 Good morning, let's now start this final panel, because we are running late behind our schedule. This last panel will approach the Spanish law development and challenges and it's a true pleasure for me to introduce it with such good company. We will continue the order we have in our program for the presentations and I will kindly ask my fellow panellists to use maximum 15 minutes. So with no further ado, I would like to introduce Judge Bata Saracarathon in the role of introducing a person that everyone knows like an oxymoron, isn't it? As you all know, he has been involved in the area of fighting against impunity and serious personal consequences, but currently he still plays an intense role in the area of the struggle against impunity through his own foundation and the most recent piece of information is a councillor in the International Court and the Committee of Prevention of the Council of Europe. The most recent one is since 2009, the President of Europe for the World's Jurisd Association so without further ado, I would like to give the floor to Judge Bata Saracarathon. Judge, when I reach 15 minutes you stop me. Thank you very much and good morning everyone. I believe we have to celebrate that at last we have illegally showed that it was necessary and being necessary it also gathers part of the big aspirations that both the memorialist movements as well as activist movements as well as victims and experts have requested, these years have gone by. Law 20-2020-2019 of October is part of the group of laws or regulations that in different countries have anchored or stemmed from the Conventional Law or International Law of Human Rights, Humanitarian Law, etc. for each one of the basic principles that since more for the last 40 years have been developed in the different countries. We have to make a brief mention to the Law of Historic Memory of the year 2007 which at that time was a very important milestone in a country like ours where after the dictatorship, after the transition, we still had to wait until December 2007 so that that law could see the light with many restrictions but still now we have had to wait even more in the area of justice and in the sphere of truth. Maybe with that law we will be able to start seeing the fulfilment of the basic principles of the International Law and the human rights to memory, to truth, to justice and to compensation and guarantees of non-repetition. At least as I said, this law is based on those principles and on the recommendations that all international organizations such as the Rapporteur of Truth Memory and Justice Repair and Guarantees of Non-Repetition in the Council of Europe have forced the disappearing of people. The different organizations both from the Council of Europe as well as other institutions define what should a law of democratic memory be like. What is important is to point out the necessity of this rule, of this norm. As you know, whenever any initiative is criticized, an initiative that is related to the democratic memory in Spain, one tends to see the statement that this is reopening old rules, it's a law that is not necessary, but in that very same discourse we see the need, its own need. What is the fundamental advance as far as I am concerned with respect to the law of December the year 2007? That is that we go from an existential state that is what was represented in that rule offering a support, subventions whenever they were eliminated as we could see in 2011 with Mr Rajoy's government to an active, proactive state, accepting this law, imposing the state the obligation of being proactive in the implementation and development of the law while creating institutions, while creating mechanisms that necessarily involve the state in an action or activity which is proactive in its own nature. Memory as we all know is something that has to do with the present and future. Some people criticize it by saying that this is part of the past and that it's not contributing with anything it creates as a society, as a people, with a level of solidarity so that the future is more integrative and diverse. I don't know what happened, the effects that have taken place in the existence of that rule and those that are still here to come. With the law of democratic memory in 20-22, the state, as I said, accepts and embodies the role of supporting the rule while protecting the victims in these fears that were mentioned of truth, justice, repair and guarantees of non-repetition, incorporating the recommendations and adding a fundamental element that as you may well remember was the object of a debate with respect to the law of amnesty of 1987, October 1987, about the debate that as for the derogation of the law, others not defended that it was not necessary to have derogation and finally it was included a mention in article 2 of that law that clearly states what is the intention of that law. If you allow me to do so, remember my own personal history, in one way or another, even if quite a few years have gone by since the year 2008 when I decided that we have to research and investigate the frankest crime scene in the 18th of December of the same year that did not prosper and finally gave rise to a penal procedure stopping my activity as a judge. In that resolution, there we could see some arguments that now are law in one way or another that some kind of a poetic justice beyond the fact that I was right and that statement came from the UN because the current government is not really bothering on how to repair my case for example, that's a different story, that's not today's story but definitely it's important to understand that the arguments given about the law of amnesty in my case was what now is seen in the law. It was not necessary to derogate the law, but simply it was important to see or to the interpretation of regular rules that can never be an obstacle in order to investigate crimes of less on money than war crimes, international crimes as the crimes referred to civil war and during the Franco dictatorship as you may well know and if not I'll tell you this law declared it's illegal both the war as a consequence of a coup d'etat of 1936 and then further dictatorship in all its extension embodying each one of the institutions and actions that took place from society, justice society and each one of the organizations that during that time generated the constant and permanent repression of victims. We have topics that will be observed that has to do with the prescription who are all the facts prescribed are they all international crimes? Some of them since 1945 after the Nuremberg or Tokyo we could say well there we have the interpretation and then the law determines the right to investigation it's the right of victims we put the victim right at the core it's the fundamental backbone that right