 Without further ado, let's talk about our speaker today who is Carly Wanahide and her talk today will be about utilising sorcery, an app for archivists, researchers and repositories of all sizes. I'm really looking forward to this session because I think it's something that many people in research libraries have faced. It used to be that people would look at our catalogue and then they'd come in or maybe occasionally they might hire a researcher to come in for them and they'd look at collections. The digital shift hasn't had a huge impact on those kinds of services, the expectations of those kinds of services and what we're able to deliver. And that sometimes feels like something that really complicates our workflows. And I'm looking forward to finding out how this particular technology may well be able to help us with those kinds of workflow challenges that we all have to match collections to users in a most efficient way possible. So to introduce Carly, Carly is a design technologist at Greenhouse Studios, which is the University of Connecticut in the United States. That's a digital humanities research incubation studio and Carly is the project lead for sorcery, which is a community driven app to connect researchers with archivists and to simplify reference scan requests. I'll hand over to Carly now to introduce and talk about her work. Then I think we're going to get a demonstration and then we'll move to questions over to you, Carly. Great. Thanks so much guy for the kind introductions and I'm really looking forward to be here with all of you today. So I'm going to go ahead and share my screen. So today I'm here to chat with you all about sorcery, which we're seeing as an infrastructural and communication tool for researchers archivists and all sizes and I'd like to start with a little bit more of a quick introduction. So I'll talk about myself a little bit where I get to work. And then of course, sorcery and the team that I get to work with as well. So my name is Carly Wanderhide. I am based in Connecticut in the States. I'm a design technologist at the Yukon library specifically Greenhouse Studios, which is housed there. And I'm also the project lead and lead UI UX designer of sorcery. So what that means is I get to be the connector and center of ideas and perspectives and get to work with other members of the team and our testing partners to come up with some really innovative and creative solutions for this tool. So greenhouse studios, as I said is a digital humanities research incubation studio again housed at the University of Connecticut library. And basically what that means is we are a studio looking to connect people across disciplines backgrounds experiences and help provide the tools needed to disseminate research information and engaging innovative and accessible channels that might be in lieu of or in addition to a traditional research paper. Some of the ways that we've completed these projects are through apps and interactive websites, AR and VR experiences, podcasts, 2D and 3D animations and ArcGIS map and storytelling. And of course now we are working on sorcery, which is another app, a web app specifically. So then we have the sorcery team and sorcery is a project directly out of greenhouse studios just to kind of tie that together. So one of the really important things for us was to have a PI team with members on both sides of the reference desk, and a diverse set of testing partners so our PI team is made up of Tom Scheinfeldt who is an academic researcher historian, and the director of greenhouse studios, Greg Kalati, who is the director of the Connecticut digital archives, so of course an archivist, Sarah Sykes who is a librarian and associate director of greenhouse studios, and Dan Cohen who is another academic researcher and historian, as well as the Vice Provost for Information Collaboration, Dean of the Libraries, and Professor of History at Northeastern University in Boston. Then of course we have our four testing partners and one of the really great things about our testing partners is it's a very diverse set. So we have a private university library, a large public university library, an urban public library, an elite research library. And that of course is Northeastern University Library, Hartford Public Library, Yukon Archives and Special Collections, and the Folger Shakespeare Library. So it was really important for us for our PI team and testing partners to reflect the group needs of sorcery so that as we continue to build this app we had perspectives from both sides of that research desk. So before I really dive into what sorcery is as an app, I wanted to talk about these last two years where we were plunged into this virtual only world and how we're kind of coming out of it now to marry both the virtual and in person environments. And as I'm talking through this slide what I'd like to say is that pandemic has really reinforced these trends problems and issues that we already knew existed, but has made them more salient. So everything in this is not new. So the first thing that I think we can all maybe start to see is that the pace of discovery has outpaced the speed of high quality digitization, especially because everything now is so accessible through the internet which is such a gift and it's really great. But now we have to navigate how do we marry these two things right. So we have these aids, or what this wealth of aids of online finding material. And what does that result in heavier workloads for reference and digitization services stuff. So we're kind of finding that we're facing this imbalance between the needs of high quality scan workflows through labor and technology, and then this high volume of reference scan requests. And that digitization services is sort of caught in the middle ground of trying to manage requests and fulfill needs of requesters, while also performing their job of providing high quality digital scans which of course takes time and high high levels of technology. So, as far as where we see sorcery coming into this is it's not necessarily operating