there is going to be surveys and what not but I think that survey definitely should include you know how much sleep do your kids get you know what are in the course of a week it would be nice to know whether there are 50% of the people say oh my kids all get 10 hours of sleep maybe we take a different approach to 5% say they get 10 hours of sleep I can see it though in my classroom I know but I mean they're not getting 10 hours of sleep I absolutely agree but I think to have the data because if we're going to go out and propose changes some local facts not just national facts behind it there's region we live in a dark cold place 6 months out of the year that's a lot different than living in California where your diurnal cycles are run by 70 degrees and sunny every day one of the studies that's on the CSU website is from Minnesota and we have Bennington which I just heard about tonight and it'll be interesting to go down and find out what's going on down there they looked at a study in here where they actually looked at the cycles in our body and the way they came up with that was the scientists slept in caves there was no difference in temperature no difference in light they were in caves and it's in our brain so it doesn't even make a difference it was really interesting reading how they find some of this research and the information comes from the studies that they did or the experiments they carried out just stopping to say it looks like you've done three already it's about where you should be at time incredible you're all it is what do we aspire to what does that really mean do we understand that here's how I interpret it maybe others can interpret it differently but it's are there concepts or ideas or arguments that we would like to pursue or put in place or act on I guess I guess I'll give you an example like where there's teens with districts with later start times get more sleep and it has these four or five really because I would interpret it differently if you're going to aspire to something I would say because the scientific evidence is compelling or unequivocal or the weight of the scientific evidence shows that this would be a good thing to do then the U32 school district wants to move forward and make this happen that's what I would think is going to come out of this something like the we believe the evidence we want to do something about it that's what we aspire to evidence overwhelmingly points to a best practice points to change I don't know that's just me if you want to do number three and argue with me that would be great yeah it says what parts of the text do you want to aspire to I think supporting all of the benefits of the research and aspiring to that change but also I think finding a way to help the community move through that is going to be a massive and needs to be a sophisticated public relations campaign to make this thing to sell this I really think it's important to look at the long-term benefits because I think in the short term it's going to be sticky and messy for people to figure that out with the long-term benefits I think having health care having health care happens recognizing different parts of your life that might be different than other times I think that's really working well because like you were saying but she said in the video how different you are as adults in your age in your age it doesn't mean that we're not part of the work of the person you know what I mean by letting them stay it doesn't have a relationship to what they do yeah they're bringing their sleep cycle shifts from 11 to early and then it shifts back as an adult too second consideration is the slide so that everybody shifts every day so elementary and high school are the same that's another strategy other school districts have adopted and then there's essentially what you were saying that Stephen had always sort of mentioned was the flip plus a reconfiguration of the school day taking advantage of possibly lengthening it and allowing it to be segmented or reorganized so that academics enriching activities sports everything would have a place during the school day and with the idea I can't speak for Stephen but my understanding or my interpretation is that this would allow students to otherwise not have access to some of these kinds of programs to be able to and it would also allow possibly the integration of certain outside school programs like whether working or mentorships and things like that for that to also tied in in the school day and is the technical center talking about a change at all because we're tied in with them we're tied in with them at this point no but that's a great thing to I don't know not everybody just goes there for the whole day they go part of the day but it's something you have to look at as far as how would that connect I guess it's probably a career center now yeah I would love to know more if there is indeed another visa that have changed because it's great to hear 10 talks that are happening wherever in our but to hear about Vermont stories on how it's working and it a huge issue like you said with the career center with playing sports with other local teams we're the only ones that are going later you got kids in the same school you've got well they miss school anyway you need to I mean every school that has changed or started we're doing now which is great to talk to them to find out how did you work around that that's you know I'm not saying that they might not be happy that they did it but how did you make it happen you know what it's considered it might be something that we're not even thinking of yet we should people are excited by office I know I got to keep staples of business so what does this mean as we explore changing the school start time what does this mean it's an awkward question so I think this means that we agree that we should change the school start time that would probably be best for