at this moment changes the conception and the concept and what has to be after the 19th of October of the year 2022 I remember that when I said we have to investigate I was not inventing things I was implementing the international principles to international law we had to protect victims we have to guarantee the right to investigation and then let's decide then let's decide if there is a responsibility or if there is not such thing because you don't result from that or whatever but investigation is the right this law gathers that right this is fundamental inside the institutions that create the law itself one of the main I think it's article 48 and there's a fifth addendum well in any case we have the office of human rights and democratic memory this office is a fundamental institution it generated a gradual debate well there's a we have a threat if the government changes in coming elections the popular party not to mention far right wing because they manifest on the 20th so with no obstacle they will say we will derogate the law that's what they say derogating laws are not so easy and leaving the institutions without power is not so that easy either but this institution this office considering the competence it has is fundamental not only in democratic memory but also in human rights it connects the law with the defense of human rights the coordination of the fiscal ministry in the struggle for human rights linking it to the democratic memory it's very important to see that link because up until now it seemed like this were two different worlds let's say that the Spanish legislative initiative that maybe you didn't notice this in all its extensions connects this element to the rest it gives it a very wide scope the competences of that office are described in that law but they are open enough as to let the development fulfill that principle of defense of the victim and not the other way around as up until now we heard we see that they have to participate in exhumations of course it doesn't mean anything some people say if you read the laws with that perspective of putting the victim right in the core of it all we'll see that the competences are very important and all this all this connected to the right to investigation will indicate where we are standing and where the law should or how far the laws should reach this law can be nothing or maybe nothing there's not a will to develop the principles in the line that I am now using without a shade of a doubt we, my foundation and many others many of the movies are part of the platform of defense of the commission of the truth law doesn't speak about the commission of truth it doesn't speak about a body called commission of experts that determines some terms of how and when everything should be and how it all should be developed so it recognizes the right to truth through that mechanic through the mechanics of the commission that some people call the commission of truth some people call it a technical commission determining different spheres, expert spheres in the area of economic repair and compensation it's very important it is true that the law suggests that direct revivification will take place but through the mechanism and through the commission of experts that establish that there should be an audit that should determine how and in what way the claims should be accepted and done well the mechanic of it, of action is both has some obstacles but there are ways through or inside the law that will allow this to progress if the interpretation as I said follows the line of integral protection of the victim and as I was told that I had exceeded my time maybe if there are any questions I'll answer them thank you thank you so much for these considerations and for being so strict with your time well now let me give the floor to Juan Carlos García Bravo representing the Association of Social and Democratic Memory I missed it where they work on the legislation on the memory one of the issues the most or the newest issues in the lines that they try to open up and the different activities of history and memory after the different governments wants to actively participate in the creation of the platform of the commission of truth where a hundred organizations take place actively and well, you have the floor thank you good morning everyone and thank you for your kind invitation to these work days I will try to summarize the position of my association I missed it about the new law of democratic memory let me start with context and history because in the context we have to determine the two debates that have been produced on the 14th of July in the congress and the 5th of October in the senate in both debates right-wing adopted a position that we are used to which was nearly wild they accused people they nearly insulted everyone and it was most bizarre they constantly praised the constitution of 1978 and the period of the democratic so-called democratic transition while accusing the speakers those that proposed that law they were accused of betraying both the constitution of 1978 as well as the as well as the agreement or the transition agreement on the first component of the supposed betrayal of the left-wing that took place as a consequence of having approved that law spare those that are not systematically fulfilling the law with the renewal of the judiciary power is accusing others of such non-fulfillment but also if we go to the origin the constitution of 1978 and the votations that took place initially in the congress or in the parliament out of the 16 parliamentary which were the predecessors of our right-wing only eight voted in favor and five voted against and the rest did not vote so that praise that support the constitution in the best possible case is so the transition the transition that was also according to them betrayed was a process where the left-wing powers tried to determine how to finish, how to end Franco's dictatorship and to bring democracy it was a complex period we were able to bring democracy but we have to understand that the state mechanisms were highly penetrated by Franco's dictatorship left over so we went through a very convulsed period and that moment is when we had the attempt of coup d'etat for 1981 where the military forces were about to end democracy and with many entwined the lives of many Democrats finally we had to reach the 2007 to approve to pass the first law on democratic memory this is a law which certainly was not enough it was not sufficient because on the one hand the state did not fully accept the management on the exhibition of victims the state declared it didn't declare the nullity of the sentences of Frankism plus other defects but we had to understand that it was a starting point so that action could be started on the area of exhibition or the elimination