 Hey folks, welcome to the podcast today. I had a friend of mine in called Jonathan Tobin who is a venture capital Guy Working in biotech. So we had a really cool chat. We looked at what is biotech? We talked about invention science biology drugs Chemistry all of that cool stuff. We looked a little bit about How the industry's funded what it takes to get drugs to market? It's a really really cool chat and I hope you enjoy it Hey, it's Lewis. Welcome to the podcast Enjoy conversations anytime anywhere and We are live How you doing? Hey, Lewis. Yeah, good. Good. How you doing good? Thanks for coming in. Yeah. Thank you for having me That's right. Very excited. So I feel like we have to talk about CrossFit first as we met sweating next to each other Indeed in some hard some hard Wads somewhere How long have you been doing it for? I think I started about a year and a half ago I've been doing cycling since I was about 19 and It sort of developed pretty decent quads, but the rest of my body was shriveled and skinny So I thought I needed this or I became middle-aged to redress that balance. So like why did you do CrossFit? I think it's it's varied Seemed like a kind of new challenge. I was into weightlifting sort of earlier on in my life and You know for 19. Yeah, and and also after I'd had two then three children It was something that you could do three children didn't take your whole weekend And that's true. It's true. No the cycling because I've done a bit of cycling you out for like what? Two three hours, but then you get back and you spend two or three hours on the couch and then Eating so in actual fact, you're a waste of space for the whole day You could be doing golf golf's a good four five hour It's true for the whole Cycling's the sort of new golf the aerobic golf. Yeah, but you've got to get a good few hours and otherwise I think with CrossFit there. It's like 20 minutes and you're like dribbling on the floor. Yeah Yeah, you can just do and you don't have to spend five thousand pounds on a bike No That is true. That is true So you are in biotech Yep, I'm in biotech venture capital, which is a fairly niche sector in Europe particularly What is biotech? biotech is I mean tech biotechnology is using living organisms to Basically to make things but but it's now evolved into what I do Which is creating new drugs based on new forms new discoveries in biology nice and Biotech over the last 40 years now 50 years has really transformed medicine So the in what way so the first biotech company was Genentech Which which started in the 70s and they Basically figured out a way of making insulin using Bacteria which you can grow in the lab, you know in a fermenter instead of taking it from animals like pigs and that really paved the way for totally transforming the way a lot of medicines were made and It created a whole breed of entrepreneurs biotech entrepreneurs, so Scientists biochemists molecular biologists who were also interested in business and I think I found myself in that category Having grown up, you know with business in my family, but with a strong interest in science Okay, so biotech is like a perfect way to combine those two interests Yeah, and so before the first biotech company was it all government universities No, I mean the the pharmaceutical industry is is very old You know a lot of the companies like Merck and Bayer and welcome go back You know hundreds of years a lot of the first pharma companies actually made chemicals like dyes You know industrial chemicals and then realized that they could use those skills in chemistry to make things like You know aspirin or penicillin And then the biotech industry really Spawned out of people who were thinking differently about using biology to create new medicines Fine, and then so how is how is it different from tech the tech sector? Yeah, it's a great question. I think there are there are quite a few differences actually and you know Historically people that did my job who invested in startups Invested in both biotech and tech and now there's been a big separation of those Because they're quite different business models so Biotech is generally biotech founders are generally boffins Professors coming out of so they're in a university. Yeah done some research. They've come up a lot of the time That's the case and they're not necessarily People who have the best business skills. Yeah And so they're not the ideal founders of companies They have the scientific foundation, but not the business foundation And so you often get a scientist who will team up with somebody more entrepreneurial And in often often these days. That's actually the investor who teams up with the scientist So and so where do they meet so the investors are what's circling around the universities trying to sniff out? Yeah, yeah, and that's a large part of my job is doing that basically and finding those ideas Yeah, and and then Identifying what we think could be a great a great drug in five years You know with a bit of work and then bringing in professional management with the scientists and we've done that successfully quite a few times But in tech, you know, you tend to have a founder entrepreneur who has an idea It's relatively cheap to get to a prototype quite quickly. Yeah, and so the funding model is quite different There's a lot more angel or sweat equity that goes into creating the first iteration and the VCs get involved Once there's already something Tangible even revenue case or something. Yeah, whereas biotech is so expensive to make a drug You might need 50 million dollars just to get to the point where you're testing it in people Instead of mice. So how come so so what's the name? Well, I guess how do they invent it? How do they test it and Where's all where does the cost come? Yeah, I guess, you know, you're dealing with hugely complex systems biology is amazingly complicated And that's why I think it's so fascinating but you're trying