 Gary Snyder, you and I are friends on Facebook and periodically there is some kind of a cultural reference or a film reference. And I remember that you are a film reviewer and actually a professor of media studies. You can correct me of the proper title, but you love movies. And I thought we could talk a little bit about the recent Werner Herzog film, Fireball and just maybe about Herzog in general. But first, just remind us of your CV, your teaching credentials. Yeah. So my background, I studied film at college. So my background is in film studies. And yes, I reviewed films for the Vanguard press back in the day, some other publications. I was involved with various film efforts in town. Help start the along with Eric Ford, the Burlington Film Society, which was later incorporated into the Vermont International Film Festival Foundation. I also was a board member, president of the board of the Film Foundation for a number of years. And then I was head of the film program at Burlington College for 10 years as well. So I've had a life involved in film among other vocations. And let me just ask you kind of a big question, which is in this time of short media assets or production and shorter attention spans, what place do you think film has and should continue to have in our media landscape and our cultural landscape? Well, it's very, very important. It's a big topic too, seeing the strain that theaters are under right now. So that theatrical experience is I think the thing that we're going to, if it disappears, I don't think it will disappear completely, but increasingly we're viewing films on devices, funny that we still call them films. And that theatrical experience is so important, I think as a larger than life experience as something that you do in a collective setting, it's really essential. And also that it's a large question, what's happened to our attention spans and what that means, I think people don't have patience for films that are slower, the art cinema kind of films that you don't simply fall into that require that you bring something to it and have to pay attention. And I'm a great advocate for cinema in all its dimensions, but particularly that's at risk of being lost. Ironically, talking about Herzog, it's one of Herzog's, you know, pigs. He has a lot of, a lot of peves and a lot of problems with aspects of contemporary society that he goes off on in his interviews, but that is certainly one of them. He thinks we live in a time when images have been abused and have become useless and he blames commercial TV for a lot of it. And he sees cinema or at least what he would define as cinema as having that capacity that cinema has to inspire awe once again. So, you know, all those things I think we're at risk of losing as we move into the virtual world and live inside of the virtual world. You know, there's another side to it in terms of what now, the series, the kind of streaming series and these various platforms that are now underwriting the production of films of the sort that could not be made in terms of mainstream cinema. So there's all these directors now, including Herzog who are finding a means to still make films and have them seen even if they're not. But it's going to be interesting when we finally get out of this lockdown to see what happens with theaters. They've been under stress for some time now and this, you know, this could be pretty much the death now. Yeah, the collective experience is so vital. And you know, while you're talking, what I think about for me, what film really is, I think about for me, what film really does that television doesn't is not only, you know, watching it in a big space with lots of other people, but you can't really experience humanity in a quick way. Like what film allows you to do is unfurl the human experience so you can actually look at it and examine it and that takes time. And I think that's one of the real virtues. And I think it's also one of the strengths of Herzog. So why don't we, you know, talk about him? He's got a new film called Fireball. I think that's the name of it. Yes. About meteors. And just before we talk about that film, let's just look at his career briefly. I mean, for people who are my age, you know, one of the pieces that really stands out was the burden of dreams, you know, the film that he made, well, Fitzcarraldo and then, which is about this man who wanted to build an opera house in the middle of the Amazon and actually, you know, takes the organ over these mountains. And Herzog was so committed to various similitude that he actually had the actors carry this over the mountain. And there's a film made out of it called Burden of Dreams by, I think, less. Blank. Blank, right, which tells the story. But, you know, why would a director go to that length to recreate reality when they could just create the fiction in the film? Yes. He has this thing about truth in cinema. He famously derides cinema verite, which he says is a cinema without, with only superficial truth. So, in his films, he's often gone to extraordinary lengths, including fictionalizing his documentaries, crossing those borders constantly. But in regard to Fitzcarraldo, he has this idea that by actually moving that ship. And, you know, the actual story that is based on, it was a 30-ton ship. Oh, it was a ship, not an organ, a ship. Yes. The story is about someone who is obsessed with bringing opera to the Amazon, deep inside the Amazon. And the actual story involved a 30-ton ship that they dissembled to take over the mountain at a portion of the river that they couldn't navigate. But Herzog had a 300-ton ship. And decided to haul it over the mountain at, you know, and putting people's life, the