of the remains or the names of certain streets that were still reminded Franco's time and it was a booster so that 13 autonomous committees could dictate their own laws of democratic law that are still active the situation right now is as you can see in the map I will start by saying those that did not approve the laws of democratic memory because we will finish even sooner Galicia, Madrid, Castilla, La Mancha and Murcia did not approve the law of historic memory three days or the rest days apparently Madrid is one of the regions that need to pass a law on historic or democratic memory having been the capital of a reference of the resistance to the coup d'etat in Madrid well unfortunately we do not have a law of democratic memory in Madrid this has been overcome because the new law gathers the rest parts of the country but it also indicates that in those areas maybe it will be more difficult to apply the new norm with all this legislative effort that took place as a consequence of all these rules and regulations in the different regions we see that the problems were not fully solved because the autonomous regions do not have the right competences in fundamental areas of democratic memory necessarily we had to have a state law that just arrived with law 2022 so this new law 2022 is the result of an agreement between the political parties, the socialists and Unidas Podemos and in their agreement there is a section on recovery of democratic memory it is true however that we already had the experience of the regions, the autonomous communities so there was already a pressure a line of legislative development on democratic memory but it was with this coalition government between the Socialist Party and the left wing Unidas Podemos when there was finally the proper basis for a new law so what's the new law about with a gross summary, I'll say a few words although my colleague Garthon has already talked about the contents so I'll be very brief on this, first the victims of the coup d'etat and the dictatorship are recognized and both crimes are rejected, this is article number one this is the starting point, then they establish the principles of truth, justice, reparation and guarantees for no repetition and that same article number two tells us that justice needs to be interpreted the judges they say have to interpret the law in compliance with the international law in human rights, which sounds a bit weird doesn't it they are telling the judges how they should interpret the law, I mean is there any other way of interpreting the law which doesn't respect international law, well then there is again a detailed definition of victims they talk about the illegal and absolutely null character of the rulings and sanctions of the courts in the francus times and they illegalize the special court for repression of communism and masons and the so called court of public order, then there is another point on remembering the victims another point on the state censors, we've already heard of it, state censors of victims and article seven of the law talks about the recognition of people who fought for freedom and that takes us to point number eight, which is crucial point number eight of the law, the state is the leader in the quest for identification and the tracing of the disappeared people this is no longer in the hands of private individuals which is what the previous law in 2007 had established, no it is now the state which has to clearly lead this task which is an essential task for democratic memory the law states that the administrative and judicial authorities have to declare the findings of remains to the fiscal ministry to study the possibility of crimes, it creates the state attorney special state attorneys for human rights and democratic memory, it creates the idea of reparation for seized goods with two procedures first an audit has to be done on the pillaged goods and assets and then the possibility of implementing different channels to offer reparation to those affected, so there is a long path ahead of us which will have to be walked another point Spanish nationality is granted to the volunteers of the Brigadas Internacionales 14 removal of any symbols of the dictatorship and the Article 15 Bands Public Acts which could be a humiliation to victims 16 inclusion of democratic memory and public teaching 14 ages, 17 memory places and the change of the regime of the Cuelga Mudos and the Democratic Memory Council is created. Now, is this a whole of the law? Well, if it isn't it is a good starting point, it is a source a seed on which to base the structure that we know as the commission of the truth which has been set up in many of the contexts. So what does my association think of this law? Well, we think it is a law which is a useful tool to put an end to impunity. I'm not saying it is a perfect tool which solves problems in a way. I'm just saying it is a useful tool and I base this on three reasons. First, it covers all the fundamental aspirations of victims and most of the memorialistic associations. The second reason is that it establishes suitable procedures to implement it and third, because it doesn't close the door to any potential evolution if aspects are found that have to do. What is left to do? We can expect difficulties in the implementation of the law for two main reasons. Because of a judiciary which is quite reluctant to its implementation, it's not very sensitive to democratic memory tasks. It is reluctant when it comes to implement international human rights law. And second, because we have a very combatant right wing which is going to make the implementation of this law very difficult. We believe that those are the main challenges for the law. Look at the text itself which we believe is interesting. It is comprehensive. We believe it has potential. We believe that the difficulty will be the implementation. Because of what I just said, we are bound to come across an opposition from these two groups I just mentioned. We believe that we need to work in two different main lines. First, the administration needs to quickly urgently set up the right measures to specify the law. For example, give it the right budget for exhumations for the new state attorney. We believe that simple and open procedures need to be established for citizens to demand the implementation of this law. We need to act. I mean, the law is great news. And just the other day, the government opened a file, just one minute if I may, on the demonstrations that have just recently been held on the last 20th and typical Francoist date. Second point, we need to develop two campaigns, programs for awareness raising of democratic values. And we need to fight to reactionary mantra. First, the reactionary idea of let sleeping lions lie. No, let's not open the wounds from the