 Be careful what you wish for That's Jim Carrey from the movie Bruce Almighty talking about his problems with separation It's a topic we talked quite a bit about with today's guest UFO researcher Grant Cameron We go back to the fact that there is just experience That's all there is if you take a look at we talked about the evil alien. Okay, so we say there's evil aliens That's the general impression and if you go and you do the pre-survey You see the 54% of all experienced just say if they were given the chance to have it stop They would say no only 9% say it's evil and 9% is not zero, but it's getting pretty close. There are no victims There are just volunteers. It's all experience. So I appreciate the distinctions. You're making I just I Mean you're saying at some point we have to move to something else. So what are we moving towards? Here's the kicker and the important part for for people who don't believe like so many of the Academics are humanist materialist atheist paradigm and they don't have to deal with any of this shit But for people like you and I who acknowledge an extended consciousness realm when somebody tells me yeah I'm I'm abusing these kids and let me tell you this Spirit being this entity in the extended consciousness realm and he's really into it too And he's bringing all this power into the group and he's doing these physical things And if I do this ritual in a certain way, it brings even more power to me And that's my download. He says that's my experience Welcome to skeptico where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers thinkers and their critics I'm your host Alex to Keras and today we welcome back to skeptico Grant Cameron Grant is without question One of the top UFO researchers in the world. He's well known for his website White House UFOs Where way back in the day he explored the connection between United States presidents and UFOs But in more recent years, he's been tracking down the connection between the UFO phenomenon and consciousness of Course a topic that we are so so interested in on this show. Well Grant is also as many of you know the author of several terrific books I'm showing that some of them up on the screen and from what I understand Grant even has a couple other books in the works that are especially relevant to the topics We're gonna be talking about today. I'm sure we'll hear more about that Grant It's so awesome to always talk to you. It's just amazing the new information you bring forward And I'm looking forward to this one because you know, I kind of teed this up I had an interview with Dolan a while back and you were a part of our discussion and I wanted to kind of thread this into An ongoing just level three kind of discussions. That's really cool to have you here but well, it's honor to be on Alex because In the way that I have done consciousness over the last eight years You too have gone down that road when it really wasn't all that popular is now become sort of like a buzzword But you were there at the beginning and you've taken the same sort of interest in the consciousness aspect to reality as I have So I'm honored to be talking to you Well, you know what's kind of cool is that we kind of came at it from two separate angles that kind of intersect And I have to say you are really one of the people that pulled me Into the UFO world Deeper than I was Going on my own, you know what I mean? So I was down the consciousness path and I was exploring near-death experience At first I was exploring anyone who's listening to show knows this but if they're just popping in, you know I was down the part parapsychology path. But really Let's like look at science is precognition real, you know, because all these Materialist skeptics deniers want to say it isn't and then that led me to near-death experience that led me to extended consciousness medium communication and all the rest this stuff and then Grant Cameron pops along and says hey, wait a minute. I'm saying all these connections between This UFO phenomenon we're talking about in the ET contact experience and consciousness and We talked about that quite extensively in my interview with Richard Dolan Okay, we went over that whole history and he along with me identifies you as one of the key people in Making that startling connection between the Wilbert Smith memo And I won't go over that whole thing with people because we did a whole show on it And you've talked about it many times, but the connection between that and Consciousness so if you want, you know, we could do here I mean, I don't know where to really Start this but Let's start it with you updating us on what's going on in your world And then I'm gonna jump into that Dolan interview and a rather lengthy clip and we can pick up on that Conversation, but Grant I just got you on the phone. How are you doing? What's oh? What's going on in your world? You got a lot of stuff going on as usual. Tell us what's up Lots of stuff is going on. It's the most active period of my life as we are talking about with the consciousness thing it starts with the Consciousness download that I get in 2012 and it's sort of like people who maybe have had a near-death experience I didn't choose to have it. It happened. It flipped me into this world I wasn't intending to go there and then in about 2017 I had a more dramatic lengthy sort of noetic experience where I was given about 24 different things about how the universe worked and it's been sort of High-end Excitement since then the books I'm working on now sort of try to tie everything together So it starts with this Consciousness aspect where I'm told this is all got to do with consciousness and now the books I'm working on more tied together all the stuff you're talking about at the beginning near-death experiences, you know mediums I'm big into physical mediums now and I tie all these elements together So I'm doing a book called contact modalities which should be out momentarily and it basically looks at all the different modalities and yet the concept is that everything is in the field all the information is in the field and various people through the ability to shut down the noise in their brain and whether that's mediums or people who are having out-of-body experiences or Near-death experiences or people who have brain hemorrhages or brain injuries that they're able to pop in the field and grab the material So I've got about 70 different contact modalities and I put them all together The other thing I'm working on I'm working on a book called Extraterrestrial or maybe not and in there I look at I've gotten the Jacques Valet route Where Jacques Valet has always said I'd be very surprised if this turns out to be extraterrestrials I'm going down the same road now where I say it's basically all tied together So what I've been doing just in the last month is I'm tying together Experiences that happen in the spirit world that happen in physical mediumship and in the UFO and they're absolutely identical I'll give you two examples I have an interview that's up on my Facebook page right now or on my White House UFO YouTube channel but the guy by the name of Ron Johnson who's a guy is a Mormon guy out of Salt Lake City area who has this these experiences starting in the 1960s and As part of his UFO experiences he has three dozen out-of-body experiences where he believes that the beings actually take him out And in three of those occasions they take him to the spirit world He goes into the spirit world and he's interacting with his mother in the spirit world And she takes him to a building in the spirit world She says Ron when you die because he's got very advanced heart disease when you die when you come here You're going to get a room in this building So he says I go into the building and he says I'm surprised It's way bigger on the inside of the building that isn't on the outside of the building now as soon as he said that I said That's UFO stuff Chris Bledsoe who's now sort of becoming a very famous experience in the UFO world At one point told me that he had flown the craft and you fly the craft with your mind It's done Telepathically you become one with the craft the craft is alive and during that interview I said tell me I want you to start from the beginning go to the end and I want you to tell me How do you fly a craft? So he starts and he says well the object is on the ground. It's shaped like an egg It has this sort of a doorway. I go in and he says I suddenly realize it's way bigger on the inside of the craft It is on the outside and he goes in but looks back out and it's small He looks inside and it's way bigger. It's identical story And it's not kind of a story you're gonna make up if you're gonna try to make something up The other story and to give you the example Ron Johnson tells me when he's in this in this building with his mother in the spirit world She takes him and she shows him this table with crystals on it And she tells him the story that all these crystals are the stories of people's lives And so you look into the crystal at a certain angle and you can see your entire life 3d back as far as you want to go and he takes a look at his dog's crystal But his crystal his dog comes up and he looks at his dog and he sees how his dog died He didn't know how the dog died and he realized that it had been shot by the neighbor So he's and he said my crystal doesn't come up until I'm in the spirit world. So he's telling this story Okay, now we go back and we look at a 1988 documentary UFO documentary called UFO cover-up live Which is always rumored to be a documentary where the CIA was dropping stuff into UFO community It's then in the final days of the Reagan administration and during that documentary they talk Richard Dodie Who's the Falcon who's now becoming sort of famous this Richard Dodie guy says the most amazing thing I saw of all the evidence I saw was an octagonal crystal that the aliens held and they held this crystal up And you looked at it at a certain angle and you could see the entire history of the whole world The rumor back in the 1980s when this story was going around is that they had actually shown the US government the crucifixion of Jesus Christ And this crystal it's the same story you go to Michael Newton Michael Newton says in the spirit world You're in the light between lives people are looking at the books He says you open up the book and there's a crystal in it and you look at a certain angle at the crystal and you plan your future lives You can see your past lives you go all that so these are the connections that we're starting to make and there's so many connections Where I'm starting to say I don't really know if this is ET This may be just spirits higher self whatever who are putting on a different mask because now we're in the Now we're in the space age and if you take a look you have I'm doing people with light language now these people who can speak these weird light languages and people who can speak 20 of them It all hasn't happened for 10 the last 10 years no more than that. I go and people are dealing with reptilians I say what was the first reptilian experience? 1988 when was the first gray experience? 