 Basically human bit with different DNA is okay to take their rights away and turn them into burgers Why aren't you vegan because I enjoy me do you think um because we derive Century pleasure from an action it morally justifies the action if a product has been ethically farmed there is nothing wrong with eating that meat Okay, well, I guess that's where we We part ways if it was you right now about to get shredded by a lion. I wouldn't go lions though, bro Do you change your position now you're off the reductio safe Okay, so the science is why aren't you vegan I'm interested in debating the ethical Principles of veganism with you. Are you a vegan? No, and do you have an opposition to the ethical principles of veganism we can debate I'm curious to see what your the basis of your ethical principles are. Okay, my position is something like with a few caveats it's something like Human beings should live without violating the negative rights of sentient animals or sentient beings really because animal or not You know, I'm not necessarily concerned with animals if they're not sentient That is my metric for moral value We share that in common with animals and I believe because we share that property of sentience with animals We should respect them enough not to enslave them kill them interfere with them frustrate them, you know and use them for our own Benefit provided it violates the negative rights. Hey, so I'm what sort of animals do you think have sentience? What do you think I mean by sentience? self-aware No sentience is able to have a subjective experience. Okay Consciousness under the banner. I if I say conscious and sentient I'm sort of have these under the same banner So it can be able to feel or perceive things But you need to be a subject as well like a having a subjective experience in order to have your rights violated You need to be an individual subject of this experience as well. So you see you believe that cows for example can Understand what they perceive rather than just experience them or also have an interpretation of what their experiences are beyond just the sensation Is that what you'd say? Oh, well, I don't think they're just machines that don't react or not react because plants react but respond to external Pain fear suffering well-being of course cows can have all these experiences Emotional complexity and yeah, they definitely what happens to cows matters to the cows for sure. No, yeah, I think I'd agree So on that basis then you are vegan for we'll stick with the cows tonight. I think because that's quite a good basis Do you think that? cows shouldn't be kept in captivity on farms and then killed at the end of that Well when they're ready to be sorted then on the basis that they are sentience Yeah, that's an aspect of what I'm concerned with But I think animals can have their rights violated in other ways not just in farms and not necessarily in captivity like I don't support hunting animals and using animals in entertainment Like, you know, SeaWorld for example So yeah, so there are forms of animal exploitation I would be opposed to other than This but yeah, but basically the principle would be the same it would be they they have an inherent value based on their sentence We shouldn't violate their their rights. Okay, I see so When we or propose we get rid of farms because we are vegan What do you propose happens to the animals that once were farmed? I'm hearing a practical argument more of a pragmatic sort of Argument here. What would we do if animals had rights? Yes Is that a justification that for animals not to have rights? Is that I'm just trying to get I'm curious to see What would happen to the animals once they're not being farmed whether that would lead to an improvement in their quality of life? Of course, I want to talk about that. But first do we agree cows should have rights? Because I want to talk so the reason I'm saying is because I wanted to make the principle before we go off when is it Achievable and what would happen if they did have rights? Would there be some issue with it? You know what I mean? So if we if you otherwise we won't move off the principle point until We've come to a you're still opposed to her and then we can debate it And then we could talk about what would happen to all the animals fun because I do have a good answer for this and we can talk About that. Yeah, so yeah, so in principle should cows have these rights. I'm talking about I think they should have rights I don't think they should be the same as human rights because I think humans and animals are different. They're separated That's a good place for us to hit to so when I talk about rights, I'm talking about negative rights So the right not to be enslaved and treated as property and murder and not to have something done to them You know, so when I'm talking and when humans have like all these positive rights and like the right to vote and all these things But I'm talking about these rights not to be into. Yeah, you know, yeah Yeah, because I need just learn these concepts myself because I know what they mean. I just call them fundamental rights Yeah, so basically not to be interfered with and things like this So you're saying we don't think animals should have those because like cows We can stick with cows because that's simple because it's different kinds of sea sponges, of course, which answer to you So you don't think cows