past. No, we believe that the only people who can close those wounds are the victims. And the ones who are saying now that we shouldn't open those wounds are the perpetrators. That is shameful. The second mantra is that no, we don't have time for this and we have all the most important issues, inflation and unemployment. We are absolutely in favour of fighting inflation and unemployment, but bread is not incompatible with justice. And it's not just that it's compatible, it's complementary. Finally, if you have no justice, you have no bread, you have no peace. Thank you. Thank you, Juan Carlos for this brief revision. Apologies for being so strict with my time keeping, but yeah, we are tight on time. I'm now going to give the floor to Sonia Oliveira, who is a member of the Board of Ateneo Popular. She's a specialized lawyer in criminal law and human rights law. She coordinates historical memory in the strategic court case of Iridia and she's been lately much publicized in the media because she's prepared a court case by Carlos Vallejo on the new law of democratic memory. Thank you. Thank you, Rosana, for your presentation and thank you for inviting us to this panel with so many illustrious speakers as representative of a body from the Civil Society. Ateneo Popular is a body which has many members who work on memory in Catalonia. We have been trying to also have voices heard in the new law and I must say that we are very happy that the process was started and we are very happy that the law is being implemented. I'm going to try and focus on some of the elements which for us stand out for us are most important, apart from the wonderful presentations we've already heard on the new law. The Ateneo from our members we celebrate this break through this new law. The final text is a considerable step forward versus the initial draft and that is thanks to the democratic parties work with their debate and their phrasing of the standard despite the extreme fright which always works there trying to bring things down memorialistic associations and victims associations have to be recognized for their excellent work particularly considering the scarce resources they have they've done their best to improve this law. So we celebrate this break through particularly comparing the law in 2007 which was already quite innovative in fact it was the first one but it had many lacuna Now we want to focus on some of the key elements for us in the law. First the definition of victim there is a clear and wide generous definition of victim in the law they cover an intersectorial and gender perspective which is important and they recognize not the so called just people who suffer reprisals and other groups of victims Another important break through which we believed was difficult but it was obtained is the time element. This is very important in the law. It doesn't just cover Franco's times. It's not up until when the dictator died. No it goes beyond that it covers the transition years it admits something which is evident but it's good to have it recognized and it's that during the transition human rights were violated and that is enshrined in the new law. The new law also is a considerable improvement versus the previous one on gender perspective not just in article 3 in definition of victims but also in other articles for example they talk about collectives which have been historically neglected even silenced because of the reprisals they suffered and the role in their struggle to obtain democratic rights for everybody. For example references is made to the Roma community the LGTBI community and there is an article not just as victims of specific reprisals women but mention is made that a special effort must be made to look into the struggle of women and their relevant role to achieve the democratic principles that now rule our lives and which we celebrate. There are other points which previous speakers have already mentioned for example the issue of graves that was shameful in Spain and finally it is now established that it is up to the state ex-officio has to lead this work they have to open graves they have to exceed those remains they've been waiting for years those victims apart from those improvements something else we say is that the text of the law establishes basis it opens up the possibility for in the future to implement future public memory policies which should be up to the level of what is found elsewhere so as we just heard it opens new possibilities it closes no doors so as Judge Garthon was saying we remain there expectant to see how the law is going to be developed I think that there are many many articles which point to the right direction but it remains to be seen how the law is going to be implemented and regulated for us that's where we believe that we need to keep a close eye on things for example something we celebrated at the Ateneo because one of our members is former political prisoners and they've been working very hard to make sure that their history reaches school books, textbooks and they've been fighting from civil society without state support and now finally the law states that this part of the history will be taught in our history textbooks and young people will learn of it but it remains to be seen how this is going to be developed, implemented and what funds are going to be assigned to it and then another point is memory places, article 49, 50 and 51 on memory places, I mean the articles are great they're really well drafted, they're a wonderful seed let's see how they're implemented, article 49 means that exo-physio it can be declared that repression symbol the police station in Biala Yetana can be declared in something illegal and it has to become a memory symbol I mean it is clear this needs to happen but it remains to be seen what happens with Biala Yetana and the same thing happens with the illegality of the rulings and the courts that is a great breakthrough those courts are now illegal their rulings are null and void but as our members have been saying the nullity or the declaration of illegality through some courts without it having legal repercussions this is useless, we need to see how this is going to affect the people who were condemned whose lives were affected their private lives and their association lives we need to see what claims can be made now apart from the huge breakthroughs let me now go back to memorialist associations which at the end of the day is the members I represent we want to also talk about what the law might mean in terms of justice, we have publicly stated our doubts that the law may serve to break away from the model of the Spanish immunity what we call the impunity model I agree with what has already been said by the other speakers it gathers international human right law it makes reference to other things