 What's up? What's up? What's up? I'm Brian man, Sean and I'm Corey and we are back with another episode of no labels necessary podcast You can catch us wherever you stream your podcast here at the intersection of creativity and currency You know, we love to bring special guests on that can give y'all the knowledge that You know, makes it easy to skip college for y'all who want to do that these days This is Damien Ritter man. This dude is Um a manager of comedian big jaw who's popping. He's successful He's director of communications at one of the biggest upcoming distributors called two loss Y'all've heard us talk about two loss. So we're going to get into a little bit of that there He was the CEO of funk volume. If I that was the correct role. I said that right, right? Yeah Now funk volume was I mean and we're talking about the the 2000 early 2010s That was like one of the behemoths multi-million dollar indie Like behemoth which like doing multiple hundreds of thousands, right? It's a beautiful thing when we talk about indie That's a hard thing to do, especially back then. So we're going to get into some of that But obviously the point is this man is somebody who's worth talking to this This this ain't a running running the meal guests because we don't do that. Yeah, I mean So The start off man, first of all, I appreciate having you on day No, I appreciate you guys having me for a second time always cool chopping it up with y'all. I appreciate it That's right, man. You wanted a few second second timers, man No, jr's been on twice. He's been on twice But he's been on the channel three times because I did a talk with you years ago when it was like some zoom type stuff Okay, you know, it can put you ahead if you want to go that way But I I want to get right into it, man Just a value because you have so much to provide and I think a good place to start, right You had funk volume in terms of how you entered the industry Several artists, um, how many artists did y'all have? Uh, we have four artists and a producer or two. Yeah, we signed four producers or producers Yeah, right did multiple millions in that era, but now You've continued to manage over the years probably the last artist you managed was probably like 2022 Maybe music artists. Yeah. Yeah, I would I worked with futuristic for for a minute. All right. That was before 2022 That was probably Before it was before the pandemic. Okay Time flies. Yeah, the point is All right You've stayed in the game and seen so many different times On parts of the game and have worked through multiple eras So I would love to know if you were building A funk volume today. Yeah, right in this era. Y'all are very innovative back then. Yeah, how would you look to? Do that I guess a good way to even start to be so we can be specific We can start with the artist side then the label like or general side So how would you look to like work with an artist breaking artists? I Feel like today like if funk volume continued to exist We would have continued we would have crushed it because I think today you consistently have to be present, right? And when you when you're working with a label, there's less pressure on one individual artist To keep up with things, right? So what I mean by that is like, you know, if I was running the label Still, you know hot would be putting out an album But the other guys would be supporting that and be on the album, right? And then when that album cycle will be over like Dizzy would probably be putting out an album And then when that album side like we always have something to push and promote like some master p-type stuff And even exactly even so even when it wasn't the music We're probably touring and if we weren't touring then we're putting out a documentary And if we're not putting out a documentary then we're doing our community service initiative And if we're not doing that we're hosting a contest or a virtual conference There were always so many things to push and promote and giving people different entry points to learn about the artist and the label So I think we would it it would have been Not easy for we would this would have been the time to really shine Because you know, I think the content would have just gotten better. Everything would have just gotten better Who would have made more relationships and just been on bigger platforms? Um, so that's kind of what artists need to do Themselves right is just kind of build their world and be consistent with their messaging being consistent with the content And just give fans different opportunities to learn about who they are Um, so that they become fans of them. I mean you guys talk about this stuff all the time. So I wish I you know, I wish We could have kept going to be in this time because I feel like we would have crushed it I feel like we would have definitely crushed this arrow for sure Yeah, I mean everything you say actually reminds me of a the conversation we just had the other day Uh, or yesterday that whenever when they were talking about always on All right, you basically you're talking about from a label perspective. Yeah, all right There's always something happening. All right, where there's never a day where fans can't come in They can't consume. There's always something being put out so they can stay in the world And you know if I can keep them in my world, then I can hold that attention to guide them towards something else All right, you pretty much a full-belonged tv network at that