as part of institutional digitization program, and can operate independently of that with an option to integrate, but we'll mainly be about patron services and access. So then that leads us to this need for integrated in person and online research and request workflows right so like we said once we've increased this volume of folks who want scans remotely. The workload of archivists and librarians is going to exponentially increase. So, we're working to make visible the often invisible labor of archivists and librarians, while also providing a tool for researchers all over the world to get what they're looking for. Then of course because of this pandemic and we've been stuck in our bedrooms and our living rooms and maybe a sunroom for lucky. We are facing this global accessibility to archival documents through the internet, which, again, is fantastic but we need to be able to make sure that folks all over the world can get what they're looking for without necessarily visiting. We also face roadblocks when we can't get to the places that we're looking to go as we've seen in these last two years so, for example, financial and time constraints, some folks may not have the money or means to be able to fly across the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean to visit a repository for a couple of days, or maybe the reading room is open Monday Tuesday Wednesday and they can only travel Thursday Friday Saturday. Additionally, health and safety concerns as we've seen over these last two years have become the forefront of our minds. And that's also been true for a lot of folks prior to the pandemic and we want to be thoughtful about making sure that remains accessible to everyone, whether they're caring for a family member who's sick and they can't travel or for themselves, or they're working to find better methods of accessibility that they might not be able to physically get to. Of course, we're looking at network accessibility and who you know so for researchers just entering the scene, they might not have the depth of network to know researchers in the area of the repository that they're looking to get information from, or to know anybody at the repository to ask for their help. And then of course, we're aware of our carbon footprint and that it may not be feasible and environmentally conscious to be flying if we're simply doing and performing some research or preliminary research before we know what we're actually looking for. So the bottom line is we need better research infrastructure, and we've kind of identified three ways that that might help them. So methods of improved access channels, improved access to currently undigitized materials, and stronger communication between repositories and researchers. So that brings us to sorcery right so sorcery is an open source not for profit web app that's accessible on any device connected to the Internet. So that could be phones, laptops, tablets desktop computers, and both iOS Mac computers and phones and technology as well as Windows or Android. So we see sorcery as being able to be a tool for both researchers and archivists and repositories of course so for researchers were providing a single familiar platform to request reference scans from participating institutions so as they're creating a request and I'll get to show you in a little bit. Any institution that's partnered with sorcery will show up right in their request service log. So for archivists and librarians, we're looking to provide a streamlined reference scanning fulfillment workflow with payment processing services and rich usage analytics which I'll get into in a little bit as well. The other really thing that we're excited about with sorcery is that it would be a method of communication between researchers and archivists so to help create some emails and kind of streamline that process a little bit more. Additionally, once the request has been fulfilled, there will be receipts of the transaction and communication that are provided to both parties. So, now we see sorcery as a tool of course for both researchers and archivists, but then we kind of go into a little bit deeper and we see this as both an infrastructural tool in a communication tool. So, as an infrastructural tool, we're looking to help increase your repository's accessibility outside of your immediate locale and connect with researchers, you might not have been able to connect with prior to that. We also see this as an organizational tool to streamline request and fulfillment process and access data and analytics to use in reports, grants and more, whether that might be to help provide funding as you write reports and grants or for internal information that you're looking for. So, some of the data that we're looking to have institutions be able to access would be requests over time, geographical location of requesters, their repeat and new users, as well as be able to keep track of the amount of work and the time it takes for repository requests, the request workload, the types of requests and that could be file types, and the number of interactions and more. We're also looking to have repositories be able to create customized surveys. And that could be on information that they would like for maybe what a researcher is using their information for, or how the whole process went. Additionally, we are using Stripe as a simplified customizable payment service. Institutions can decide what they would like to charge for scans, if at all so it's totally open to that institution if they would like to provide free scans that's great, and if they would like to monetize that to kind of offset some of that workload, we would like to be able to provide that as well. As we keep working on the app, we are looking at upcoming integrations with Tropi, Omeka, Islandora, Fedora, and ArchiveSpace to continue having Sorcery be that centralized point that can help connect all of these different methods of access in one usable interface. So that Sorcery is an infrastructural tool. But of course, as I said, we also would like it to be used as a communications