the kids if we did what is the definition of this if you can unfortunate flipside meaning that it might mean more sacrifices again depending on what their particular work situation is I guess to me what does this mean as we explore changing the school start time it really goes down to do we agree on the principle you know the foundation that it's worth working toward a change more sleep would be better yes we can't guarantee that every kid is going to get more sleep every family is going to allow their kid to still be in bed that extra hour but we can create the conditions where it's more likely we move the expectation that they have to do something when they have to do some art they're they're fat markers the second one is what information do folks need to have this to me is the I guess I'd like to learn from the districts that already do it what their experience has been and what their hiccups have been personally I'm open to hearing that anybody else in New England right, presumably teenagers are similar so part of that packet you have part of that packet you have papers there's one chunk that probably oh I can tell you guys how to find it online the after the bell one this one so this packet is available from schoolstartlater.net we have some examples of communities who've done the changes in Virginia there's ability there but again that's stuff we need to put on the website I think so this is information we need what information the community people who aren't here what information do they need I'm really curious to see if that issue that was the big deal a while ago still is meaning the the older kids are really watching the younger kids it really depends on the age difference I mean mine are two and a half years apart and my son's not watching my daughter he's doing his own thing and she's thinking that she needs to cut her head off so I think that information has two parts do we need to convince them that this is a good thing to do and do we need to then talk about logistics of how we can actually can it happen in a way that's reasonable so do community members disagree with this principle right in what what information do they need to to feel confident that this is the right thing to do I'm also curious about how it interacts with our neighboring schools because we don't exist in isolation with regard to sports that's one of the one that I'm thinking of like if we go later and have a game at Harwood does that mean our team has to leave before the school day actually ended we do that now we loved when we got to leave early to go to a competition or something like that but getting to school later and then still leaving at one or two to go to north country or whatever but there's a short day when Kieran was playing Laplace they had club teams and what they would do is they'd play on Saturdays they'd have like a jamboree where two or three teams would show up and they'd play each other so you didn't have to have games during the week get them all on Saturday which is a way of dealing with that if there's a will there's a way the other team that you're going to play because yeah statewide you can take teams all over the place and as it is right now there are definitely things like I know with the Montpelier district that a lot of things happen at 3.30 and our kids can't get to know we end at 3.30 exactly despite the early start you're talking about for high school high school or grammar school? there's lots of gymnastics classes and dance classes and music classes that our elementary kids can't participate in because we wouldn't be able to get in so I think one of the things that we would want to information on is what are the obstacles that community members say to this you know just to deal with that we have to vocational school very vocational school controls everything because they have to we have to basically align our calendar to that you know it's not like everyone can go the wrong way it has to have to why I don't know the structural it's a statutory issue and I think Bill would be able to tell you that we have to align our calendar with the very standard is there a school board in charge of them they will liaison with them the U32 board will liaison with them but they're separate entity too but it's also tell us just about the aligning our calendar with the VOTEC so we have to by state statutes align our 175 days in common between the five the five supervisors that are in line with now called the Central Hermione Career Technical Center but everyone still thinks it is very tech does that mean they're taking the lead on that or just a party for it what happens is the five superintendents get together in February and we all we used to and we just all said okay this is like until we get doing some good work out in the community because we all want to change it we're not sure how to get the grounds for community support to change the calendar there isn't any of us that like it's just how do we make it happen across five supervisors it's basically all Washington County so does the Berry Book Center have a veto? No it's really how we work as a five superintendents we have a good agreement that this is there's no one that says anyone does have a veto all it says is in statute you must have a comment okay so we want to know what the school day start or those classes start I want to say like nine but I'm not sure and I'd have to go research it so right now kids come here and then soon after like about 815 about 815 820 right after TA they jump on the bus to Berry Town so I've got to say so we want to know details but we can get that details at the end kids are clearly stakeholder yeah and the way that this structure would be a really great thing like I'm thinking research studies class you know you guys are debating things like just the structure of this too would be great kids to be involved in on their own okay so a different best schedule