that have been said in international bodies UN rapporteur etc are still skeptical and the people I represent we're not sure that this law is going to really serve a purpose to make sure that claims against the rulings in Franco's times to proceed we believe that this is not going to happen and this is because the courts and the legal framework that was already there international law has to be applied we all know that and that already used to happen before and nevertheless judges and courts because of our ruling which everybody is familiar with from 2012 the possibility of having court cases against those crimes against humanity against mankind so we criticize the fact that the law hasn't been ambitious enough to force the Spanish judiciary to have to implement international law and for them to have to look into Franco's times crimes I won't go into it because this is boring for non-legal experts these could have been further developed the issue of we don't even need to derogate international law was already there this is a lost opportunity this law needs to be interpreted and obviously the case, the element of crimes not having prescription that is clear but we believe the weak element is the implementation of the application of international law we've already presented our first case after many cases but this is the first one after the new law we obviously mentioned the law and all the legal avenues it opens and we'll see what happens I'm sure it's not going to be the last legal complaint but so far there have been over 80 legal complaints in state there hasn't been a single proper inquiry and we remain fearful that this law is going to change nothing hopefully we might be wrong but at least we are hopeful because they do make special reference to international law and human rights legislation José Luis Muñoz said something which is interesting that the law says forgetting is not an option for democracy, absolutely the right to truth and the right to justice the law can make a huge contribution to the Spanish state but let us not forget that impunity is not an option either for a democracy so we need to keep fighting any breakthroughs in this sense will be welcome the right to truth, justice reparation and the guarantee for no repetition, they are all essential but all of them, if a single one of them fails, they all fail so inquiries in those crimes have to be made and that is going to have an impact on all other rights all those rights are essential so we're going to wait, I mean the text is there it's promising, nevertheless there are legislative measures that can be taken and could be very positive so let's see if there is a particular judge or court who's going to be bold enough I'd say yeah, they need to be bold enough to apply international law as stratified by the Spanish state in order to move forwards thank you thank you Sonia for all your contributions in representation of your members memorialistic associations thank you for your excellent time keeping Ramon, she's left the bar really high so do your best, we're now going to listen to Ramon Albert, he's the co-famda and chairperson for archivators in front of us, archivists without borders he has represented Spain in many world forums, he's been a consultant for the International Center for Democratic Memory in Colombia, he's been a consultant in document management for peace reconstruction in Colombia, in September 2022 he was given the fellow ICA which is the top recognition of the international archivists body so it is an honor to have you with us, the flu resolves thank you I'll try to keep up with the pace and intensity which my predecessor Sonia has left very high I want to thank obviously in Ramon the organizers for their kind invitation to be here and to address you a few words on archives first I must say that reading the law I can see obviously there is specific mention chapter 1 section 2 talks about archives and many other points of the law which prefer to archives as an essential tool to achieve the aim of the law for this I must stress that there is a direct link between the organization of the archives and the positive results that could be obtained in all these different fields so the archives are there the centrality of the archives is there and the law itself if you read it in all its specific mentions makes it clear it talks about organized archives having positive results and this is the usual problem in all fields as Sonia and the previous speakers were saying when it comes to implementing this properly we are going to need resources and continuity I tend to joke around and say that archivists being an archivist is the only profession but the time you join the profession you already have 500 years to catch up with really there is a lot to be done there is an awful lot to be done we are running very late as archivists so no matter how many resources we are giving I mean look at all the military archives all the historical archives we could benefit so much from them if only we have the resources so the law as we heard from José Luis Muñoz and Gerard Gourbella and Dalíx Peña as we heard from all of them the senses of victims itself whether it works out or not is going to depend on archives and how well they are organized and how well funded they are so the archives play a key role and the archives are mentioned in the law clearly now so I would like to add first a general consideration and then three minor points my most relevant comment is to do with something which is omnipresent when we talk about archives, memory rights and justice I am talking about the open free universal access internationally speaking there are recommendations from the United from UN, UE, the European Union the international body of archivists there are all sorts of recommendations which we could follow I mean the framework is clear but then in reality we have a myriad of regulations apart from the good will expressed in the law brings about a series of complications we have the law of judicial regime the law of data protection the law of freedom of information the law of historical heritage I mean there are a whole series of laws which reference access in particular for those of us who are not jurists they really pose a challenge to our basic aim the law in article 57 the law of historical heritage tries to go beyond what the Spanish constitution says on state security protection of private information personal details I mean there is always this basic difficulties, these basic obstacles that we have to live with now I am not a jurist so forbid from me to say what should be done in legal terms but within the law I believe they could have covered something that was suggested by Spanish archivists together with other 50 memorialist associations and archivists associations and victims