 Alright, welcome guys Welcome to the classic cast blizzcon 2018 day one recap. I'm here with tips out I'm here with stay safe doing as we both as our guests. We also have any future She's gonna help us with our Q&A a little bit. We don't have our typical setup We're streaming from the IRL backpack. So it's gonna be a little bit different look a little bit different style We're on the road. So we're not gonna be quite as active with the chat and whatnot But he's gonna be helping us out with that. So First things first We got we got some good news today. We got some great Dropset about classic think about how Diablo players feel Yeah, yeah, we we went out today. We we we draw the good straw. That was not thinking we were gonna get a release time time frame Right, I did not think we get though. You know, so what do we get today? We got a release time frame. We didn't get a release date. We've got a release time frame Which which we all hope for but nobody really expected, right, but we all hope for it We also got the subscription model They said that it's going to be a link subscription with the retail game, which I think pretty much anybody who's who's invested in this Has been saying that's the best case scenario. Yeah for everybody. Yeah, so Really really exciting to hear What do you guys think about that? What do you guys think of summer? I think that honestly like we got the best news today that we could have ever possibly gotten I mean two things that I thought were important And also I think this ties into BFA's really scheduled to to an extent and it gives us an idea on When they're planning on releasing the next expansion so we could probably see that happening faster and Probably in the low of content between BFA and whatever the next expansion is going to be We're gonna see classic while sometime in December of 2019 absolutely incredible That is more than anybody had hoped for I myself I was expecting November for the 15th anniversary of wow and I think everybody's feeling great about that and the link Subscription is absolutely a great thing and it's going to create a really good symbiotic relationship between Classic while and also the current game. Yeah, I mean the better retail web does in this environment The better retail one is the better classic well will do and vice versa for both games. Yeah, yeah, I Think one thing like I know we said before like if we're really lucky it could be six months, right and We could be getting that just about right. We could be getting just about six months and you know It's not gonna be 12 months, right? I didn't think it was gonna be any later than 12 months I did not think it was gonna be later than November of next year. I thought there's no way But one of the biggest things that I think we can kind of infer From let's say summer. It could be June. It could be May. It could be July September whatever August It could be August 31st. It could be August 31st. I mean, it could be whatever right, but I Think that it's it's all but a guarantee That we're going to have some kind of classic testing period extended testing period alpha beta something like that within the next three months And I think that's something that like we might see Christmas come early. Yeah Yeah, we're not the demo of the alpha. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I think that's something to be really excited about Being able to you know, I'm sure it's gonna be a lot like the BFA alpha. They're probably gonna address the same way It's gonna be like a hype thing, but you know They'll go through and I've always said that I think that the testing period is really important because there's so many things that they're gonna Have to go through and thoroughly look at yeah Both from a design perspective and just testing to make sure it's not bugged out Well, there's that's good. I was gonna say it's very important Obviously, there are things that need to be addressed on the demo I don't think it's the end of the world, but there are issues that need to be taken care of That we've all seen and I'm sure everyone's worried and we'll talk about that later in the podcast That's a big thing and I want to make one clarification here A lot of people don't really understand how this game came into being the current game for the classic demo is kind of a Frankenstein between the 7.35 client and also the 1.12 client So that means that a lot of the things that you're seeing on accident like slash LFR A lot of the stat values a lot of those things there Those are purely incidental by the nature of the patch and the skeleton that they're running the game off of And I in no way shape or form guys I know there's been a lot of people concerned about what they were seeing the phasing issues I think the phasing we're gonna get into that talk about a lot more But I think that the phasing that we're seeing probably is also sharding. What's the sharding? Yeah, everybody's calling it phasing and it's making a very big difference A lot of these things especially like the stat values and that kind of stuff movement speed Many of those things I think are probably gonna get changed between now and over the game comes out And it's intentional that they are going to change those things because they are running it off of a newer game 7.3.5 is obviously the latest version of the Legion client So all those things were in place during the Legion clients So they have to work backwards and remove the things that they've done from the Legion client one example of that is Obviously the difference between stat numbers versus stat percentages. So I'm talking about like critical strike I think a lot of you guys remember back whenever we went from vanilla wild burning crusade 14 critical strike was 1% critical strike rating, right? So that's never they moved from percentages over to rating They are I would bet a million dollars on the fact that they are going to be moving everything back over to percentages It's just something they're in the process of doing it And why do you guys think they're having us do it in Westfall and the Barrens? It's because they don't have any of the other zones ready. You know why it's because it's a demo. They're not ready They're not finished. It's not done. So don't worry the sky is not falling Everything is not, you know, just the worst thing ever like it's fine. It's in a process I wanted to say that and make sure that we cleared the air with that It's very important to just kind of be on even ground and be level-headed here Yeah, I think so too and kind of speaking to that like, you know, yes Of course there weren't like, you know green items of the fever flare or whatever I mean, I don't know what actually dropped, right? But there there weren't items green items that were dropping secondary stats And in vanilla while like that That's not something that you would see especially not dynamic drops again That's another holdover from the gear that you receive from different mobs being tied to the level that you are Whenever you whenever you kill that mob, so again, that's a holdover from the Legion client That's not actually going to make it into the main game They do a dam if they don't I mean they for a while they were not giving progress updates or not very many water Dev talk water coolers never was very very angry and now I look at the demo of a sort of a progress I find the game as you know, we can see where they're at. Yeah, and now people are angry again And I think but I think there's certain things like there's a difference between a bug and a design decision Right a design decision So Anyway, so as I was saying there's a difference between a bug and a design decision, so Yeah, like like something that's a bug is something like these items dropping where it's like I have like You know pretty upset about I know for me personally like we've all talked about it before like I Would I personally would rather just like have zero sharding and just like let them to the wolves and if it crashes It crashes because I mean that's how like we did that back then like that's a huge conversation And also I want to draw a distinction between a lot of people have been using phasing and sharding interchangeably I think basically the difference really is that the player Triggers phasing and sharding triggers on its own based off of the amount of people that are around the player So for an example phasing is you're halfway done with the quest line And you've saved the city and the city is no longer burning whereas in the beginning it was burning that is phasing Sharding is where everybody is in the burning city and you only see certain players because you're in a different shard Yeah, exactly phasing is usually used to tell stories and make sure that they're organic and people have the world evolving around them Sharding is done pretty much purely for server stability and also for player feel which also like war did make a huge post about this because Phasing was obviously the first. I'm sorry sharding. I'm doing it too. So it's okay War made a huge post about this today, and I think a lot of people are picking that apart Annie and go through that This is made by over a few hours ago Yeah, this was posted about four hours ago And he says as you've noticed the classic demo does have realm sharding This is to let as many people as possible experience it without technical issues such as server capacity or spawn density Getting in the way longer term We know how crucial it is to the classic experience for you to see your friends when you walk into stormwind Or when you're helping them on a quest you've already completed And there should only ever be one kazakh on a realm no matter how many people are waiting for him to spawn We're still looking at how we can best deliver an authentic classic experience at launch And in the weeks and months to follow both in terms of gameplay and community You won't see phasing which is tied to specific quests that don't exist in classic Or cross realm zones which combine multiple realms together in classic However realm sharding is one of the best tools We have to keep realms stable when hundreds of people are swarming the same initial few zones and killing the same few Months like they will be at the launch of classic So one thing that we want to break down here is that laura did not say that they will or they will not have phasing Sharding is a very useful tool And I think that's very important laura is a very established and seasoned community manager And I think that's just a point especially after all of the azureite debacles He's choosing his words very carefully. Yeah, it's very important to keep that in mind I think you know zero point kind of breaking it down He goes through he talks about he basically breaks the paragraphs into like Kind of the thought process behind sharding and like, you know, where it's good where it's bad what they've done with the philosophy Yeah, basically um So he talks about how He specifically says explicitly says that they understand how big How big the sense of community is how How the players obviously do not want sharding and that's something that they understand So whenever whenever I got off my stream, right, I just got to stream blizzcon Literally the first thing I did the first thing I did I got off I went and I talked to a couple blizzard employees and I asked them and I was like, hey, look This is not good. I just told them straight up. Like I I'm like, you know, I'm always going to be honest with you guys Like I'm just who