possible child care needs kid voices the after school activity after school and extracurriculars it's interesting if you think about schools across the state we're all so different there's no continuity no and I went to a school where the same as you we rode high schoolers and elementary all on the same bus but our elementary kids got to school first just the way it was designed right and then our our other kids got bused they started later but they got out earlier it was really weird but they left early for sports they just did the last period of the day was designed in a way the kids can make that up like an art class that was like open and you could do it at a different time like a study hall time or study halls were at the end of the day designed in a way that that's just the way I went to school and kids had to leave an hour early because they just we bust everywhere you know we were way up in the northeast kingdom and so it can be done and that's how it grew up we left we always for sports events had to leave school early because we looked way up north too and had to bus far and the sports bus I mean even here today the sports bus before the end of school they do okay they have to wonder about the new PIs right there's this new idea of performance indicators which means that a kid can work on a performance indicator for half a year and have it done or can work beyond that because it takes them longer to get there if that is really the design we're working towards like does it matter if the kid misses out for a few soccer games here and there because they're working at their own pace anyway on a PI there's some PI that can be assigned to an activity I mean I think that's true and you know education has changed whatever the bill has been done sort of an internal reflection in terms of how education is being delivered you know my bias is that there's no way for them to get actual credit right now but you get the sort of community based learning feels good but it's not a science it's not a business course it doesn't really hit any of those students so the idea for this really is that it allows for more flexibility and that's supposedly the idea behind performance indicators that kids will have more flexibility to learn in different ways so if it means playing sports for one semester and then buckling down the next semester or however the give and take happens it's supposed to be flexible who knows you get key credit yeah I'm taking a semester off to do a 9-3 class and they let me do that because I know I'm getting physical so you've got that piece which was not possible until pretty recently right and I think it will slowly be able to change I'm just curious if you have thoughts about this like are you feeling positive about possibility of it what do you think do you think it would be a good idea to start later I feel like it would but it would also contradict with like it would like take away from the people who enjoy sports it would make it so that it would be getting out later which means in the winter skiing or running in the dark it wouldn't be able to do that so in addition to this we need to get rid of the whole daylights you didn't want to bring in any politics I've got one I want to just add because I think it's kind of on a different yeah I think it's going to mean there will be a major issue for our communities to grapple with in I'm kind of coming to this having worked on the Act 46 committee there's so much going on right now I mean Act 46 is probably the biggest one but it feels like our schools and our communities are stressed with change and initiatives and I'm not saying we shouldn't address this because it's really important but it's definitely a consideration of the capacity to deal with another potentially major shift when we're already dealing with so much I also think it's important and I'll just put this out it probably doesn't go anywhere on here but when you get to the point of formulating some sort of survey I think it should be a have to for the staff like I think the staff should have to participate whether it's done in a staff meeting just feelings on what they see in kids I think we want I think it's really important for the staff and the students I think it should be put into somewhere in their day where they do real online survey because I haven't been the one dying to because not many people you know when you go to a survey and you're like oh I got five million things and I'm not going to worry about that and then there's a certain voice that tends to come out when it's only a very small school so just making sure that I'd also be really interested to see and maybe it's in the research I didn't go through everything but some of this science over time like decades time I don't know how much of it exists but I don't worry you know when I was in high school I started at 730 I just I don't remember this even being an issue coming up at all that's not that bad but I'm really curious what are the other factors, what else has changed technology, air culture and so much have shifted over time so I'd be really interested to see how science more temporally changed it so I have that probably a question just down here I feel like some of these are probably yeah that may well be I'd also be it's like the application of research to real life at what point do you take the research and do something about it well and also this idea of like one argument is oh teens we should be toughening them up to get them ready for the real world there is so much of that that goes on in the world and it's not right they don't need to be toughened up they're you know it's like just listen to them and let them have a voice and you know it's like we're not supposed to do this imagine telling that to pregnant women before they have kids we're going to make you get up early toughen you up because you have a baby there you go I know every two