 This is Will Spencer from the Renaissance of Men here with the new red man group and Carnell Smith. Nice to meet you, sir. Hey, nice to meet you. Will, how are you? I'm doing well. How are you enjoying your time here at the 21 convention? Man, it's my first convention, man, but it is phenomenal. Yeah. Man, what I've liked about it is the brotherhood, the opportunity to meet some people that I've known for years. But this was my first chance to meet in person. Like who? Steve Williams. Okay. So I've met Eric Carrell before, I've seen Melissa Isaac, you know, some of the other folks that were here. And then others, I've seen some of their stuff on YouTube and my first time I also meet them like Jeff, Pastor Jeff, man, awesome, awesome guy. And then I just wish that sometimes I could have been in two places at once. Right. Yeah. I hadn't quite mastered that one though. Just practice. But eventually, I mean, I can, I'm guessing I'm still working on that. So what was the title of your talk? So the title of my talk was, you know, I don't think I actually gave a little title. I just talked about how there was an epidemic where men and boys are going to jail and prison for something they didn't do. Same war. Yeah. Well, it was about my book. I'm the author of Trap by Law. And I wrote on the topic of Trap by Law because men and boys worldwide are being forced to pay child support or child maintenance for children that have been proven to not be theirs by DNA testing. And what DNA testing has revealed on an annual basis that roughly 30% of the men and boys who get tested turn out to not be the dads. 30%? 30%. So wait, 30% of children are not the children of the supposed fathers? Well, not the children that were born. We only know out of the guys who actually got a test. So think of it as a good sampling. If you thought there might be a problem and you did sampling and you confirmed 30% of those who were sampled confirmed there was a problem, would you think you needed to do more data samples? I think so. Well, the opposition, like certain radical feminist groups, would like me silenced because I'm advocating that there'd be DNA testing at birth so that men and boys could make a fully informed decision after they had a truth in their hand. Currently, they don't get 100% of the truth from moms and teen mothers. That's insane. It is. The sad part is that he could go to jail and prison and it happened to me after I almost become homeless and I took it all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court while I lobbed it for new legislation. And in the end, the Supreme Court said, no, you're not allowed to appeal it. So I went back to court using the law that I wrote trying to help other people. I won using the law that I wrote. I called that poetic justice. It's beautiful. Saved my family. Saved your family. How did it save your family? It saved my family from possibly paying another $400,000 of money that for I had been lied to for responsibility that I would have never done. So an ex-girlfriend, she told me after you get this phone call, she says, I'm pregnant and you're the father. Those are seven words that no man wants to hear from an ex-wife, an ex-girlfriend or an ex-fiancé. It is not good news. When that happened to me, I said, well, I'll be responsible. I'll take care of the child. I will do my duties. However, if you think this is a leverage to get back in the relationship, that's not going to happen. Took me 11 years to find out that I had been conned, swindled and hustled and lied to. So then I get another phone call. The next phone call, she says, hey, I've been talking to my girlfriends and you don't pay me enough child support. What do I care about what your girlfriends say? I'm paying money for a college fund. I'm paying money to you directly and I'm maintaining a separate wardrobe at my house out of my pocket because I don't like the stuff that you dresser in. Well, I said, if you think you can get more money, take me to court. I had this naive idea that if I go to court and I show them all the things that I'm doing voluntarily, you know, like what they quote, say, we want men to be responsible. We want teen fathers to be responsible. Well, isn't that predicated upon first that the mother has been truthful in her disclosure to him about the cause of her pregnancy? Yeah. Me with my dumb self. I thought if I show the judge all the stuff that I'm doing, they would laugh her out of the court, kick her out and castigate her for just bringing them out of there. That is not what happened. I went from having unlimited parenting time to once every other weekend to once every other week. When I later I found out that is done to maximize the child support payment because if you don't get to see the child, then the other parent needs the money. It raised my support up to almost 40% of my net pay. Well, my wife, who I'm married to just had our new baby. She's quit her job. We deliberately planned it that way. We don't have married eight years. So I think I got everything financially under control. I never expected what happened next. My pastor's dad talked me into taking the paternity test. Oh, man. He talked about this thing that he seemed to happen to other military men. He himself had been in the Air Force. And I took the test expecting to prove to him that I was the dad just like she said. Well, that's not what happened. I got goose eggs when it came back. The result said 0.0% paternity. The child and I both have been duped. And since I didn't lie to the child and the child didn't lie to me, who lied to both of us? Her mom. Well, I'm vehemently opposed