tool. So the app has an in-app chat feature to communicate directly on a per request basis. So you're only talking about that one single request rather than trying to manage an inbox or manually organize spreadsheets to keep track of everything that's been asked for. You can also share direct links to users to fulfill a request if what they are requesting has already been digitized, which is really exciting because we're hoping that that can alleviate some of the workflow as well. As repositories complete a request, they can provide corrected citations or share additional citations that a researcher might be interested in the future. And like I said, upon completion of the request, the message thread is saved and shared so that both parties have access so in case there were any notes that were made or, hey, I think this might be something that will be really interesting for you to check out based on your research. It's all right there and accessible to both. So I would love to give you all a quick demo. We will be doing a demo on the request workflow. So this will be the researcher side as well as after the fulfill workflow on the repository side. Make sure it's a nice high quality. So this is our dashboard on the researcher side you'll be able to see your current completed and archived requests. So this has been for current and completed requests. This is the name which you'll be able to give a nickname to if you would like. So the nicknames are totally blind to each side. The researcher can give a request a nickname so they may organize it and the organizer the filler will be able to also give a nickname. So let's go ahead and start this creator request process. So here's the first screen you'll see you can select a repository as well as search repositories in this little bar. You can also browse by name location and institution type. For our example we're going to be putting in a request at the University of Connecticut. So in this creator request field you will see the email or request title as well as this box for information. And what was really important to us was to make it very accessible, especially through language so we didn't want to ask specifically for citations. And the reason we did this is if someone knows of something that might be at the repository or is looking for more information, they feel like they can access it and it's not a barrier to entry if they don't have the citation. So that's where that would go. And again citations are appreciated but not necessary. So through the magic of TV we will fulfill our request. As you can see, this person is looking for documents about the Connecticut Citizens Action Group from the years 1973 to 1976, specifically in the health project collection and environmental issues. They talk about what they are researching in their project. During that time period and are also asking for the guidance of the archivist. Let's go all the way back to the beginning and start over from the top. So finally you get to go over the details and review them, make sure everything is as you would like. For a lot of our repositories and our testing partners, one of the things they were talking about was they have copyrighted documents and need to make sure people know the terms and conditions. So that's a point where they would be able to link their terms and conditions make sure they know it. At the all set page tells them yep all set your request has been sent as an email for your records. It gives the amount of time that the institution usually takes and then says it has been moved and you can also ask for anything else for the in chat or add any other details in chat. So here are one more time is the dashboard you can see in our current request the current said current citizens action information project has been added right there. And is now in current requests. So again this is our dashboard and as we move into the discussion if there's anything that you would like to go back to or chat with I would be happy to do that. So that's the request workflow. Now let's go through the fulfill workflow. This is our institutional dashboard looks very similar where we see our new in progress and completed requests, but we also see the average turnaround time that is purely for an institutions information and will not be shown outwards towards researchers, mainly that we wanted this as information, but we didn't want it to be something that an institution had to work up to because we're understanding of the fact that things change sometimes you can't fulfill a request in that amount of time whether that be because of labor or digitization needs, or trying to find it and make sure that what they're looking for is accessed. We also have the analytics and then the settings tools right up there. So we have a new request of the new requests in progress and recently completed. So, we have a new request the Mary Tilden documents, and we have this little notification so we can open the chat. And this person said that they forgot to specify that they would greatly appreciate PDF versions of the document so this is what we're hoping that the chat might be used for whether that's another specification, or if there are any questions that are answered that can all be taken care of right there. So we click let's fulfill the request. We get the title that we can also change so one of the ways we see this being used is if you have multiple archivists fulfilling requests or students or grad students helping to do this. This is a way to assign jobs and roles. So instead of tagging them right now, you can add, Hey, Carly, you are going to take care of the Mary Tilden documents. And that would be blind just to the archive, making that change the researcher would not see it. So we have the information on the request. She is looking for the offer of forgiveness document from Mary Tilden, as well as her intent to return, and the year that she believes that they are from maybe put without the exact date. So if we were ready to fill it and had it right there we could do it there but let's move it to in