relatives I mean we presented 14 well presented pages of suggestions for the law some of our suggestions where he did others were it which was one in particular for these bodies it was the list of documentary and funds that were crucial historical memories and literature our types of public order the law of bankruptcy maybe this is not the right place to develop this topic in particular but maybe we could have spoken about it apparently it seems like they should have a free university access in some cases you'd find certain interpretations in different areas this is a very open profession that follows a free access in many cases and that principle could seem like well this is a part of common that can be done how it may be protected is a big historical document funds that may be free of access how we supported this we would have avoided abusive interpretations for example in front of my mention to me that she suspected that she had been adopted stolen from the mother and she realized in certain sectors that the law said that you are not affected by this and she was asking that I am an affected person I want to know whether or not I am affected what is this kind of proof of this idea so much atomized legislation that makes it impossible to find answers maybe this amendment or this consideration could have been introduced together with these five associations or other considerations not of the same level but the center of historic memory and its definition as a place for memory is very positive right now this is highly focused on memorials and museums maybe could be or should be considered a place for memory is a real progress of law she wrote in the media that the idea of historic memory where this law allows a wide range of of big capacity of action part of their documents have been taken to the historic memory of Savanka what are your regards to the document it is there and you have to wait for three months and you will know enough investments have been made in the Ministry of Culture the law evidences the need of a strong investment so that the potential of the law can be reflected in that sense because they had to use another archives to keep part of their documents and then you had to go through the documents to find these documents article number 26 the work in acquisition of documents article is positive we have to interpret as many documents from sources the work acquisition entails an economic monetary connotation and at a certain moment this was part of sometimes the archives became monetized and it was very difficult to mark for example the case of the songs of other decent things they got into they said who pays more for this do you want to pay more? you get the documents what they put a price to memory and this has been a bad present, a negative connotation because many people would have considered a donation and now they think about money before we had been able to go to many other places to get sessions and donations and any change you would get the public recognition and gratitude so the work acquisition here has an economic connotation you could use terms such as donation, deposit, session opening up to this incapacity of being generous in the effort and helping not just giving it a more economic connotation I have five more minutes the article 26.6 the government of dictatorship that are in the hands of private bodies or of people the Flarticle Franco Foundation this article could correct it the foundation this fund has documents known as free of in some cases from the Flarticle Franco Foundation and some of which part of the documents are accepted personally and I think at home we in Catalonia have share of responsibility after Jordi Pujol's government and successively Pascual Maragans, Jose Montilla, Artur Mas and so on and so forth we had the practice of transferring nothing for free but transfer the archives to public archives and here we have unfortunately any important anomaly which is the Giuseppe Reyes archives not curiously I was a director I couldn't change things I was blamed by a part of the political establishment when I said that we should try to change things in a models tree in Montpoblet they had some private some public archives a good part of the information at that time should have been the hands of the government of Catalonia and one month ago we heard that documents were stolen not really stolen because they were copied I said so because we heard that the family of Mr. Adolfo Suarez sold to the government part of the documents as they considered these documents as private information dates with who is the owner of the archives of presidents the reference should be there but a few days ago in considering that short ago I read an article one of the persons who was writing the article the main reference took article number 54 of the law on historic heritage forces the transfer of documents so that for those who have a public position and any person who has a public position should offer his or her archives so the insidious here she represents but maybe in some other time we should consider that after Carlos Paris Navarro until the last government we had such anomalies he is doing a good thing which is mentioning the ownership of these archives to reframe the importance of law or article 54 of this law and the documents who are the owners of these documents we should also consider that in the framework of possible law of archives in spite of that would be an important case to locate and work more in them to avoid the repetition of these phenomenon of privatization of public documents in the hands of foundations or other private institutions well, thank you very much for your presentation and finally we have Mr. Carlos Jiménez Villarejo difficult to introduce a person who is so well known his work since the 1960s he was an active militant in Pesuc and his fight against the freedom in favor of the freedoms in this country and that marked the rest of his professional career in defending human rights so with no further ado I'd like to thank Mr. Jiménez Villarejo and you have the floor, sir thank you very much for your presence in this event and my gratitude to Mr. Jiménez Villarejo for having invited me to participate in this panel tell of the truth, I'm very satisfied and honored to see fellow panellists and the topic that we are speaking about which is I wanted to start my intervention which will be brief which are very meaningful let's imagine an old injustice if it's not compensated it will still be there hidden or latent waiting for a moral consciousness that always works this footprint will be there accompanying history because history has been built on top of it and this has happened after the death of the dictator for many years until finally in the year 2022 of the March of Demerillo was passed that we