 Good morning. Welcome everybody to the 18th meeting of the Education and Culture Committee in 2014. Can I remind everybody, as I always do, that all electronic devices should be switched off because they do interfere with the broadcasting system? For again this morning I just pointed out that we are joined this morning by Liz Smith. Welcome Liz. Also that Joe McAlpine is substituting for Gordon Macdonald this morning who is unable to join us. Minister, before we start from the press reports, this morning can I just offer the committee's Ar y個人io ydi oswad i ddudodol ar y cymaint iawn. Rwy'n rhoi ddim yn bryd liain. Y ddwybod yn ffisholfa yma yn y perbyddaethau sydd mewn awr yn diam i ddedeithu'r Lreif i gyrfryng, yn digwydd yn Ysbytyd ac yn Ysbytyd, yn Ysbytyd, yn Ysbytyd, yn Ysbytyd, yn Ysbytyd ac yn Ysbytyd ac yn Ysbytyd, yn Ysbytyd a'r rherau o ffordd o'r ddechrau ar ona Ysbytyd, yn Ysbytyd ac yn Ysbytyd a'r hwn ysbyty yn y mynd i'n rhan o'r cyfrannu? Mae ymwneud yn ddigon nhw i'r cysylltu'r pryd sefydliadau ac yn yw'r cyfrannu honedd. Ynny'n ymwneud b Celebrian? Dwi'n ddod, mae gydag, yn ymlaen i'r pryd cyfnodd cyntaf, rhyfodraethau o beth yw yn fwy o'r gwirionedd ac yn lludio mwy o gyfrannu. Yn mynd i'n ddwyflwyd a'r ffordd, y Cymraeg yn ddigon nhw ffunon. Rydym wedi eu chyfrannu ardalelwydd yn yddw i'n olygu i gynhyrchu of the Children and Young People Act who are entitled to the mandatory amount of early learning and childcare. Those children are defined as three and four-year-olds starting from the first term after their third birthday, and two-year-olds with a parent in receipt of out-of-work benefits starting from the first term after their second birthday, or the first term after her parents start receiving out-of-work benefits as specified in the instrument. This will come into force for three and four-year-olds from August 2014, except for the two-year-olds with a parent in receipt of qualifying benefits, which will come into legal force from the 31st of October. Now, we've been working very closely with COSLA and local authorities, and all key delivery partners, to ensure that our ambitious timescale of August is met. Our shared assessment of local authority progress with COSLA is that every local authority has plans in place, and is in a very strong position to deliver from August, reflecting considerable momentum and effort, which will continue a pace through the start of the autumn term. We've laid an amended order to make sure that introduction of this provision is more effective with a period until the 31st of October to resolve any outstanding issues around the margins and to ensure that requests for places are met and high quality. We and COSLA are absolutely clear that we fully expect introduction of this provision from the start of the autumn term. We've made that commitment, and we know that parents will have that expectation. Some local authorities have already informed their local populations to that effect, and we've funded the provision on that basis, and we will increase information and publicity over the next few weeks on the basis of an August start. We will continue to work very closely with all key delivery partners to support plans and progress towards implementation. In addition to the revenue and initial capital allocations, we have laid an order subject to negative procedure to suspend temporarily the requirements under the Schools Consultations Scotland Act 2010 on local authorities to consult on establishing new early learning and childcare provision which will come into force on the 28th of June. We've drafted and engaged widely on statutory guidance on the early learning and childcare provisions. We've drafted and engaged widely on national guidance on the concept of early learning and childcare to support good practice and delivery. We've appointed a consultant to work one-to-one with local authorities and with groups of local authorities to address key challenges, such as the particular challenges that arise for local authorities. We've also provided an additional £3.5 million to expand and develop the early learning and childcare workforce, including training and CPD for new and existing staff. The stopping dates and transitional arrangements for starting primary school will continue as they currently operate. While all children who turn five from March before to the February after the autumn term in between those dates when they can start school, those with a birthday in January or February will be entitled to an additional year of early learning and childcare if their parents chooses to wait to the August after their fifth birthday. For others where parents choose to defer local authorities, have a discretionary power to provide an additional year of early learning and childcare which would be based on assessment of wellbeing and need. To conclude, the instrument therefore reflects our priorities to ensure that expansion of early learning and childcare to wider cohorts of children is manageable, is sustainable and of high quality. It focuses on those children who are most vulnerable in the first instance, with additional opportunities to remove barriers to work for parents or create wider opportunities to engage with parents through employment or family support. It also reflects the wide consensus and desire identified through the passage of the bill to expand the entitlement to more vulnerable two-year-olds than most vulnerable specified in the act. I hope that that covers the gist of what we are doing with this origin. I am happy to take questions, which I am sure the committee will have. Can I thank you very much minister for that? I invite members to indicate if any questions they wish to put to the minister. Before I come to that, can I inform the committee that the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee met this morning to examine this order and that they had nothing to report to the Parliament? So it is just for the record that they met this morning that they had nothing to report. Can I begin the question with Mary? Can I just ask the minister how many of the cohort of 3,440 eligible