I am right so I don't think this is good Are you guys, you know, what what do you guys know? Do you guys do you guys hear what people are shouting specifically the sharding specifically? Yeah, the sharding is not good and They said, yeah, you know, we hear we hear what people are saying Like they're big on feedback and they specifically said this in the first and second dev water coolers They said they are actually looking at feedback, right? Sometimes people feel like they're just, you know, shouting into it but They are giving the feedback. They are saying that people do not want sharding. I you know, I personally I went I was like, hey, sharding is bad. We can't do this. But um, they're like We we hear the feedback and our goal is to make the most authentic classic wow experience as we possibly can so You know, while they didn't say anything specifically To me I I can infer from that that they're actively looking for a solution Is sharding authentic vanilla wow experience? No I think that one thing that we can look at is that a lot of the things that blizzard has done So far to classic has all been in the vein of preserving the game in its original state, right? And you know, you can draw straws with like, you know, having it come out at 1.12 And a few other things like the uh, the graphical updates, etc But in terms of the core gameplay and the philosophy, I do really feel like they've got their finger on the pulse Of what the community wants and what the community feels is true to classic Absolutely and specifically with this post I look at it. It's broken down to three separate parts The first part is explicitly regarding the demo Um, it's funny. We kind of talked about the end of the day if they don't Imagine if they didn't have sharding for the demo and the demo was crashing 24 7 and people were complaining. Oh my god I paid $50 for a game that doesn't At the end of the day, it's a demo. They had 20 servers. They're not going to allocate the resources to this They went to an actual launched game So obviously they're going to take, you know, whatever shortcuts I don't even think there are shortcuts, but whatever measures they can to prevent server instability for a demo And that goes beyond just the sharding. I mean so many things that happen today But we'll we'll talk about that later The second part is the actual sharding itself And uh, again, I do think lord did not officially confirm that they would do sharding in the first place So maybe it was blown out of control a little bit Um, but I think the most important part is the third part and that is the viable alternatives As we just said sharding was not conducive to the classic experience. It was a part of vanilla The only issue I see Is that uh, there what is the alternative? Right? What is the alternative? I mean, we've seen servers that have implemented dynamic respawns and have been able to hold up a server population cap of like 14 000 plus But technically dynamic spawns are not vanilla either. It's a change. It's a change So it seems like whichever direction they take Ultimately, it will not be a vanilla experience But obviously we have to find out which alternative is most conducive most faithful to vanilla as close as possible And doesn't disrupt the overall player experience. Yeah, I mean I look at the demo I think this is the healthiest way to look at it This is a progress update and they're looking for feedback people people have been begging for something like this I think this is a very good thing. Um, if there are problems We will we will do our best to to communicate those problems to them I think you guys should talk about them on the forums and make of it whatever you guys can do And uh, I I know for fact that they'll listen Yeah, and and that's one more thing to to Make sure to I want to emphasize this right? um, let's be honest historically the classic community has been I think wrongfully uh, kind of had placed on them this like this this this Oh, these guys are they're they're aggressive they're this or that they're trying to attack people Which is not the case, right? You may have had a few bad apples here and there But what happens is whenever you have a good message And I mean, you know, but whenever you have a good message You have something that you want to say you want to say hey, we don't want sharding, right? You don't go say f this guy f that guy you say hey, this is this is something This is something that we don't want because of this This is the reason why and and you try and convey it in a reasonable manner So that the message doesn't get lost in translation You don't want to take away from the message by adding in Like extracurricular stuff we have this conversation a little bit ago And um, what would actually be the true vanilla lal experience of whenever the game comes out? Crash all of the servers crashing a lot of a lot of one day I'll be honest and this also goes into the conversation that I would have about the gates of aq I hope that they do the gates of aq opening event as I'm sure everybody else does And would I rather sharding I want those servers to crash exactly I run if it has to crash then that's what has to happen I would rather have them crash than have sharding. Absolutely. That's where I'm at Crash was underrated, dude. It's underrated. That's awesome. It's a great game time. I love it, dude I have so many one-day credits on my account. I can show you guys. I can show you guys That's so many one-day credits on my account But do you think Blizzard as a company would want to have a game that crashes? Well, if there's an opportunity to convey that to them then it's okay Yeah, I love it. They just did it two months ago I mean this is I remember Diablo 3. I mean that was obviously bad and the thing is that yes, obviously the launch I think classic one was going to be the one most anticipated games in probably gaming history. I mean really, I mean it's like Wow, like defined an entire generation that defined an entire genre Like it's one of the most massive games in the entire world. It's like one of the only games It's like currently like being played in this current that's in like the video game hall of fame It's a very very long game Hundreds of probably at this point of millions of people have played it and more have heard about it The first day if none of the servers go down Yeah, I'll see it. I'll say it if none of the servers go down. I'll buy every storm out in the game Okay, yeah, I don't think uh I just think trying to Wait, then you say that for if classic was made Well, we're moving the goalpost What I'm trying to say is uh basically if They're trying to put in all this extra stuff to kind of prevent the service from crashing I understand this 2018 blizzard like yeah I don't care. I honestly just don't care like uh, I get that, you know You're paying for this and they want to have a good look and everything works and it's all fine and dandy but like I Like I don't want to have something in the game That takes away from the game experience, right? Like if I'm not playing the game, guess what? It's been an experience It is what it is and Okay, let's say worst-case scenario Let's say worst-case scenario They put sharding in at launch to kind of for a week or something like that Yeah, I was thinking the same maybe realistically that would be the best way to have a softer start I'm hoping that they find another solution, right? But let's say let's say even if they do something like that, right even if they do something like that I don't like that But at what point does it stop? Where did they cut it off? Like it how how calculated it's gonna be, you know Everyone has these very and we talked about this on the last class cast I think or at some point everyone has these very fond memories Vanilla wow that were sort of bugs and inconveniences, you know the the zlgarab You know the plague thing and there's all sorts of events like this. I think sort of a rocky Zero sharding zero phasing classic well launch a couple months down the road would be a It would be a memorable classic wow event, right? Like it would be an event of the game, right? Well, I think even with sharding honestly This will probably still crash So why haven't yeah, why haven't you like it's still gonna crash again? I think we go ahead. Sorry. I'm just meaning no problem I think the biggest thing for blizzard right now Is to explore alternatives like the most important thing We have the q&a tomorrow and obviously we'll get more Clarification on this post today and a lot of other things But explore a lot of alternatives because especially in the classic community, you know the sharding is like it's like a bad word Like it's the s word. It's it's blasphemy, you know, like of all the things to change I mean I'd rather them have lfr than sharding, you know to be honest It ruins the immersion like imagine walking the iron forge your friends right there But you can't see I'm like destroys the game Um, I definitely exploring the alternatives I mean and again, we've seen other alternatives work Lower the server caps if you have to to blizz like numbers dynamic spawns if you need them Increase server quantity and yeah, that might be more expensive You might have to worry about merges down the line But if I were to ask everybody right now in chat, what would you prefer sharding or server merges? You know six months from now 12 months from now I mean, what would the answer be? I think I think we all are Just let me keep my hand I don't want this one to happen I'm very very protective of my name There's actually a really good post today on the forums I've seen this idea thrown around before but credit to the guy who posted it I can't remember his name The idea of creating kind of Pre-defined server clusters like I think the example he gave was Illidan one, Illidan two, Illidan three, Illidan four So players rolling on those servers in advance have some idea that okay These servers are kind of merged in the sense that They're going to be merged Yeah, exactly. So you can save your name That was great Fantastic Okay, so if a game is not good If a game is not good, if a game is bad It doesn't mean every idea in the game is bad I was just joking Which means more ideas are bad than not It was fantastic. I'm playing it right now actually It was Metapanda by the way It looks like you wrote that post But yeah, the idea of you can reserve your name on any one of those servers But they share a naming database And if God forbid down the line The servers depopulate You just merge them all together and then That's pretty much that How do you feel about server population? I mean personally I prefer Blizz like 2500 to 3000 something along those lines Just preserve the community Obviously we've played on much larger servers before It's a different experience But I think when it comes to issues like Sharding in particular, server community At the end of the day Asking for more population To do with kind of be contradictory to the no changes thing So... Yeah, I mean like I've said this before You gotta be able to have this discussion You say no changes because of no changes Or do you say no changes because of reason Then it opens up the floodgates That's what I'm scared of Sure, we can't be scared to open up the floodgates I think if you believe this You gotta come out and say like Hey look, this is why I believe this And you gotta back it up And the dogma is being able to articulate Why you feel the way you feel It's like... I don't want to have Extra population