1961 with Betty and Barney Hill and they were wearing hats and you see these bizarre things and you're going like Maybe this isn't alien at all Maybe this is just because we're in the space age They've come in and portrayed themselves as aliens and it's because it's basically the same message that you're gonna get in near death Experiences in people who are claiming they're talking to soul guides who are talking to their higher self people who are channeling It's the same message coming through all these different entities Okay Excellent way to tee it up and I'm tempted so tempted to jump in there on like a million different points But I'm gonna hold on for a minute. I want to play the Dolan clip and then Then we'll pick up the conversation because I have a couple of interesting little Paths to take us down. Sure and I'm with Grant in the sense that and I'm with Chris Bledsoe in the sense that I don't think that it's all negative but I'm not with I Don't know. I don't know where Grant stands on this actually, but I wouldn't be with him if he were to say It's all positive. I don't believe that. I mean Stephen Gray would say it's all positive to and I strongly disagree with that I think that's just foolish So I think you know, that's almost to me the third dimension of it because I want to recap what you talked about which I find so intriguing the first Dimension isn't the proper word forgive me But the first question that pops to mind is what is the interface with our physical reality? Yeah, because we're interested in that we have this kind of curious engineering mind How did he make the lights shift like right? The second I think right question that pops up is what is the technology of the consciousness? Interface and I think that's particularly interesting because when we look at ET and you start looking at the cases There's clearly as Grant pointed out in that clip we played from the 1950s. We understood There's mental telepathy is the means of communication with a little shit We don't know how to do that But apparently they do and they have it like a app on their iPhone So there's a technology component to consciousness that we just totally don't get and it also relates to this time space thing that we Won't get But then the third dimension of it which you just just touched on and I think it's so Fascinating and I really want to get to it because it gets to the heart of the video that you did with Tracy And that's the good Versus evil the moral imperative it's so challenging because we've all gone through you know You said you went through an atheistic phase any thinking person doesn't go through an atheistic phase Because most of us are fed with this kind of narrow Christian dog Mog you get on the arc kind of stuff, but when we Blast past that we're still faced with is there good and bad and how does that work? You've talked about Grant let me play what Grant has to say about that and then I want to get your take and then I'll There's good and bad there is a moral difference You know take the most extreme example The guy who's taking little kids and cutting them up and selling their body parts and sexually molesting them that in my Mind is is bad. It's evil And then there were there's a bunch of shades in between and then there are some really holy good people that I don't know how they do it, but they keep all their shit together and they really do it Well, how's your universe? Is there good and bad because some people in the consciousness camp say well There's really no good and bad at all just kind of you know Well if you go to the noon stuff, no if you get into reincarnation It's all experienced if you because what the mistake you make is you did it in that sentence You say okay. This is guys to cut up little people or whatever, okay, and then there's these good people who? Basically have it all together and I would go to don't I have to quote the Bible But we with the whole thing with the prostitute Jesus said late he who's perfect cast the first stone all you have you do not have good people And bad people you do not have good aliens Okay, that was all did you you heard all that right sure. Yeah, okay, so Long clip it she horns us right into an ongoing kind of discussion you pick it up for your month Okay, I guess the good the good evil thing. I have not changed my position. This is this is like a religious Dogma good versus evil. It's a scientific religious superstition that there's there's positive negative Basically, we go back to the fact that there is just experience. That's all there is if you take a look at We talked about the evil alien. Okay, so we say there's evil aliens. That's the general impression And if you go and you do the free survey, you see the 54 percent of all experienced You say if they were given the chance to have it stopped they would say no Only 9% say it's evil and 9% is not zero But it's getting pretty close and when Ray Hernandez went back and interviewed those 9% Basically the vast majority of them said what why do you think they're evil and this said because they scared to live in Daylights out of me they were tall 8 foot tall reptilians in their bedroom or whatever and that was being raced That's it. That's basically why you're calling them evil and they said yeah, that's basically it They're in in the in the real world in in ice I say the word the way the world works is the universe is neutral and if we get these dogmas We get these belief systems about good and bad and separation. There is only one thing It is all one thing and we move into duality We create these little worlds where we're the good guy and then there's bad guys and then you can take a look at Little children the pedophile thing. So I would say to you. Okay, you and I I was in I'm in Canada You're in the United States in World War two We thought we were saving the world and we went to Germany and we were fighting Hitler and we invented this technique in 1942 where we started these fire bombings where we created this this firestorm Where we cremated 25,000 people in one night now if you say pedophilia is 10 out of 10 Where does dropping in a bomb and and cremating 25,000 people alive go where it is dropping two atomic bombs It's all 10 out of 10. I will agree There are things that are that are that are good things that are bad But in the end if you take a look you Google Near-death experience and a Google Oneness and a video will pop up of a woman who will talk about the fact that she had a vision So she has this near-death experience you can say okay She had this near-death experience and we believe all this and then she starts talking about the vision she had There are no victims. There are only volunteers. I have got a number of people who have told me identical stories Having near-death experiences. There are no victims. There are just volunteers. It's all experience the idea we have to kind of step back because if consciousness is primary if Consciousness is fundamental like you and I both Believe that it is and the best science keeps coming back and saying gee every time we run the double slit experiment Every time we run all its consciousness is fundamental Okay, so then this whole discussion is kind of moot to a certain at point because it's all just Droplets in the ocean and that we're identifying as waves or foam or currents or all this. It's just ocean But at some point we have to we have discernment we have to start making these distinctions So I appreciate the distinctions you're making. I just What we have to like I mean you're saying at some point we have to move to something else. So what are we moving towards? Well, I didn't mean it that way if that word threw you off in terms of distinctions I'm talking about what you're saying the conclusions that you're making are some distinctions Within the ocean right because if it's an ocean of consciousness, there's really nothing to talk about it all is one But we are interested as human beings and as people who are trying to figure out What is the right thing to do with our lives and our time and our energy? We're making distinctions and reading Interpreting stories a particular way. So I'm gonna challenge you on a couple of things that you said because we're You know, there's few people who I feel have such a deep grasp of this thing Like you do so it's super great opportunity. I don't want people to think I'm like getting in your face here But it's a skeptical kind of thing. I'm changing it. So here that here the problems I have with it one is I kind of feel sometimes like you're kind of Jumping on the data one way when the data really is I read it Comes back the other way. I like how you Reference Michael Newton and then are you familiar with rich martini? Oh, absolutely sure. Okay, so rich martini since Michael Newton has passed on He's the between lives researcher and martini actually got to interview him for this movie that he did flipside And he has since interviewed many many people who have both Facilitated these between live regressions and have participated in them And I don't take every one of those stories as gospel because you can't you know that, you know, you know Yeah, well, why not? I mean, let me finish Grant Yeah, because here's the point that you're just completely glossing over you're suggesting that that research suggests that there's no judgment but the martini documents in his film with Experiencers that it's just the opposite. They definitely felt Like I like to call it a hierarchy of consciousness a moral imperative good and bad You know one of the most for anyone who's watched that film one of the most compelling scenes is a woman who is being led Goes back to a past life memory of her being in the Nazi concentration camps and being led to The gas chamber and she thinks about resisting and then she says no I'm with my people This is the path that I have to play This is the role that I have to play in this but at the same time she feels the weight and burden that her perpetrators will have to carry in working out the deeds that they're doing Embedded in all that grant is a judgment is a moral imperative is a good is a bad This is the thing to do. This is not the thing to do is that my actions matter That is central to the near-death experience if you look at it, you know Jeff long, you know Jeff long He's not trying to help you guys in the free organization Clearly and you know from my interviews. I've talked to him Overwhelmingly the message is that there is a moral imperative. There is good. There is bad There is a hierarchy. There are choices. It's not judgmental in the old-fashioned Bible Christian thumper dogmatic. I decide who goes to hell thing. It's more your soul's journey in Deciding what is discernment again deciding? What is the path? What is the good thing? But this idea of this there's no good. There's no evil. It's all just kind of a blob of consciousness Completely flies in the face of the between lives data and the near-death experience data as well as the after-death Communication data, you know, and I have good research on that But it comes back over and over again that there's good things to do and there's bad things to do and there's Consequences and the consequences are your own consequences in terms of what that how you will judge that later on Okay, the way I see my Newton and I've studied Newton as much as anybody is that when you have the life review it is you basically reviewing your own life and That everybody is asked only one question. How did it work out because you set up the play you set up the Volunteered for this you volunteered for that. We did this we did that and everybody says the same five word answer I could have done better. I forgot to do this. I was gonna do that and and So when you when you when you get down to the whole thing my definition of evil and there is evil My definition of evil is all that we consider to be evil in the modern world is the mistaken belief in