less blank film goes into this. Nobody was actually killed. That was part of the rumors. And there's always rumors and misinformation and mythology that swirls around Herzog. But he definitely, people's lives were at risk. I mean, it was an extraordinary, arduous task to pull this over this mountain, pull this ship over the mountain. He belatedly rationalized it as, that you can, especially, and this comes to the fore in the era of special effects, but that it imbues the film with something that you can't get by virtuous special effects. And he's always after this quality of awe, he sees it as an essential quality of cinema, this sense of awe. And that was one of the ways that he went about it. He does this commonly in his films. And you think before this, the film that brought him to the attention of an international audience was a Gary Wrath of God, which was shot in Peru. And also, you know, I rewatched that not too long ago. And he has his cast on Wraths going down these rapids. And he does these things. And, you know, he's broke, you know, he's filmed places where he shouldn't film and he does all these sort of things. But that's Fitzcarral, though. And yes, he came of age. He comes out of what was referred to as the new German cinema. And this period of turmoil in Germany, where the industry, you know, Germany was of course occupied by the Allied forces and the industry over the intervening years had, for various complicated reasons, ended up being, didn't become vital anymore. It was underfunded after a while. It was in competition with the Americans. Hollywood films that filled the screens, this and that and the other thing. And in the 60s, in that period of agitation, young filmmakers issued this manifesto demanding funding for cinema. And it resulted in the national cinema being subsidized by the state and gave the opportunity for all these young filmmakers to enter the scene and make movies. And was even though there was strong political content in the films of these filmmakers, Rainer, Werner, Fassbender, and Wim Wenders, and Margaret von Traut, and Volker Schwunder, all these people along with Herzog, even though it had strong political content, it was embraced by the state because it projected internationally this image of their, of liberalism, which did the Willy Brandt government well. So there were a lot of young filmmakers who benefited from this. The cinema in Germany had been basically destroyed because of the rise of Hitler and the aftermath. So Herzog refers to these new German cinema filmmakers as orphans. They were orphans, you know, cinematically, they didn't have the masters. They had to go back to the great silent period for masters of films. They didn't have mentors. They didn't have fathers. So they brought something very new to films and lo and behold, and because underwritten by the state and promoting the interests of the state culturally in an indirect way, they were promoted by the Goethe Institute and things like that. These filmmakers became front and center on the international stage. So that's where Herzog enters. He made his first films when he was in his 20s. Famously again, one of his pet peeves is film schools. He was self-trained. He never made it through. He went to the University of Munich and made it through. He stole a film camera, a 35 millimeter film camera from the Munich film school to make his first film. He said he had a natural right to it as a tool. And there's always been this sort of gorilla element to his filmmaking. He's filmed where he shouldn't film and thrown in jail and done things that are, you know, from one point of view might be considered unethical. The last blank bird in the dreams gets into that question of his exploitation of the natives and hauling the ship over the mountain. But that's where he comes onto the scene and he makes Gary is the breakthrough film and then Fitzcarralzo and a number of other films. But he's been at it for now, he's 78 and he's been at his over 60 films to his credit. He's found a way early on and he claims he's never made it, he's never gone over budget. So he's found a way to make films and to continue to make films, he's a extraordinary feat and make films that are so distinctive in terms of their personalities, the films that he wants to make. So he's very singular in that way and in other ways in terms of his personality. Two thirds of those films are documentaries. So right from the start he was making documentaries and like I said before he was also crossing that line between fact and fiction. He'd often have non-actors play parts and he's become, I don't know of any other filmmaker who has as large a public presence and a public persona as Herzog, even surpassing Hitchcock. He's well known for him as himself and he's a voice actor but he also performs as himself in movies and has played character as he's in the Jack Reacher film with Tom Cruise, he plays a villain in that. And that sense of awe, I'm glad you mentioned that because Fireball, which I wanted to hear your assessment of is really about awe and cultural response to that. So why don't you just start actually by telling the story that you related in Facebook, if you don't mind about your family witnessing the meteors? Yes. When I saw Fireball, visitors from darker worlds, that's the full title. It brought to mind something that I hadn't recalled in years, which was an incident, I must have been 10 or 12. In Eastern rural Pennsylvania, grew up outside of a small town in Eastern Pennsylvania. And we were in our backyard, having an over the fence chat with our neighbors and something caught our eye and we all looked up. And it was a boulder that filled our field of view, moving