or whatever Because the original world was not designed to have How are many people running through Without dynamic response Without sharding Without whatever Versus no changes And that's from the beginning I've always kind of thought that I think we all need to do that It's a little bit more effective when trying to make a point Or bring people to your side Or communicate with Blizzard and give feedback It's a much more nuanced position to have But it's also a lot more difficult to articulate to people On a more wholesale level And also one thing that's interesting about that Is I think we should probably talk about progressive itemization Because in that circumstance Changes is no changes And no changes is changes So recently TIPS has made a really good video About progressive itemization And you want to kind of go through The concerns that you had with that And how it would kind of change the progression And the different contexts of game Absolutely So in Vanilla WoW, back in the day Items were not necessarily static Over time certain items that existed At the start of the game right at launch Had their staffs changed Some experienced total overhauls And some items were added later on Into the game on the loot tables Of pre-existing bosses So for example in Strathom At launch, but 12 months later All of a sudden, you know, I think KineMaster Willy is dropping Dinosperm Necklace And that's a very, very good neck You compared it to the Necklace from Magnus Exactly, the Fire Lord And I said in Validates It's very competitive with it Fire Lord is a little bit better But it definitely decreases the desire To go into Molten Core and try to farm that neck piece And essentially what it does It skews progression entirely With items that are dropping from dungeons That are essentially better than some things That drop all the way through to A.Q. To Nex Rammus sometimes PvP gear especially gets updated later on In Vanilla to have better stats The PvP 100 weapons for Warriors The rank 14 weapons are pretty much Bists all the way through to Nex You have a lot of situations where items They get updated later and validate the content That comes with the release of the game And basically what Some servers like Nostrip The past is they've kind of Followed that chain or Partially followed that chain of progression Where the items on launch are as they were Back in Vanilla when they launched And over time they include the new items Into the game the same way that Blizzard Did back in the day so as to not invalidate The previous content And is that kind of how you'd like to see Blizzard Implement them in Classic? Absolutely, if Blizzard came out today and said We're doing Nost, but with Blizzard support Low paying, high uptime Regional servers, and maybe some Small discrepancies here and there I'd sign off. So real quick Not screwed up the progressivization Like pretty hard. I think almost everybody does Because it's so hard to figure out Who knows even if Blizzard has The information. Right, and I think With progressive itemization I think this is something that Is, it's not It's not really explained in depth Enough, right? There's different parts to Progressive itemization When items are released, when items are taken out of the game When item stats are changed, there's different parts To it, right? It's not simply An item getting buffed or nerfed or whatever Throughout the course of the game Whenever items are added, we've talked about Titanic Leggings before So items were changed because of spell spells There were some wands that had physical damage on them They were changed later on to have like Magical damage on them, stuff like that too So, I mean, we know We know the Titanic Leggings thing I'll go ahead and go into it What the Titanic Leggings are They're plate leggings 55, blacksmithing recipe Epic world drop, BOE Right, so what happens is These are added in patch 1.10 And these are so good That they're basically the Best-in-slot plate DPS pants They got two crit ahead and about 30 strength And They're not replaced by anything other than The like plates out of Nax That I believe are off of Huygan Or like plates, if you want to go with like a leather If you're going to wear leather and go with like an agility build Trying to stack critter or whatever The apocalypse leggings off of 4 horsemen So there's 2 Nax items that are better So this item is in the game So we're talking about item release When it comes to progressive itemization 1.10 patch, this was the dungeon set 2 patch The tier 0.5 So When we're talking about this This is an item that can't be in from the beginning of the game If you had it in from the beginning of the game All of a sudden you have your this until the end of the game Available to players right off the bat And it changes the meta It changes the meta, it changes the difficulty of the raids Because players are going to have better gear Earlier on So that side of progressive itemization Talking about item release Is different than Updating the stats and what not So kind of using nostalgia as an example Nostalgia screwed up The tier 2 itemization So the tier 2 That was released Let's take the paladin gear for example The paladin gear had spell power stats on it In the 1.6 patch So 1.6 Blackwing Lair comes out, tier 2 is not introduced But reintroduced into the game I'll get into that later But tier 2 is reintroduced into the game With healing stats It's like a pvp healing set In retail vanilla, but on nostalgia It had the 1.9 stats So this is a case of Summonization where Whenever items get changed or buffed Or whatever So there's that Everybody seems to have been really happy with Nost Yet There were big quote glaring issues Now That's something that people would consider a glaring issue now But that's something that was not really the case there I think that's not as bad I personally want to see it updated in 1.9 Or what would be new So I personally want to see that But I don't think it's as big of a deal Of having the item Like the leg plates, the titanic leg games Come out from the beginning of the game You see what I'm saying? So another thing, one more thing One more part of progressive itemization The tier 2 gear was available In MC Until I think the 1.3 patch And in 1.4 they removed it So not only was it available And again let's use paladins for example You took the election rags and you took it The head from 1.6, that's true Should the tier 2 gear be available in molten cores So I'm saying not Of course not And now as a paladin I would love that Because not only was the tier 2 gear available early on It was a straight up ret set Like they had a chance on crit There was like a 20% chance that when it was a crit You got like a 300 holy damage proc Like it was insane, it was an insane ret paladin set But That's the other side of progressive itemization Are we going to do true progressive itemization Where the judgment gear is there Where you have all these ret stats From 1.2, 1.3 and then all of a sudden You have your full judgment set Before the 1.6 patch when your BWL comes out And now we're talking about all this In terms of patch by patch progressive Content release Who knows if they're going to do phase content release Which is a different thing We'll talk about that later But progressive itemization has so many different parts to it That it's not one thing I think we talk about progressive itemization as One thing, way too much It's not one thing Yeah, there's a huge spectrum And I've always actually been of the perspective Until I saw TIPS video That I didn't really care about progressive itemization And I thought it was just like something That was kind of irrelevant That people that were just like super purists were concerned about But then whenever TIPS made so many comparisons With like the Diana's pearl necklace And also the Titanic like plates I think there was a helmet there too It wasn't even replaced by nefarion gear That was a blue item Like these things right here are basically something That mirrors what we see right now in the current game What is the state of affairs If people went into molten core Or they went into BWL And they ended up not replacing the gear That they got out of these very difficult raids Especially getting 40 people together Were all the same times No, it's an F Yeah, it's just going to go back And forth, it should be fine To me like I feel like that's obviously very bad for the game And then also like The Titanic like plates example What happens with that is that Let's say you're able to get Titanic like plates And there are six pieces that you can get From the field marshal set Well now there's only really five So you just diminish the Amount of power growth that a player Can have through doing the field marshal grind By like what 15 or 12% Or something like that And I mean obviously grand marshal is more But you know most people probably aren't Going to be able to get to there And the more things that you take away The more reasons people have To not kind of pursue content And I think that there should always be a direction Of pursuing higher And more challenging content And the issue with these pieces of gear Is they function in the same way That current wiles to catch up gear works Is that it ends up removing content From the game and not adding it Yeah, I agree 100% That's a big one Like I think if you ask a lot of people Like it impacts so many elements Of the game, how to incentivize content The progression curve at the end game The difficulty of the raids That's definitely a big one That's definitely one we hope to talk about A lot tomorrow with the class They have to do it It's really bad if they don't It is very bad Yeah that's something I 100% expect to hear about It's such a big project man Like they're retrofitting 112 Off of 7.3.5 And worrying about 1.1 itemization This is such an enormous project And they have to think of all this stuff Very detailed minds Did we know what the panel is going to talk about tomorrow? They basically just said it's a classic panel That's it Yeah that's basically it And real quick guys Because we don't have our normal setup Or whatever I asked Andy to come help us out To kind of do Q&A and stuff here in a little bit So again Tweet questions at us That's going to be the best way for us To keep up with it when I'm not at my computer Doing my stuff So just use the hashtag classic cast And I will read them and Try to add also any fuchsia too If you have a recorder Yeah you can tag me to make it easier Just so it'll make it easier for us To be able to find these things What do you guys think about the collector's edition? I think it'd be cool I mean I don't really Do you think there should be any sort of rewards to it? So what if they had a collector's edition And the rewards from the collector's edition And mirrored the rewards from the collector's edition I think they should be different You really think they should be different? I think they should be different The reason why I think it should be different Is to me somebody who has a collector's edition And you and Andy are a retail wow Like you guys are collectors You guys are You do your transmog You do your treatments and stuff like that I'm personally not so big on that But like when you guys see somebody And they have their Diablo pad Or whatever It's like what the frick Like that's something so like It's like sacred Oh yeah we saw it the other day It was crazy Yeah it's crazy So like and even I'm like that You know as somebody who's not super