two-year-olds will be guaranteed a place in August? The provision is set out for children who want to and for families who want to take that entitlement to do so, but what we do know from local authorities and through our joint work and our engagement with local authorities and our joint assessment is that all local authorities have plans in place to cater for the children who are part of this expanded cohort and are working very hard to deliver from August. If I could put it in another way, you did say in your opening statement that local authorities are in a very strong position to deliver and they are looking to resolve any outstanding issues around the margins. So can I ask how many local authorities will be delivering childcare for two-year-olds in August and how many will be waiting until November? Again, what I said is what we know is that all local authorities through our joint assessment have plans in place to deliver for the new provision for eligible two-year-olds in August and that was made clear in the joint statement that we released last week. Now the reason why we have caused to believe that there may be issues around the margins for example is that maybe there could be a family move into another local authority and that is a new family with two-year-olds that will need to have cover. So it is these reasons, these unintended and unforeseen issues that local authorities may have to grapple with that we want to make sure that there is maximum flexibility to allow and support local authorities to deliver for those two-year-olds but what we know from the joint assessment is that all local authorities have plans in place for the two-year-olds that are eligible. I'm not sure I'm maybe not asking this clearly but I'm not quite getting the clear reasons for bespawning the implementation of this but can I just convene and ask when the cabinet secretary was before the finance committee on June the fourth he was asked how confident he was that the policy would commence in August and I quote I am entirely confident that we can do that so I'm just really asking what's happened in two weeks where the cabinet secretary was entirely entirely confident that he could deliver two weeks ago and two weeks later it's been postponed for three months and can I just ask has it anything to do with the cost of the policy because COSLA's original estimates were 114 the government's estimate was 41 although that has gone up to 61 but there's still a difference of 50 million between the COSLA estimate and the government estimate is this the reason for the delay there's no delay and I think I've made that very clear in my opening remarks and certainly it's been clear within the statement that was issued last week between COSLA and the government in which there is we are confident about the ability to work with local authorities to ensure we're doing what we can for two-year-olds from August and we're working towards an August implementation date but it's about separating that date from the the legal requirement to do so because we wanted to work with local authorities in a supportive and positive way that we have been through the since the announcement to ensure that local authorities are supported around some of the areas in the margins where which may arise so there is no diminution in the terms of our ability and desire to implement this from August but what we have done through the order of amendment is to provide a transitionary flexibility for local authorities to cope with any issues around the margins which they have described to us may arise issues may arise so issues have not arisen so I'm trying to I'll give you an example there of one family potentially moving into another local authority which might not have been accounted for by the local authority but they would be under a legal duty to provide that if we kept the the august date but what we have now with the delayed amendment and delayed legal enforcement date is provided local authorities with flexibility to allow them to cope with any unforeseen issues that may arise around the margins and that's a direct response of us engaging with COSLA and reflecting within the order what they have told us that they felt they required in order to allow us to deliver this in a positive way for children across scotland so the family's moving families do that all the time I would have thought that I'd been built into the plan but I'll leave it there. The issue in relation to the reasons behind the delay in terms of the legal enforceability of the provision you've set out I think just following up Mary Scanlon's question so to be clear your expectation at this stage is that for all two-year-olds that fall within the eligibility criteria in all local authorities across the country they will be accommodated from august what we're talking about is is perhaps cases of two-year-olds that may move across local authorities between now and then and who are therefore not accounted for at this stage what's I'm using that as a for example of something that might happen which might kind of skew some of the local authorities original planning but certainly what the joint statement last week from COSLA and the government showed is that we are working hard to deliver this and want to work constructively with COSLA but bearing in mind some of the the marginal issues that they have suggested may arise if we had the commencement the legal enforcement date as the start of august and that's why we've moved it to the 31st of october so momentum continues a paste to ensure that this is delivered from the august but we're given that transitionary flexibility to local authorities to allow them to cope with the marginal issues that might arise. There's not a local authority who's saying that even not across its entire jurisdiction but only in certain areas there are problems that will not be resolvable until the end of october this is simply an exercise in ensuring that over that transition period there will not be legal claims brought against councillors for issues that may arise in relation to individual because we have to make you mean