point We were actually thinking of getting into comedy too because I work I work with big job and I was a comedian Um, and he has a pretty sizable platform now But I wanted to get him involved because we were going to start funk volume tv You know to eventually pitch to a network, but until then just kind of do it on youtube We had a lot of plans, you know Just to be able to use the brand to just do some other interesting things um So, yeah, maybe ja would have been a part of funk volume tv as opposed to having like his own platform, um, you know, but Things work out the way they're supposed to work out and ja's doing amazing So, I mean it is what it is. But but yeah, it would have been, you know, this time I feel like would have been perfect for us But you know ultimately like I said, that's what that's what artists should be working on their own kind of smaller version of that to build the momentum to You know have the options to do bigger things as well It was funk funk volume aside, right? So taking that same experience but not With those same characters Like and just looking at the game today, right? I know you're trying to necessarily just hop in with an artist I'm just hopping in and build a label overnight. But let's just say as a manager If you had to pick an artist Right now What would be like an ideal ideal situation if you were like looking for artists? What would you be looking for to say? Okay, that's the type of artist that I want to manage and build around Um, so I think at this point, I feel like the artist has to have some momentum already um They have to You know, I have to think the music is amazing I think they have to be comfortable on camera to have the solid understanding of what their brand their messaging is Willing to put in the work willing to be consistent put out music put out content Uh, they have to have some interest in learning the business Right because working with artists that don't really understand the business. I'm not doing that again Uh, because it's frustrating when you need to have certain conversations Uh, communication has to be on point Um, that's one another thing that was lacking in my funk volume experience Um, so because when you're working with an artist, especially when you have something going on like We're in constant communication because there's something going on all the time So even with big job right now like we're we're constantly working on something So right now we're shooting his most popular series is the lesbian homie So we're working on season season three of the lesbian homie Um, and there's so much that we want to do around that right so Uh, so we're thinking about doing a premiere not only in la but in new york You know, we're thinking about putting together a soundtrack for it. Um So the communication has to be on point because I think dope managers are always thinking about like What we can do to advance things Right and I think that's Just extremely I think artists typically undervalue like A manager or don't really know what a manager does but just think about having somebody that's constantly Thinking about how to grow your business Like that's extremely and can execute right like that's extremely valuable um So when you're arguing if you have somebody like that and you keep arguing like I don't want to give you 20% like You know if they're locked in that's It's worth a lot more than 20% of my opinion, but but but yeah But let me ask you this thing because you you said a couple things you answered I feel like I'm gonna get the pitchforks Raised in the comments, but you said two things you would look for Is an artist that already has some momentum. Yeah, and an artist that is willing to learn the business. Um, We understand why you would say that but just from a manager Label exact standpoint. Can you explain why the the pre-momentum is so important? Yeah, because if you were a manager worth your salt, man Yeah, you can get me popping what you mean? No, it's especially maybe a younger manager Can take that that risk and has that time, you know But if it and I wasn't just in a management situation rather I owned half the label So I was protected more than a typical manager, right? But a lot of a lot of times managers get fired kind of out of nowhere, right? And if you're working with somebody that doesn't have any momentum that's not making any money You're essentially doing an internship an unpaid internship. That's what you're asking that person to do Um, so you're telling me I have to put all this sweat equity in And then you can get mad at me in a year and then I'm just Asked out like no, I don't I'm so Younger managers might need to take chances on artists like that to build up a resume to get some experience But like an older manager like I'm not I'm not going through that again. You know what I'm saying? I'm not putting in all that sweat equity, you know, you're not we're not making anything right now and then potentially something goes wrong or somebody gets in your ear and You know wants to be your manager and then you're like deuces because You claim I didn't really do anything but because you didn't understand the business You didn't understand what I was doing or what kind of role I actually played in your business So that's why it's important to understand the business because if you don't understand the business You can't really properly value your team not just your manager anybody on your team So, you know, you need to learn