are said to be here so many years have gone by I would say 44 years after the constitution of 1978 44 years after 44 years after well, we can't have this law having said this I wanted to I think some of the words of the preamble of this law is very meaningful and we have to speak to them and set them up they help to gather from channel the aspirations of the civil society and the social reflection and recognizing the dignity of victims of any kind of violent fanatic violence I was asking after reading this text for the first time why? the answer is very evident because you can only on our history, our current history there was written from oblivion and silence of those that were defeated these are fundamental words to understand what this law we are celebrating here very important to give I wanted to make very brief quotes that would I would like to to state within this 15 minutes of presentation I would like to speak about the relevance of this paragraph article 2.3 of the law where the law on amnesty of the 97th century political agreement of political land rights of some months before the law on amnesty was passed by the pre-democratic government of Adolfo Suárez I believe that this is connected to article 10 to a reconstitution that they guarantee the right to truth and justice of victims of severe violations of human rights and international humanitarian rights and it concludes by saying because all those violations plus torture plus torture are or cannot be part of amnesty this has been part of a long debate sometimes putting it away from the real goals to be achieved I think it's important to remember the importance of this article 2.3 of the law on amnesty of the law on amnesty because it sets very important for the future all the evaluation and analysis of judicial resolutions all about the days remember what it means to be in this state of amnesty and that it was obvious years ago even in the final years of the law when in democracy democracy has a supreme court dictates a sentence that some may remember in here 101-2012 where they state that we cannot investigate the forced disappearance of people because those were facts that could not be investigated with no people because this meant that they either died or because those crimes stemmed from forced disappearances or had been part of amnesty this I once said by the Supreme Court in the year 2012 these resolutions were not fair they were part of a pre-breakation nature against the investigation of the crimes of dictatorship and the Spanish fascism we said this how we like to understand and appraise the importance of turn number two of justice when creating this special turn is office for the research and further prosecution in the court of human rights and the international humanitarian rights I think this is the first time that the ministry is created to truly serve justice therefore this allows to fix the ministry also during the omission of the previous stage can act to openly investigate the crimes stemming from the relation of victim facts facts described in article 2.1 or something like that where the 13 possibilities of people that have been subject to aggression against the right to life down to necessarily professional acts and this has an enormous transcendence that the fiscal ministry after this moment after this very moment it was already created creates a recuperation of democratic memory in the prosecution and formal punishment of those people that make possible to create the catastrophe and it was at the time dictatorship and fascism I personally think that we still have examples that are lost in the memory of times but I am still thinking about the judges part of the supreme court in the military the department in 1446 resolutions rejected the appeals that relatives of those people that have been executed by the imposition of death penalty in the the nullity of those sentences of those trials celebrated a critical period and those court marshals were totally fascist in nature well when we have relatives of those people that were executed at the end of the civil war beginning of the 1930s in court marshals that were totally illegal and absolutely illegal to any principle of legality the military department rejected reviewing those sentences of the court marshals that had those death penalties invoking all we are speaking about a period that was taking place in the 1990s or that military court was supporting the legality of court marshals of the 1940s with an absolute lack of democratic principles and moral principles has not been considered maybe we should reconsider the law whenever this is to also revisit those legal decisions in democracy that was a radical attack against the principles that should have the actions of any court having said this I would like to make a reference to the fact that this explains and we are going some steps looking at a documentary on Spanish TV about the Nazi concentration camps speaking about Ana Frank I sometimes wonder why we don't have more documentaries such during two hours information about the Nazi concentration camps of what the repression meant Franco's repression with other concentration camps we also had here and forms of repression that were practiced during the beginning of the Civil War in the year 1975 that's a problem I will say how this can be solved the problem generates a question in my mind and in the mind of others is how the transfer of the concept of violation of international treaties of human rights and the right how did the transfer of this concept along with democratic memory how this was transferred to the penal code that should be implemented by the fiscal ministry when acting as an attorney and as members of the legal apparatus legal machinery as we call it and those violations of human rights have a correspondence and a reference which is article 6.7 which describes the crimes which in the end speaks about crimes against humanity we all know about this so we should take some steps I don't know if it's up to the attorney's office but they created for the offense rights of people who have been attacked by this period of time to readjust it to the article 6.6 6.7 that I mentioned here abyss speaking more than expected but I would like to finish by saying that this special attorney's office was was created human rights and democratic memory we should agree considering that the information which is on the current procedures that we presently have I think it's 80 procedures that are being now managed maybe even more but what I really would like is to offer the right importance to as a citizen more the prosecutor which is the prosecution of torture the last manifestation of a dictatorship in the last years I have analyzed this in the book that I just published and there we have the names many of the people that