hours you've got about a minute I'm going to ask you guys to talk about you did go off script which is fine so what's your summary of what you're going to have up here I kind of layered them just because I was running out of time and I'm going to let the other three groups go first and we'll see what we can bring up discussion and then you can add in so actually perfect thank you for sharing we do have a minute left time and effort it's something that didn't get captured hmm we're going to do a little it's about a three minute summary from each table just to kind of get an idea of what the conversation was three to five actually I say three to five minutes we've got enough time for that and then we'll end with next steps and some what we call exit tickets here just to get some ideas of what we can do better every time we try to do one of these we shall say hey what work for you what can we do better and what was your takeaway from tonight's meeting so I don't know if anyone's appoint someone to talk from their table I'm going to start over here with this table and maybe someone I'm going to hand you the mic so we can record alright yeah maybe our table I think it's safe to say that our table on the whole was very persuaded that the evidence is compelling and argues very strongly for change in terms of and I forget what the first question was what do we assumptions what does this even mean what does it mean so that was the first thing that it means we need to identify the logistical challenges and possible solutions we will need a massive and sophisticated public communication campaign and that the the dissatisfaction of some unknown number of people is probably unavoidable whether we make a change or talk about change and then do nothing we're going to dissatisfy somebody the second question what information do we need preferably case studies of where and how a change like this was successful and more specifics about outcomes and benefits specifically sports and extracurricular timing travel implications etc possible solutions to child care problems how will this change affect people's lives and how do they perceive that it will change their lives not necessarily the same all the time we thought that we really need student voice in this process what do they think is this possible do they feel like it's important and then what is the effect on society as a whole more of a longitudinal you know what are the benefits for society more generally and then last what questions do we have what questions do we have what questions do we still have can the TED talk be linked to a public survey what is the what target time change are we talking about is it a half hour is it an hour do we know if there are scientists or advocacy groups who are arguing the other side of this question because if we start talking about a change and there are people who oppose it they will find any scientists and advocacy groups that are making those arguments so we should anticipate that and then what are the budgetary effects teacher contract busing facilities operation etc what were the sticking points last time around picking oh yeah why have we looked at this issue and not succeeded in making a change you know what exactly were the issues that stopped it from moving forward thank you I hand this over to this group so here's our post-it because it's like the coolest office supply ever and we said a lot of the same things we agree we do agree that more sleep is better and potentially changing the expectation of when a school day starts for children there's at least the potential to get more sleep the information is a lot of the same that's in bolts like what are the community needs what are obstacles community members see particularly people who are not in this room and I will put my chair that is the challenge of any of these committee things as volunteers is asking and asking and then getting people to come out it's a challenge so I think you all for coming we want to know how it would interact with neighboring schools and school districts the details about integrating with the veterinary career center which is our vocational program and the surrounding communities what other logistics not some bolts have to move around like community connections, bus options the day length for the teacher and the questions some good questions came up about like potentially is there any better way to advertise our next forum is there any way to potentially have it at a different location so we all cared very much about getting more people at the next meeting and more people who there seems to be a lot of consensus in the room, people who don't necessarily agree and can bring up points that we may not have thought of great thank you back here to this table so we had a lot of the same points one of the logistics that was brought up that I had never considered was the sort of multiplier impact of daylight savings time and shorter days meaning that now sports teams are running at night basically so it was definitely brought up that we want to get student input we also want to get staff and faculty input in terms of what what this change would mean and what that means to the stakeholders questions about how the PIs progress indicators and the sort of more flexible education pathways play into what some of these changing days might look like there are a bunch of questions around sort of the science and the sourcing of the science behind this I think we all felt pretty comfortable that this woman is a sleep researcher but she spoke in some sort of generalities that a few of the folks at the table were I wouldn't say uncomfortable with but would like to see a little more specific information about the science specifically science for the younger kids as well she was talking really about the teenagers but what does it look like for younger students and are there benefits or negatives to changing or