the business not just to understand what moves you need to make But you also need to learn the business so that you understand that I'm not just Plug and play there's differences between managers If you do know the business you understand a good manager manager versus a bad manager Or a good business manager versus a bad man business manager, right? Or so that's why you need that You don't need to understand the business like I understand the business But you need to have a certain level of understanding so we can be on the same page when we have certain conversations God's Stop what you're doing. We've got to interrupt you to let you know you can win $20,000 By submitting your music to twolost.com Slash collab for the crown. We're looking for the best songs and we're partnering with two loss So if you think you got some great music, if you think you got the goods Go to that site twolost.com slash collab for the crown Check out the instructions for the contest win up to $20,000 and make sure You put in no label when you create your profile on two loss so you can make sure you get three months Completely free That's twolost.com slash collab for the crown And again when you sign up put in the code no label all one word And you will get three months completely free Go in there $20,000 because you know, you got the goods you got the talent You just got to make sure you submit peace. I got a question for both of y'all while we're on artists and how Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know Uh, you've managed many many of acts to Cory to manage them You know, I know you and you've managed, you know, so There there's this popular You know, there's a popular question right now, it's it's been a popular question, but Um, it bubbled up again because it was on Ray Daniels podcast I would like to know y'all's opinion On talent versus clout, which one would you rather have so we could start with with you Ninja Cory. I want to hear your thoughts on it, man Um So wait, so talent versus clout I'd rather have somebody that's like running around doing pranks and just getting fat followers Or do I or do I want somebody that actually has talent, but they still have the work ethic, right? They're still putting out content or no, you can you can answer it how you however you think first I mean, I how would you personally I don't really want to be Tired to like stuff this a flash in the pan Like I want to build something that hopefully stands the test of time and to do that you need talent Right, so hopefully the talent comes with a certain level of work ethic So even if this talent doesn't currently have like the two million followers that this prankster has You know, but again, they got for me to jump in I got it's gotta It's got to be moving a little bit, you know something Um, so you need a little bit of clout Can't just be talent so not a percentage then because to me if you don't because my brother was trying to convince me That there's like there's amazing artists out there right now that is doing a lot of things right that only has a hundred followers And I just don't believe that's that's That's true Like if because if you were doing even a fraction of what you need to do if the music is that amazing even if you weren't Doing the additional content even if you were just consistently putting out music I feel like It would have a little bit of a a little bit of a community like my guy ollie joseph right now Yeah, this is my guy. He's super super talented. He doesn't really have much going on on instagram And when I say that he probably has Maybe like 14,000 followers or whatever, but he's got he hit him. He had a million monthly listeners on spotify Um, so he's doing it more with just consistency and just the quality of the music So I feel like if they're I just I just can't imagine finding somebody with a hundred followers That's like extremely amazing unless they're just Like in a hole somewhere doing their thing like if they're trying even a little bit with amazing music like You know, there's they got 5,000 You know, so you say it's hard to have talent today without at least having some clout Yeah, yeah, if you really I mean if you really stand out with the music You know because I think there's so much other music out there that is Not quality like if you're putting out amazing music Then I feel like people will you know, there's curators and stuff out people will people will find you Got you got you. All right, Cory. Well real quick because I feel like you brought something really interesting That's gonna piss people off. You said in today's age. It's hard to be talented And not get some clout, right? Because to your point eventually it was shine through and we've seen as marketer like we've seen Content get put out that Wasn't great, but the song behind it was so strong that like it just kind of carried through and broke through So I 100% agree with that with that being said I'm taking clout I'm gonna tell you why I'm gonna take clout one one of the greatest Music artists of our generation ever started clout first. You know who that is Eddie Murphy But I would I would take clout first just because I believe that um I believe that you can take someone from bad to okay And I feel like in majority of music like okay, we'll get you far enough You know what I'm saying, um It's really hard sometimes to get an artist that's talented to do the things to become cloudy because they Get so ego driven by the talent. They