to identify a specific point of leverage in a cell or in a system Which is perturbed in a particular disease setting and then identify a molecule or drug that can Shift how that how that target is operating and and change the course of somebody's disease or even cure it And and that is extremely complicated and then you need to do do tests in animals You have to make sure it's safe because you're ultimately going to be putting the thing into humans And then human trials are really expensive. Right, right Um, I'm very time consuming and then there's the whole regulatory side, which is varies from country to country. I guess and crazy So what what are the hot areas at the moment? Any particular kind of sweet spots? Yeah trying to make our lives longer Yeah, long longevity is an interesting nano probes in our body fighting of all our disease and Yeah, so I think there are two areas where typically over the last 10 years venture capitalists have Made their best returns and therefore continue to be the sort of the bulk of the deal flow And that's in cancer oncology and rare diseases or genetic diseases. Right, right And the reasons for that I think are that those two areas Go quite well with how we do science So our reductionist approach to science where you take a cell and you tinker with one thing at a time It's sort of like opening a car bonnet and taking one piece out the engine and seeing what happens and Both cancer is a disease where cells divide uncontrollably So if you can stop them dividing and if you can kill the cells, then you cure the disease effectively And in the last few years people have realized that you can harness the body's immune system to attack the tumor And that's been a massively Exciting area Is that developed? Is that developing quickly? It's developing extremely quickly. I mean quicker than people know what to do with it because People are now working on the third fourth fifth iteration of drugs And at the same time still testing the first and second iteration in humans But then at the moment you still people have cancer they they do the chemo stuff, right? Yeah, so these are these new drugs you're talking about like available Yeah, some some of them are and most of the time now People are using combination therapy and that makes things even more difficult because rather than testing one thing at a time You're testing lots of things Um and and the other area. I think that that is massively Hot is is rare diseases and the reason for that is that you know, if you have an inherited disease There's usually one gene that has gone wrong That you've been you've inherited that from your parents and therefore you can Specifically identify the cause of the disease So it's very simple and you can use gene therapy to put it back in or now gene editing to edit your genome So we've got that crisper. Yeah nine or whatever it's. Yeah, that was in the news recently with the old The designer babies from china. It's crazy. It says basically just cut and paste, right? Yeah, take something out and people are extremely scared about the potential ramifications for that you could do all sorts of things with I mean in that case, they've made some children who will be resistant to hiv Oh, yeah in china. Was that yeah? Yeah, they were twins that were born in November, but the doctor did it illegally Yeah, exactly. Yeah I mean editing human embryos past, you know, a very very early stage of development is is unethical But you know a definition of that or is that just a been said? Yeah, yeah Exactly. Yeah But science is moving so quickly and you can't you know, every scientific discovery has an equal and opposite You know Poor, you know, unethical use, you know, but biological weapons are effectively made with biotechnology. Yeah. Yeah Um, you know gm crops, you know controversial in the news but could solve you know human kinds food shortage and And so but is this this is inevitable. They're right. I mean if you can If you can edit your embryo and make your kids resistant to disease Run faster smarter, you know, if other people are doing it You're gonna end up wanting to do it yourself. Is this just an is this inevitable? Or do you think actually, you know, there might be some I think I think what what what will happen is that people will realize that there are quite a lot of risks associated with rummaging around in the primordial soup of an embryo's genome and you know It happened what dolly the sheep was the first animal that was cloned and and I think when was that in the That was in the 90s. I think it was a long time ago But the the the same thing will happen with with gene editing It's I think there will be especially with when you're editing at the embryo level there will be Quite a lot of side effects that you just can't predict at the moment people are pursuing gene editing for Particular cell types in the body. So you're delivering humans or yeah So you're delivering it to the eye to correct for example an inherited form of blindness Or you're delivering it to the liver for You know liver disease for example You're not editing an embryo so that it has a higher IQ or whatever Which wouldn't be possible at the moment, but in the future when we understand how these things work, you know I'm sure anything will be possible Yeah, and so with tech and biotech Going so quick how how can you as an investor predict what's going to happen in the next Well six months or three years or yeah time arising you tend to I think that's a great question And it's something that people People often talk about what's hot right now, but as an investor you really need to As um ronal Cohen said look at where the second bounce of the ball is going to be did you yeah I read that before I started my business. Yeah, because he went to school with my dad Randomly, well, they both from Egypt. Yeah, and then they came to the UK and they went to school together And he ended up doing a lot better