they have worked local authorities have worked incredibly hard along with government to try and ensure that we're on track for this and we have a position now a situation where all local authorities have in place plans to cater for the children are created that are covered in this cohort that was announced in january so it's about making sure that that work and that hard work and that those endeavours by local authority are supported through this transition where issues may arise around the margins and that's been the basis of the the conversations that we've had with COSLA's how do we continue that supportive collaborative working to allow and to ensure that local authorities are in the best place to deliver for for children in scotland but the expectation is that this will start from august and we will have that legal enforcement from from from october appreciate that and i fully recognise the work that's been going on in local authorities across the country i know from from the example in in orty some of the challenges have been presented and i don't underestimate that for a second i think this slightly unfortunate thing in the example that's been used about a two-year-old that's moving into local authority areas as Mary Scanlon suggested that conceivably is happening year-round and therefore i supposed to get a better understanding of of why that transition over the three months is required now but will not be required beyond then it would perhaps be helpful to have an indication of how those cases will be treated after the 31st of october where local authorities i think acting perfectly reasonably may be slightly slow to pick up the entitlement of of a two-year-old who's moved into the into the local authority area so i whether there are other examples that could be used that that don't suggest that this is simply going to be a problem ongoing after 31 october would be helpful again you know i just use that as an illustrative example of some of an issue that may present itself for a local authority there will be there will be others there are areas like you have identified your own area which is a rural authority as well where numbers which numbers might be skewed because of a family potentially moving into an area but sometimes these things are requiring of a bit of flexibility to allow local authorities to test and develop their ability to cope with these things and that's why we have that flex there for for local authorities but again you are ready to reiterate local authorities, COSLA and the government are committed to this being in place from august, this is just about extending the the legal enforcement of this by those those additional months so final question coming up i mean i don't know whether any other official wants to to to offer any suggestions in this regard but that from what you're saying that three month period is as much to allow the policy to be road tested in practice as it is about trying to deal with circumstances that that may arise because the example you've used is as Mary Scanlon suggested is is going to be a factor year round from from here on in and therefore doesn't necessarily suggest a kind of logical rationale for delaying at this stage whereas over that three month period there may be things that arise with the best well in the world can't be anticipated now but gives a degree of flexibility to amend the way in which it's applied in its local authority area. I'll go back to Susan who's been engaging with local authorities as well but it's important also to remember that you know for two-year-olds as well with the the ratios that require that that additional two-year-old could could skew things for a local authority they are needing to then look for additional staff and others to cope with that that new family that may move into the area. So there are kind of real and practical difficulties at the margin but Susan will be able to expand on some of the examples that you're requiring. Yeah thanks. Yeah we have worked really closely and consistently with COSLA and local authorities to work out what the challenges and the barriers might be and to provide support and to remove that. I think what we have shared with local authorities we've got really good information on estimated numbers and we've got estimated numbers at ward level and local authorities will have an idea of like free school meal entitlement but I think one of the difficulties is the location of the child because unlike primary school where you have your compulsory so you know your numbers in your catchment areas the system's a bit different so we're working through those issues with the new system with working with the system that we've got so you know it could be and it's also that the local authorities are working at a pace you know they're still going to be working hard over the next few months to overcome all those different issues that they need to for implementation. So I think that's why that would be one example not not just moving in to an area but maybe not quite knowing where those children are located because it's it's a system of self referral so especially again say in a rural authority where you might have a child and you weren't quite sure if that child was where the child was located whether the parent was going to self refer for a place then there might be slight unknown locations and that's one of the complexities that all local authorities will have but numbers will be much smaller in the rural authorities but the children might appear in much more remote areas so it's just giving local authorities it's just working through those issues as we go with local authorities. I appreciate that additional information and I think I understand why this is in place but what you've described again the out-of-catchment the self referral and all the rest of it and the specific issues in rural local authorities like my own all those I understand but none of that is going to change and therefore to some extent there'll be questions as to well why if you delay for three months here are you not going to have problems with that that legal requirement