separation Once you believe you are separate then things become objects we can do whatever we want and We we do these things and when we have the judgment thing we realize Oh, we should have done that should have done this and I say that in the end We're judging people say whatever whatever we have we have a problem with this person and in the end I simply believe according to Newton that you if you do not understand this person's position You're gonna come back in that position to have empathy and understanding. We can go to if you want to do scientific evidence We go to Jill Balti Taylor PhD neuroanatomist no stupid woman who has the left-brain hemorrhage and she says that all of the idea of separation Comes from a little area the size of a peanut in your left brain and she said when those Windows those neurons go offline as hers did when it was flooded with blood. She suddenly realized I Am not separate the I am not there is no ego. There is no I I am one with the universe and the idea that you are separate from everybody else in the universe is an Illusion and she says it quite clearly if you listen to her interviews and her Ted talks that it's just an illusion that you think It's like do you think the world is flat? You think the world is coming around the more evidence you get the more you realize That it's all It's all one thing and when you believe you're separate that I'm better than this person. I can use them I can use objects. I can chop down the last tree get the last fish out of the ocean It really doesn't matter. They're just objects. I'm separate from them Once you believe that that you are one then you become like the Italian standing on the on their deck with their little cell Phones all singing as one that we have to realize that we are one We are all together and and if we do not realize that we are that we are one and that we are separate And we're gonna have me versus you good versus bad. We're going to destroy the world It's all over except for the screaming and crying as far as I'm concerned Okay, I have to say grant you've you've really been a key part of This ongoing dialogue that I've been generating these series of shows that I've been generating on the nature of evil and Your voice inside my head has been ongoing because I agree You know philosophically and spiritually with so many of the things that you're saying But I just think you're making some distinctions a little bit differently Well quite a bit differently than I would make and it relates again to this ocean of consciousness That then becomes a blob of consciousness Here's where I'm coming from and let's see if I can corral you into this ongoing discussion. I've had Extended consciousness is something that you and I are both Comfortable with we're comfortable with the notion you're referring to contact modalities. I would kind of almost merge that with my What I'm calling extended consciousness So the shamanic journey guy goes and licks the toad and as a DMT experience He's in extended consciousness the ET Experiencer is on board a ship, but as you can see his body down there He's an extended consciousness near-death experiencers Same thing, you know, well extended consciousness again, and I think you're calling that contact modalities Here's a point that I think is interesting that I haven't heard a lot of people explore and that is my contention that evil is A lens through which we can explore extended consciousness in a very real way So I just popped up on the screen some of the people I've been interviewing about This evil and I do it not because I'm particularly interested in evil or I'm particularly interested in Satanic ritual abuse, which is one of the topics that I cover but take satanic ritual abuse really interesting topic And I can bring back some of the people that I had up on the screen there But Annika Lucas is interesting because she's six years old When her mother sells her into slavery with a cult that turns out to be in Belgium This is unfortunately turns out to be a satanic cult that not only sexually abuses rapes these kids but then murders them and This is reported over and over again So I have various other interviews with a bunch of people that Confirm this and there's studies that confirm this and there's a Brown University scholar Who's done research on it and I have up on the screen Bob Hammer who's 20 years FBI Undercover agent who went in an infiltrated Mambla who is organized a pedophile ring that's organizing these Expeditions where these 50 year old men can rate these young boys the reason I go into all that is two points One is with anyone's sensibility anyone you'll talk to they say that is that is evil in just kind of the way That I would understand evil, but here's the kicker Here's the kicker and the important part that everyone's in my opinion seems to be looking past In the case of satanic ritual abuse These folks are actively seeking Connection with the extended consciousness realms and beings in those extended consciousness realms in order to Further carry out the deeds now is that connection what they're getting out of that connection? We can only listen to what they say, but the fact see for people who don't believe You know like so many of the academics, you know like boy shit It doesn't matter what people believe about the extended consciousness realm because the extended consciousness realm doesn't exist So it's all just crazy belief system. It's why people believe weird things Because they're locked in to their materialist paradigm They're humanist materialist atheist paradigm and they don't have to deal with any of this shit But for people like you and I who acknowledge an extended consciousness realm when somebody tells me yeah I'm I'm abusing these kids and let me tell you this Spirit being this entity in the extended consciousness realm and he's really into it too And he's bringing all this power into the group and he's doing these physical things And if I do this ritual in a certain way, it brings even more power to me into me and that's my download He says that's my experience. It's not just about me in this realm. It's about me connecting with that extended realm That is the lens Grant that I would suggest Catapults this into a whole different way that we have to look at it and understand it and let me jump in there with one more Really important point. I have no idea how it works. I don't understand the mind of God I don't have a map of extended consciousness realms to be able to say this means this and this means that But that data does compel me to consider this evil question much more Interdimensionally, then I think most people are looking at it Okay, you said a lot of stuff. I mean when it comes to extended human consciousness I would maybe see a little bit different. It's all consciousness There's no us and then extended consciousness It's all just consciousness and it's the ability to get into the consciousness by shutting down the left brain shutting down the rational analytical brain So it's all I don't want to interrupt you too much but see this is part of the discussion that that hey I'm with you we can go to see if consciousness and then we can just shut down and have the discussion But you just talked about 40 contact modalities that that implicit in that is this idea that there is this extended Consciousness realm that we connect to and I'm just defining how I see it that it's all consciousness and that we use We shut down the left rational analytical brain and we can pop in through these different modalities so you get into the to the to this whole thing and The expression that that I've heard is if you're higher self if you believe that there's a devil and There's Satan your higher self will come as the devil because if it comes as anything else You're not going to so whatever it is you want to manifest in your little consciousness realm You can manifest you can manifest good. You can manifest evil. There's an experiment. There's done in the 1970s in Toronto It's called a Philip experiment that where they create the ghost where they actually create a ghost and they make up this story about this goes from the 16th century and then they start doing the Meditation thing and they can't get it to work and then they start going into say-on thing and they actually produce this ghost That actually responds and levitates tables and all it does all this stuff So what I would say is that everything that you do you're manifesting and as much as we can build a building in the spiritual world And that anything that is negative there we have manifested we have created because it's just us. There is just one There is just me there is not me and then extended consciousness It's just me and I manifest and we have built these worlds. So if you commit suicide, you're gonna leave a very negative Energy and my question to you is be do you think that all these people who do these very evil things at five years old have decided? I think I'm gonna grow up and I'm gonna be a pedophile and I'm gonna molest little children and kill them and stuff like that People don't it's the same as when I went to a homeless shelter I work in a homeless shelter and they said take a look these people did not decide to be here and homeless And I think you're just setting yourself up that you could go to the world and you say Alex after your thing You had a real problem with these pedophiles. Maybe what you should do We're gonna send you back to be one of these pedophiles You can have understanding and then and understand why these people went down this road because people go down all sorts of roads homelessness alcohol all sorts of things And nobody intends to do it. It just happens You're just saying things that kind of contradict each other I mean yeah, you are because it's like on one hand You're saying that you know none of these experiences really matter because we manifest them all and we can manifest Whatever we want and then you tell stories which I mean look maybe that came out the wrong way is too negative because this is all Impossible I think in for us to fully understand or even partially understand with our limited brain I'm never gonna figure this out. I don't know but like you know the story you told early on about the crystals And then you felt like there was some kind of confirmation in the 1988 UFO film with Dodie in it and the crystal and you talked about that thing like it's real, right? I Why would but why do you feel like that's real and then all this other stuff is just manifestation? You know, I just listened to an interview. I interviewed not too long ago Rob and Trish McGregor who are two really interesting people a fantastically successful authors written like a hundred books between them Rob has written all the books for Lucas with the Star Wars books Anyways, he just published this interview because in the interview I had with him He told me about this guy in Texas West Meeks This guy is a former police officer in Texas one of the people you kind of trust He's talks about incredible Out of body experiences and he talks about physically all the out of body thing being out of body Seeing things that are going on at a very young age being able to follow his brother as he went to the bathroom at night And see him turn on the light, you know, and then later in life He has the out of body experiences. He travels to the spiritual realm. Yep He sees the Akashic records now He sees the Akashic records different than I've heard anyone else see him Different jars and stuff like that. He meets this