should have a right to be protected from being interfered with but humans should because we're different Yes, I think so. So what is the morally relevant difference that justifies? Robbing animals of their rights for a burger. So let's say like cows for their their their moral right to exist for a burger And what's the difference between humans and animals that justifies in that context and not in the human context? It's very interesting. I have to think about this one for a second. Yeah, which is the point of this debate. So Yeah Why is it okay for cows? Why shouldn't cows have rights, but humans should have these fundamental rights? Well, I think one thing that is different is the human like capability of cognition And being able to think and reason is something that separates us from animal. Okay, so we're just putting our cognition Which We'll call it cognition To a human degree an average human degree or something. So what about this cognition because obviously cows have cognition? Yes, but you believe that humans have called cognition matters far more complex than cows Yes, I do. Okay. And do you have any other traits that separate us? So because we can go through all that once you've got a list we can go through them. Okay, sure Well, I guess a difference between humans and animals is Formational society complex society. It's so complex society because you know animals can fit. Yes, they can so they can have small communities But I think the the structure and the different levels of a human society are far beyond what animals have Okay. Yeah. Yeah, of course we have built a very structured on different principles to animal It's all hierarchies able to construct Complex civilization and you said something like the structure of our civilization is different for example I'm no biologist, but I Humans can form society off the principle. So for example democracy is One system that humans have and that isn't necessarily based solely on the principle of what is best for survival of the human species Especially at the stage right now. So we're having this debate and We could elect a leader based on the principle of veganism where the animals should have the same rights as humans animals don't form their Hierarchies based off that same principle their soul concern is always survival We operate under to operate under democratic principles. I'd say so. It's an interesting one. So you've got Cognition high-level cognition you called it reason reason Able to construct complex civilization. Yes, and you've got operate under democratic principles. Yes, they're the differences that justify Killing cows for burgers and not human beings meaning humans can have these fundamental rights protecting them and animals should not or Don't don't don't deserve them kind of thing I don't think that if humans stopped eating animals that that would be that animals would stop getting killed for food That's a different question My question is principally should animals have rights and you said no, they should not not like humans not fundamental rights Yeah, I'm not only talking about not not the same rights. I'm talking about the same negative rights Okay, sure not to be interfered with and you said they shouldn't because there's something different about us And now we're at the differences. Okay, and then you just kind of went off track Well, I don't want to go off track too much But we can't because we can debate all those things. I'm not avoiding them. I'm just trying to keep it focused on the difference Okay, so the first one you said um High-cognition. Yes, okay So this one here is actually quite easy to debunk because there are human beings who have these human rights The rights I'd wish to extend to non-human animals that don't have a high degree of cognition Would you support taking their rights away? No, I wouldn't and you can think of the communities. I'm talking about yes human beings I'm talking about a baby even a baby even yeah, so until a baby reaches this high level of cognition I can just violate their rights. Yeah, however, this baby has the capability to reach that higher level of cognition Yeah, that animals don't have animals That no animals can debunk that because we just did prior to that because I said there are communities of people without don't They aren't able to they have a faculty Disability that they can't they might even have had an accident car accident and they're they lost some type of brain capacity I mean, they should still have human rights though. Hey, yeah, but they're part of they are humans and Okay, now we're getting a different trait here. You know, this is a different trait So they have heart of the human species. Yeah, they're part of a species who has this higher cognition That's this capability to reach a high level of cognition. Yeah, so even though they can't Like there are people who can never reach this Higher ability of cognition Because they're part of a species that that can yeah, they should have human rights the animal shouldn't Yes, okay, we're gonna have to tie all these you think so Okay, that's good you're good for so obviously these these human beings That there are human beings who can't reach this high level of cognition and they're unable to construct complex civilizations I mean, I'm not unable to come construct a complex civilization And there are human beings who can't operate under Democratic principles