across the sky at a seemingly slow pace. And we were just in total astonishment and a little scared. It was like so unusual. We were just breathless at this site. And it crossed our field of vision. The kids who were present, I and some others ran up the hill because we were sure it was going to crash the next field over. And it went out of sight. We didn't know what to make of it. I think we must have heard of meteors. And so we assumed it was that. We didn't know who to turn to. I think there was some suggestions that maybe we should call the police. Let them know. But that's where it stood. I think someone had. Later looked in a found in a newspaper. Word of a meteorite hitting an upstate New York or something like that. So it might have been the same one. But obviously what we saw was a was a meteorite. I remember it had a little bit of a tray. It wasn't a fireball. Because it was in the atmosphere. I think our sense of the size of it. And my recollection was that it was this, this bolder size. This huge thing going across the sky. That probably has to do with the same optical illusion by which we. When we see the moon rise above the Earth. When we see the moon rise above the horizon, it looks so huge. But in any case, it was awesome. It was an awesome site and an awesome experience. And watching. Watching fireball. Brought brought brought it all back to me. And fireball. Visitors from darker worlds. Is is awesome. You know, Herzog. Has expressed his. His desire to. Cinema that doesn't. Evoke all. You know, like cinema, in his view. Is not worth that. Worthy of the title of cinema. So it's something that he consciously goes after. And this is his. The second collaboration with Glock, Clive Oppenheimer, who is a volcanologist. In 2016, the two of them. He first met him in, in his documentary encounters. In. Encounters in. At the end of the world. Which is about Antarctica. So he encountered Clive Oppenheimer, who is a volcanologist. And then in 2016, they made another film. That's really worth watching called into the inferno, which is about volcanoes. So they've been on this. Well, not only in these films, but in Herzog's other documentaries, like a cave of forgotten dreams. He's a real. He has a deep interest in science. And I heard him talk about fireball. On the. Bill Nye, the science guy, his podcast. And he talked about. What science and movies have been common. Is this. Sense of all. You know, the awesomeness of the things that science uncovers. So he tries to, that that's his goal in making these films. And. And I would say they're very successful in that regard. In terms of that combination. The other thing that he, he does. He, he is. You know, he's such a. A contrarian. And, you know, he, he. He doesn't like the national geographic. And he's a model. For making films about. Exotic places or. Are science. Science subjects. So. He's in quest of a new model. He, he intends to be making these films are. He views them as, as a new model for this kind of science film or film about a, a subject of interest to science. And always incorporated into him is a cultural element. From, from the start, he's been interested in other cultures. You can see that in the Gary and Fitzcarral though. In his fiction films and his documentaries. In some ways that there is a. There's a strong ethnographic. Element in his films. So fireball. Besides going to all these places where. Meteors have hit the earth. He's an amazing basins like. On the. North of the Yucatan coast. Is one of the most famous ones that. White. The dimensions of it is just. Unimaginable. And that was the one that wiped out the dinosaurs. So when he goes to. Besides that dealing with those things or wherever he goes, he encounters. People's, for example. And their religious rituals that seem to. Be the thing that he's talking about. He does this and into the inferno as well. And so there are these cultural elements. And then they're the scientists themselves. And rather than having, you know, he's. Academia is one of Herzog's pet peeves. So his, his films do not have these. Talking heads in front of charts and things like that. But he has a very keen sensibility. He really likes people and he picks up on people. So the scientists that, that he interviews. These various places. Are, are such interesting characters. And their enthusiasm. Carries that sense of all as well. So it's a combination of those, those elements. And it's, it's just the, just terrific. And is he collaborate with. The volcanologist. Yes. In the research or. Do they script it together or how does he. Put this together with others. It's, it's a good match. They make a good match. The volcanologist, you know, he's. A true scientist. But in terms of discovering these subjects. They discover them together. I think it was Clive Oppenheimer. After into, into the furnace who called. Herzog's attention to meteorites. And so they collaborate in terms of where they might shoot. Where they might go and who they might. Who they might interview and all those sort of things. That's a matter of collaboration. The way Herzog is now working at, he's behind the camera. And, and Clive Oppenheimer is a presence on camera. And doing these interviews and, and he has a wonderful personality. He's really has a great presence on screen. So it's a. It's a nice combination that they bring and, and you know. Herzog. They both have this. This sense of all in wonder and totally into. The subject that they're talking about. Herzog. Tends to. Want to go into the kind of the metaphysical dimensions. And that can. You know, there are times when he's. More clear about what he's talking about. There's times when, when it can come off as it