woman this woman shifts and he has this incredible sexual experience with this woman I mean, so that doesn't immediately Like throw this thing out the window, but if you listen to the whole account, you're like Well, that doesn't exactly jive with every other account. I've heard of the Akashic records So you're kind of forced to go go ahead No, because what you're doing is you're manifesting so all the accounts in the spirit world are gonna have some variation Because you're creating it. It's not like we're here and then there's this spirit world To the contact modalities I do our number one lucid dreaming and I do the psychedelic stuff with John Hopkins The psilocybin stuff and they both say the same thing They both say that you are creating you're manifesting in that world and that things are all symbolic So in the in the the the thing with that done a Stanford with the Lucid dream stuff if you come up against the evil alien or the evil devil and this is told quite clearly when you come up against it If you go and you treat it with unconditional love and you give it a big hug and kiss It will turn into a positive being and give a positive message So it is all manifestation when we go in when my friend goes into the spirit world with his mother That's all manifestation. There is no there is no Physical things. There's no time and space. There's no physical thing. It is all early stuff We are creating it all with our brain So when you go into the physical world all the accounts of the Akashic records all the accounts are gonna have some sort of Variation because it's us that are manifesting even if you look at the Newton stuff when people know the hang on when people are Newton asks them the question when you are in the spirit world and you meet somebody How do you know which body to present to that other person because you've lived a thousand different lives? And he said it depends upon who I'm talking to I can screen as images Whatever I want based upon the life I had with that person. It's all manifestation. It's all early stuff It's all created. There is no out there world. There is no spirit world. It's all us creating this thing through our our Consciousness we are all one we come in we make the separation and we build this world based out of consciousness It's not like there's consciousness and then there's the spirit world and there's consciousness and there's a physical world It's all consciousness. It's all created by consciousness I'm with you to to a certain extent to a large extent. I am except then you're saying there's a Spirit world that has these attributes. No, it's all Well, but but you were saying a minute ago about how the planet is doomed unless we get together and start hugging trees or not Plastic bottles. This is all manifested reality. What why are you? Why do you feel so comfortable making these judgments? I've heard you make I heard you make judgments that the that the ET is Basically more liberal in their politics than conservative That's absurd It's absurd to say all the things that you're saying Something that's capitalist about an alien Look the whole I could pick tons of cases Richard Dodie who you cited a minute ago is completely entrenched in the in the machine in whatever the game is that's being played in terms of I mean You got me scrambling because it's just so obvious and apparent the the PSY op that's been run And you've talked about in terms of disclosure All those guys are not playing the game that you're that you're talking about They're they're playing a different game. They're playing the control game. They're playing the the fear game They're playing the disinformation separation game They're in separation. They're in us versus them. We're military There's bad guys around the world and we need to develop this to create some weapons They're in this operation and you're against that and you're saying you're against that I'm against separation Absolutely, I'm into one against it then you're in the duality my friend Where man duality you're in the duality I'll tell you a story I heard that I thought was extremely Relevant to this and it's a very touching story I heard it through that the Dalai Lama reports that when the evil horrible Communist Chinese came in and overran Tibet and they did they took this little country and they just Took it over right in the 19th as we did to north vietnam. Yeah Yeah, and then they dragged the monks out in the street and they made them fornicate in the street just to show hey As we probably did in vietnam. Yeah We're we're atheist and and we want to show You how your beliefs don't hold up to the barrel of a gun So this one monk went through this horrible experience and imprisonment With the chinese The evil chinese i'm gonna throw that in just to kind of rally up a little bit And then in separation. Yeah, he comes back and he's recounting his things and he goes It was horrible. I I experienced great great great danger And they said wow you really thought you were gonna die at some point and he said no I thought at some point I would lose my compassion I would lose my ability to See that there is no separation Right. So I would suggest to you that you cannot At the same time oppose this group or oppose this what you see is capitalistic or inside outside And then say oh no because it's all about consciousness and it's all about no separation But i'm not being separate. I just know these No, I I I go along with it I say that everybody's going to be the six six year old girl in a cage Everybody's going to be floating around the Mediterranean learning to drown Everybody's going to wander the world. We don't get to be the rich guy in in america every single time We don't get to be have the good life. Everybody's going to get to play all the different roles. So if you don't know that I mean, you don't know that that's fine. You don't know that in general. I get what you're saying But you the data doesn't like exactly conform To what you're saying the newton data absolutely conforms. That's what new i already told you how you're misinterpreting the newton data and the newton data is all about Making good choices so that you can somehow That there is an active process of transmuting This evil if you will that it is our job our mission in this soul journey to do better We don't just we don't just like you're saying, you know, well, you're going to come back as a pedophile and you're going to experience that No, when you come back as a pedophile, I would suggest My read of the newton data is you do what the person who rescued anica lucas out of certain murder Did and that's that that person Rescued her rescued that 10 year old girl who was going to be killed because they had used her To the extent that they didn't want her to escape and reveal their satanic ritual abuse plot And even though he was a perpetrator He pulled her out of that whore. He paid for it with his life. He was later killed but he did in that act something that propelled his soul forward So there is good There is evil There is choice and we make those choices all the time And to diminish that or to not see that is to miss the whole point of the thing The whole point is oneness versus separation that when you believe in separation You will do evil and if you want to get rid of the evil You have to go to oneness if you believe that you and I are actually the same person when I look in your eyes I'm looking in my own eyes Then how can you do evil? How can I kill you? How can I do whatever? It's the belief in separation that these people are objects that that whether it's the communist chinese Whether it's richard dodie everybody's into their thing of separation where it's me versus That the the people outside the country or I need more stuff And it's always separation that is the thing and all evil I maintain will disappear if you suddenly realize that everything is separate everything's a lot everything's one Almost like jill bolt detailer said I'm one with the universe there. I'm not an individual that was an illusion Once you realize that you're part of the universe Then you become like the italians where you're sitting there singing and you're trying to survive together And it brings people together when you believe that you're separate and that I am better than you and I'm special Then that's when evil takes place because we start treating people like like objects And we we we move away separation is the basic Mistake and belief in separation. So even though these people may believe in separation It doesn't exist just because people believe separation exists. It doesn't exist Yeah We just keep repeating ourselves I I guess I'll I'll pull back to to one point to see if we can kind of nail this down And then we don't have to just keep hammering on it But and and I have to again repeat that, you know, it's kind of funny because it's ongoing dialogue Even if it looks like we are arguing a bit has moved me forward has propelled me forward because what I think is interesting About the satanic ritual abuse stuff is that it's a clear example where Evil is trying to connect with evil in the extended consciousness realm And I think unless we look at that objectively and say oh, okay That seems to be highly suggestive of the idea that we we have to resolve inside in my opinion We have to resolve relative to the near-death experience data and the afterlife Or i'm sorry and the between lives michael newton data and that is there seem to be entities that are not actively trying to advance their soul in this kind of time frame that we're in They're in that other realm and it's a as below so above world where We all understand that we can look in this world and see People who choose to do horrible things to Each other and to themselves But now I think we have to face the evidence that somehow or another in this extended realm Which is vast and multi-layered there seem to be entities that are Of that of that ilk and we've seen them throughout history and we don't really understand them I stand with you and that I don't think that is the That is the part of the picture that we need to focus on and I think we can Transcend that I think we can transmute that I think we can we can also actively Not include it as part of our thing But I kind of hear a little bit of a denial that there is even that that reality There is no separation. There are no evil people out there Who have that that are separate from the consciousness. There may be beings out there. There may be demons Okay demons, so there may be there may be Beings out there who like us have believed in separation And people will bring up the evil aliens. So I say, okay evil aliens. Have they dropped an atomic bomb yet? I mean if there are these evil aliens out there I mean have they done this have they cremated in this the firestorm of 1945 Over tokyo where we dropped it on the civilian areas and we cremated 80 000 people in two nights alive civilians Have they done anything like this yet? So we can say oh, there's these people Keep bringing that up. Why do you keep bringing that up as if that's as if that's significant because we're separating ourselves We're saying there's these evil things. We're the good guys. We're we've done everything. We're the we're the light on the hill We're I'm not saying nobody's good enough to go to heaven. Nobody's bad enough to go to hell We're all just floating around in between in reincarnation learning None the bible says all of sin didn't fall short of the glory god Judge not that you be not judged it goes over and over