progress. So we've moved this in progress our status has changed. If we already have it digitized and we wanted to share the link we could do so there. But today we are going to upload a file. Additionally, if we were working on a mobile device, whether that be a phone or a tablet, and we prefer to take a quick photo of it, we can hit the take photo button which would link us to our camera on our phones, or a tablet, which we could then snap the picture and upload it directly from there. So those are two options to be able to pull a request. So upload our file we are will select our PDF documents, click open, and there they are right there so if we decided we'd prefer to rename them for whatever reason like maybe our file management system makes a lot of sense to us but wouldn't necessarily make sense and fulfilling our request, we could do that through the edit button. We can also get a preview of the document and what that will look like so here it is. So two pages long as a PDF. And then the other one would also be two pages long so it would just be showing per attachment. If you fulfilled the request whether through sending a link in the chat thread, or that you do not have the requested documents and cannot fulfill the request, you can manually complete the request by checking one of these two boxes. Luckily we have both of those so we'll go ahead and complete the request. We get a little pop up that says are you sure you're ready to do so? Moving the request or finishing this will move the request to your completed section and you will not be able to add any more files. So we said we're all set. We can see that the recently completed now shows up, the request now shows up in our recently completed requests. The numbers have changed and we have made sure that that researcher gets what they're looking for. So that's our quick demo of how that works. Again, happy to chat or answer any other questions about either of those processes. So what's coming up? We are going to be continuing testing with our partners, two of which are actively using Sorcery as a request and fulfill workflow, which is very exciting. We are holding a design show right on May with our current partners, prospective partners and our advisory board, which we are very excited about. We will be chatting about the continued development of the app and where we see it going. For the rest of this year, we will be completing integrations with third party applications and launching our analytics tools. And then in 2023, we will be launching our native Android and iOS apps, as well as a mini minimal computing version of the app for folks in low bandwidth areas, we want them to be able to access sources as well without having to run the full internet app. We'll also be implementing a higher researcher feature so if you know there's a certain repository that may have a lot of information on a specific topic. But you're not sure exactly what you're looking for and you can hire someone in that geographic area to go to the repository and take a look for you and kind of report back like hey, here are the documents that would really align with what you're looking for it sounds like. And then additionally will be piloting a peer to peer scanning service. So hopefully as more and more requests are needed at repositories. One way we might help alleviate that is researchers in an area that someone else is looking for so let's say I'm here in Hartford and I'm looking for something in London. I can hire someone in London that's a researcher to go to that repository. And if I know exactly what I'm looking for say hey here's the exact skin I need. Can you please go do that, and I can do that all through the app. So that's what's coming up. We're really excited about it. We are actively looking to sign up new partners, as well as researchers looking to use the app. If you're interested in doing so you can visit sorcery app.org or email me directly at parley at ucon.edu. And you can follow us on social media Twitter and Instagram we're at sorcery underscore app and Facebook at sorcery app. We will also be at the ALA conference in DC in June at the mobile app pavilion so if you are there, we would love for you to come stop by and join us. And then we will be on a panel discussion at the AHA in Philadelphia in January of 2023. If you follow us will keep you updated with any other additional events we will be attending, but we do hope to see you. So at this time, I would love to start to move into the discussion Q&A portion and I'm really looking forward to chatting with you all and thank you for working with me and your patients as I navigated all those fun videos. Carly, thank you so much. That was fantastic. Really, really good. And I can see there are questions pouring in so that's a really good, really good side. If there hadn't been any questions it would still have been a good side because it would have been you'd answered everyone's questions with a fantastic presentation was a fantastic presentation, but you've inspired some questions as well. So some of these look like these are quite kind of specific and technical which is I think probably what I was expecting. So, so let's just get through them. So, firstly, is it from from Marion, is it clear for everybody which partner is going to fulfill the request. So, presumably, you, as the you from the user end, you know that it's gone to different institution request might you might request with different institutions. Yeah, so on the user end you're selecting which repository right that repository is the only one that will get that incoming request, and then they can decide which staff member might be fulfilling it but that request will only go to that institution. Okay, and then from Garaba, we have says a fantastic resource indeed. How is the issue of copyright accommodated here you mentioned about there being some terms and conditions but I mean I was one sort of that kind of ties into something I was thinking which is does it does that information pop up and actually force the user. Yeah, so that checkbox where it was