into that I think they should leave that the way it is If they want to do a collector's edition I think that's cool that's fine But I think they should They just have it be something else I agree I would prefer nothing in game Maybe something like a physical copy of like You know the old What did they used to give you The old strategy guide The Brady game strategy guide I still have my Yeah something like that Something more physical I think that would also be Like a little bit more retro Kind of going back to the Old classic theme You know bringing it back What did the classic collector's edition Not exist at the time I mean do you think some people Might have liked to have those Pets from back then I think so But I think you could say the same thing About like a lot of other things You know bringing back a lot of other stuff That people find very exclusive today I don't know I just Again like you said it's sacred Like saying the Diablo pad Stuff like that Like corrupted Ashbringer even for example Like stuff like that That's just no longer attainable Kind of preserved status I'm going to disagree I actually think those initial Those initial collector's edition Rewards are perfect for this As long as they don't carry over To your retail account Yeah this is a conversation We have all the time on my stream And probably with you guys too Should they let Transmog go back And forth Absolutely not You can get corrupted Ashbringer Guys you're just asking that Because you want to get the items Man like it's not going to do that You're not going to get a corrupted Ashbringer by the way Well the thing is it's like You're going to have some hunter Get the corrupted Ashbringer Because he wants it on his mobile Here's the thing Here's the thing If you're someone that's concerned About that and asking that question You're not the guy Who's ever going to get a corrupted Ashbringer Exactly You're not going to be in this Situation But things easier like chromatic sword For example that drops off With that basket That way it's chromatic sword It's back into the game It's back in Oh it's back in But there are other items Other items It is There's a dwarf hunter On Kelthusod They got a corrupted Ashbringer I was doing nax At the end of Burning Crusade I was doing nax Farm runs And a hunter got the corrupted Ashbringer in the raid I was saying it just Showed me nuts dude I lost the role To the paladin man I was mad It's paladin play Of course Probably Dude I was so upset about that That was the last sign That was the last sign Yeah that's a mistake I didn't have to learn twice I don't know man So like obviously That kind of stuff Is kind of common sense I feel like any of those Concerns are really Kind of whatever But I feel like If they're going to bring back Classic wow I think they should bring back The original Blackquisition pets In the same way that The prestige is preserved With like corrupted Ashbringer Like if you see somebody On live servers With corrupted Ashbringer Now Versus classic Whenever the nax is out I feel like there's still Going to be that level Of prestige there Now with G There were a couple TCG items Where are you with those Nope they were not TCG was added in green per se I thought there were a couple Things in 1.12 Is that not true I really don't think so I don't know enough about TCG I really think that was added I will default to you Okay yeah you probably Know more than I do Yeah I think I think with all that stuff I don't know It's not To me that collector's edition Stuff is not that big Of a deal for me to Like spurg out about it Whatever they do If they want to add If they want to do the same Rewards I've never really thought that That's like I'm really back into it I don't care about it I never thought it was prestigious Yeah even like I think it's cool now I did not think it was cool then I'm still kind of like But specifically with vanilla Collector's edition stuff Yeah vanilla stuff You've been playing this game Since then That's what's crazy about Not the item It's the fact that you know That they've been playing Since the beginning And they have something But I just don't really care For cosmetic stuff Like personally I'm just kind of like Whatever Like I said I'm not a big collector I don't do transmog that much I don't I freaking 70 mounts in retail Yeah I actually do Yeah it's almost all of them Yeah it's almost all of them The only mount Like there's very few times In retail where I've got Like I got a Blizzard bear I have a BlizzCon 2008 BlizzCon Blizzard bear And that's like The coolest thing But like other than that I have that I got a Baron death charger That's Those are the only two mounts That I can think of That I was like This is cool Barons I have a CG tiger I do want to bring it back To what we saw today And let's talk about what we saw today Yeah let's bring it back How optimistic are you guys That Classic WoW will be Will be a vanilla WoW After what we've seen today So comparing Comparing Okay So this is what we've got to look at Right Are we going to compare it To vanilla WoW Or are we going to compare it To how close to the products Are we going to vanilla WoW Vanilla Right Are they going to make Changes that will fundamentally Change What the vanilla WoW Gameplay experience was Not intentionally I don't I think honestly Everything they've told us so far If you go back to every single post They've made themselves Like a thousand percent clear They're trying to preserve The authentic vanilla experience They're doing what they can They have said that Yeah they're doing what they can To get there The issue is As Espen pointed out Some things are a lot more Complicated than we might think And the other issue Is down porting the game From the 735 client As we've seen in the demo Some things have slipped through The cracks possibly Some things they just You know might not have Gone to yet But I would totally expect Once the alpha comes out Even in the beta Things are slipping through The cracks somebody finds out Oh my God You know there's this little Small thing you know The pet pathing is Legion pet pathing It should be you know Vanilla pet pathing And hopefully you know The onus is going to be on us To report those issues And Blizzard hopefully Retroactively you know Fixes all those problems Yeah I mean we've been Asking for status updates For a very long time They gave us one And we can play it And we can give feedback I'm very very happy with this Of course there are problems But this is a dream situation What we have right now I'm very very happy with With today So here's the thing And kind of bringing both Your guys points together We got two water cooler updates Right and so far everything That they have said It turns out yeah It all sounds good Right it all sounds good The concern is some of the Things that people have Seen in the demo But I don't think Like I said is it A design thing or is it a bug Right like the crit thing The secondary status that's A bug right that's something I wouldn't even Like bring it up Hey this is happening Right okay thanks We figured it out we'll fix it Right boom problem solved First one with things First one with things Yeah boom problem solved Right like stuff like that Problem solved Those things are bugs But whenever it comes to Design type stuff That's where you know Hey we don't like sharding And this is why They're certainly looking At feedback I think that I think that there's Some things in the demo That we just flat out can't see Right they might have Not even touched Let's talk a little bit About the sandbox stuff Right because we got Some screenshots and People send us some screenshots We made some videos And talked about them before In the sandbox stuff One of the things that Was looked at is like You know judgment helm You know tier two Tier two paladin helm Oh it was like the 1.9 stats right If they just have a demo In the sandbox it's just On the demo client for 15 to 19 Then that's something That they may have not Even looked at yet You know like They could just be They're not thinking about The judgment helm They're not thinking about The judgment helm They're not thinking about Any of that They're thinking about Like hey let's get this 15 to 19 thing out so we Can push something out to them And kind of start to get Feedback Start to open that line Of communication with the Player base So we need to take Advantage of that Like we need to We need to They're trying to They're trying to say Hey here give us some Feedback so like We need to Just do it the right way That's the most important Thing otherwise You have this freakin Yes Exactly Cause then Like If you go wild And you act like A crazy person They're going to treat You like a crazy person And you know What you do to crazy people You do just enough To make sure they Don't go off the deep end And then you ignore them So that's what's Going to happen If you act like A jackass You're going to be treated Like a jackass And obviously Like at this point I think that People need to come Together and make sure That the things That we see on the demo The sharding The Item stuff We give feedback And we say This isn't how it was And we want it to Be back the same way As it was And I think that Obviously Everything that we've seen So far It seems like Blizzard Is responding to Our feedback And by the way You were right About the release date October 2006 No And Bernie Oh the TC items Yes I was right About TC items Oh wow Okay 1.12 Alright I thought so Okay anyway Yeah I don't remember that at all So Speaking of technical things Since you guys have played a lot I'm not sure how it was On private servers But what about Things like getting stuck While looting Like loot bug Things like that Since it's coming From the legion client That's probably not Flavor Those are flavor bugs Yeah And those things Will probably not be there And how do you guys Build up that I wish it was there Cause it's just like flavor bugs Like you said Like moonwalking Moonwalking Somebody said You found out Moonwalk No Some guy DC While we were dueling It looked like it was moonwalking Yeah no I was trying to moonwalk Like it's just I don't know Are you guys really That tore up It's like It's like I don't have salt On my food That's how it feels My food doesn't have Salt on it That's how I wish I had more salt I think wall jumping Is a little bit more Like a core thing of Vanilla than moonwalking Right It was a great way to kill time It really was And people were trying To get up to the top On top of the iron forge bank And then like the red pot pillars Like yeah that was cool And obviously It's not something That really makes the game better And in a lot of ways It kind of makes the game worse It makes the game show It's flaws Of course But also Like we want the game For what it is And if it's possible For Blizzard to add in Some of those things That add flavor That don't necessarily ruin the game I think that's absolutely Something that they should do And in terms of like Things that were bugs I think there are a lot of things That were borderline bugs And I think the best example of this Is cocoon pre-nerve How do you guys feel About cocoon pre-nerve? Should it be released pre-nerve Or post-nerve? Pre-nerve absolutely Absolutely And I think a lot of the Theory crafters out there Might suggest it too Apparently so Back in vanilla obviously There wasn't the same level Of theory-crafting, sophistication Knowledge of itemization That we have today Just for fun Just for fun So much of that stuff Goes off of