as well the people that can't vote or even can there are people that We still protect with human rights who can't do any of these things. Yes, because human rights are universal and based on inherent value Yeah, they're not based on any of these things Well, actually, well, they're not The declaration of universal human rights that was not based on any of this stuff. What was it based off of? I? I'm not actually sure was it inherent value inherent value Part of the human species is an interesting one because because you could just say I don't know You could just say well, it doesn't matter if they can't do any of these things They're part of the human species species who can yeah, yeah, let's just change their DNA little so Hypothetically we change this this person who's this human being who doesn't have a high level of cognition Who's unable to construct a complex civilization who doesn't have the capacity to operate under democratic principles? Yeah, yeah, and they're no longer part of the human species But you wouldn't be able to tell actually they just have a different DNA So they have an uncanny resemblance to human species then we found out they actually didn't have a human DNA But you wouldn't be able to tell by looking at them. Is it okay to take their rights away and turn them into burgers? I'm not sure actually That's an interesting one They're not humans so on principle then They should be able to be farmed. I suppose. Yeah, I Would have to take that position. So so let me just be clear on this You would you don't have to I mean if you want if you if you believe that's that's if that's your moral framework. So basically this this Humanoid You couldn't tell the difference. They basically look like a human being they just have about the cognition of a cow They aren't able to do these things that you've listed We can take them Then humanoid basically human bit with different DNA They're not human can you know by the scientific metric, but we can take them and we can do what we do to cows to them um, I Suppose so because in this instance they aren't a person under how I would view humans and a human a human Okay, it's a legal. Oh, I suppose. Oh, yeah a human. Okay Okay, well, I guess that's where we are We part ways that's a that's a reductio. Yeah You know, that's a reductio like it's reduced it's reduced your I mean if you because we can kill billions of them then and turn them into burgers billions of human like Yeah, we'll know with kill billions of cows. We kill billions of chickens. We kill trillions of fish Yeah, um, I suppose in this case. So basically you have no consistency with your application of These moral concepts. It's just because they're human though. Yeah, I would say sorry, but um With that, do you do you think that there are Universal moral principles Then as your basis for I mean, I think that we should extend these fundamental rights based on inherent value to those who share that Property sentence with us. Yes. Otherwise we create a massive contradict contradiction Saying we expect this but screw them or they can't They don't have a higher cognition able to construct complex civilizations operate under democratic democratic Principles and not part of our human species. So we should be able to do what we want to them I don't have that. I think we should extend these otherwise. I just think we're huge moral hypocrites Okay, sure. Um, okay, if I if I can see this then and can see that We should extend rights to sentient animals Um, okay, and so you change your position now. You're off the reductio I think I might change my position here. Um, because I'm curious safe. We won't edit that out I think so. Um with the uh So so we we've stopped farming sentient animals. They've got equal rights Um, or or they've got animal rights fundamental rights. Yeah um With the idea of veganism as a whole Would it be wrong to eat an egg that you find? Just an unfertilized egg because that not intrinsically no, no not intrinsically so that wouldn't so that's not why i'm against eating eggs By the way, why are you against eating eggs then? because the industry entails uh, rights violations and egregious cruelty as well a welfare issue as well But mainly because it's incredible rights violation the the animals are selectively bred in order to produce eggs there But essentially egg laying slaves machines Um causing enormous strain on their bodies. They often die in sheds free rangers. No better the male chicks are Exterminated in gas chambers or um, uh, they're minced up alive in blenders Because they don't lay eggs actually and the industry will will gas all these birds are over 90% gas these birds and uh Turn them into pet food or processed meat for human beings so it's an egregious rights violation and a horrible welfare issue and also, uh, can uh Containing birds like this is bad for a bird flu and uh zoonotic diseases as well But um, yeah, but that's why i'm against eating eggs and also viewing eggs as food To begin with like what you're doing. What about eating an egg is where these factory farms began? Okay, so your principle for this aspect of veganism is not based on It is based in the current situation of how animals are farmed, but if For example gathering eggs from the wild So subsistence egg farming, I suppose Was how eggs were collected the the chickens weren't harmed in the process of you just going out Have their rights