linked with the terms and conditions, the individual repository will be able to link their terms and conditions right there. We found with our current testing partners this is a very similar process to what they use at the moment is it's kind of like this checkbox that the user is the one responsible for knowing how that reference scan can be used. The repository is also meant to be a reference scan request service and not necessarily the highest quality digitization service. So we're also hoping that that discrepancy makes a little bit more difficult for somebody to perhaps republish that, but we're looking to get to that as the user's responsibility to know that that repositories terms and conditions. Okay, so repositories responsibility to ensure that the scans there if they don't want to put out publication quality scans, don't put out publication quality scans. Correct. And also if you don't want to if you if it's illegal to scan something don't scan it. I imagine most libraries would have plenty of policies around around that kind of thing. So the user's end in terms of further use that would be their their responsibility and that would have the app would have ways of making it clear to them that that's their responsibility based on what the institutions preferred way of stating that would be. Okay, cool. Copyright question dealt with I feel fantastic. This is for Marion as well. If you can fulfill the request but you have no time to do that today. Can you send a message about this delayed fulfillment, presumably that's just done through the chat. Yeah, absolutely. So right now would be a manual type out what we're looking at is something like an automated chat response if that's something an institution would be interested in and that would be customizable per institution. So, for example, if you're a really busy institution and you know it's going to take about three to five days to even process this request, that user will get an automated response I said hi thank you so much for your inquiry we're working on it it usually takes us X amount of days for us to be able to complete this. So that's certainly an option that way. They know that there's some contact. It's been received and that it's not on the archivist to go super quick and be a machine because of course, the fillers are not machine they're humans. Oh, absolutely. Thank you. Then on to Martin Martin has a question is there a possibility of connecting the apps the institutions online catalog that way we can both be sure that we're talking about the same document. Absolutely so that's something we're really looking forward to some of these integrations with these online catalogs where we're hoping that in the exact catalog there will be a sorcery button that they can click on it will actually import that information of whether it be the citation location or the box folder number. It will be input right into sorcery is request field at that specific institution, so that it's even easier for both sides to know exactly which document they're talking about. Okay, so the nature of that integration is most likely to be a sorcery button within the online public access catalog. Correct. And you're talking to providers about that at the moment is that okay. Yeah right now we're doing a lot of testing with archive space specifically for exactly that integration but are looking kind of wider as well. Sure. Okay, that's very interesting. Thank you. Okay, so Ian has a question that's more. Comment. Okay, so it and a question at the end right okay so just catching up on this one. So in terms of an archive is making a copy of an unpublished work for a user in the UK. They must have a statement that the user has not previously been supplied with a copy of that material and a statement that they require to copy for the purpose of private study or non commercial research. And the user must also agree that they will not supply the copy provided under the exception to any other person. Our slash can these be covered in sorcery so this is the standard UK what's called would call library privilege copying or. I'm an archivist so I don't like calling something else but the yeah so that type of thing where you need the statutory declaration in UK copyright law, is that the kind of thing that sorcery might be able to cover. And so we see sorcery as a community driven tool right and if this is something that people are like hey we really need this and this would be a really helpful thing. We're going to do everything we can to figure out the best way to implement that within the app. So we might not be sure exactly what that would look like right now whether that be a field or that person has to maybe upload those statements, but as we continue progressing the app is absolutely something we'd be willing and more than happy to look into integrating. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for that for that point I think I can probably fairly confident in saying that that would probably be a requirement in most UK institutions in terms of how it would work is not just an option that you might go and look at the terms of conditions but an actual confirmation that you've you've declared that you've seen it and you've read that statement and you've actually make that statement to us. And that that and that information that you've done that has been captured as well it would have thought for some filing purposes but now stop the time to go into that okay so. I've got quite a few questions here from I actually I do you 10 FG or DUL zero FG so it's just a username. And so, can the system handle imposition non imposition of tax for different groups of customers well. We've talked about payment very much but that's something that maybe we can expand on. Yeah, so our payment is handled through stripe. So I can get more information on exactly how the tax for different groups of customers might work. And if that might be different levels or however it may be but I can get you more information on that as that's that's a very much stripe question but I can help figure that out. Yeah, so