like private server stuff Which like Things just like don't work If it doesn't work They can always, you know, nerf it But just for fun You throw it out There, see how people do Yeah, I mean Do me like I mean Whatever, right But like Wasn't part of the problem Of cocoon is Sometimes there was like a chance That a tentacle would spawn on the wall And then it would just wipe Remember I didn't do it I didn't do it I didn't do it I didn't do it But that's what I really like A tentacle could spawn on the wall And then you can't kill it And then you wipe I will say I have a friend Who progressed on cocoon Pre-nerf And he says Given a couple weeks He really feels like He could have done it But who knows This is 15 years You know You also have 10 years Of theory-crafting I feel like If they brought out cocoon People Some guilt would kill it And maybe I'm wrong I don't know I didn't do it Back then either So I don't know But it seems like Something that they should at least try To see what happens And I think there's a lot of these other events Right That happened in Penelow Wow That were like These iconic events I think the most One of the ones That everybody knows about There were studies done about it Was the blood plague That was a debuff That you're able to get And I believe ZFG Right And it was used to test About how people would respond To some sort of like A disease outbreak And I think A lesser known example But also a very High-profile example Is the Talisman A binding shark Which was a legendary necklace That was able to tear off from the gar And it dropped for one guy His name was Noctis Noctis from Gilnerft And Noctin from Nerf And Noctin from Nerf And it was this weird necklace That actually had an effect Didn't it? It was in front It was lightning shield From the shamans It was the same thing Really the lightning shield Okay How do you guys Where do you guys stand On that kind of stuff That'd be awesome I mean It's something that It would be cool To have that kind of person That could get it But at the same time Like whatever What do you think about the blood play Do you think that should happen No I think that all of that stuff Be memes of the past That's what makes them special Yeah That's the thing I think it'd be cool Because I just I really wanted the idea I liked the idea Of being able to That could be me That I could have like 24 Fire and nature resistance Necklace Because the necklace Isn't that good It's like 8 strength 13 stamina 24 fire 24 nature resist But that's like Best in slot Like late game PvP neck So like that's That's the only reason Like I could get that But in reality Like Just let it go Another thing This is very controversial Battleground wall jumps Things like that Oh yeah You could get out of the Arathi basin gate Ahead of time There's the one To get into the The Alliance base Naltruck Valley I think you gotta Get rid of that stuff Obviously People get reported for it People get reported for it And you get Suspended for it That's the big one Yeah We need to talk about that A little bit But yeah People would get reported For doing the Jumps I told them Remember this Because people would do the jumps And then they would go And they would watch The people do them And all of a sudden This guy You see You're like The guy sitting on top Of the roof Like he goes And he sits on top Of the Not the roof Of the base But like He'll do Some kind of Mirror to get In every sense I don't remember this What happened all the time I feel like that's a mouse trap Like Why put a mouse trap In here I think that Well, they didn't intentionally do it It wasn't Yeah, it wasn't a purpose It wasn't a purpose It was just part of the wall jumps I used to do them all And I think the only people I've done them all And I've won battlegrounds Because of them Back in the day I feel like the only people Defending these things are people That use them Currently on private servers To their advantage Well, here's an example And this is a current example There's a point We've been twin peaks In the current game And you can leap up there To where you can get past The invisible wall And you can just run away With the flag And nobody can ever hit you Because there's a giant open field So all you need to do Is get your flag carrier Up there And then you've basically Won the game Because there's no way That anybody can get To your flag carrier He can't take any damage And so you win one cap And then that's it Yeah It's ridiculous And so obviously This should not be in the game I agree Bugs that allow you They give you a competitive advantage I don't think should be in the game Especially if boys Are just going to punish Players for them Now this is something That everybody has allowed To exploit I think probably the biggest Gray area there Is I think it was the mobs In black rock depths That were able to Mind control To give yourself the Fire resistance Fire resistance And yeah Up for our shields So it was just The entrance at BRS The point here Is that there is a very Very fine line Between clever use Of game mechanics And exporting I feel like jumping On top of a map And making yourself unhittable Whenever you're getting the flag In a competitive match Is an exploit And mind controlling a mob To give yourself a fire resistance buff Is clever use Of game mechanics And I think the boys Are probably going to do A very good job In terms of navigating What's fair And what's not Because nobody has fun Whenever a game's not fair Yeah I think specifically With the wall jumping And bg's I'm I never ranked super high Or anything like that I totally defer to the rankers But it seems like people That I've talked to That are super high You know going hardcore They seem to be very Oak-like They like it They raise the skill cap They say yeah They raise the skill cap It's because they want To steamroll people I've won six minute abes I've won like Seven minute, five minute Whatever war songs Like I've done that Right The reason why they wanted Is because they just want To steamroll And they just want That's why it's there Right But that's why That's not why it's there That's why they want it there It creates a very contrived Game point Yeah Where like now They're not beating you Because they're better than you They're beating you because They're outmeaning Well here's what happens Right is like Let's say in current You've got two clown teams That both have a demon hunter That's using the fell strike Or the fell jump Over and over To try to get the right pixel That you need to jump on to So we can run away From everybody forever Like you just have 20 people Clowning around next to a rock Instead of trying to play the game It's a stupid way To play the game Yeah And to a certain extent Like Blizzard obviously should try To make sure that the game doesn't go Some kind of contrived route Of using some sort of an exploit And if you want to use that As some sort of an argument For a skill cap You can have that conversation But I don't necessarily think That it's good gameplay And I think the intent I do think it's a real argument But I don't think it's a good game point But I think that the argument That supersedes that Is an intended game point And I don't think this is an example Of Blizzard Like if you cannot attack The flying carrier That is a problem That is a problem Yeah There's ways in Warsaw and Vanilla That you could wall jump on the corner So you have a graveyard here You go in here There's the corner in here That goes into the building You've seen this Where you can wall jump And people wall jump And they go like halfway up Right And then you can't touch them That guy's not better than you That guy's cheating And sometimes these rankers I'm not generalizing all rankers here Right What I'm saying is There are times where it's like As a ranker People are like oh that's good Increase the skill cap I get one faster or whatever But you're not winning Because you're better than What makes everybody have to do it And that's another issue Because you're not playing The game of that Well once you have like this Certain thing to where Like everybody needs to be This class Everybody needs to be You know use this method Or whatever Again I can go into RPGs Again Demon hunter tanks Especially in Legion Were by far and away The best tanks I do not think that is Good game design And obviously we don't want To change the game design To vanilla But still the same philosophy Should be there That demon hunter tanks Being infinitely better Than every single other tank Does not necessarily make The game better Because it forces everyone To play in a certain way And this is what I'm saying With the wall jumping Is that it forces you If you want to be competitive Whenever you're playing These battlegrounds You need to perform these actions Because these are game breaking Actions Both teams need to take advantage Of them And that's why I don't think They should be in the game Well here's another thing You can get reported for it And you get suspended for it In vanilla Right So you know what Like if you want to Leave it in the game And you want to risk Doing that to win some games And you get yourself a 24 hour And you just kill your rank For the week Like let's say you Let's say you lose it On Saturday You got double Double war song weekend Double honor weekend On war song And then you Just lost 24 hours You lost 24 hours Or you could have been ranking In war song and getting Double honor I mean okay Just after yourself Like it doesn't make sense Like what do you think You know Yeah I think that Could happen But also as I said It's like a mousetrap Like why put a mousetrap In the game Why have something It's like let's say This mob you get banned Like why would you Even have the mob in the game That's true I just I don't know I don't really see the purpose On it I think that you should At certain points Like kind of expect players To be stupid And to plan around them I agree What about Going back to the TCG thing I've actually been thinking About it since you brought it up But what do you think TCG Rules I mean They were in vanilla Right So the first The first one came out In October 2006 And the second one came out In April 2007 So that means there was only one That was out during vanilla wow So I think that Well I mean They're not going to reintroduce The cards So Yeah I mean In my mind And this is maybe a bit I don't know if you guys Will agree with this The old TCG game Where you could get The items in game And get mouths Whatever the items were That was essentially The precursor to an in-game Cap shop I think also Well I don't know who boxes Yeah I don't know who boxes Everyone can agree on this Is it Who gives a fuck Like that's a It's the most Yeah I'm not even concerned About it The most meaningless detail That nobody cares about They're not going to reprint The cards They're not going to allow you To regain the codes on a classic Okay It's not going to have There's no way So what if they have an In-game classic wow Cap shop Where they sell these original Items We think about that No thank you I just I think we're good I think we're good Hi I don't even Like that's something that's I don't know I just I don't even want to I don't even want to mention that You guys want to take the question From the secretary Yeah let's do it So we are running a little Short on time So guys we're going to Go ahead and move over To do some questions I asked Annie to come Help us out Because we don't have The normal PC setup There's so much more That goes on