violated? I think what we we're going to get these wild so you're foraging for wild chicken eggs in nature Yeah, I suppose So in nature, I think chickens only lay about So about 10 to 15 eggs a year. Okay, you're talking about taking their egg Yes, it's not like in in in farming situation. They've been selectively bred to lay 300 So in that situation, you probably are violating some kind of right of that Interest of that of that bird, um, but let's just say it's been left there and abandoned Okay, you find an abandoned egg and you eat it in isolation and you don't promote it And you and you and you no longer view eggs as food, but you're in some situation where you've got to eat it You know, I mean, yeah, I mean, I don't have an issue with that I don't think it's intrinsically wrong to do that Let's just like if you found a piece of dog poo on the ground and you ate it I is an unfertilized egg any more than a waste product No, it's actually a product But it doesn't it what what use would it go to if it's just left and it won't be fertilized Like if it's a bit of dog shit on the ground and you walk up and eat it like I don't I don't think it's intrinsically wrong Okay, so you can eat it, but it's it shouldn't be viewed as a food product is I think the reason that the animals are in this situation like so I mean, I would have a I wouldn't have an issue with you eating dog poo because it's obviously not a product But what happens is if you really like the dog poo and all your friends find out about the dog poo And then you start farming and which is a situation we're actually in this isn't a This isn't a logical fallacy a slippery slope This is a slippery slope that you can actually prove. This is what happened Eggs became food. They selected liberate chickens. Now we have factory farms So if you really like the dog poo that you just picked up randomly and it becomes a product of resource and we're enslaving dogs And doing what we're doing now, then yeah, I'll have a pretty bit of an issue with just Viewing that product as food because it's mentality that led led us there But less of an issue than an actual rights violation. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I see I see you're going about this. Yeah Yeah, that's I think that's the rights violation primarily like yeah, so so the attitude of viewing animal products as food has led to This there we are today and then You say that there'd be a regression if we started to we're just basically going back to ground zero essentially Okay, but that is a secondary concern from the actual rights violation and animals having rights Yeah, I see I'll be less concerned with it. I'm not like a full-on dogmatist. Oh my god. There's no situation It's always inherently bad. Yeah. Yeah. No, I see what you mean. Okay. Yeah, that's fine Do you have any uh, did you want to discuss because now you are pushed you off of the mass murder of these Poor humanoid people I'm glad they don't exist. Yeah, and I'm glad we pushed you off of that position actually, but uh, can we uh go to What would happen to all the you at first you wanted to talk about what would happen to all the farm animals? Yeah, what would happen? So so these issues right of justice and like applying rights to sentient beings They usually happen in stages and in different places around the world first. I don't it's not like just what ubiquitous boom Rights everywhere, you know, so it would happen in stages and also the boycotts of people like yourself who may think it's unjustified to Put into demand these products that violate animal rights and cause egregious suffering and killing that would happen gradually too So there would be a gradual slowdown between demand and supply So that would stop breeding animals because the animals are here because they yeah because they're in demand Yeah, and they bred they're bred they're artificially bred. They're forcibly bred They're often raped They fist cows and the anus to hold their cervix and inject bull semen that they've got out of a ball Then it's horrible. That's how they're breeding them. That's why they exist because of the demand So as demand goes down So the supplier and then when animals have rights by that time They're probably not many animals being bred into existence because they'll do something like a phase out Yeah I said you mean, yeah, they'll be a slowdown in the our government would go tomorrow Stop they'll have to say or there'll be like a 10-year phase out of this industry Yeah, yeah, of course wouldn't happen And then with the animals that are left would obviously have a bunch of people who believe in animal rights Then because we probably have something something like a different a cultural shift and we protect those animals. Okay Yeah, I see you can't really release into the wild because they're not wild animals We created them they'd get eaten up by predators, which I wouldn't be in favor of okay. Yeah, sure, but it okay, so then Those sentient animals that are wild that get eaten by other animals Do you think that's just the way of the world or do you think the rights of those animals getting Prayed upon should be protected as well. Yes. Yes as well. Okay. Think about the movie um alien Let's just say they're an obligate carnivore and in a survival situation. Would we allow them to go and just eat a bunch of humans? I see. Yeah, that would shoot them dead. Wouldn't me. Is