feel like they're too good to do certain things that get some of the audience Usually from my experience like when I've met like influencers or people that already have an audience They're very much so down to do whatever To do that keeps the business going versus like artists that are talent first are usually the complete opposite Like I'm not stepping out of sight of any bag that could possibly be a detriment to My talent and like I said, I don't I don't think depending on the genre It's not the most difficult thing to do to build like a semi-talented person like get you some vocal I could make you I feel like I could make you like a like a hopper pop singer You know what I'm saying like six months. You know if I try hard no, um and especially with music being a lot more uh, I feel like Open is a lot more people to collab with a lot of the behind the scenes people that were typically the star makers of yesteryear A lot more front-facing now. Yeah, I think I would take I'll take cloud I mean that's interesting. You may I think you make some some good points. But again, I I'm looking for the outlier. You know I'm saying like as a manager You should be looking for the outlier You know that that special that special person if you're gonna invest your time of resources into to somebody You know So it might what you're saying might work faster for sure But for me, it just wouldn't be as fulfilling and I wouldn't be as excited to like tell my friends about it You know, but but you're still hoping for somebody who's willing to do the work with cloud Right. Yeah. Well, I'm not to get to the the cloud because I think that's the that's the difference, right There's like are you just have cloud because you're out here doing some So whatever or you just happen to have cloud for whatever reason you already had it And then there's a are you talented and the question becomes are you willing to do The things to help market and promote yourself. So your talent does Get attached to some level of cloud, right? Well, I'm not hope I never look for anybody to like I don't like management like I don't want to be I never wanted to be a manager Like I came out from outside the music industry and we started a label together and I feel like You know, the manager's role has evolved into so many things these days And I felt like I was already doing the things as we were trying to grow this label that a manager would be doing So why would somebody else come in here? You know, one we didn't really have access to anybody. We're just kind of doing a dolo But um, you know, I kind of got thrust into a management role. Like I don't love management. I love people You know I'm saying like I I feel like I have a skill set That can be a catalyst in somebody to for somebody's success So I do it Gladly and willingly. So I'm not I don't hate my job, but I don't love management You know, I just want to see cats win. Let me ask you this In that context like what What exactly is the difference? Right? Because it makes me think of um, I'm sure y'all seem like the Taraji P. Henson situation that's been going on, right? So there was a clip where I remember Oprah was saying like hey, it sounds like Taraji is mad at us about things that Are really the studios fault and it makes me think of Situations where an artist might be upset at the manager Right or thinking they're not doing certain things and it's really the label's Job to do it in vice versa. So in that context, you're right Like you are both hats at the same time. Like what is the divide? Like what is the what is technically the difference in the roles? So I never again coming from outside and kind of learning the business When we were when I was already starting a label and being a manager. I didn't I I never looked at it different from what we were doing like I understand the difference now But I feel like managers are tasked with with so much like sometimes the only difference is the label was funding you You know what I mean and you guys are tasked with figuring everything else out Like sometimes the labels take, you know Keep make you a priority and You know, we'll be more involved But sometimes labels are signing artists and they're pretty much like hey figure it out until you got something And then we'll you know, we'll jump in and see what we can do. Um, so You know, like I said, I think the manager's Role everything about the manager's role has evolved and set for the percentage, right? See that's a big thing right there because The percentage in many ways, I know a lot of managers feel like that should change, right? It's because we're doing so many different things. You're basically if you want a CEO essentially versus Back in the day is more so Getting you some tours Right getting you booking you for shows that was connecting like just connecting the dots having certain conversations, you know Yeah, I don't want to completely minimize that's all they were doing but now there's just so many opportunities There's no cookie cutter version of it because the infrastructure is really I don't want to say it's It's diminished, but you have that traditional infrastructure, but then you have An infinite amount of other options. Do you want to really lean into gaming for your brand sink for your brand? Do you really not care about touring or festivals at all? You want to build this personality? Do you want to be halfway an actor? There's so many ways that you can flip it and it requires a special