and over you there is no separation There are people who have Gotten into the belief of separation. That's where evil comes from end of story Yeah, I always like when people say end of story That is the bottom line Okay, to you it's the bottom line To me so you could bring up pedophiles. I'll bring up fire bombings and atomic bombs And the things that we've got we got people in guantanamo bay 20 years without trial and without charges Like we think we've got this thing Everybody has sinned and fallen short of the glory god and it all comes from the belief in separation when you believe There are terrorists who do not do not have rights and you you can treat them as animals and as as objects The belief in separation are your enemy your enemy is you we are all the same thing I I don't think that but I I don't understand How how you are so you feel so comfortable making these discernments these judgments, but when other people make similar kind of judgments, then you you Immediately dismiss that that none of that can possibly be important or meaningful those judgments because it's all about the single issue of separation The separation part as I explained at the beginning we are in sync It that is an ocean of consciousness ultimately that's what the data comes back and says What we're trying to understand is the nature of All the steps in between that ocean all the waves all the foam on the sea all the Deep waters of it and if you don't want to make those distinctions, then don't make them at all But I don't see how you can you know Want to make and hold on to your distinctions about contact modalities and about crystals that review lives But you're uncomfortable with the distinctions that i'm making that are drawn from a lot of the same data Part of the download I got is there are no nouns as soon as you start saying there's this there's that there's this That is scientific religious superstition. That is creating nouns. There is only Consciousness there is one thing it's all consciousness and it will all unravel at some point in in in the future Everything's going to move towards the good Everybody is just lost anybody who's doing evil is believing in in separation And that's to me. It's the bottom line. It's all consciousness. It's a verb There are no nouns when you start getting nouns you you try to you know This person that person this thing that thing it's all just it's all just a sea of consciousness And we manifest in that sea of consciousness that we can create good things we can create bad things We are creating it all in consciousness and the bad is created by the belief in separation that you and I are separate Then how is the good created? You know one of the things there is no good. There is no bad. There's just consciousness Noun you keep going to scientific religious superstitions all the time you keep going to nouns. There are no nouns. It's just consciousness Grant you realized that one minute ago. I can replay the tape They said there's good and then there's bad and bad is perceived good and bad perceived good and bad things That move this way that way negative energy positive energy, but it's all still just energy It's all still just consciousness the good the bad is all created by consciousness There's no good and bad separate from consciousness. It's all consciousness. All right We'll wrap this up But I want to play one more clip for you because it's a case that you are very Have been very involved in and are very knowledgeable of and it's the chris bledzo story Richard doland did an excellent series of interviews with chris Here is a clip from that and the church don't want to believe it. They think it's demonic The move fun and the above world rejected it because of these individuals that were controlling the thing and Here i'm stuck and i've got these Entities telling me You got to tell your story You got to tell your story tell what you know and I told move fun. I believe there were angels I'll just put it right out there and to do today. I'm pretty sure that's what we're experiencing Maybe i'm wrong, but I don't think so Okay, there it is So grant tell us because you have a history of Being with chris. You guys have a friendship. You are a researcher of that case Give people a little background who he is and then your interpretation of what he's saying Okay chris. That was a big time business guy in in north carolina had his experience in 2007 sort of an awakening experience He's him and four other people including his son. He sort of falls off the edge of the earth He's very depressed. His wife tells him. You're not going to talk about this to me. You're not talking to the kids about it He's in a southern baptist pentecostal area. He says basically nobody that he works for will ever talk to him His in-laws have nothing to do with him And he basically sits for nine months in a room and basically prays to god to take him away that I can't take this and And then he has an experience with what he called what he I think he calls the lady in light I call it the shining lady has like an angelic type experience on almost exactly the same day when I have my download experience in 2012 He has this encounter with this shining lady And so he interprets his experience based upon uh, biblical stuff, which I would tend to agree And he basically is pointing out the fact that he believes it's a positive phenomena It's he's he's relating it back to a religious Interpretation based upon this woman that it's angelic But he's basically seeing it as a as a positive experience And there was some some weird things that happened with him and me with this dog Bizarre thing with the dog bleeding and stuff I got So some of the stuff could be interpreted as kind of negative stuff But he basically looks at it as an angelic experience and he's here like a messiah to deliver a message to the world Let's add a couple other Interesting points here one and you covered this but you kind of went over it quickly Chris's experience has multiple witnesses. He didn't just experience this once And he didn't just experience this all by himself. So that's significant He's invited a number of very respectable Researchers including yourself To investigate this with him and they've all kind of come to the same conclusion This is an outstanding case in terms of evidential value He's a guy that we would call like a a high level contactee And so what has happened is he has been contacted by a whole series of people Trying to find out why have you got this contact? Who are you talking to? And these include people like jim semi van who was a top Guy inside the cia I think ran covert ops for two years and jim semi van had the beings in his room as well And so he went to chris to try to find out You know, who is he dealing with what's going on here? And he's had even he showed me at one point to show you how high level these people may be Who are trying to tap into chris to figure it out because that's what that's my impression This the government may have crashes material that may have bodies But they have no idea what's going on because it's got to do with consciousness. It's way above their pay grade And so he showed me at one point a medal that He had gotten and I said to him. I said, well, what's this medal? Would you get this medallion from and he said I can't tell I can just tell you where it came from And he flips the screen on his cell phone and it's a it's a mailing envelope from camp david And then he shows me he talks about healing people And you'll see that with the ufo experiences 50 percent of all Experiencers claim that they were healed or that they can heal other people chris is By far and away one of the best sort of known healers There was people sending him clothes and and he became sort of very famous for this ability to heal and he has He has almost constant contact He can you can go to his place and he will call them in and they will appear and that's why The government and the military and all these people have so much interest in him Is they're trying to figure out what's different with this guy? How is he able to make contact and who is he actually dealing with? What are your answers to that question because in some ways that does seem to fly in the face of your It's only about separation kind of thing We now have all these different actors and players involved and you're kind of saying good and evil and angels and Healing and all that stuff and then we can also in chris's story also includes the kind of Nefarious Not so nice. I mean he really gets raked over the coals by mufan It's a highly deceptive practice that they used to try and discredit him There's some other players involved here that are clearly opposing What he's doing so you can make of that what you may but that's the part of the story as well Well, all the human figures are in separation. So whatever their thing is their mufan is into Getting technology there into he's a bad guy. He failed a lie detector test The government is into the same thing. These could be evil aliens They could be here to eat us or whatever and so they're looking and everybody's playing their own little thing based upon separation but it comes down to What did he experience and his experience was a positive experience? he believed that these these beings are here to help them and I basically will say that his interpretation of what he sees Will be based upon his manifestation. So because he has a religious background He's going to see it in terms of a religious figure. It doesn't mean that it's not true But he is picking up out of the field He's been able to get in the field one of the better to be able to bypass the noise in the left brain Get into the field and he has a positive view of it But the people outside him whether it's the government or whether it's mufan or people he knows Everybody's doing their own little thing like the same as the church. They had separation I mean he's dealing with the devil and he got he was a he was a deacon in the pentecostal church And they threw him out because you're dealing with the devil you are on the other side and it's as good versus bad and What about the people he's healing grant? Are they in separation? Well, sure they're in separation everybody's in separation But the people come for how is that even a meaningful term anymore grant when you're you went on one hand You seem to be making a distinction about how these Evil pentecostals threw him out because they thought it was all satanic and there are never narrow definition of the bible But he has other people that he's that he's healing and he's doing good I mean you you do you guys you're kind of saying both all over the Well just because a person gets healed doesn't mean they're a good person or a bad person They're just a person they get healed if you go to the process the healing process Okay, so look at the healing process the Cadillac of all healing processes is the bankston healing method Bankston runs then the academy of scientific Respiration I went to chicago to be trained on this healing thing and what bankston says is they do this rapid image cycling Which ufo experiences reported as well? It was reported in the 1994 school case Where they see these images and what bankston teaches you to do is to flip these ego images in your brain You get 20 of them you flip them and they teach you how to flip these things at a thousand or two thousand a second And they teach it and what it does is it shuts the left brain down because the ego This is how it works. Listen. You're laughing, but this