a couple of people asking about where the image files stored how long and who owns them. It are the file format limitations maximum number of uploads and downloads those kinds of questions about about the about the image files and how those are used. Yeah, absolutely so right now there's no limit on upload except for like way upper bounds limits. I don't think we'll ever see that right now they're stored indefinitely as we have more users we will probably be looking to figure out the amount of time that makes the most sense. And that might be 48 hours that might be five days that might be 30 days so that'll be something we kind of work to figure out the best sort of use case for that. As far as file types, the only file type that we've kind of stayed away from was a was a tiff because it's so high quality and we're not really looking for high quality scans to be shared through this. However, png's jpegs PDFs, he ic's which are those funny iPhone photos that they like to convert images to videos and movie files audio files those are all things that can be shared over sorcery. Okay, that's really interesting. So I'm going to run through a few more very specific questions. So still has an inquiry service element is there a time billing calculator. So, can you bill for the time if you're if you're if you're providing that it's very interesting you saying about providing the archivist knowledge or the librarians knowledge as well as the, but is that something that can be built. So, because that might be such a qualitative, like, piece per per archive on how they would like to do that. What we're hoping is that that would be built into however they are pricing their scans, rather than a specific time billing calculator. We might be able to help find either a formula or or kind of take a look at a calculator and what that might look like. But at this point, it's more for the job. What we're working with with our testing partners is figuring out some of those labor needs and how those bests might be compensated. Okay, so the idea is this is a pay for the job and try to get to a point where you've got the got a price that the encompasses those kinds of things and presumably you don't have to if you if you were wanting to bill for time you'd have to do that in a different in a different forum, you know, through a different mechanism. Sure, you could if you're looking within that app in the scan cost itself to kind of build in that labor time. That's totally something you can look at into doing but it's not necessarily a specific calculator built in right now. Okay, and similarly variable charging rates for different qualities of images I mean I know that this is aimed at kind of a research quality image rather than a reproduction quality image. Is that something again that people that could be built in with that flexibility. Yeah, so that's actually something we're really looking into right now so of course sorcery in this moment is a reference skin fulfilling app. However, as we progress if this is something that folks want to use to share high digitization images that could be a differently scaffolded pricing. Okay, so a straightforward question how much does your project product cost. It is free to use it is completely open to use. We are we really wanted this to be an opportunity for anyone who wanted to use it to be able to use it without the barrier of cost. And the future we might look at what pricing looks like, but our main goal is to keep this very accessible. Fantastic. Okay, so Heather's got a question about which providers you're speaking to about integration. I think that might have been one that you answered because you said you're talking to archive space about the catalog integration, and you've got a payment. You got a payment gateway provider which presumably is stripe stripe right. And then we're also working or looking to work with trophy omega island or and fedora for continued integrations. So, so okay fantastic so in terms of payment let's just let's just have a think about payment process because Chris has asked about this and I just want to. I want to just try and sort of unpick that a little bit while we were sort of talking about about payment. How does that payment process work. The money is held by within stripe in some kind of escrow and is then and then and then they send a statement and then and then and then the institution receives that money through an invoice or its normal payment method is that how it works. Yes, that's exactly it. So it doesn't have to integrate in so why so I suppose what we're saying is doesn't have to integrate into an institution's own finance system. There's just there's just someone's got some money for you and you can then invoice for it effectively. Yes. Okay, fantastic. I just want to follow up and say did I miss where the where the files are stored indefinitely I think I might have missed that as well so. So where does where the where the files end up sorry. So currently it's cloud based storage. And then right now it's indefinite but we're looking into when it might be time to go ahead and get rid of those files. Yeah. Okay, so some kind of records management process will possibly emerge okay. Yes. Yeah. We've got a question. Great presentation. Can sorcery be linked to online catalog records? Oh, sorry, I didn't read that very fast. That's okay. Meaning users can select an item to be captured found directly onto the archive. I think that's probably answered through the question about the button that's going to go go into potentially archive space and possibly other opax as well. And then a question from Tim Proctor. Thank you, Carly. Following on from that question. Could sorcery upload information to a collections management system. Okay, so. So could it could it be used to actually upload information into a collections management system so that on audit trail records of requests can be created in the management system without money intervention. So in other words, presumably sorcery captures its own audit trail of what requests you've had but can we how