behind the scenes With classic casts Than just turning on The camera and going And that's kind of What we're doing here So Annie came To kind of help us out You guys wanted to Make sure you put Hashtag classic cast That's what she's going to be Searching and she's going to Be asking some questions On Twitter We'll probably be taking More questions from Twitter Than chat Yeah so Yeah definitely That's more of a I'm going Alright we've got One question here Okay Do you believe that After the success of Classic that they'll Implement PC Or even rough As progressive from The vanilla servers That presupposes The success of classic If the classic is Successful Classic in the know Well here's what I think they should do And this is Like this conversation Comes up a lot What I think they should do This seems to be the Best solution Is they will Allow players to Transfer their characters Over Now in transferring Does that character Get deleted That's a big conversation To have And I think we Go back and forth About that for hours But your character Is moved one way Or another From the vanilla Server to a 2.0 server That does not And you know You have like The pre-expansion hype The expansion goes Live at a certain point In time And maybe a month Or so after the Expansion goes live They introduce a New fresh vanilla server I feel like that would Be perfect I agree No I think it's For the solution Similar Sorry go on No no please please I was going to say My ideal scenario Is actually How it happened back In the day But when vanilla I think it's A little bit different From what you said The original classic And at the same time They offer a fresh Vanilla server I From my perspective I feel like the people Who want to stay in vanilla Wow Should have the privilege To be able to Stay in vanilla Well yeah I mean That's what they Want to do I think that's What they should Be able to do I feel like It could be Very upsetting Or frustrating Or it could also Give people a sense Of futility Right To spend a year Developing a character Right First into A level 60 Or a level 70 Area And I think some people Do get something Really good about Like the completionist Element of the game Getting the full tier 3 Getting your Winnerspring cross saver Getting your High war order Or grand marshal I don't think Players should be Forced into it Right But one I guess middle ground That maybe we could Come to is that I think that Maybe if you do Move your character From the burning Crusade server Okay See And that's The hour long Conversation Yeah So You have to hard Commit into TBC Like It's Yeah It's a Four year down the line Yeah It's the conversation We're going to Literally talk about this For the entirety of the Last year In two years We're going to talk About this all the time Yeah Day two of Classic launch Yeah Well What's Classic PC Relating to TBC server With Full T3 Or you know Late game vanilla characters Is Your One to fifty eight experience There's no one there There's no There's no linen cloth In the auction house There's no silk cloth In the auction house You know So that The early game economy And those items They're not existing Unless people are Just going on And farming them At max level It's not A natural One to seventy Fully healthy Server That problem Is what you're talking about I think Wherever you are When At the two year Finality Of the first Classic server You should just Move on to TBC Just as it was back in the day So you will have The levels as well I think that you're right About that But I also think That one thing That could counter that Is some of the Added elements Of recovery And classes Generally playing Better and being More effective People just Making characters Well whenever 2.0 is out Leveling At recovery Warlocks For example Many classes I feel Well Whatever Right And it gives people A reason Now are you right To an extent Yeah I think so But I think people Who are leveling up And want to do Burning Crusade content Will be Incentivized To move over To Burning Crusade servers Even if Let's say They're only level 37 Because their character Is on 2.0 Client Then the 1.12 Client Right sure I see a point there With all those Old maps Basically can be Non-existent But at the same time Not everyone Would necessarily Move their character Maybe they Would want to Start fresh as well Maybe some people Want to keep The level 16 So it does Give that option As well They could make it A window Right And so The window would be For Burning Crusade events Then Burning Crusade Would come out And server transfers Would be closed And then people Who wanted to come On Burning Crusade Would have to level Naturally And I think that would be A good middle ground To reach I feel like there's a lot Ways for Hoyser To deal with it But I think the first Thing they should do Is deal with Classic Make that successful Or do their best To make it successful And then If it's successful Look into the Viability of a Burning Crusade server Absolutely one step at a time Yeah What do you got next A? Next question Should Blizzard Help guide players To what specs are viable? For example Red Alex didn't exist To lack of taunt Or crusader strike Sounds like Calvinism of A No, no, no No, no, no I think They should have to look up Classic web videos And streams to find out If they want to know That's what they should do Yeah, I mean Just play the game Right Just play the game Just play the game There should be Watch my videos Could they give you Extra information on the website? I don't know That could be a conversation But should there be Anything in-game That tells you Don't play a prop paladin? No What? No, no There's enough Futurama We're like They're watching Like a Goosebumps Style of the book As a movie Right And it's like Okay audience Like what do you want to Happen And it's like Yes or no And it's like No, no, no You don't want that in here You think you do But It's just like a whole thing Like There's nothing to be said For that innocence Of not knowing what's good And just genuinely having fun Let me ask you guys this If you could just Wipe your memory of vanilla And play classic For the first time Would you do it In a heartbeat I would do it Did you play it for the first time? Absolutely First time Maybe one Do it in a heartbeat Do it in a dumpster People Yeah Yeah The experience Of saying Like it won't be Like now Because things are so interconnected You're not going to have The mystique of You know Can I actually Fish Ashbringer out of You know The water Underneath the bridge In between Eastern and western Plague lands So you're not It's not going to happen If the bun Could take you back I guess Yeah If I could go back in time And re-experience it In all the different ways Yes, of course Absolutely But it's obviously Not really possible To do that So the next best thing In my opinion Would just be to Dominate Yeah, dude I mean Like Classic wow Is going to be much different Than vanilla Just by the nature Of how technology And interconnectedness Has evolved And that's something That we can't really Do anything about Yeah Absolutely There's actually a really good Question here How do you guys feel About the debuff limit That's on the demo right now Well, we don't know What the true limit is Right I thought I read a post today On the Classic Sembran I didn't really like How deep they got Into a bit Seemed like 16 debuff slots Confirmed Based on the map done So I played the demo For like 15 or 20 minutes This morning I was in a Dead Minds group Like an Outer Dead Minds group I had 10 people And First thing I noticed Okay, debuffs are private So you can only see Your debuffs You can't see Anyone else's debuffs That's weird I also This is not a confirmation I don't know It sounds like it's been Confirmed to be 16 That is a holdover Again From 70.3 I agree Because Yes You are not able To see other people's debuffs Unless you have something enabled That's not possible to enable Unless you have an additional Like amount of filters And it's like an add-on To let you see other debuffs It's like really stupid That there it is That was reviewed in Legion Oh, look Let me tell you Blizzard should have known Damn well That we were going to Vanilla Brain enough To look into something Like that That's like something That was discussed Our first thing We're checking debuffs They should have known Like we're going to look at that It's something that's iconic And the reason why it's so important And same with 8 debuff slots Is if you have 8 debuff slots You have to decide Who gets to put buffs on the bones Right So you have Thunder Armor Curse of Elements I forgot what the other ones were But it allows you To make a certain choice If you have 16 debuff slots Then that makes certain specs Like Shadow Priest Like Warlocks More viable And those things do change The way the game gets played And it's not like this Is a complete involvement thing Now my understanding Was that the debuff slot limit Was more of a technical limitation You were right More of a technical limitation Than into the gameplay My perspective on this Is that I think that They will probably just release With 16 debuff slots But if they only had it with 8 And then whenever the patch That I think it was for BWL Maybe it was BWL Or ZG I knew it was ZG For some reason I thought it was BWL The last patch that you had Was BWL I think the reason You're actually right We talked with John Staths And Mark Curran And Kevin Jordan On Classcast They confirmed it was not intentional It was a hardware Or just a design limitation That's what we confirmed From 8 to 16 But we also talked to them And said We balanced the raids Around the debuff slots Exactly The reason why The debuff slots They're going to have To cut you off Sorry Yeah They had to balance around them The reason why they were there Is much less important Yeah Sorry And to add to that I was going to say it's like They Given that there's 16 debuff slots We're going to have this guy With this much health So if they were to have Or given that there's 8 Given that there's 16 Whatever So if they want to If they want to do anything Like that Are they going to go back In order to give us The most authentic class experience That they claim that They want to give us Are they going to like Increase some values And tune some numbers In order to have 16 debuff slots At this point But now that it's 16 debuff slots De-buff slots Excuse me Is he going to have A little bit more health Is he going to have A little bit of this A little bit of that My perfect world Is that Whenever ZG comes out They make it 16 And it starts at 8 I think that's probably That's what would be Now perfect world Is not necessarily What do I What do I think They're going to do I think that They're going to start At alpha 16 Right That's what I'm pretty Much assuming At alpha 16 Because I feel like That's the traditional Experience And also You know Like molten core Is already very easy And especially with The 1.12 talents And everything And especially if These gear pieces Like Tips was talking about Earlier Come out on release It's going to fall over Even if you're Not even trying I think for Very good guilds Yes And even medium guilds But you will have Guilts You have guilds That are hard Stuck on gar For weeks For medium guilds I don't know There's normal mode guilds And I don't know How they do it But they do it every Single week And I don't understand it At all But there it is Yeah I mean Like That's just an Insure of it Like you're going to Have these top tier guilds That