inverting or whatever the start times one of the questions that the group had is what are we talking about here inverting start times unifying moving them by a half hour which I think that's one of the questions that we're exploring and info on shared busing is there data about whether shared busing positively impacts student outcomes and student experiences and then questions want to make sure that we don't negatively impact any particular group of students whether it be less advantage students or folks who have special needs or just make sure that anything that we're talking about as a group has those stakeholders that I miss anything anything that we should have sounds like a good wrap without even looking at it so then to this table over here thanks Bill our table went a little bit rogue because not everyone can attend the next meeting so we wanted to make sure that they had an opportunity to register other concerns and thoughts that might not have fit immediately in the context of the questions but all the same I think we we were heading in not surprisingly in very much the same direction I think there are even among five people there are different views or different emphases in our views on you know as to the science I think generally we're convinced but there was a request to show the data I mean it's one thing for someone even someone highly qualified and credentialed to say the evidence shows that blah blah blah but let's see it then fair request the other thing that is that became very clear is that the details of this are really going to matter a lot so and in terms of scheduling in terms of how the day might turn out to be structured in terms of everything it's a serious undertaking that we're entering into if we continue which I hope we do on this track in terms of other information besides the data just to second what I think was said somewhere before examples other examples of where this happened specifically in Vermont if possible case study of say Vermont schools that have changed their start and stop times and how they did it and how it went questions that we still have they're a whole ton and feel free to read them the handwriting on the wall and this is where we kind of let it all hang out and just had a burst of creative thinking and worrying in terms of how this might all play out so anyway thank you Scott so tonight was the beginning of a conversation and I'm going to turn this over to Karen for closing but I just want to go back over the next steps one thing I wanted to show you that I think many of you may have seen but if you haven't on the Washington Central website there's a page that goes off the top menu bar under resources that shows the school start time and some of you were asking for research and links if you go over here to the school start time quick links we've tried to put a lot up here about the studies where we've been looking at some work from I mean I think it's start school later.org or .net is the group we've been getting research from make sure I have the name right so I see not from Karen I saw it around here somewhere on that table yeah and so there's a lot of links like this you may see these two get flipped but it's the right page down below you'll see minutes of tonight's meetings and previous meetings any postings that we've had so please use that if you have any questions you can email myself or Karen I'll be glad to get in but this is really the beginning of a conversation and the idea is that even through this spring it's the continuing of a conversation gathering information I really agree with Matthew it's a piece that this group came up with there's going to be a public campaign here and I liked what this table said about how do we get other folks that are questioning this it's going to help us be stronger so please my big ask for next time and I heard some other members of the committee saying this bring a friend or two and I really appreciated the student voice I'm glad two students showed up tonight one of the things that the community had asked about that and I said that's something that I can go get through the school at the school time too doesn't mean they can't be here so if you want to bring kids bring them this is why I don't one question about these meetings these meetings tend to happen in the evening on these days so I don't know just if you want to get more people you really might want to all have a seven o'clock a.m. meeting for those that work later in the day those are some great ideas there's a feedback sheet it's a three to one sheet it's like what's your what happened for you tonight so we're asking for three phrases or bullet points we're asking for three phrases or bullet points we're asking also what are two things that really work for you and what's one thing you'd want changed and if you want to give us more than one thing you want to change that's fine it's just a pattern of an exit ticket that I developed we really want that information we want to make this better we really believe in bringing more people and on this conversation I heard someone talk about locations more varied locations so those are all good things yeah I mean maybe shell meanty school has been a part of the program Callie do you have I just uh I think that if you're seriously thinking about making change people need to know you're seriously thinking about making change because forums happen a lot and everybody who kind of jump on a form and then feel like oh boy it's not going anywhere if we're really thinking this is going somewhere and we need to tell people this is really going somewhere if you really want to be a part of that conversation and how it affects you and your family and you need to get here making it kind of a serious thing because I brought it up you know at our school and there were people who were kind of like music's going to go anywhere so if it's really going to go somewhere you