is how it works bankston says nobody is doing the healing Would this process what it is is to get the healer out of the way And once the ego the healer gets out of the way the left brain gets shut down Then the the the the energy flows and the healing takes place But it has nothing to do with people are good people are bad people There are methods of healing and it has to do with some people can do it And it has to do with getting the healer out of the way and allowing the energy to come through I We keep keep going round and round. Yeah, but I don't see what you're I don't see what you're trying to get out I mean, you know like So, you know because he healed somebody then there's a bad guy and there's a good guy and It's just it's like crazy stuff. I mean, it's like we're into this thing We're that's what you keep saying You keep you keep your story Suggest that there there's an element of good to some of these things and your your story also And then and then you have this like think built in where as soon as you say that then when I point out that you're kind of saying Hey, he had he sees it as an angelic experience. He sees it as a positive experience That's his report that there is good and that he should move towards the light and all this then it's like well That's just his interpretation Everything everything is everybody's interpretation Like you were quoting me Ray's Survey, right? And you made a big deal out of only nine percent thought it was evil That doesn't mean anything based on what you're saying if you want to go with stats Then we then let's look at the stats and let's look at Jeff Long's stats and he says it like in the 90 percent that people believe From their experience directly from experience that there is god as we would understand it There's a hierarchy of consciousness. There is a moral imperative. That's a 90 percent or grant So you can say you don't believe in that. That's just separation. You can just Shot me down, but that's the data we have so you can just say well data I don't know by consciousness. There's no separate. There's no nothing separate from consciousness When you get into the data suggests otherwise the data suggests otherwise Another body experience you have moved into a contact modality the same as you do with healing That you've gotten into the field You don't you don't know that we're just looking why were you comfortable? Why were you comfortable reporting Ray's data and you want to shout me down when I report you jeff long's Experience data because the modern view of UFOs is they're evil aliens And when you actually talk to the experiences, which is what I say you have to do you've got to talk to the people Who are interacting with the phenomena and listen to what they're saying and that when you look at the data The idea that there are evil aliens is total nonsense. We're not arguing that We're arguing whether there is anything at all Like evil do you see there's a difference between saying what percentage of the aliens are evil? And saying is there such a thing as evil? And what I'm reporting to you what I'm reporting to you and you haven't really directly responded to Is jeff long data Most recent best-selling new york times best-selling book. He's a guy who's just following the data. He says Hierarchy of consciousness. Yes. God. Yes moral imperative. Yes at a super high percentage like 90 percent So How do you counter that data other than just to say no no I don't say no no no I say that when you go into an out-of-body experience and you have your your your situation or you have the life review when you die in the newton work, which is 35 000 regressions Then it's basically the fact that people judge themselves and they realize I could have done this better I could have done that better and but all still comes down to the belief in separation that you when you believe that you're separate Then you you make these these people say that that's not jeff long's finding jeff long's finding doesn't contradict that directly But that is not his finding his finding is god As we would and that's an uncomfortable word, but it's the best Kind of colloquial phrase we can use they come back and report hierarchy of consciousness beings that they understand at the time to be if you will somewhat further on the path Somewhat higher that's the finding grant so you can sweep that under the rug and say it's your relevant But I don't disagree I don't disagree That's the newton thing the newton thing has you just have the different levels of of beings that Based upon their knowledge of separation and and and and oneness and that it goes by color So it's the white color and it goes up to yellow and then it goes to blue And then it goes to to move the colors of the the higher spiritual beings Yes, that's all true, but it doesn't mean that there are that they same came out of somewhere They all went through the same process that you and I will go through that process And we can elevate ourselves in the spiritual world But it's all done by one thing separation and oneness that if you do separation You're going to move down the scale and if you do oneness you're going to move up the scale And you're going to move towards and the the idea of god is just a noun. It's all consciousness There is only one thing call it whatever you want. It is consciousness I I just disagree with this names and this is good and bad and these and that and it's it's all Manifestations and you see that in in the near death experiences You see that in especially lucid dreaming where you can actually change the scene in the lucid dream And the and I go back to where I started is when you do if you're going to refer to Near death experiences you take the near death experience and you do the oneness You put it in a google search that girls video will come up and she says her impression based upon her experience was There are no victims. There are just volunteers and I have talked to people who have had that and I've questioned them at length Are you sure that's what we were told and that's what happened? You mentioned this girl in in the in the the whole deal with Martini's video when she's in the in the death camp. She says I volunteered for that and and and Martini looks over the camera and he says that is the most inappropriate thing I've ever heard and that's the whole idea Is it random or are is this just a big play where we come in and you kill me this time? And I kill you that really gets into newton stuff Which is really out on the edge that people really can't accept the fact that there are no there are no victims We like to be Jesus. We like to get up on the cross and say oh We're being persecuted and my god everybody's against this and and and basically we got to get off the cross They need the wood. I mean this idea that we are victims once you take responsibility Whatever is happening if you take responsibility for the fact that you may have encountered you may have brought these things into your life You will you will start to advance as long as you think you're a victim And that you're being abducted or the government's after you or whatever you are never going to resolve anything You have to take responsibility for the fact that maybe I Put these things in my way I put these stones in my path and that everything that happens to me Is going to happen for a reason because what we basically is happening is we're playing a game We're we're sitting at the poker table and the deer they're dealing us the cards And we can't take responsibility that we've got to play the cards. We're dealt We just sit there and we wind and complain and we want the dealer to keep changing the deck Don't deal me bad cards. Just deal me good cards We have to play the cards. We're dealt and I say Personal responsibility I whatever happened to me I agree that I put that in my path that I agreed to it and I'm going to play it the best way I can I almost feel like this is a good place to end it. There's so many points to that that I agree with I just can't Get through to you on the points that I guess I I mean we're just slicing the same Stuff a bunch of different ways I don't disagree with personal responsibility, but You know all those colors that you mentioned see I will I can't I can't resist all those colors you mentioned Colors are nouns, right? So it's the white and the blue but it's the description So people will describe what they think they're seeing but it's a great grant. You can't have it It's all screen image. Alex. It's all screen image. Let me give you an example No, no, you can't you can't have it but you can give me all the cases and I get we don't We don't disagree on the cases. It's all screen image. There's no physical. This is not physical It's all screen image when my father give you an example. My father was a very sort of skeptical type guy Two days before he dies his father comes to see him Now was it his father that came to see him because his father would live the thousand different lives And if it was his father, why did he come as his as my grandfather? Because if he'd come as anything else He wouldn't my father wouldn't know who he was. It wouldn't have meant anything He's screen image. He came across and I'll give you another example. Sherry Wilder. I don't know if you've interviewed her She goes on board the ship and she says she says at 15 years old She's on board the ship and they bring out Albert Einstein Albert Schweitzer and they bring out tesla and they bring out a bunch of famous people And of course I said to her I said, okay You saw these people you talked to them and I said, okay, were they physical? Were they physical human and she says I know exactly where you're going with and I'll tell you what It may have been and it may have been a hologram, but they sure look real to me So that's the question did Albert Einstein actually come back into the physical body and come on a ship? Or is this it's all screen imaging. It's all Uli stuff in the you learn that in the The lucid dream stuff when you go in there and you can actually change the characters You can actually move things around and the lucid dream people will say it's more real than the real world Which means this is the dream. I know I've heard all that stuff too But I've also heard of physical manifestations of people that are as real as you and me So there's all sorts of different Are the actual beings or are they just Well screen image is a very kind of touchy kind of phrase Especially when we get into this idea that it's all consciousness that in somehow we're co-creators of a reality That there's an you know, we started this. We never even got into it. You know, I interviewed. Do you know riz verk? He has a book called the simulation hypothesis Brilliant guy mit Compute computer game lab. So he's like a super duper Gaming guy and right them. You know him Yeah, I know the It's an important idea the idea of the of the and that's where we're going So when I started 2012 this was this was not really talked about but now we're talking simulation hypotheses We talk about the experiments that was done with the kids that played the gaming thing Where they're in the dream and suddenly they're being chased by an evil whatever and they go Oh fantastic and they turn around and they they shoot them. They think this is great And it's all it's it all goes to the thing that we're now starting to learn It may all be just a giant hologram a giant simulation. It's all just a game simulation of what? How do you deal with the infinite regress the infinite regress is