on an ongoing basis because those those factors just won't change over time. Well this is a this has been a joint agreement with local authorities who are confident that this gives them that that additional flexibility to be able to to cope with these marginal issues to work through the ways in which they can cater for the children that may arise that they hadn't before had accounted for so child community childminders all these different options are there in place these different options and that's why we've got Carol Kirk who's working on a one-to-one basis with local authorities to help provide some options for local authorities and work through those options but local government is we're comfortable with the 31st of October as a date for the legal enforcement to come into place but again there's no delay it's just about moving that legal enforcement because from August this will be an entitlement that will be open for two-year-olds across Scotland. I just follow this up a little bit just from own clarity it seems to me that the the difference between the initial period and subsequent years is that effectively the flexibility what the causal are asking for local authorities are asking for if i'm correct is flexibility during the initial implementation phase the setup phase and the unknowns that Susan talked about once you pass that phase once you've got people who are applying you then know roughly the numbers so effectively beyond that you know it's a relatively stable position and people moving around and all that will just be treated in the normal fashion but in the initial phase there are a number of unknowns in the implementation phase and that's why the flexibility is required is that it's my interpretation of what you're saying correct i would i would say yeah absolutely it's a demand less system so there will be a degree there where you have to have that flexibility which is what local authority have have requested and which is why we've worked with them to you know delay the the legal enforcement is important again it's that legal enforcement that's been delayed not the the willingness to have this in place in august for two-year-olds who are announcing the cohort at the start of the year but it's just to deal with the unknowns at the start yeah absolutely again you know i'll refer to the the statement which is about the the margins of of practical issues that may arise okay that thank you for that deal one of the one of the concerns i think local authorities have been raising is length of time for the care inspector to take under undertake checks and inspections on any new facilities or any extensions that will need to be carried out will the care inspector be able to undertake all the necessary checks without diluting those checks before the before the deadlines absolutely the the driver again for this is to make sure that what is provided for these children in their crucial early years is of high quality and certainly from our point of view from government's point of view and also from our agency's point of view triple sc care inspector and others we want to work together to ensure and enable local authorities to deliver that high quality provision that we all expect for our youngest children so we're working to ensure that there's no impediment for local authorities to provide for the two-year-olds that we're wanting to cater for there'll be no shortcuts in terms of checks it'll be the standard checks in place absolutely again this is quality quality is what's driving this forward okay another concern that's been raised is you know obviously talking about new and extending facilities is about planning permission and the lack of confirmed capital revenue for individual local authorities and authorities will only have one or two planning cycles prior to October the 31st can we be sure minister that all planning requirements will be met in time for October the 31st some of that will be the local authorities their discretion but certainly from our point of view again we've been working with local authorities on an individual basis to identify any issues that may arise and if there is an issue with planning then you know they should be making sure that we or carl kirk understand that and maybe susan do you want to add anything about again just to say in discussion with all local authorities even in the last week or two and carl over the last month or two the most local authorities are already in discussions with their their planning departments about what needs to be done over the summer because they're already planning because you know obviously over the summer when buildings are empty is their best time to do that so they're already in discussion with their planning departments sure that that that will not be an issue come in the 31st of October well we also know as well that this this provision is for the discussions we're having around some of the finances for this as well as over the two years to cater for the the additional tranche of children who will come and stream next again year as well so there are immediate and short term issues that councils will have to try and resolve but we know from the from our work with local authorities every local authority has in place plans for the children that are will be entitled to this new provision but of course there'll be other issues that they'll have to deal with and contain with over the the course of the two years which will see the 27% of local of two-year-olds being on stream from from august next year I said that an expansion this year and a planned expansion next year as you mentioned so from financial sense and also from a practical sense of providing any new or extended facilities do you not think that the local authorities should have the capital funds required for that further expansion they they currently they won't get that until 2015-16 so if you're planning an expansion this year and next year should local authorities not have that money just now to plan properly for the two rather than a piecemeal approach bit money here this year bit money next year so they can properly