than my dad Yeah, it was actually the first book I read on venture capital I think I must have been an undergrad or something. He's like the founding father of Private equity in Europe. Yeah. Yeah, but but that point about timing really struck a chord because It's very very difficult and uncomfortable to write a check in something which doesn't feel Hot at the moment. It's always easier to follow the crowd follow the current trend Um, but the question is where are things going to go to and it's all about the time frame So if you'd invested in gene therapy 10 years ago Yeah, you would have been slightly too early if you'd invested in gene therapy three or four years ago You'd make 10 times your money now Three years ago. So ready. So the window of opportunity can be very small And it's not necessarily best to be first because when you're first in a new area of technology There are always, you know, the old hype cycle where you have the the peak and then the trough of despair when people realize that there are You know problems Associated that you hadn't foreseen and then people figure out how to solve those problems and And the thing actually works, but often the people who are first in Uh, don't necessarily do the best. So figuring out exactly when to get into an area Not too early. Not too late Is is a real skill and quite frankly, there's a lot of luck involved And also I guess who you get in with, right? because presumably You know the science Teams and different unis are also researching the same stuff. There's a little bit of a race to Yeah, there's always Anything that that you're working on if it's interesting you can be guaranteed There are three people other people working on that you know about and another five that you don't know about and you know Capital for innovation is quite abundant at the moment Even in europe. Yeah, which was typically a bit more of a desert for for cash So what has it changed recently? it's changed it The the amount of capital available in europe has increased quite significantly over the last three years It's it's a question about whether the Quality and quantity of deal flow justifies the quantum of capital But one of the things with With biotech is that a lot of the research and the fundamental Innovations are funded by government or public sources And that is fairly steady level of funding and the the discoveries that come out of that are somewhat serendipitous that they're not They don't come at regular intervals And so what you find is because the private funding environment goes in boons and busts because biotech is very volatile And and the economy in general is volatile That you might have a point in which there's a surplus of capital But a deficit of ideas but because funds have cash and they need to deploy the cash It met you may get lower quality ideas getting Too much funding and vice versa. So what are the kind of time frames you you raise you raise a fund Then do you have a certain you have about three years or five years to Invest the money or how does it depends on the structure of the firm? Most venture capital firms are set up as 10 year funds And so that means you have 10 years to invest all the money and return All of it and more to your within the 10 years investors It depends on the structure, but 10 or 12 years sometimes 15 years Then you have what are called evergreen funds where you're constantly investing and then you return that cash Into the fund and then reinvest it. I see fine. And then they're also growingly corporate venture capital firms where the large In most cases pharmaceutical companies have their own VC fund in-house has that been a recent development It's been something that's growing quite a bit and it reflects a trend in the industry where big companies are getting worse and worse at inventing new stuff And it's cultural right if you're in a huge organization, it's very difficult to Have that culture of invention and innovation. Why do you think that is? I mean it's it's it's a Probably a longer discussion, but I guess it's to do with hierarchy and organizational structure and Reporting and politics. I guess if you've got a company with a hundred thousand people It's quite difficult to let people go off on their own flight of fancy Maybe but then you have You know you have or apple when steve jobs is that? Yeah? Yeah innovative? No, it happens on seem to be quite innovative It does happen. So there are companies like gen and tech where that happens they but they're rare And I think it's pretty amazing when you get a company that has the scale and resources Of a huge organization, but the culture of a small organization. Yeah. Yeah, and that will come that comes from the top Right. Yeah, and you find that those companies are hugely productive In terms of the number of new drugs that they that they invent and bring to market Yeah, and that's driven. Well, and are you finding though that to the leaders of these companies are business people rather than Scientists or inventors or actually they tend to be people with phd's or mds who Have spent some time doing research and so have a deep understanding of the science And can communicate that because a lot of our business is about telling stories and A lot of you know the people who are good at pitching who are good at selling ideas Not just in biotech, but I guess generally. Oh, yeah, they're telling a story that strikes a chord And convinces people Hooks their attention. Absolutely. Absolutely. We actually did some storytelling training on friday We had a lady that came in who specializes in storytelling in business And she did the day training with us because I completely agree. It's all about, you know, you buy into someone's story Yeah, and and you start feeling a real affinity and you go along on that journey with them. I know it's completely Yeah, it's really funny. I was reading. I've been reading my four-year-old george's marvellous