to paying any more money for a child that's not mine who I'm not allowed to see. And I'm not going to battle the course to see a child that's not mine who I can't see. So my thoughts were, I shouldn't have to pay any more money. And this should be over in 15 minutes. Will, when I got the court to judge, said it was my fault that I had to find out she lied to me sooner. The expression on your face, Will, is about how I felt. The short of it, Will, is that I appealed that all the way to the United States Supreme Court demonstrating that over one million men and boys had similar results, that they had DNA proving a one million. That's of those who have been tested. That is not of all of the children that have been born. More than 10 million children had been born during that period of time. And my position is a lot more men and boys should be getting tested because of the culture where those women who have embraced the radical feminist position that they could do everything that men could do in the quest for equality. Here's where they clash and I clash in terms of ideology. I say equality requires equal responsibility and equal accountability. Boom, yeah. They said I'm not being fair. So Will, I lobbied and got legislation passed. As you heard me mention some time ago that I won my case using that law that I helped to write. I remembered something that I put into it to help the greatest number of victims. And I ended up being the first guy to win this case after the judge told me no. And the same judge on my case comes back to me, Will, he wants to apologize for his ruling. He apologized to me at the signing of the legislation, shook my hand. He said he's glad that the law has changed and that the law was wrong. Wow. Did not see that coming. Will, I was so further emboldened by that I went on to help 10 more states change their laws. So my position is men and boys shouldn't be trapped by law for a pregnancy that they didn't commit. Thank you for your work and for your story. Thank you, Will. I hope to inspire more men and those who love those men and boys to become activists and advocates for them so that there'll be a truth and paternity. Because let's be frank, we won't get 100% of the mothers to truthfully say that, you know, I'm married, but I had five boyfriends. My husband didn't know about. And truth be told, it could be one of them. But it's not advantageous for me to tell my husband about those other five guys. Plus, my husband makes more money than all five of them combined. Yeah, exactly. So thanks to no fault divorce, the husband is in danger in family court. And single men, they're just as vulnerable because if you believe her, when she says you did it and you find out later, it wasn't true. The court says it was your fault that you didn't find out sooner. To me, that was completely asinine. It's crazy. Yeah. Can you tell your story to the men here at the convention? What's their reaction like? Shock? Listen, that can't happen. They're like, man, that's isolated, right? Now I said, listen, man, it has gotten so bad that you know that France passed a law that men can't get a paternity test without the mother's permission. Wild, absolutely wild. I'm like, that is so insane. That's like asking the Fox, who's guarding the henhouse. Hey, you seen any chickens missing with a straight face? The Fox is going to tell you while he's eating some barbecue chicken. Man, I have no idea what happened to those chickens. Yeah. So we're not going to get a hundred percent of the mothers. You know, I'm not conflating issues. I use that parallel to point with the moms. We're not going to get a hundred percent of them to tell the truth. Right. On in my skit that I did on the stage, I talked about how, you know, the woman who I refers to is Cupcake. She could be a teen mom. She could be a young mom, old mom. My experience is women, regardless of their political affiliation, their economic status, young women, rich women, poor women, women across multiple races have all done it. But without fail, they many of them refused to accept personal responsibility for an incident that she caused. Instead, she tries to confuse the issue and say, well, he shouldn't have gotten a test without her knowing about it. It's. So the audience, from what they tell me, they found my presentation somewhat educational, informing and my message about sharing this information so that the trap that exists that few men are aware of. If you expose it, it becomes a lot harder to get men caught in it and boys. And for those that are in it, if they're in one of those states where we've already gotten legislation passed, a way to get out exists, it may need some help in how to use it. Or some of the some of the ways to help to use it. Well, some of the ways is that there's now legislation in those states that says if you get a legal DNA test, there's language in the law that says the court shall vacate the order against you. OK, means you have an avenue now to eliminate this pay or go to jail court order, right for child support for child support. And believe me, these payments are not some small portion of this guy's life. Yeah, a lot. Hey, a guy, let's say a guy who's paying eight hundred dollars a month in child support at over 18 years at 10 percent interest. Man, that's hundreds of thousands of dollars. Do you know what kind of car you can buy when you come to a lot with cash like that? Or better yet, what about if he just wants to take some time off, work on himself, you know, improve himself, make him a better man, up his game? Do you know what you can do spending several hundred grand on yourself to improve your life when you don't have responsibilities for somebody else that you had no hand in creating? When most people tell me, yeah, most people tell me, says, you know, you make some very common sense approaches about this. Who would oppose this? That was my next question. How can you write a law banning a father from finding like in France, finding out whether a child is his? What's the rationale behind that law? My opinion, in those countries and places where they have. Pedestalized women almost to a worship status in France, I dare to say is one of those places. Sure, you know, Europe. Then. They don't place responsibility. And to me, that's almost like treating women as the forever child syndrome. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, hold on, hold on, radical feminists that they wanted equality. That's right. I'm going to make them step up to the plate. You don't get to be the forever child with somebody else looking out and protecting you. You don't want you don't want the patriarchy, then you don't get the benefits of the patriarchy. Yeah, girl, you want to say, go girl, come on, guess what we going to do? Every man and boy who has been accused of causing the problem, he should have the right to confirm it. And if the confirmation says he didn't do it, Cornel Smith believes she should have to make restitution plus damages. And then be required to pursue the person she had our fun with because they're the ones who created the child. They're the ones who had all the fun creating the child. They should get all of the responsibility. Now, what's wrong with that approach? Seems pretty common sense to me. Seems pretty fair. Be careful with people that say you're radical like me. Radical ideas are thousands of years old, apparently, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm happy to be a radical with you. Likewise, I feel like I'm in good company. Yeah, for sure. So what have been your impressions of the convention overall? Overall, there is a great sense to me of the brotherhood and the appeal to help men do better. Help men and boys do better because I think we got to go against a culture that has, to me, has increased its massandric point of view toward men and boys. You know, that lie there propagating about toxic masculinity. I'm unapologetic about being male. I'm unapologetic that as a man, I don't teach my daughter it's okay for her to lie, cheat, and steal just because of a cultural letter. I don't give her that out. I don't tell her, well, say, hey, daughter, you can do whatever you want to and you get to ride on your looks. And son, you got to suck the line and you got to put up with and you need to socialize women, I don't do that. I said they both are accountable. I taught them both. You lie, cheat, steal wrong. You need to work. You need to learn how to master your gift and abilities so that you can be a better you. I'm not the only one from where I talk to people here at the conference. They're doing that same kind of stuff. So it was really easy to connect with people. Have you gotten the chance to talk to any of the women at the 22 convention? Are there speakers there? I know a few of them, but I knew one great lady here. Her name is attorney Melissa Isaac. She's great. Outstanding lady, got chance to meet her on Dad Talk Today when we were at a television studio to record a taping there for Dad Talk Today. And I found out that she also supports many of my viewpoints on helping men and boys not be trapped by law. And her as an attorney, she is skilled in using law and her affirm is a men's rights father's rights attorney law firm. I was like, girl, where were you when I needed to tell you? But I love what she does. I love the fact that she doesn't subscribe to the rad film. She is one of their more vocal opponents. I have mad respect for her and every lady that's like her that says, you know what? We don't want special favors. We want equal treatment, but we also are willing to be equally responsible and equally accountable. I can't have nothing but respect for ladies like her. Amen to that. Where can people go to find out more about you and what you do and learn your story? For people to connect with me, it is a very simple word. ThePaternityCoach.com ThePaternityCoach.com one word and that will connect you to all of my social media Twitter, Instagram, YouTube. If I left one out, it'll be there. It's already there and the national survey that we have for paternity fraud victims. I'm partnering with a sociologist so we want to get feedback from a group that no one ever asked the men boys who have been paternity fraud victims to get feedback from them because there should be social services for them. There should be therapeutic, there should be mental help, there should be some legal help for them. And sad thing is, they pay taxes. Men pay taxes, but there are almost no services in the social construct for men. And when I had a client commit suicide, it furthered my passion to keep doing this. So, ThePaternityCoach.com is how you connect with me. Who knows? I do work with a limited number of people in a consulting capacity. I take a few clients every nine days and if they wanted to explore whether or not that we could connect together for a good fit, who knows? We might work together. Sounds great. Thank you so much for your work and for helping men and for your very brave crusade. A lot to be said when you're facing pay or go to jail. You can be highly motivated. I'm a motivated man for sure. This is Will Spencer from the Renaissance of Men here with the new 21 Report in Carnell Smith. Thanks so much.