that not a violation of that creatures? No, there's competing rights here. I mean if you're competing rights on space Yeah, so basically you're allowed to defend yourself if you try to kill me Pray have a greater right to survival than their predators because their predators are wild Think about it. Put it in the human. Put it in the human context. We shouldn't allow uh vicious uh Monsters to come and eat us just because they are uh You know their predator natural predators and in a survival situation like so, let's just say I've got a sanctuary, right? And I've got we have animal rights. Okay, and I've got a sanctuary I'm protecting these the last of these sheep from the animal industry. Yeah. Yeah, and there's uh some wolves Okay, right and these wolves need to eat the starving hungry. Yeah now they come into Essentially they have rights now these my sheep your sheep. Yeah, but they're not my sheep. They are sheep I mean guardianship of sheep have rights. It's like children. They have their own rights But anyway, these I'm protecting and giving them guardianship wolves come they need to eat And they come in and try to shred my sheep alive The sheep in my caroline. Yeah, should I allow that to happen? If you think it's your if you think it's your duty to intervene then Yeah, you shouldn't allow that to happen. If they were children now, I would protect them. Yes I wouldn't say well, they're natural predators. What are you on about dude? Yeah, okay So I wouldn't have a double standard there like if it was humans if it was you right now I'm about to get shredded by a lion. I wouldn't go lions though, bro Natural circle alive, bro. Yeah, I suppose so. Yeah I'm asking for consistency. I know it sounds a bit crazy. Should we go out into the wild to protect Animals from predators? Well, I'm just like thinking about our contribution first Um, it's a practical issue practical issue Out there. It's crazy out there. You know, I don't think just because something's natural It means it's good. Do you think because something's natural it's ethical or good? Um No, I don't think nature can be a basis or what we see is a basis for what is right Then I don't know what necessarily whether there is a basis for right at all Which I suppose is a different argument altogether. But um, well, I think maybe I think I think it's it's a fair judgment to say that There are there are rights rather than there aren't because if there aren't rights and you're wrong If you say there aren't rights and you're wrong, then that's a lot worse than you say Oh that that people should or beings should have rights and then you're wrong because if you say I get that Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess you either say that you say I'm hearing on the side of cautions Yeah, so it's um Pascal's wager but with rights. I suppose you say some people say rights don't exist They're a subjective construct, you know, but I do think they they have great utility Yeah, and we should have them because I want human rights And I think human rights should be universal and I do think we should extend them to animals And I think we got you to that position. I think is there anything else you want to quickly discuss Do you have any other how do you feel about this discussion by the way? I think it's been very interesting. Yeah, I did very very violence productive as well. Have I shifted you off any positions? um I think you Definitely shaken my position. I think what I want to do now is probably go back to a little bit of research and see Open my eyes a bit more to why aren't you vegan? Why aren't I vegan? Um, because I enjoy meat, I suppose and I enjoy Tasty food and meat can be very tasty Do you think um because we derive sensory pleasure from an action that morally justifies the action? um, not necessarily I I like to Not necessarily I I like no, so no, I I think that sensory pressure isn't a simple justification for this I think well, I previously uh believed in ethical farming practices And I in my in my previous view. I I thought that if a product has been ethically farmed Then there is nothing wrong with eating that meat. But I think now I'm going to go and probably to a A lot more research into What basis I have for that opinion if that makes sense I get you I get you ethical farming is an interesting one Okay, we can we can debunk that in practice and in principle. So we've got practice Yeah, you know, it's ethical farming. What's that ethical slaughterhouses? What do you mean by that? But then in principle we already we discussed the principle discussed the principle of farming overarching. Yeah So that that's that's why previously. So yeah, it's probably more I think it is productive just to discuss the principle because then we get to the rest of it, which is like Yeah, so basically Do you think you have a moral justification not to be vegan right now? um Because you're putting to demand this this thing that yeah, yeah, um With I that's very interesting. I'm not entirely sure I think I've still got a few questions. So for example with your sheep that you're guarding We're in a vegan world now. We've got animal rights and I'm guarding these sheep So this is what's hinging on you not supporting the industry right now. I was just curious once that sheep dies You respect its body then Is that part of its negative rights to leave the body of the sheep to honestly don't think that's