medicine I rolled dull the last few nights And it it's amazing actually because obviously it's a children's book and the story is a little weird but I think he was probably on drugs when he was writing it probably was But it you know the the gist of it is is somewhat similar to to what By how biotech companies invent new drugs you sort of mix up a recipe and then test it and then tweak it and test it and But the way that that the story is told Is obviously very very fascinating. Yeah. Yeah And and so it's all about how you tell the story. So it's not enough just to have some great data You need to tell the story of that. What does it mean? And yeah, yeah So then okay, so then the best leaders of these companies say science backgrounds, but then also I guess into business Yeah, and I think it you know going back to our crossfit Discussion it's somewhat similar you there's no point being amazing at the science But terrible at presenting the story or understanding the business Because you know, it's a bit like having a 400 kilo squat, but not being able to run a mile Yeah, yeah So you have to be quite good at everything and that's one of the things that attracted me about Going into biotech venture capital being that jack of all trades kind of thing I remember very clearly when I was working in the lab I was probably about 24 or 25 And I showed my CV to the careers advisor About you know for jobs going into science and she looked at my CV and said Oh, your CV is fine, but it it sounds like you're too rounded a person You've got all this stuff about business sports, you know, extracurricular things She said just get rid of all that get rid of all that and you know Concentrate on the fact that you're just a hardcore nerd And I sort of thought you know that that's interesting You're sort of asking me to erase half of my personality and skill set, which I actually value quite a bit So did you think of yourself then as a As a what a scientist? Do you know you wanted to go into business? Yeah, I was always interested in the business applications of science right and I think It's been the last 20 years or so that the Kind of cottage industry of biotech has really taken off and because there's been this shift from Pharmaceutical companies doing invention in-house to external Externalizing research and development. That's really meant that the biotech industry has taken off Yeah, because the pharma company there's an ecosystem now the pharma companies buy That innovation from the small biotechs They're a lot They're a lot of So they're a lot more small biotechs now. Oh, yeah, there's thousands Even how does it work? So you touch on a little bit say a scientist in the uni comes up with an idea invent something You find some fun or she finds some funding And then you get in at that stage are you the funding that they find or They've got it going a bit. They've got some data. They've got a bit of a story to tell Yeah, we I like to get in quite early And there's a few reasons for that Partly because if you get in early, then valuations are lower You're taking more risk, but you can have a higher ownership of the company partly because you have a lot more influence and Guidance in how the science develops if you get in at the beginning when the thing is embryonic Yeah, but there are also cases where you want to get in once the thing's been derisked And so if something's already been tested in humans and you've seen that it, you know, there's a there's a chance that it will work Then that's that's later stage investing And is that so in terms of managing your risk and making money from these these things? So to manage your risk a bit you come in a little bit later once some trials have done Yeah And what what a lot of investors do including our firm is that you have a bit of both. So you have a portfolio So our portfolio is very focused only on the biotech sector and that's why our investors Invest in us because we're specialists in that But we try and hedge the risk somewhat by having some very early stage almost science projects Which could you know swing of the bat? So if they work, you know, it'll be a home run If if they don't work then, you know, you miss the ball and you're out kind of thing, but you try and Do what they call the killer experiments early so that you're Sequentially discharging risk Yeah And and asking a question and if it's yes, then you move on to the next question And then the next question and it gets sequentially more expensive, but you get more confidence that Okay, there you're things working. Yeah, and then you raise more money at a higher valuation and so on Um And so we have a Mix of those projects and then much later stage projects where you've got the thing that's already being tested in You know, what's called phase two or phase three trials in humans And then we have companies that have one project where it's what's called a single asset So you're making one drug or something. Yeah. Yeah And if that thing works, then, you know, you'll be successful if it doesn't it fails And then others where you have An individual company has a pipeline of assets. It has lots of different projects or it has a platform technology so for example a way of making a drug that You know last longer in the body So you only have to have an injection once a month instead of once a week kind of thing and then you can apply that to lots of different drugs and You know, those are different business models If you have a platform technology, you have more of a business You can you can sell individual assets. You can float the company There's more options for what you can do. Yeah. And so we fit the business model to What makes sense for the science basically fine and also the the management, you know So if you have a company that's just a science project, then Maybe you don't need a ceo that has a business background Maybe it's maybe you don't even need a ceo. It's just a