can you take that data out and put it somewhere else. Yeah, so those are some of the questions that we're actually looking into answer and figure out right now and figuring out sort of the best methods to do that. So if that's a question that you're interested in, please email me I'd be happy to chat more about it and maybe what would work or any recommendations or suggestions or thoughts. But those are some of the things we're really working out right now and figuring out how that might be best implemented. So Chris has got a question as well so could researchers upload documents to their request to provide extra information easy and Excel spreadsheet of citations for large requests. Yes, absolutely. So, in the request fulfillment process you can either upload documents take photos or both so that's an option so if you have PDFs in your repository that you're uploading that are already digitized or have reference scans up you can go ahead and upload those you can take those scans that are already sort of accessory documents exactly like that you can do as well. One of the other things that we're looking into is providing those request receipts so if you have citations per object, you'll be able to go into that object and add that exact specific citation. And then in the receipt, you'll be able to see those linked to the objects. Okay, that's, that's fantastic. So, we hurtled through some of those very insightful and good practical technical questions that I was hoping we would get. So, if anyone like to join the discussion or ask any other questions please do, but I just wanted to ask you Carly whether through this process of developing this, whether your expectation, the expectations of where you were going with it changed or whether there's something you have as I suppose an insight into, into how either user expectations have changed or how libraries works have changed I mean, how do you reflect on on what's happened what you've learned so far. So, initially sorcery actually started as more of a peer to peer app. And as the as we reached this pandemic, it was kind of this moment of like, okay, let's pause and see how we can redirect what we're doing to still make the tool based on the given circumstances of the world, what repositories might be needing and what researchers might be needing so at this point we really pivoted and we're like okay how can sorcery really become a tool for archives as much as it would be a tool for researchers right so as we started asking those questions and processing those. We really got to work with our partners to figure out our testing partners specifically in the institutions. What do you need in an app. And they were incredible and really laid out like here are all the things that will be helpful. So we've continued working with them and having these relationships. It's been amazing to have them be so candid and honest, whether that be through the language we're using to make it more accessible or the interface and how it works or really what they need as tools. We went from something that would be a very simple fulfill and request process to this tool that we're really seeing as something that can be very centralizing cohesive tool that not only connects research and archivist but provides tool specifically for archives or specifically for researchers so it's really it went from this one flower to all of this one garden, which is really exciting. No that's really interesting to hear. A few more questions have popped in I'm going to take this one first just because I think it's, it relates very much to it was sort of in response to what you just said peer to peer. Isn't this the same as hiring a researcher. Can you explain the difference so I let the peer to peer thing. Yeah. So, peer to peer, the best way I can kind of describe it so I'll give an example. I'm in Hartford, and I need something in London I know exactly what I need and which repository it's at, and the title of the page, everything I know it. So what I do is I hire someone in in London to go to that specific repository, take that specific document that I've requested and fulfill it for me so they're sort of alleviating the work that archivist might do if I was putting it through the institution directly. The difference between hire researcher and peer to peer is that knowledge of the exact document that I'm meeting. So if I'm hiring a researcher. I might know hey my genealogy might be linked to this in this one specific repository and let's say Northern Ireland. But I'm not really sure what they have there, but I know they have information that I think I would find interesting or be helpful in my research. That's when I would hire a researcher to go and sift through some of those documents and take a look at what the repository has in a report back and be like hey, here's what I think would be really interesting to your research based on what you needed. I hope that kind of clarifies the difference. I think I think I see where you're coming from on that and I suppose there is a there is a there's hiring a researcher and hiring a researcher I mean you can hire a researcher. And this, I imagine happens quite a lot, just to come and take images for you of specific documents if you're unable to visit. And if, and particularly if the institution is unable to fulfill that request or doesn't have the capacity to fill that request so I suppose there is a kind of an extent to which to some extent that that that would that could still apply couldn't, no matter what how you're matching that matching up with that person. So I think that's, that's very interesting. Let's just get through a few more questions have come into get through these payment on delivery rather than payment in advance is that correct. Yeah, so that's what we're working on to right now so because we're completely free and open to use at this moment we haven't really jumped into exact the nitty gritty of payment. My guess is there will be some sort of estimate once the request is received based on the amount of documents that need to be scanned, and the