skill set and constant learning To be able to delve into that which makes me think back to that talent versus cloud conversation I think if you hear the answers that both of y'all said Something that artists should really take from it is The reason a lot of business people end up Leaning towards let's say some version of cloud Or at least an artist who will work and be willing to put themselves out there versus just hey I got this talent and now I got to lift all the weight It's because you have somebody who is completely relying on you for their lifestyle Right, right. So it's like if you think about it artists like that's why I try to get artists to do like think On the other side of the table If you're working with somebody and all your money is dependent on them You have to live your life based on what they're willing to make How would you feel of someone? Yeah, they have all the talent in the world But they're not willing to promote themselves and do certain things versus the other person who yes may be Half as talented, but they still are talented And possibly could develop especially if you get the right situations or find their particular bag Yeah, but they're willing to do All of the other things That are required like my analogy from our last conversation The me and jacquery had similar to this was Like you can be A good basketball player, but you might not be a good NBA player Right because being a NBA player takes work at the consistency Right studying the plays It's not the same as just pulling up, you know to the park You know people can start to study your moves Understand game after game what your tendencies are and now they can defend against it Being a musician right somebody who's good at making music and being a commercially successful Or let's not say commercially because people have a perception of that just being a Successful artist from a business standpoint living your career. That is a different thing than just being a musician You know, yeah No, for sure for sure the basketball analogy is interesting too because if you if you listen to like JJ reddick's podcast Or like all of these all these NBA players that talk about basketball in a completely different way You know like damn, you know, what's the pin down? What's the dho? Like you start to learn like there's a different There's a different level level of of just studying and to stay in the league Right because cats get drafted and then you're like, where'd they go? You know There's a certain way you have to carry yourself to be in the league if you're more of like a role player Right if you're a role player, you got to play your role not just on the court But you can't be a cancer in the locker room. You have to be prepared. You know, it's a different It's a different ballgame if it's a you know cat JJ was able to stay. I mean he's a shooter So, you know teams need shooters, but it's also that level of professionalism just understanding kind of what keeps you in the league I love those podcasts. I love, you know that insight. So it's I think it's a dope analogy Yeah, yeah, I mean and that makes me think even further Right because it's just about being a professional. Yeah, right. So Like as an artist, what does that even mean? What does it look like to even understand what it was required to collaborate with somebody? different languages in the studio the different languages when you're talking to your manager or Understanding all those different roles. Yeah, where they where they rely Answering your emails being quick with communication texting people back calling people back, you know keeping a calendar Treating people with respect being conscious of how you address people in the words you choose Um, all that stuff matters if you want a longer career, right? If you're easier to work with like every time somebody comes to me with an opportunity I'm not only I'm always thinking about who's Who do I know is going to execute this and not mess my name up? You know what I mean? I just I literally just passed on an opportunity to an artist And I told the public look I got a perfect artist for you I was like what what level of artist does the artist need to be? So I got to get an understanding of like what stage in their career and then I told I was like I promise you I won't send you anybody that will be difficult to work with because it's so crucial And a lot of people are making those decisions But they're not going to tell you that right? They're not going to tell you that I didn't bring this opportunity to you because the last time you came, you know You smoked in the dressing room. We told you not to do that, right? You're just not going to get the call Right, they're not going to give you that feedback. They're just you're just not going to get the call again So you got to carry yourself with respect out of tree people with respect Um, you know be a professional and you'll get more opportunities. I'm glad you said that because I mean, that's a fact Most like so many times The artists that might start it off as like just a client or something or they bought one of our courses So we talk to them and we're helping them out then naturally We're always going to like end up looking at the music understand the quality and then even the the way they ask questions so you start to like pay attention to how they think and you build a relationship and If there's an opportunity that comes Like i'm not managing On anybody in particular. So i'm