are just going to Smoke in one night But There's going to be Plenty of guilds That are spending Two, three months In molten core Maybe more I think making it An authentic experience Is important And the guide from Debuff Slots Is part of that Often the experience Yeah 100% So Something I want to touch on this We should have touched on this earlier I saw the question In chat I just I vaulted it But A couple people were Asking me about The health regen Rates on the demo I think it's a bug That's What we're talking about earlier It was way hot It had to be hot So that In cataclysm I believe this is Whenever it happened Is player movement speed Increased 100% Like The previous 120% Became 100% Or you know Maybe 100% Right And it was Moved up And your character Simply moved faster That's And the health regen Are probably again Holdovers From the Legion system That boys are just Working backwards from Right It's not a Design decision It's not a Design decision It's just Holdover legion clutter Right This is something Like you report this Hey I think the health regen Rates are too high Right I think this Would you guys Look into this? This is an interesting Question Will there be Armory in classic? Now obviously nobody Knows that Answer What do you guys Think about Armory in classic? I think they should Have an armory And I think That they should Have daily Player submitted screenshots Like they used to Have back Armory Armory was in So you might as well Blizzard just You already have it in there Just do it Maybe I don't know The thing with Armory Is it's interesting Because it's actually Not really It's a change Without it being Game change Because it's Completely third party Outside Outside the game Outside the game So I'm trying to think How does this Effect the game How does this Effect in game I am It's all In private service Right So in private service Like as we play Or whatever And in private service What they do Is you can go in You just type in Your character info Whatever And then You put server You do this You do that And then you can look up Your character You can have all this gear All this whatever Now it's It's a third party website Some people are just Throwing it together Maybe some random guys Throwing it together But I don't know I don't mind I wouldn't love to see A classic Like With the With the drop down venues That shoot a breakdown And you can have Your armory embedded I would love to see that You got the community section Yeah I think that would just be cool Like that I don't know I love the old website I think this I thought that was the best website I'm dead serious when I say this To date I think that is my favorite Design website ever I thought it was the coolest Thing in the world I think it's fan service That they can do For the player base It means a lot to them And also It doesn't necessarily hurt Anything And I think that if you ever Have a situation where Something that makes people happy That really care about your product Whenever it doesn't hurt anyone else You should probably take advantage of it Unless it's just going to be Ridiculously expensive One thing we didn't talk about And I've seen brought up a couple of times Is the issue of add-ons And add-ons that become so powerful That they subvert the philosophy Of classic wow So an example of this Obviously would be a group finder add-on Now obviously group finder is completely You know against the philosophy Of classic wow In every single way And so what if somebody Makes a group finder add-on That allows you to Automatically queue up for groups Or let's say dead minds Yeah, so So do you think Blizzard should stop that? I do think there should be Marker and so there should be A constitution in regards to Like the philosophies that guide vanilla I don't necessarily agree with that But to apply that to add-ons specifically There are a lot of add-ons Especially if it sounds like There's some kind of hybrid I don't know how the technical side works But basically the add-ons that work on 735 Don't work in classic as of now And the add-ons on 112 Don't work in classic as of now According to the DBM guide But I do think there should be Some kind of line There is precedent for it in vanilla They did stop the cursive in vanilla So there's a precedent for them to intervene Happened in Rathen too Yeah, so they should be very aware Yeah, you're right If there's precedent for add-ons It's really fundamentally undermined The gameplay experience I do think that they should be shut down And I think Not necessarily a constitution But this is not in line Group finder for example Is not in line with the philosophy Yeah, so this is something Now I wasn't told this specifically Right But I get a chance to kind of Talk with some Blizzard people I actually brought this up Right And I was like Well, what about certain add-ons That kind of like They're not vanilla like group finders Isn't that I got the vibe That they were not about it Like they I got the vibe that they did not like The idea of people doing add-ons like that Now I don't know Right, I was just talking to some random people I wasn't talking to dad I was talking to some random Blizzard employees But I got I got the vibe That they didn't seem to like that idea That people could do that So I don't know And that could be something That hopefully they step down there I think they're going to break the add-ons I think they should break it If I had some bad I think that they will Yeah Will it even be possible to make an add-on like that If the tool itself is not in-built in the game Like OQ and MS I think it's more of a hypothetical Because like AVR, for example, was the add-on That Blizzard had to break in ICC It was patched 3.35, I believe And they I think removed some of the functionality from that And then again this happened With them reducing the functionality Of I think it was friendly nameplates In a night hold Because of the way that it was able to trivialize The Grand Tri-Mechanic And the Grand or whatever conjunction Or Constellation Mechanic That happened on Mythic Star Auger And that was done That has a response to people seeing A lot of these guilds use these weak auras That were able to just completely trivialize The Mythic Mechanics And I think one of the issues with that And this is more of a current wow thing But something that can happen in Classic Wow 2 Depending on how serious it gets Is people using add-ons That are able to basically allow them to perform At a level that's so much higher Than other people, right? So you can think of something like the Curse of Or things that are able to do different rotations For you that usually might not be able to Math out correctly And I think that whenever that happens It does artificially increase the gap Between players that do have these add-ons And of course players that have add-ons Are by the nature more skilled Than more understanding of the game Because they're able to download add-ons That creates this artificial gap of skill And so this is an issue with current Wow 2 And I do think that those problems Should be brought further in line And you should try to make sure That everybody's playing on the even playing field As much as possible But I also think that they should not Get rid of add-ons unless they are Like really bad, like AVR Group Finder Decursive maybe, right? Things like that Was it during Legion where there was an add-on That was Belior He made an add-on And the reason that he had to stop doing that Is because Blizzard had to ask him to stop Because his add-on was so comprehensive It was being considered An entire expansion that they're making For the game So unfortunately Belior had to stop Making the content I think it was unfortunate for Blizzard too It's not something that they wanted to do It's just because their legal department Determined that because of the Comprehensive nature of the add-on They had to get rid of it That's what I think happened I don't remember exactly, that's what I think What about add-ons that help a lot But isn't really doing anything In the competitive scene like Quest Helper That's a good example Quest Helper, the first quest helper That came out that I used was Carbonite Quest and Rathalich King I didn't use anything to that either Yeah, I think that so You didn't use one at TPC, really I didn't even know they existed until Carbonite That's so weird that you mentioned that Flashback It was whenever I quit and then I didn't even use it in my first run through Rath I got a couple levels, quit the game And then I came back later on and then I used it I never used one in Vanilla But I'm pretty sure there was an option It was very rudimentary, but I think there was one I don't remember the name There was definitely one in TPC Carbonite had to have come out in TPC For it to be ready for the run That's the interesting thing about Questing and leveling times So a recent legal server Recently released some statistics On leveling, and we're talking about A pretty, you know, if you're playing On legal servers, which technically Shouldn't be, that's a very Small condensed, you know Higher skill player base on average They still took Yeah, they still took 11 days Played on average to get to level 60 Back in Vanilla, it was 15 days Played, I think, for the average player But even with Quest, I mean people use Quest Helpers on these servers, so it's like Maybe it's not that big of a deal I mean, if anything I found like my best success, my best leveling Times have come from primarily grinding And stuff, but obviously different classes Have different strengths and weaknesses But I don't think Quest Helpers are that Like huge in Vanilla They would, you would think they would be But 11 days play I don't think it undermines Vanilla at all We're going to thought, literally back to this When I was doing, when I was good I would go to a website, Thoughtbutter Alakazam, literally every Quest And just have it tell me exactly where to go I just didn't request Next ever I would do that I would run around like an idiot For about 20 minutes and I'd get really mad And I'd look it up, so that's a little bit different But the same result I mean, if I could go back in time And never allow Quest Helpers Now we're talking about a different story I just think The idea of kind of, you know Maybe we'll see this again someday Being able to include some kind of like RNG mechanic to allow quests To kind of have some kind of Randomness where you can't always pre-map Out your quest, I think that'd be interesting Like an exploration based MMO But in WoW specifically Like now that's already happened We're not talking Classic It's just a kind of, yeah Like I remember like Specifically the Quest Null and Forest There's the Fargo Deep Mine I think it's the, what is it? The Jasperwood Mine So I remember like the Quest Text was like It's, you know, northeast of some place And because my computer sucked back in the day My view distance sucked And the Fog of WoW was like super close So I just remember searching all over for this God damn mine And then you finally find it and it's like This big achievement in and of itself Finding quest objectives That'd be cool, but At this day and age, I don't know Yeah, I mean it kind of is what it is I think all that stuff's cool too Yeah, well I was just going to say Yeah, let's do maybe Yeah, we have a couple more questions Yeah, we have one or two more questions That Andy's going to look through and pick out for us Guys, if you haven't already I'm going to take this And I'm going to put