when people say it's a simulation It's a simulation of what what is it simulating? Is there some other reality that it's simulating and is that reality? I'm not backing the simulation. I'm just saying that we're moving more to the idea You said it's a simulation. No, I'm saying is that's the term that's being used now And we're getting closer to the idea that it's all just really stuff. It's all just an illusion It's just it's like the the Maya stuff. It's it's not really physical I get that it is Maya and we've been talking about that forever, but then why do you tell these stories? Why do I tell these stories because they're meaningful to us in some way in terms of navigating our experience Exactly. You can't just trounce all over everybody, but you have to realize it's a story, Alex You can't make it a physical game No, you don't know if your stories and your interpretation of it are more valid than somebody else's interpretation of it And and to reduce to keep insisting that you will Arbitrarily at your given moment reduce flatten everything down to it's all consciousness And therefore it's all separation that loses its meaning It takes meaning out of out of a lot of these stories. So I just put it out there as a theory which is now starting to be validated You can even go back to the quantum physics Nothing gets behind consciousness all these quantum physics guys seem to realize that back in the day that consciousness Or john wheeler. It's a participatory universe. We're starting to realize this is going to be the case It may not be right, but more and more as I go along and there's more and more evidence that validates that theory That it's just all a big illusion is all just a big thing. There is no physical. There are no nouns It's just us manifesting from the one. We are all the one final question. You just use the word us One of the problems I have with a lot of people who spin this stuff out there is invariably Our human consciousness works its way into the center of the story We kind of have this tendency to be kind of egocentric about things and it's about our consciousness and how we manifest And we bring these things into existence Doesn't that seem a little bit misplaced in terms of that? We have some special role to play in this and that our consciousness is somehow Special in some way. What do you think? Let me go back to joe bolte taylor She said that when she had the left brain hemorrhage and when her left brain went Offline she realized I am not an individual. That is an illusion I am one with the universe. There is just one Yeah Okay, keep going. Will you keep using the term us? Do you believe? Oh, I'll make it a real specific question Do you believe that our manifestation of consciousness Is somehow special unique different than let's say let's hypothesize about two other beings let's hypothesize about an et A visitor of a physical biological visitor from another planet one of the questions I always pose to people is What do you think et sees in its life review? So my question is The consciousness experience that et is manifesting How is that Different similar better worse than ours and then the other example I'd say is a spirit entity We have after death communication. People are connecting with spirits same question for that. What is their experience in terms of manifesting conscious and you can't just say it's all one. It's all the same There's no separation. It's all just one because there's three different things there. There's me There's et and there's a spirit There's no nouns. There's just one thing So you have et's that are masquerading as et's you have spirit guides that are masquerading is they're they're in they they have They're one with us. There's no separation. They're one with us. They're higher. They're higher Beings that have separated. We've all separated. We come across the river of forgetfulness and when you talk about the The beings I believe they're higher Understanding they understand oneness. That's the number one message that's given to Experiencers you cannot get off the planet unless you understand it's oneness That was the question that was asked by jan hartson to ben rich from lockheed scunk works He said how do they get here? How does it work and ben rich said? What do you know about esp and he said means everything in time and space is connected He said that's how it works. There is no time. There is no space. There is no physical universe It's all one thing and when you realize you're gonna get off the planet as long as you believe there's separation And there's them and us We aren't going anywhere. So it's all the same thing It's just a different a different element. It's just a different Spirits and that's why I'm writing the book et or maybe not and I look at why are you why are you writing the book if it's all the Same it's all because I used to believe that there was actual et's that were coming from other planets And and the more you look at it you might go no this looks like spirits This looks like uh, not to me. No, it looks like et's from other planets and spirits And shamanic journey and all that other stuff and they all came out of the one They all came out of the one they decided But why are you writing the book? Why are you writing the book because it's because I'm just gonna say I'm gonna say it's all it's all one Grant grant has all the contact modalities, but it's all one. It's all about consciousness All these all those reports are a waste of time all the stories are a waste of time They're not a waste. It's all one. It's all one. It's all consciousness All the material leads us back to the fact that it's all one thing that they that you already got that I got that at the beginning. It's all one. Why talk about it? Why talk about it? It's all one It's all one if you look at the free survey. There's so many people say I was an alien last time There's a bunch of people. John Denver believed he was an alien Why look at that? Why look at any of that? It's all one. It doesn't matter. John. John Denver's So you're gonna come back to you come back to an alien next time you come back to the matter Doesn't matter. It's all one. It's all one. It's all consciousness. It doesn't matter everything you say It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I don't say it doesn't matter. I don't say it doesn't matter I just say it's all one You're the one that's putting the nouns and saying this matters. This is important It's not how does it matter then Grant? How does it matter? How does it matter? Because I have a path that I have to take and I'm trying to figure out what's the path I'm supposed to take and what I'm supposed to do and it comes down to there is no time There is no space live in the moment live live. How could what you do possibly matter? It's all okay It's all one. Yeah, but you you could what you do possibly matter How can doing anything make a difference? Because it will influence other people other people will say oh, I understand that so other people do something difference How does that make a difference? It's it's a learning the whole whole life is learning. There's no learning. You just you come in you're the You come in your body this time. You're the evil alien next Make any difference. Well, what do you mean learn? What do you mean learn? Understanding and empathy you're oh, oh, so our understanding and empathy good Absolutely Because you think you're saying okay Understanding and empathy are good. Something is good. We want to move towards something that's good, right? Exactly Exactly, I agree. So you it's a process of learning of me understanding How does this work and what's my role and then when I saw michael newton and I saw that he influenced me I realized like oh this makes sense that there is this this this path And that you take responsibility for your stuff You live in the present moment and you live you live for others rather than for self And that's basically what what I come down to and I take personal responsibility I don't try to blame the russians or the jews or the anybody All that because you realize this kind of goes against what you're saying earlier But that's okay. I get it because I think that's where your heart really is at And that's where my heart is at is we have to try and do we have to try and do the right thing There is a moral imperative. There is a reality to to goodness Righteousness and there's the opposite of that too. So we should resist With our choice with our consciousness. We should resist doing things that move us away from that So that's what I was trying to say from the beginning. Okay. I agree with you But when it comes to other people you have to have empathy that was the lesson that was turned to me about the homeless I was a 500 per person only shelter and the first lesson they teach you is take a look around Nobody planned to be here But we say, oh, they're bad guys Why don't they just go and stop drinking and get a job and we don't have the empathy We don't have the understanding that they're but for the grace of god go I and that if I was in their shoes and walked around then maybe I'd understand Maybe why they're doing what they're doing. That's all I'm saying I totally get that on one level on another level, you know political Debates, I think I think in a lot of ways and this is part of the problem with this ongoing dialogue that we're having political debates Divide us in a way that really does create the separation to use your words Because to suggest that You know one political point of view or one economic point of view is inherently better than another I think we have just too many examples where it's really I'll just go back to what you said. It's in our heart Already to know What is right? It's not that complicated and we should try and do What's right and it probably will wind up being a pretty good decision to make in the grand scheme of things That's do what thou wilt Not a very good strategy Not a very good strategy. Let me make one final point on oneness You are the united states of america the most powerful country in the world because it's the united states of america And you now have separation you have half the people believe one thing Half the people believe the other thing and there's actually people posting friends of mine went and posted and said We should actually take these people up and line them up and shoot them. So now you have a separation Understanding where it's one american versus another american and when you get separation you're going to get division You're going to get killing and it's going to go downhill The united states of america was the most powerful country and they liked to the world because they believed they were one They were all the same all created under god What point in history are you pointing to because the more I read about and study my american history The more I I don't see this golden era that you're talking about Well, the the fact that you had a situation where in congress you could actually pass a bill That in the house you've got 250 bills that don't even pass that you have this total division. What period what period are you talking about? Isn't the last year where you can put whatever you want. What period in the past are you talking about where there was this Golden age where democracy and freedom reigned and there wasn't corruption and Well, there's always going to be corruption, but 20 years ago. You could actually pass a bill now. You can't even pass a bill It's totally divided so 20 years ago It was 20 years ago where