just going to think about well, who do I know? Right that can plug and play and the first thing that you think about though. It's still my reputation It has to be somebody where Dame is like, oh, yeah, that was dope man appreciate that shine versus like ah dang shine Your judgment is poor and I don't even know if I could trust you for any other business situation now Like it really is that simple like being somebody that someone else can rely on and give opportunities to yeah because that actually Especially in a relationship business like that it makes you look good To have a good judgment and have other good people around you basically You know what I mean for sure throwing the lob don't you know, it's an assist for me It's points for you, but it's an assist for me people are still looking at assist too. So it helps me So i'm definitely not you know throwing the lob to anybody that I know won't dunk it You know If we're gonna keep with the basketball analogy I want to um play a dame clip Okay And here's some more commentary on something you said All right, i'm gonna play this Oh, shit. This is where like music is getting discovered. This is where music is starting to to to win So they started you know once they start getting involved with stuff They typically fuck stuff up. They messed up south by they messed up a lot of stuff Like once they you know once indies do stuff and successfully and then the major labels look like oh, man We should do the same thing and typically messes it up. So my actual believe it there. Yeah I want to hear more on that Yeah, the major labels are always still in the independent ideas Like all the stuff that's popular now is stuff the independent artists have been doing for the longest You know is is the director fan, you know the finding your super fans like we we've been and We weren't pioneers of it like you know independent cast have been independent for decades Doing their thing and they might have used different ways to get the fans like because ultimately We built our label from social media. I felt like you know, we really built it on facebook Facebook primarily like during that time facebook was like Everything for us because the algorithm wasn't as restrictive. There were hella people on it You know, so I was organizing street teams on that joint like so there was like funk There were groups like funk volume los angeles volume chicago funk And our fans were street team leaders of each of those groups So I just had to kind of anytime we put out something I send the email to the to the street team leaders and they put it in the groups and our stuff spread faster. So Not to say the labels are doing that essentially but they They're constantly looking at independent artists to seeing like what they can do And just put a bigger budget on it, right? They were the blogs like You know, that was a great way for artists to get exposure if you had access to the blogs We didn't get we didn't get coverage on blogs until we were popping like until we got our own numbers up Then the blogs started supporting what we were doing so Um But I feel like, you know, the major labels always try to co-op, you know, what what independent artists are doing That's where they get ideas from is from from the independent space So that's where the creativity is because we don't got the we didn't have the money You got to be creative when you don't have money So the labels just come in or we can do that and we can put 20 000 on it Like and then it just kind of messes up some of the experiences Yeah, see that's why I thought you were going when I heard the club I thought you were gonna because I we've talked about this before we're like Major labels will Up the cost to do marketing a lot of the times, right? So like let's say for example, shone runs whatever Instagram rap page shone might be charging 75 dollars You know what I'm saying whole indie community happy I mean we save all the posts shone getting five to 10 k views opposed every time I use shone I get a hundred followers and then the label will come along and be like, oh bro Like I see you got you know your page What if I give you 500 for it and shone obviously is going to take Take the 500 but now shone is thinking like damn if I get 500 from Interscope I get 500 from columbia I'm charging everybody 500 right and you know Some page curators and influencers are smart enough to know You know what I'm saying the difference between the two and it makes sense and some aren't right Some will just see like oh, this is my new floor. Yeah, and like that's why I thought you were going with Because I think you know I've heard similar things about like You know festival markets, um, even though they're not supposed to be paid to play Robert same thing about the blogger right where it's like hey anytime there seems to be the sustainable Pathway for artists to grow themselves Eventually the labels inject too much money into it and then they Outpriced the rest of the market and then what becomes interesting is because the labels have now Priced the platform out the market it no longer becomes as valuable to The labels as it was when that when shone was charging 75 like and then it's charging 500 Nobody wants to use them. He's posting less. He's going a lot less writing So it kind of messes up the whole marketplace So yeah, so then that whoever runs that blog is starting to get a bunch of money And their ego might start going out of control. I didn't think