it on YouTube But if you haven't already So maybe Stay Safe TV They're, you know, regularly us three Do classic casts together, Asmongold of course Any fuchsia, their names are in the title If you guys want to follow them on Twitch YouTube as well Stay Safe TV, Tips Out Baby, S-Fan TV You have a weird one What's your YouTube? Just Asmongold Yeah, it was figured out Second page I think Yeah, yeah, yeah It'll be a whole bunch of like And then it'll be Asmongold at the bottom But yeah, so and then Andy as well Andy's on YouTube as well So yeah, let's go ahead and do a couple more questions We're going to do this again tomorrow night as well Just kind of do a short session Hour, hour and a half session For a day to recap tomorrow night People are talking about Guild Calendar and Guild Banks They were not in Vanilla WoW And so they shouldn't be in the game Now, it might seem So Guild Banks, I'll use this as an example Of what Guild Banks do Versus what do they not do Guild Banks Remove a certain amount of trust That you have to have in your Guild Master Because the Guild Master Whenever you give them all the items In Vanilla WoW They usually hold it on a bank character Now nobody has access, visual access At all to that character So there's an extra level of trust That players have to have in their Guild Master To be able to adequately Loot and distribute things In a way that's ethical and fair That the Guild Bank makes more transparent So these little Very, very minor social changes I think the reason why we're in this situation And we're in with current WoW Is the death of a thousand cuts All of these little tiny social changes Suddenly you've got force personally You're bleeding out You're dying You've got force personally I don't think that they should be in Vanilla Classic WoW And it's a terrible decision Personally you'd be great in Classic No That's too important There's a question here Regarding dungeon and raid sizes If they should all be As they were before I can read the whole question It's been quite long What dungeon sizes are you hoping to see in Classic WoW For example straps called LBRS And BRD were 10 man dungeons UBRS was 15 man Or the 5 man groups everyone knows today So check this out when Vanilla first came out Every instance was up to 40 man You could take 40 people in the deadlines I think the sizes should be where they Ended at rather than where they started Yeah I think so too So once we came out and said this In the first Water Cruel Update They felt like 1.12 was the most complete Version of Vanilla There were some things along the way That we would like to see And that we have seen work out Very well on Pride servers like Nostalris However One of those things that I think a lot of people think this They should just have it be 5 man They should have the dungeons As they ended off You think UBRS should start 15 and change to 10 I think it should just be 10 Well UBRS would be 10 man as well That's what we're talking about UBRS was First off you could do whatever you wanted And it was 40 man everything And then after a little while they changed it To like okay Strath was 10 man Strath was 10 man too wasn't it Strath and Skull over 10 man UBRS was 15 man And then later on they changed it to You know what let's tighten it down a little bit more And we'll go 5 man on everything Except for UBRS was 10 man I don't know I think this should just go with how they ended up And I also do want to make one clarification There's a couple of people in chat Understanding like a little bit more of the nuance And no changes I think the idea of no changes Is that people don't want anything That was not existing within Vanilla to be added Into the game right So you look at the time period of November whatever the hell 2005 or 4 excuse me And January I think 2007 And anything that comes Inside this window of time Is completely debatable Negotiable Changing is completely fine Those are not changes Because that was in Vanilla Wow Just to clarify to that point You said January That was the burning crusade release But technically the burning crusade patch Was in the beginning of December December Anything before 2.0 basically Is okay to talk about And little known fact patch 1.12 Was like what 9 months long No no no so 1.11 Came out in I think June Which is the next patch And then 12 I think came out in October It was very short I think 12 was very short Was like October September or something I think it was like from 1.10 to 1.12 Was like really really long or something Like that duration was like half Is like half of Vanilla or something I don't know if it's quite that long Well I think it's just the idea The philosophy if you don't want to add You don't want to add extra features Mechanics, content or anything like that Into the game that wasn't existing Whenever Vanilla was current content And if it was happening whenever Vanilla was Like progressive itemization I think that's basically, that's the paradox Is that making No changes to items Is a change And changing items Is no changes It's very complex It's much more nuanced than just saying No changes or anything like that But things that happened And changed and evolved within Vanilla Are completely on the table to be Discussed, debated and I think that's What Blizzard would appreciate That way the best ideas can come out Of those discussions and debates And we can have the best game possible Another question about Looking back at old classes We kind of touched the idea of Making something that can't tank properly or whatever But what about the idea of Some classes just being really weak Or certain specs being really weak Should those be turned? Is that in response as a kind of Contradiction to what I said about demon hunters? I think it's in the topic of No changes Sure, warrior, warrior I think it's in the topic of no changes Obviously nobody wants to have any sort of a class Change, right? You don't want Crusader Strike I don't want Victory Rush Stay safe, you don't want Unstable Affliction What about not changing mechanics But simply number buffs? Is that a change? What are you talking about? You're talking about on abilities and stuff On what? On damage values If certain specs are weak They just shouldn't mess with that It's a whole snowball effect If you change one thing for one class In vanilla while you play a class You don't play a spec So what if you change the values to something like Let's say you change the base value of Holy Light For Paladin Increase the base value of Holy Light For Paladin That affects Holy Let's buff Holy Paladins Which they don't need it What's going to happen Let's buff Paladins Increase the mana cost of Starfire It ends up affecting the other specs So what happens You end up having We want to buff this one spec But you're buffing the whole class and it affects Holy Here's what you can look at Let's say you have Everybody knows scales Imagine In the scale There's nine different classes If you put a rock on Or take a rock away from one It changes the balance of all of the other scales Blizzard does not need to get into The endless loop Opening Pandora's box Or changing the mechanics If you want to play a moon cannon In Nax You're going to have a bad time But you can still do it You can still do it And you can also play Resto That is completely different Than my concern That I had with current gameplay Because again we're talking about The same thing Stay safe It's easy to think Adding a change Or making a balanced decision will be cool And it will be beneficial for the game But it's very easy to overlook The negative ramifications Of set of change Flying is probably the best example You can understand from Blizzard's point of view Why they thought it would be a good idea You can design terrain like floating islands Or caves at the tops of mountains And it's a whole new mountain That you can design in players That will be cool We can do lots of crazy stuff And then now a decade later We realized in hindsight The way that that diminishes The players interaction with other players The way players engage with the terrain around them It's been a very bad thing I would bet that if Blizzard could go back in time They would get rid of it I think they would limit it a lot more Than they did It's a great thing for a while In a context In the context of Stormpeak I think it's a great thing for a while In the context of Elwynn Forest I don't think that it's a great thing for a while And I think Blizzard should have done a much better job In reigning and flying They've tried They've tried the Lustre expansions Counting in BFA where the first half You can't even use it They tried to keep it so that the new content You can't fly in it In the context of their abilities In the new content And I think the good news I honestly don't think They have ever even considered Making any of these changes I honestly think from when they set out to do all of this They never thought to themselves We should probably balance classes Think of all the work All the arguments, the debates we just had At the end of the day, what's the easiest thing to do What's been proven to work Why would you go out of your way And open up a million problems Just to maybe possibly improve on something That you already know has succeeded Avert the risk Do it as it was I think that's been their plan since day one Just give the people what they want It's actually a good point They're starting with balancing to gain now They would go back and try to balance that Shadow Priest where you at I say this all the time It's very weird to me that We want vanilla to change We really want vanilla posting on forums Making videos, streaming, playing private servers Pushing just to be able to replay this game And then the second Now it's in front of us What can we change Can we have class rebounds Can we have post next content Can we do this, can we do that Let's just play the game that we know And that we love and we've been trying to get In front of us Let's get back to that question in two years Guys we are going to do this We are going to do this again tomorrow night Kind of do a little hour, hour and a half Pow wow, kind of like we did tonight Same sort of idea We're using the IRL backpack It might be a little bit scuff It might drop it out here and there I will post these to YouTube Again, tips out baby Stay safe TV if you can hit it with a follow YouTube sub and of course Annie and Asman as well They're both on YouTube and Twitch as well So Me too, you know, if you guys feel like it Me too, if you guys want to follow me as well But guys Thank you guys so much for joining us I think tomorrow is going to be a pretty interesting day We're going to have a classic panel So we're going to have a lot to talk about We might go a little bit over time tomorrow But I know there's quite a few people Talking about sharding So they probably missed the beginning So it's probably something to talk about tomorrow Yeah we might touch on sharding a little more I don't think it's real We're talking about too much more until we get That clarification tomorrow So yeah guys, thanks a lot for watching I know this was kind of last minute But I feel like honestly this is the first time We've ever done classic cast Where everybody was in the same room And how funny and cool was that And sponsored by cars too In theaters sometime A couple years ago It's on DVD now Maybe it's still at Red Box Anyways guys, thanks so much for joining us And we'll see you guys tomorrow IRLs whatever the whole deal See you guys