can come off as kind of a. A mysticism or, you know, this, this dark promoting. You know, the sort of thing that he's famous for. In fact, it's. It becomes kind of self parity after a while. And it's a little bit of a, a little bit of a. A little bit of a, a little bit of a. At, at its worst. So having. Oh, oh, and. Or Clive Oppenheimer as a mouthpiece is. Is good. Yeah. So you enjoyed the film. It's. Overall, it was, you liked it thumbs up. Like. It's terrific. It just. It's, it's very good. And it has that sense of all, you just can't. Help. But the things that come into view and the things that are discussed. Like the momentousness of what has happened when meteors have struck the earth and. People going around finding dust. Or these tiny bits of, of meteors. There's one, there's an interview with a jazz musician who. Has taken this up as his. Avocation and. And. I Googled. Used Google Earth to, to find the flat. Roof. And found one in, in, I think. Is it. In Australia somewhere and goes up on this roof, and he's found a way for picking up. Particles that are. From. From space. Particles of space dust. And he has another person that he's got to photograph these at 3,000 times. And there are these incredible landscapes. Some of the forms of these things are. In our. In our world. These forms that these, these small particles from space take. Because of their. Because they're subject to these forces. In space. The forms that they take under magnification are just absolutely different. You know, they get into this idea of. Where humans have this in common with these rocks. We're all made of the. We're made of stardust. Funny thing I wanted to mention about. You know, Harry. Sometimes he can come off as, as, as a mystic. But he's not, he's really. A hard science guy in this interview with Bill Nye about, about fireball. About the film. Bill Nye brought up the thing that Carl Sagan says that. That we're made of stardust and, and humans are. Something like humans are a way of the cosmos looking back at itself. So Bill, in this conversation with Herzog and Oppenheimer about the film. Bill Nye brings up this idea. He's really enthusiastic about this idea of humans as a way for the. Cosmos to look back at himself and her some. Herzog brings him up short. And. Ask him what he's trying to sell them about the consciousness of the cosmos. And accuses Bill Nye, the science guy of. Of a new age. Psyc. Pseudo science babble. Though he's really hardcore in terms of. Being an atheist and, and having a. Kind of a scientific view. And. There's, you know, that, that subtitle visitors from darker worlds. There's, there's a darkness to, to Herzog. And, you know, this, this. Apocalyptic element. That meteorites that you. Have to encounter. You encounter in the idea. Exploring the subject of meteors. And this is a part of the film as well. The fact that. You know, I don't remember the name of it, but there's actually a. An institution. In, in, in the government that is constantly. Keeping an eye and has a plan for if they encounter. If they view. A meteor that's going to strike the earth. So there's, there. That prospect that it, that it's going to happen. It could happen. It has happened in the past with absolutely. You know, overwhelming catastrophic effects on the planet and life on the planet is a part of the. Of the subject. Well, I really appreciate that. I can't wait to see it. It's on Apple TV. So it is. I can get, I can do my subscription. And into the inferno is on Netflix. Oh, is it? Okay. Good. Well, that's, that's excellent to know. So let me just ask you before we wrap up. I really appreciate this conversation. What's in your queue? What films are you. Looking forward to watch. Over the next few weeks that. You haven't seen yet. Or maybe you've seen and want to watch again. Having seen this and talking about her talk, I wanted to revisit. A bunch of his films. Heart of glass. Some others. I don't have a whole lot in the, in the queue right now. I saw. I read something online about. European. A section of European films on Netflix. And included Fajardi, the Iranian filmmaker has a new film out there. That I hadn't heard of before. I really, I really like him a lot. So that's on the queue. I, I watch. Turn your classic movies a lot. So I rewatch things and occasionally we'll discover something that I haven't seen before. Those are the things that come to mind. Well, that'll be interesting. Maybe when you watch the Iranian film, we can talk about that because. He's a great filmmaker and really interesting stories about. The life, his life and. In the politics and, but in the regular people and it's just. Quite rich. Rich film. Very much. Yeah. So maybe we can talk about that would be good Iranian film. Talk to you about that. Awesome. Well, Barry Snyder. Thank you, Professor Snyder for talking with us. About, um, Werner Herzog's most recent films and some of your, and also that was really interesting about German cinema history. I'm really. I'm, I'm glad to hear that. And I see there's a little Fritz Lang book behind you, which of course is part of that tradition, you know, the. Even going back to your, what a great filmmaker he was. And you've got David Lynch. So you've got all the sort of. Unusual filmmakers on your bookshelf back there. Nice to see. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I might mention, um, FW, Murnau, uh, because Herzog made a remade, um, not for our two. Um, And he said that would be good to the watch. Yes. Yes. Oh, my. With what? With Klaus Kinski. Oh, and it, yeah. Other side of the whole Herzog story. I, yes. And we'll talk again. Okay. That would be great. Thanks so nice to see you. Thanks for joining. See you.