implement this this expansion over the two-year period we're currently engaged with Coesla about the capital cost as well we've we've already invested significantly on this provision that's over over a quarter of a billion pounds has gone on to this and then there's the of course the remaining discussions around the capital costs so we're working with Coesla taking on board some of the points that they have raised come to a robust position on this on the 61 million is the capital cost figure and working hard with local authorities to ensure that we get to a point where we can agree that that money and get get going but you know I think it's also important to recognise that the negotiations around the capital costs haven't stopped work on the ground to ensure that we're in a position to deliver this from August in terms of the eligibility criteria there has been you know obviously some difficulties I think in terms of of working out who's eligible and certain teeth and problems in that regard can I ask how will providers be expected to differentiate between families receiving the contributory job seekers allowance given for the first six months regardless of family income and the income based job seekers allowance which is long-term and based on household income that issue currently exists in terms of free school meal entitlements so local authorities will already be dealing with how they assess the qualifying benefits for free school meals so presumably they would be using the same system that they use for that because free school meals doesn't include contributory benefits I think this is also something that we can do a bit more work with around with DWP just to help advice local authorities how they can check out the evidence of the qualifying criteria so that's stuff that we'll continue to work on but local authorities already do that as a matter of course for free school meals which follows the some of the same benefits obviously there are some complexities to this and I mean in terms of administering that and I know you say that the checks are taking place for free school meals but obviously we're talking about two-year-olds here so that's obviously a different set of children, it's more children. Will what kind of resource support will local authorities get to administer this? Will the Scottish Government be giving extra funds to help with that process? The revenue allocations always included an element of central support costs and some local authorities have employed new managers or even know of one that's a sort of family support worker just to deal with all these issues in their entirety so that's a matter for local authorities how they want to deal with that on an administrative basis. The revenue covers that and we have in close enough communication with all the key agencies to ask what further support advice is needed and we're in a position to give that as well. Thank you, Jane Baxter. Thank you, convener. So are we saying that families who present has been eligible in August will get a place because it sounds as if it's just sort of oversight of families that are perhaps relocated or we're not too sure where they live that this October deferment is about that so is every other child going to get a place in August? It's about delaying the legal enforcement so that's where the legal enforcement comes in in the 31st of October but there is continued a pace to ensure we're in a place to deliver for two-year-olds from August and the statement last week shows that every local authority has in place plans to deliver from August so there won't be the circumstance where an eligible family presents themselves in August and are told to come back in October by the deadline. Again it's going back to the place position where we're delaying the legal enforcement so if local authorities have within their gift the numbers that we've worked through taking on board the issues from DWP and others and have plans in place it's about making sure we're able to deliver for the two-year-olds that we want to from August but the delay is for the legal enforcement so it's about giving them that transition reflexibility to deal with any issues that may arise. Susan Jones. I don't see from talking to local authorities, I don't see any local authorities turning away children if there was an exceptional case or an odd case where they were having difficulties anticipating that place or anticipating difficulties making that placement. I don't see them turning the child away and saying come back in the 31st so work very very actively with that that parent to identify a place, a place that's appropriate so. A number of authorities are struggling to accommodate the children that are currently eligible and these are additional children coming into the system and I just kind of envisage based on my experience of knowing people that are in these situations that the families are going to be asked to come back, come come back when we're near the trigger point for the legal requirement, are they going to get a place in August? No local authority has suggested that they are not doing all that they can and working very hard to ensure that children are going to be cared for from August. Again this is going back to helping local authorities with the transition reflexibility that they say they need by delaying the legal enforcement but there's no delay in the policy intention indeed you know local authorities in Coesla have said you know that very much they're they're they're working hard as hard as they can to deliver on this in a manageable way and is ensuring quality. I very much hope that translates into places for eligible children in August and I look forward to seeing how that turns out. Again that's why you know Carol Kirk has they're working with local authorities to troubleshoot to make sure that there are innovative ways in which we can we can approach this you know community childminders, other ways in which local authorities are using their local resource to cater for the two-year-olds that we wanted to deliver for so you know local authorities I've got the bit between their