people were saying there's 50 percent. We're saying we should kill the other 50 percent We should get you know this kind of stuff This is new once you get separated 9 11 9 11 was an orchestrated event that was designed to destroy The fourth amendment which it did it's never been restored A lot of people think it was also designed to kind of cramp down on the first amendment and the second amendment Which it seems to be heading in that direction. That's what happened 20 years ago. So 20 years ago is a is a glory day That is separation again. That is a bunch of people No, you said 20 years ago, so pick a but i'm not saying it was At no time At no time am I saying it's perfect. I'm saying it is better Before than it is now because at no point did you have a situation where somebody can stand up and make a speech And every and 50 percent of people will see one speech and the other 50 percent of people will see Completely different viewpoint is completely divided and the more it divides the more you're going to get into a situation Where you're going to have civil war and you're going to have americans fighting americans if you were playing the chess board And don't you dare use separation in your answer to this If you were you if you were playing the chess board and you were to win trying to win Right because you thought winning and you thought winning meant controlling the herd then might you not see an advantage in divisiveness Might you see an advantage in fear cells like this lecture is not going to sell Fear cells it makes money. We clean the stock market every 12 years The the big guys go take the money off the board and then buy stuff back at 30 on the dollar Yeah separation and and division sell it makes lots of money. I will agree with that And I would say that it's not really about the I mean ultimately it can be about the money But it's also about The the herd it's about the control And it when people are afraid When people feel isolated when people feel I'll use the word separation They are much easier to control. I mean yeah, and the people that are doing the controlling Believe in separation. They believe that I am here and you are just an object that I am going to use Whether you're a child, whether you're a person's money, whatever I am the guy you are just an object when you suddenly realize that the people that you are taking their money You're doing whatever you're doing to them when you realize that is me That's when you suddenly realize that you've got to stop doing it because we are all the same person As long as we believe I agree with you. I just don't think that That maps quite as directly onto the political process as you do the notion that there is a political Solution to this or that there's a group That's a party that's somehow separate from that No, there is it because they're all doing the ego thing They're saying I there's a problem and I'm the good messiah who's going to save the thing That's not how it works. It's good. Nothing to do with politics. It's just another division game Well, I think the Jeffrey Epstein case has so much more to say to this And if you really look at brown stoning and sexual black male and you know, you really start tracing it back and you go Oh, wow, Roy Cohen. Oh, wow back in the 80s. Oh, wow, there it pops up back in the 60s Oh, I just listened to a guy who wrote an excellent book about watergate That's ultimately what watergate was about a madame another dc madame who had a little black book and was Sexually black man. This is an ongoing game. I just interviewed John brissen about the finders cult if no one's ever heard about that again If you're in if you're an intelligence if you're And then one of the alphabet letter intelligence organizations and you have are tasked with Kind of infiltrating and winning against some foreign government. Well, you can do a bunch of other stuff But when somebody goes, you know that guy's into eight-year-old boys and I can procure for you Eight-year-old boy and get him in this hotel room. We can videotape the whole thing and we got that motherfucker We got him for life Now even if you're a stand-up guy in the cia That is super duper tempting because you're like, you know, we've been trying to crack the code with Egypt for 20 years and we can't do it But if I just do this one evil deed and if I just further destroy the life of this eight-year-old boy I can in this, you know balancing act I can accomplish all these good things against these people kind of thing So I just I don't have the same lens that you do on politics I think politics is always a dirty win at all cost game And I think the only way out is to be completely out of it and to be completely A political and I think it comes down to compassion All the things that you care about I care about we both resonated with the Dalai Lama Story of the monk who comes back and says I almost lost it all I almost lost the ability to see my worst enemy As just another part of me, which is what you've been saying all along Yeah, and and so when it gets to political or sexual thing It's it always comes down to this person is separate from me. They are an object I need to use this object in order to benefit me Or I think I'm going to do something good by doing this Once you see a person or a thing as an object It is there to be used and to be benefited by and you really lose the idea that everything is conscious Everything is sentient. Everything is God and once once you realize that you stop doing all this crazy stuff to Things that we believe are just objects. It's just an object. It's just a person It's just a a bad guy from another country It's just an oppressor or whatever once you can make that separation then you can do all manner of evil Our guest again has been the ever so magnificent grant camera and I hope you've enjoyed this conversation the give and take Uh, which you can only get into with people that you really respect at this level and you admire this level Grant in the time that we have left, please tell people How to stay in touch with your work and what's coming up one of these books coming out apparently you said the contact modality book Is coming out right now. What about the aport book? We didn't talk about any of that I've got about maybe six books that are sort of in editing I'm not really into that part of the thing. I'm more into the discovery. So I'm now into physical mediums people who are able to bring uh, Louis Armstrong into a room and uh, play and Produce supports and stuff like that So I'm I'm still the research guy most of my stuff will be on my white house UFO youtube channel Where I put a lot of interviews that I do with people who I think have an interesting story to tell that sort of That goes into this kind of stuff I'm doing a book on Mount Shasta, which is an experience when I was at Mount Shasta Where they had this being appear there the mission Rama people if you know that whole story I was there when this happened. I documented the whole weekend in a book And the aport book is is extremely important the manifestation in a port But again, they're all lined up and if they get published to get published if they don't they don't I'm really not that concerned. I'm more interested in Chasing down what I think are very interesting people who have stories and my main thing now is the link between the spiritual world and the UFO world which is going to be Detailed in this book extraterrestrial or maybe not. I look at the all the problems with the extraterrestrial theory You know when I hear you talk like this, I wonder how we even managed to disagree on everything I'm so in line with all your family. Let's work at everything that you're doing and ultimately we are of the same heart Oh, yeah We've had some good discussions and I think this discussion will help I think this is what people need to hear even though it may sound a little controversial 10 years from now I don't think it'll be as controversial as it is now Because because people are just starting to get into this and you and I and I say this to the people in the UFO community I have a a new assistant Shanaid Wellahan who's joined me and she just had her awakening about six eight months ago and I keep telling her shanaid You gotta realize there are only a couple of people who know what when you talk about consciousness You may have people in the UFO community who use the word. They have no idea It's only at your level and my level that people actually understand the connection to the near-death experience to the spirit world to all this kind of stuff Very few people understand the consciousness angle and I keep warning her. I say you gotta realize there's not that many people And we are the first people were on the the front line of this thing So 10 years from now, I think you and I the conversations we've had Will mean a lot more to people they will suddenly catch on that this is an important aspect right now Everybody's still into you know, where are the aliens from? What's the technology? You know, we're gonna get the free energy and they're into that whole nuts and bolts thing You and I are one of the few people I think they're on the leading edge of this consciousness Thing which I believe is going to answer all the questions Grant awesome having you on thanks again. Beautiful. Thank you Alex Thanks so much a great camera for joining me today and skeptico as I said during the interview You know, there's a lot of heated exchanges between Grant and I But that's mainly because he's a guy I can get to level three with On this discussion and I want to get to level three with you. So let me throw out a question it's the the question I always tease with and that's What is ETC in its life review? And the reason I like that question is it kind of immediately catapults us into all these important questions about The moral imperative is they're good is they're bad. Are we obligated to try and do something for some reason and it also Obviously brings into focus these extended consciousness realms and these beings Whether they be spirit beings et beings or no beings at all if you're a completely materialist atheist That might exist in these extended consciousness realms So let me know your thoughts to that kind of question that I kind of dragged down there and the place to do it Of course is the skeptical form. Please join me over there. You know, I've said this before but I'll repeat it One of the real pleasures I get out of this show Is interacting with You you folks who listen to it and have so many fantastic ideas. I've gained so much from People who share with me New information things that they're learning things that they're experiencing That's so so much a part of this whole experience for me And I've just found that the skeptical form is kind of a good place to do that So if you haven't been over there in a while Come back see what's going on be part of that community join us talk to us And uh, let's get that dialogue going And of course while your fingers are typing be sure to check out skeptico.com Or you can download all these shows for free or just grab the link and share it with Share it with someone who you think Needs to hear this information. I kind of have this idea that the right person Finds a way to share this show With the right person Who needs it at the time that they need it? That's That's my fantasy that that I play in my head. So see if that works for you I do have a number of great shows. I think coming up Please stay with me for all of that Until next time take care And bye for now