scientist. Yeah. Yeah But if you have a More complex organization, then you need a more sophisticated management team and are they are they looking to you just for cash Or also expertise because you mentioned, you know, having some influence on the science But presumably these scientists are quite Protective over there over their research and their stuff. Do they want your help and guidance or just give me the cash and Check me checking every month. Yeah So I think the earlier you get involved in the company the more influence you have and we always I always take a seat on the company's board of directors We're quite involved in the strategy So not necessarily designing individual experiments because you're trusting the the scientific team that you hire That they'd be much better than that than yeah But we're involved with the strategy What direction to take the science in often There's what's called an innovators dilemma where you have an invention and you could take it down all sorts of routes And the scientist always wants to try everything because it's interesting But you've got limited funding And doing a bit of everything doesn't really create much value So you have to be strategic about where you focus your effort and and cash And then I'm quite involved in hiring very involved in Building the team so finding, you know, the chief scientist the CEO the chief business officer finding independent experts that can guide the company And those people that you bring in are absolutely critical because ultimately you don't invest in science you invest in people Yeah, yeah Having the right people necessary for success Into your instrumental in trying to create the right culture within yeah And that's something we can control because the science ultimately is science. It's it's nature Yeah And so as investors one thing that we can do to maximize the chance of success once you've got comfortable with taking a scientific risk Is making sure you've got the best people involved in something And we use our own networks and a whole bunch of headhunters to help Build those teams But that's something that I spend an awful lot of my time doing and making sure we get right because in a small company If you get the team wrong then It can be game over pretty quickly. Yeah. Yeah And scientific failure is accepted. It's part of our game. Yeah, but failure because a team has fallen out or You know, hasn't worked worked well together and you haven't identified those problems early on and helped rectify them you know Is unacceptable basically and is that science or art? Trying to get it. It's it's all art. There's abs. I mean I don't I don't really bother with all the psychometric stuff. I'm sure there's something to it, but ultimately it's You just do a gut feel Yeah It's hard to tell if somebody has the right technical skills And I think also in our business because we hire a lot of people from big companies big pharmaceutical companies Into the smaller. Yeah for what reason? Because they have good training and they have the right technical skills But the hardest thing is figuring out how they'll adapt to the small company environment. Yeah, yeah And it's it's really difficult to know that Yeah, interesting. I thought you would Maybe look for people who have had some experience working in similar size firms or startups or Develop something. Yeah I mean ultimately, you know In boston you can do that But in the uk or in europe The size of the talent pool is smaller. And so you have to be somewhat more Opportunistic about who you find that has the right technical background Yeah, and then try and find somebody that you think will fit culturally and Has the right personality to mix with the the existing team that is not easy and Takes quite a lot of skill Which I think is under appreciated in what investors contribute and and part of the risk really In building these teams. Yeah Interesting and they're happy for you to take the lead on that So they get on with their science and then or you engage with them Oh, yeah, the team is always involved in that process, but ultimately These people even the scientists are crucial in presenting the story either to investors or to potential acquirers of the company and so on And so finding somebody that has that right blend of technical ability But that can Present and come across well Is is really important and really rare actually, especially when you're dealing with people who are Quite nerdy at heart. Yeah. Yeah, and it's how big are these like These firms at this at this stage are you talking like You know a group of like three scientists and then you start getting a no business person Most companies start about that three to five And then grow usually to between 10 and 50 people Okay, and some of the companies are virtual, which means that all of their activities are done through outsourcing by contract research organizations And some of our companies have their own labs, you know in Cambridge or in Boston or whatever. Yeah, and they have a team of people working in the lab And usually a team of people in China, for example making the drugs, right Is that where they're all made nowadays? A lot of the a lot of the chemistry happens in India and China yet Largely to do with cost. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah And then so where's the hub for innovation in the UK? It's in Cambridge. Yeah. I mean, there's what they call the golden triangle, which is London Oxford Cambridge And outside of that it's fairly sparse But Cambridge has emerged as the biggest cluster And partly that's to do with Necessity so if you're getting involved with a very risky company that may fail You want to know that your family and livelihood is not Is not at risk And so if the project fails you'll have other opportunities to move into So you can keep your children at the same school. These are these are the scientists you're talking about Yeah, the scientists and the managers and the managers. Yeah It's not so easy once you get past a certain point in life to uproot your home and your children Every three or four years Because ultimately if these companies are successful they get bought and then usually The team is disbanded and if they fail then the team is disbanded as well And so usually the lifetime of a biotech company Especially in in Europe where there isn't the public market to float and stay independent is five six years Interesting interesting. So you invest in it. It's a vice of five six years They like the drug or whatever that they've invented. They buy that get rid of the people And that that does happen quite a bit. Yeah, and Once you've been associated with success then Finding your next gig is pretty easy. Usually these people are inundated with interest I think the trouble is when you've been associated with a company that has not been successful People seem to be a bit more understanding of the reasons behind that now and I think It's taken less personally as long as the company's failed for legitimate reasons Yeah, but most fail though, right out of like what 10 you're talking about one or two that the duela Yeah, one or two out of 10 for sure and then companies either You know Merge with other companies or they fold or they Give their assets away for cheap to to other companies But there's there's an awful lot of Mergers acquisitions You know, there's a flow of IP around the landscape And and one of the things that people some people have been Quite successful with is taking a drug that has for example failed in one disease And people have lost interest in it picking it up for cheap And then testing it in another disease. Oh, okay. Yeah. And actually one one area that that was hugely successful was thalidomide What's that? So thalidomide was the drug that was used to treat pregnant women's morning sickness Right, but it was very controversial because it created a lot of birth defects limb abnormalities in babies And so the drug was obviously was banned From being used in pregnant women But people realized that it could be used to treat multiple myeloma, which is a form of bone marrow cancer And there was a company called selgene in the states that Took up this idea and tested it in patients and got this drug They basically got thalidomide approved in cancer And actually as long as you're not a pregnant woman have it's it's not that dangerous to take it And they built a business that drug was making 10 billion dollars a year for them Wow, it's an old drug. Wow Also, you've seen like cannabis recently. Yeah mdma lsd, you know, all these illegal like party drugs Yeah, they're now starting to be cannabis is a huge. Oh man massive. Yeah. Yeah, I mean everyone's there's a lot of hype involved And but I think any any like good science behind it Yeah, there's some very good science particularly in certain forms of epilepsy and depression and pain and Things involved in with the central nervous system because you know, these drugs You know recreational drugs are very potent You know Farmer pharmaceuticals and as long as you can iron out the Negative effects or the narcotic effects. They can have pretty beneficial effects in you know in the right dose and Yeah, what's the coolest thing coming up? What is the coolest thing coming up? So the thing that i'm most excited about at the moment is a company that i've been involved with for about three years Which spun out of the charity cancer research uk which has a new way of treating certain types of cancer that have a particular genetic weakness And you they found this totally new drug new new target Which specifically kills the cancer cells, but not the normal cells And the interesting thing is that we think that if you identify patients that have this particular genetic background then the chance of them being Treated and cured by the drug is extremely high Awesome. Awesome. And how far away is that from coming to market? It's uh, it's still a few years. Yeah, it's still a few years. Yeah cool, and so if you're Last thing if you're a if you're a budding scientist with some great innovative ideas So the best place to be found is cambridge Is that the That's probably true. And if you're not there then you have to Make a bit more effort to fine. So get yourself to cambridge Then you'll get found by some investors or oxford or london Yeah, but you know to be fair inventions come out of everywhere And it's partly our job to make sure that we're all over the place to find stuff Nice, and if they want to be a vc biotech person What's the what's the best route? Yeah, I get asked that a lot actually by People coming out of or who want to come out of academia I'd say the best route is You know, you need a phd generally but then to work in Man some sort of farmer or biotech consulting So Which I didn't do so what was that like a mckinsey or bane or that kind of thing but focused on This on the healthcare sector And a lot of people will do that for two or three years and it's sort of like going to business school, but You know with more practical experience And it's that doing lots of projects in in a medium amount of depth You get a good idea of how the industry works and who the players are Which you don't get from being in the lab She she read you it's unlikely to get hired directly from the lab It's unlikely Unless it's at a very junior level But there's quite a lot of competition to get into the venture capital industry Because there's very few positions and it's something that people You know are attracted by and so it's very important to have some additional skills Yeah, cool Thank you. Yeah, thanks a lot. Yeah, that's awesome. That was awesome. Um, thanks for joining me in studio. We'll get you back in for another session And uh, yeah, enjoy crossfit. Great. Thanks Lewis. Thank you. Hey folks. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe in all the usual places