teeth and they want to deliver this they agree that this policy is right and they agree that they want to do all they can for for two-year-olds who have come on stream from January but this is about the delay in the legal enforcement as opposed to any delay in the policy intention behind this. To ask for an early report about the implementation it hasn't happened yet but we could build it into our programme just to find out how this is going. We'll have that discussion as part of our work programme but I get the point. It's supplementary from Liz Smith on this. Just on this point Minister can we be absolutely clear about this Susan Bolt in an earlier answer to Mary Scanlon said that she was confident that there was good data between the Scottish Government and Coesla about the numbers involved in this. Now it's very clear that there is a cohort of 3440. You must have some estimate of the numbers in August given the policy intention and I understand the point you're making about the legal requirement but you must have an estimate of the numbers who will be provided with their place in August. Can I ask what mathematical modelling has been done for that? We've been working hard with local authorities to identify the numbers we've got the 3400 which will be the two groups and also this is a self-referral demand-led approach as well so there will be a degree of flexibility. Can I just ask about the numbers? I mean this is a flagship policy right which there is very considerable political support for and of course there's very considerable support amongst parents. It's a flagship policy for the Scottish Government. How many places will be guaranteed in August? We have provision there for 3400 children who will be come on stream plus there's the additional two-year-olds who are looked after within the body of the act as well so there'll be around 4000 two-year-olds who will be catered for within the act. And that minister but in terms of the 3440 how many of these places? Okay thank you. Claire Adamson. Thank you minister. I appreciate what you said about cause on UB absolutely committed to this being a manageable sustainable and high quality delivery. Obviously there will be a significant amount of capital change to accommodate capacity in things and because of the nature of education that's going to be done over the summer holidays so we have some any idea how prepared the local authorities are and how confident they are that that capital work can be completed in time. Again going back to the questions earlier we are in continual dialogue with local authorities around the capital costs and we've come to our position which we believe is robust and fair which is a 61 million. We're continuing that dialogue with local authorities but again every local authority has in place plans to do what they can over the next three, two months until the policy comes in force and to ensure that they're in a position where they can deliver on this. So local authorities will have varying different issues that they'll have to contend with but again you know we're engaging with local authorities on an individual basis both at a government level and also through the recent appointment of Carol Kirk to ensure that we can help and support local authorities where they need that support and additional help. Is it not the case that we're working with local authority colleagues to ensure that August is still the start date? It's still the start date. This is purely just for the legal requirements as well and it's working in coalition with our colleagues in COSLA. Absolutely that's exactly the reason why there has been this delay in the legal enforcement but no delay in the momentum to ensure that this is in place from August and that's what local authorities want to do. They believe in this policy as well. Our discussions with COSLA have shown that they want to do what they can for these children as well and that was the ethos behind the statement last week which showed local governments support for this policy. Can I ask at what stage there was a recognition by the Scottish Government that there would have to be an amended SSI and that the legal requirement would have to be changed from August to October? Again an incontinual dialogue with local authorities from Janu since the announcement of the policy and we've been working very hard to try and find ways in which we can resolve some of the issues that local authorities have described that they may face additional challenges and so what we've done now is albeit the timing has been short in terms of the bill if the committee is to cope with this but we were grateful for that but this has been as a result of continual dialogue and positive dialogue with local authorities to resolve some of the challenges that they said they may face in the margins and what is driving this is to make sure that we have in place a policy which is delivering for children and young people across the across the country. At what stage did the minister and cabinet secretary decide that there had to be a change to the proposed legislation? We indicated to the committee by letter. The committee received a letter last week from the cabinet secretary. Okay thank you very much. We want to move on to item two. Item two is the formal debate on the instrument and I invite the minister to speak to and move the motion. I'm formally moved. Do I have to move? Sorry. I move that the education culture committee recommends that the provision of the early learning childcare specified children's Scotland order 2014 draft be approved. Thank you very much minister. Does any member wish to contribute this stage to the debate? No, okay. I won't invite the minister to make any further remarks. I presume you don't have any. I want to put the question to the committee that motion S4M10413 be agreed to. Are we all agreed? We're agreed. Thank you very much. The committee's report to the Parliament on the instrument will confirm the outcome of the debate and can I thank the minister and officials for attending this session. That concludes our business today and I close the meeting.