time it might take for an archive to fulfill that as well as of course labor needs. We're kind of moving towards that fulfill the set submit the request, have the appraisal and pay that once the request has been submitted but I don't want to say anything is completely cemented at this point because we might find that there is a better way to manage that. Yeah okay so there's something about managing the risk of people doing days and days and days of work and they're not getting paid for it. Versus yeah absolutely versus kind of making it there has to be a point of which someone commits to paying the money before the work is done. Okay, fabulous. This interesting question does this, does it allow for crowdsourcing on such burning matters like archival appraisal. I thought about this particular as being a crowdsourcing. Presumably you could, you could ask your users questions and they could respond in the chat. Absolutely so we have the chat feature to do exactly that. We also have that survey feature where institutions can create customized full surveys if they're looking for answers on any specific questions such as that. Okay, the survey function could well have this this kind of broader use. Fabulous okay so how do the partners or PIs think about this alongside request services for reading room in other words how will they funnel requests from one to another or differentiate. Okay so I suppose that's a question about how how I suppose until we stop seeing how people use it it's hard to tell but but that kind of how you managing your different streams of requests, I suppose and whether this gets priority. Yeah, absolutely. So, a lot of that is really going to be up to the archive itself and how they want to sort of integrate those so some of our partners are, of course we're in this testing phase so those are all the things we're working on but for example one of our partners is having everything even if they're physically in the reading room go through sorcery so that they can practice fulfilling it through that so there might be a QR code in the reading room where someone can log into sorcery and put the requests through sorcery where they might do it together to practice it and together as in the archivist and the requester, looking for that exact document, putting the request through sorcery, and then generating that return through that. So, of course, yeah, that's that's sort of that is right now, but it's really up to the repository how they see sorcery integrating into their workflow whether they're only using sorcery as their method of fulfillment or if it's in addition to another. So I suppose that gives quite interesting kind of follow up which is that if someone comes in and they they want to order something actual copies in the reading room. Could they, you know, are there ways in which sorcery could be used either as a payment gateway just for just the payment or like fulfillment off or could you could you take the payment offline and have them pay then and there if they, you know, I mean I'm thinking, you know, particularly to make the digital divide digital poverty element to this potentially whereby, you know, people may not have a credit card they may not be able to access the online servicing quite the same way them have limited access. So I suppose there is a question about how flexible it can be used in conjunction with offline services. Yeah, absolutely. I think those are all questions that we're exploring and trying to figure out right now as we continue testing so I think we'd, we'd want to figure out ways to make sure this can be taken offline if that's a common use case or to make it accessible and figuring out the best ways to do that. Okay, so move on to Paul's question. Would each user in an institution have their own login or would it be a single account per institution, which you can then add and remove stuff from. Yeah, so in this moment, it's a single institutional account. Of course, we are kind of understanding that that probably won't be the case and to do something more similar to a large institution that has members to fulfill the request that would have their own accounts. So I think that will tie into the larger institution where they can see all requests on the dashboard. Okay. Yeah, okay, got that. So Heather's got to follow up. Please could you clarify with the peer is ordering the copy and therefore accepting the TST TNC or did she misunderstand. I think, I think the peer to peer thing is something that's not. This is customer to this is now been designed as customer to institution, essentially. Right now we're in customer institution and peer to peer, it would be two folks unaffiliated with the repository. So that could be two independent researchers that could be a researcher and maybe a grad student looking to help out that might be a researcher in their own request but is still in school. But the peer to peer is two folks uninvolved with the repository, like not employed there. Yeah, so so what would then happen is that the, the one who's being paid to do the research would then go and would then go and fulfill the request pay any necessary fees at the repository. If they have, for instance, the fees for copying and then they and then they would fulfill that online or offline presumably. Okay, correct. And that's to that extent it's just a kind of matchmaking. Right, exactly. Martin asked where can we find the app if you want to sign up as an institution how do we go about it. I think there was a slide somewhere where you said to contact you but I can't quite. Yeah, yeah, so you can go to sorcery app org or contact me directly which would be great and my email is just carly at you come to you. And then final comment saying I'm not sure commercial copying will fall within our copyright constraints I imagine that the commercial copying. I mean if for instance the institution owns the copyright in something and they want to put a high resolution item and fulfill it that way and allow commercial copying that's going to be up to them. Exactly. But make sure you charge enough.