know letting people know Allison it's actually an excellent question what is the specific process whereby we would do this how would who would vote on this in what how would this happen so the Washington my understanding from where the charge is is that we need a board member to chime in but transportation's a responsibility of the supervisory union and we coordinate our transportation so I would see it as the supervisory union board would be the one that would have the last so the school board members who have voting voting on the supervisory union board okay they're 18 of them and people need that information it's on the website they'd be glad to get a 10A of you and let you know what that is but I believe it's going to be the assumption by myself but that's where I see it I just want to point out for those that don't know my understanding is that the committee is charged to report out to the SU board in June the findings of these forms and discussions and any recommendations that there are at that point so then I believe the SU board would take a decide whether to give the committee a new charge or take another step that's good I'm just curious about that so this isn't really a transportation issue this is student health so it sounds like it's a little more tail wagging the dog if you're putting it in the context of transportation it doesn't transportation follow from the decision that's made it is but the decision this is where we could get into a long discussion about governance in Vermont so I'm not really sure for my part you know is it a local board decision is it the SU board decision I'm not sure and I think it's a I think that's where I'm going into the transportation piece because of that piece of it but I think these boards have also with their alternative governance have said we're going to work together on issues and I don't think it would be driven by transportation I think it would be driven by what's best for kids and whether it makes sense and transportation would follow just because there's some quirks in law that you use a vehicle to get greater good and that it may be this here but it's just more global and it's what's best for kids not what's best for the bus company yeah I didn't want to get that the bus company with the way our contract's written they'll move to where we want them to yeah that's Robin did you have something to add to that I said quickly in this table transportation was sort of my entry point into this broader discussion but this broader discussion would a change would obviously ripple out to transportation but this broader discussion really stands on its own right if the school boards or school board as a whole collectively decides that this is a change that would affect student outcomes for the positive and would be positive for our communities then obviously then busing would change but it's not being driven by busing in any way I know this table is asking for an info request on where is the data this is an amazing book that just came out called Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker and this is where the data is incredible you can see all of the studies, the experiments they did but it's written in a way that you can't put it down like it's a really good so you lose sleep it's a great book and loved it it has all of the data you're looking for presented in a fascinating way and it also talks about how the brain changes over our lives and how our sleep needs change over our lives so those of you at that table were wondering about elementary school versus adolescents as we age what happens to the brain and how does that affect sleep or how does sleep affect our brain development fascinating we're looking forward to but the data that I specifically would like is schools in Vermont that have done this just because I do feel having Vermont information is important but I guess why why? because there's Vermont versus New Hampshire versus Maine versus New York State we're a region and it's different to me it makes a difference that it's something that's happening in our area I mean I would not listen to or be interested in stuff that happens in New England and all but I think stuff that happens out in Los Angeles is different than what happens here in Vermont not that kids aren't the same but I mean our school systems are different the opportunities that we have are different whether or not you have places that you can run to 24 hours a day are different but there are so many regions in our country that are similar to us I can think of small towns in Wisconsin, Minnesota similar climate similar daylight similar type things so I just feel like we're raising citizens of the world and the whole country and if we are biopic and only care about that I don't know that we're going to have as much data to pull from but if we wanted to say kids who have similar community size community daylight hours I mean someone mentioned I think you know that would give you a little bit broader than for the second least popular state in the country and things sometimes work differently here but even the time change stuff not everywhere in the United States do they change the clocks you know my dad in Indiana it works differently there their school years are also different where my dad is schools start beginning of August and then the end of May and there's just a lot of differences they have one week off in March of February and April there are just so many differences so that's why when I say Vermont I know there's a lot of things that it's the same playing field right well and in Vermont though those breaks are not always like you said the differences around the country so we can we I think they're both need for both I agree with what Larry said so we'll look for both okay so there are some exit tickets we appreciate you that thank you very much for coming tonight we hope to see you bring a friend back on April