about that. Yeah You know I'm saying so now now it's not even about the blog. It's about That person so now it's no longer even about the music like the music that you you started the blog because you really Were interested in the music and you love the culture and now it's just spiraled out of control You know, so that's not my word. That's not even the place. That's not even the place to find dope music anymore That's just a pay-to-play situation And the owner is an asshole like so, yeah I've seen in a real time many times either because We were paying for something then the influencer or the page got management and up the price and everybody saw that as an op or Advising let's say for a label or a bigger situation So we inquired about the prices and then all of a sudden it was like dang I was kind of a part of You know up in the price man I should have I should have did my campaigns in this order instead because this other artist might not have the budget But you can see in real time as they realized their potential and like and like jacquory said Most people don't understand the nuance Um, because I remember early on the tick top like me and jacquory called it called it early on We knew the labels were going to run the numbers up and prices were going we're going to fly but Beyond the labels you would see influencers who don't have the education in general Get brand deals and it's like, yeah, bro. We're not sneakers. Like this is You know, I mean like sneakers coming with a 5k bag Just put a single post and this is like indie artists even label artists Is like, yeah, I know this artist has a label and y'all don't understand these label budgets They aren't as big as they seem on the outside. You know what I mean? So there's just all this education that Slowly messes up the market and our job as like indies and I didn't know that was our advantage coming in um That we like started and we really like most people just didn't understand like how much like we Probably like 95% um indie in terms of like just the numbers of the people we serve and that forces you like you said To be more creative find the thing that gets the highest return on the value Yeah, right and then when the label messes up like all right Then we just have to find the next thing and find the next thing over and over again That becomes the process because you don't have any other choice. Yeah not Yeah, I mean I'm not and I'm not hating on blogs or because at the end at the end of the day Like you guys got to get your get your money too, right? But there needs to be Some level of integrity to this. I remember I was I forget what year I was a south by and the rat radar was up there laughing about Like the pay-to-play situation like these cats are laughing up there. I'm like, yo Like that's why I just kind of lost respect for for blogs and just how they operate And like who's getting opportunities and you know, again, just how it shifted from You probably started the blog because you really wanted to be a part of the culture You wanted to push the culture forward and then it became a lick. So You know, it's just unfortunate. I think it's a balance that every Stakeholder music or especially people who have media Um facing aspects. So that's an artist, right? That's media PR facing and then you have the platforms because There's a prime associated with that. Right. It's like, yeah, my blog is hitting I was only making this much old snap. I have this huge opportunity because I'm getting paid more How do I maximize this? Right, right? But then just like the artist A blog might in or festival might end up exploiting themselves too much and they damaged the brand So it's like, what is that balance and everybody has to figure that out I was like, how do I start to maximize value but maintain some level of integrity and brand So I can sustain and although I might not make this money In the short term right over two years I can still make that money over five years and then I'll still be around in 10 years And the like the hockey stick will go so crazy. I done made a hundred X, right? But I think It's it's so attractive and enticing when you just start seeing those bigger numbers and it starts to come easy It's like, damn these people are hitting me up, right? And they're just offering checks, you know, I'm saying and the artist is like Oh, all of a sudden I'm making this much money per show and everything's going viral for them for the moment So I don't have to build a real relationship with all these people because it's just happening for me at the moment Right, and I think that's the dangerous period for Like anybody when you first start to have certain levels of success But especially people where it moves really quickly and it's based off of some like media Like I said front-facing aspect and that's again where an experienced manager comes comes in Like if you have a great relationship with your manager, that's kind of been down this road before You know, hopefully kind of can keep your your ego in check your expectations in check and kind of Played a long game as opposed to reacting to everything that's short term But again, that's another that's another area that a good manager could help out that you wouldn't even You wouldn't even think about you know in terms of like a responsibility day to day. Yeah, you talked about um Rat radars, I guess sentiments towards pay-to-play. Do you feel like the The industry narrative around pay-to-play is changing