part of negative rights I think it's part of dignity and I and now that we we recognize as uh, then as having inherent value I think we should be treat their body with dignity and put them in burial because that would have a name And they would be they would have personhood they'd be respected because then eating the animals leads to Demand of animals and viewing them as products these we're back at ground zero In that case, there's probably not very much as far as I can see in this right now much justification for not being vegan I suppose Yeah, so I think you I think maybe It would be good thing to look up how to be vegan and making sure that you're uh, having a healthy whole foods plant-based diet And I think you should supplement with b12 of course because uh, it's a it's a nutrient of concern So, I mean there's plenty of resources online There is so many dude like and it's very easy and there's an there's an array of vegan options So but if it is a little inconvenient at first you have to weigh up that that small amount of inconvenience with decapitating animals for this For pleasure basically because you like the taste in the same way of inaction against egregious human rights violations. I wouldn't simply Slowly one more way down I'd I'd like to think I'd analogize it with human beings and it's easy to make these moral decisions And it's a very that's a cheap You'll know more than a lot of people who have been vegan for a long time if you apply that principle You'll actually be able to navigate these discussions a lot You'll be able to develop a lot of people if you just put humans in place of the animals But but what we did here is we try equalized human beings leveled them out Yeah, we leveled them out a little bit so that it made it, you know, because obviously There are certain things that if we're more sentient than a certain being then obviously we should have more Of a consideration if it's one or the other But not for taste pleasure and things like this, you know what I mean? So there are different ways to justify it, but I think like you have great principles To go off of now. Yeah. Yeah. No. Well, thank you very much. I think that was productive Enjoy, uh classics. Yes, I shall You should look up to Pythagoras. Pythagoras. Yes He was one of the first animal rights activists and he even inspired the guy that was afraid of beans I don't know if I remember I was afraid of beans Yeah, I think that's why he died because he didn't want to touch any beans and he was getting chased down But that might be someone else Yeah, he was getting chased down by some people trying to kill him and his his religious cult For whatever reason were very opposed to beans and he came up to bean fields human beans human beans. Maybe maybe sentient beans He thought that was sentient beans He thought they're out to get him. But um, yeah, no, but he inspired, uh, William Shakespeare actually to be, uh, against Killing of animals and William Shakespeare has a poem a poem about the dairy industry and why it's bad. Okay. Well, probably have a look at that Animal rights stems pretty far back into I can imagine actually. Yeah. I mean to be fair you look at um Da Vinci I don't know. Another animal rights activist. Oh, was he? Yeah, well, it's very interesting as well seeing because of the classics There's a very different attitude to um animals back then because you've got animal sacrifice And things like that. So it's interesting to see I suppose a development from Sort of almost gratuitous killing of animals. So now what some people view as Uh, killing of animals for utility to actually it's there's no utility in killing them at all I think it's gotten way worse for animals and it's gotten better I've been an activist for a long time. Actually, uh, way it's way worse It's way out of controls as a result of industrialization. There are more gas chambers now than they've ever been in history for pigs There are more there are more slaughter factories now than they've ever been in history. There are more torture facilities farms factories prisons Now than it's ever been in history. There are more Sea animals being tortured and murdered than it has ever been in history. We've we've regressed Right now is the dark ages for animals. Okay, and we and we're all Oblivious to it because it's happening right now behind our you know Behind marketing and labeling and all these things, you know, yeah But I don't want to put you in uh dystopia, but when she went you know, I understand. Yeah, especially with um, what we've discussed now. Yeah, I see Once you open up once you open up pandora's box. You want a moment about your position? Yeah, definitely. Well On you mate. Thank you very much. Take care. I hope you enjoyed that chat with hugo I was doing a live stream after I was driving back from Cambridge And hugo actually left a message saying Enjoyed our conversation earlier. I might just have to change my ways so there you go a bit of a bit of a happy ending with hugo there a very intellectually honest guy and he Bit the bullet and then changed his position when he realized that maybe he doesn't want to hold a moral frameworks That's so inconsistent. So I really do respect intellectual honesty and someone who's able to change their position after realizing that the position has Not so ethical conclusions. So Good talking to you hugo and I'll see you all in the next debate