at all. Do you think it is it's different now compared to yesteryears? Yeah, well, I don't really think I mean, you know, because a lot of artists will say Will blame their lack of success on the industry being pay-to-play Right But that's just an excuse because you know We see we see creators or artists move with very little to no money or start to build an audience With very little to no money, right? Like I've seen rappers like just do freestyles in the back of their car just like a series of of um Freestyles in the back of their car to build an audience, right, you know, mr. Hotspot He built an audience by smiling Right and just encouraging encouraging people to smile some people doing it dancing. So I mean, eventually, you know, when you have a little money you want to invest in your career and bootstrap bootstrap your business um You know, but I don't really I don't think it's like a pay-to-play Situ unless you're just if unless you're calling ads that you know what I mean like I don't I wouldn't pay Like the worst $50 that I ever spent and I still want it back Was at a conference before we started before we got momentum Like I paid to get our song heard by this a and r person that I was like they played it and I was like They're like, oh, that's amazing and then I just walked out of the room and then I felt like Like give me my $50 back. Yo, I like what did I do this for? So I mean it just people have different definitions of what pay-to-play is but I don't as an independent artist like we you There's so many creative ways to move and to start some initial momentum I mean you can sell merch these days with very little money with print to find print fully like you can Like you can just if you have like a certain skill Like let's say it's freestyle you could do like a weekly freestyle or whatever and you start to build an audience that way But every time you you do your freestyle you end it with like some Tagline or slogan or whatever and then that's what you want to put on your shirt Like you can put up a website these days for less than a hundred dollars You know attach printful to it put that tagline on your shirt and start generating a little money You know, so you can start with very little and just build But I don't think too many people are willing to put in that effort to build. They just want Like a huge lump sum dropped on their lap But like you guys know even if that did happen, they wouldn't know what to do with it Thanks Yeah, I mean I even asked because I don't I don't necessarily believe in the notion of pay-to-play. I look at it as we are in Investing in this platform that we look to maintain a relationship with right because we well I know I've said on the pot before I personally feel like if someone took the time to build out their platform I do feel like they deserve to be paid for it But you know, I've noticed that there's a overwhelmingly large part of the industry that will feel like that's a bad thing Right. Like and I don't know. I feel like it's kind of changing like a lot of the new Massive platforms are starting to be very open about it. Like you can look on Let me think of a platform like, you know for shooters only massive freestyle or you know performance platform right now Has nobody or you'll submit for uh submissions if you go on the link it tells you right there This is the price, you know, to be on here. So you're starting to notice that it seems like a lot of the newer platforms Don't shy away from it. So I thought it was interesting that you said someone like right all right Would they come from the the more old school? But method of music where dad was like, you know, like the ultimate sin You know what I'm saying was to learn that like oh Sean paid a hundred dollars to get on this radio show That was like the ultimate sin back then. So I'm just curious if you if you had noticed like a shift in the attitude towards it Yeah, I don't know. Um You know, typically, you know the pay-to-play from the era we came up with was like It referred to like radio or blog placements Um, you know, if you're paying if you really think this opportunity Is legit because there's a lot of wack, you know fake opportunities out there You know that you submit pay this and you know We're look at your music or we might put you on it really just depends on you know, what the opportunity is I wouldn't necessarily say like no never pay to play I would have to really understand what the opportunity is what You're trying to use it for what level you are in your career And then we'll figure because even with like paying to get on to a tour, right for most artists I would say it's it's not worth paying to get on a tour However, if you're if you got a really dope live show If they're allowing you merch space If they're putting you on close to the main act like it's the right artist. Yeah, and it's the right demographic Um, then you I have seen in rare occasions like Artists ending up making more than what they invested in their tour and they picked up a shitload of fans Right, but for most artists there they shouldn't pay to get because because it's a lot of times It's a shitty opportunity because you don't really get much merch space You're going on right when the doors open and nobody's in the building So you have to really again got to have an experienced manager to know to get to ask these questions You know, so it's really just a case by case Yeah, before I get to the one last topic another dame dame