perpetrated torture and it's a way to step down to reality in that chapter dedicated to this analysis of the 6th Brigade of Barcelona which is what we analyzed through the archives of comisiones superiores there we have the leaders of the police forces who tortured Juan González Eduardo Quintelán Juan Estevez comissario vallesteros chief of police José Matute Carlos Dominguez Inspector Pena Antonio Vicente and this just to put it in historical period of time this period that goes from December 1975 to December 1976 in that period 582 people were arrested all of them with greater or lesser intensity were victims of torture and I would like to know wouldn't it be a good thing to determine the importance of this law to enact penal procedures of crimes of torture committed by these members of the political and social of the dictatorship on social media victims among which we have current president of the association of political prisoners of frankism that presented the trial that he suffered in the political and social brigade we have to go down to earth immediately and therefore I really hope that we take the necessary steps for those who have the competence to do that not me obviously in order to progress in the fulfillment and development so expected on democratic memory thank you very much thank you very much for such considerations we are running 11 minutes late but there are so many things on the table things of interest that I am forced to with the permission of the organizers or whoever has to close to give some minutes for debate that need to be considered hello good morning I would like to ask a question with respect to the law amnesty in 1977 has an article article number 9 that clearly states that amnesty will be determined by a judge so when a judge faces the need to implement this rule we will check the facts that are affecting a person are a part of the implementation of law and that the person that these facts affect one of their circumstances determined by the law consequently will determine amnesty but law has never interpreted in that respect we always heard that the law on amnesty won't allow to investigate the fact because you are implementing the law before you determine that it's applicable why has this article never been applied as one should suppose I understand that this is addressed to me but whoever has an answer should answer it as well well the law was implemented it was interesting to some and it was like the judges really did not research they should have researched that they should have investigated when a posteriori the fact was included within the law of amnesty this was not done it was changed however because we began doing that using this opportunity well being under this law of democratic memory this should not be so but we will see that it will still continue being so this is the serious one of the serious problems of this law that is that this is a law which is good depends on the will of those that should implement it at least this law suggests something why do I have to tell judges what they have to do but actually as a attorney a judge half not done what they should have done and in Spain they didn't do that because they didn't want to do that and because the Supreme Court decided in the census that we mentioned they treated in the case against me for example where they have softened me but they say poor guy made it wrong in the interpretation I said no I didn't misinterpret it at least it's been proven that this was a right interpretation they made a mistake or wanted to make a mistake evidently this was the case the interpretation made by the Supreme Court was totally contrary to any of the principles that international right of human rights determined something which is very very applicable to the Spanish courts the human rights is not clear in their minds it was not clear any that was not the classical interpretation positivist interpretation and ultra conservative of the penal law now they have to start doing something and here will have an important very important contribution there is a gap between the attorney's office that determines or the prosecutor's office that determines some competition will generate some kind of a revolution if we consider the interpretation of judges and convince that will be totally opposed to what nothing is happening this prescribes here the law of honesty is applied or it's not applied you will have the further result why won't because we still need to include the concept of restorative justice this not only happens in the pillar it's fear but it involves the right to the investigation to right to truth it's placing the victim right at the core as I said before I think we're probably going to have to end up in the European Court for Human Rights which is one of the competitions that is established for the court attorney for the democratic members I think now the European Court for Human Rights when we, I used to take cases to it cases for economic preparation or preparation in the sense of the right to inquest the European Court said we can't go into that because that is about facts when there was normative that established the existence of the European Court of Human Rights now that's going to have to change because the current law right now establishes the obligation of inquest the obligation of finding the truth or looking for it the obligation of administering justice so if a Spanish judge doesn't do that there will be a case for the victims or for the state attorney and it will be their duty because that's what they have to do in coordination with the European Court of Human Rights for me that's essential and finally the case is already open the problem we have on those is that they will go to the supervision of the state attorneys without there still being a court attorney in the implementation of the law so what we can find is that if the state attorney doesn't establish immediately establishing the action lines for this implementation there will be a scattering there will be discrepancies according to the area or the individual state attorney that would be a shame there will be a delay in the creation of the court attorney that is crucial because that is going to play a key role in the actual implementation for the law and for these cases which are already open so it's not that this implementation is urgent it is absolutely extremely urgent the law establishes short periods of time of the victims but that also means that if things take too long this is actually going to turn against the interest of the victims so the current government has the duty to implement this speedily because the timeline starts from the day after the law was approved so the clock is ticking if there is a timeline established 6 months or 1 month that's already ticking it doesn't say when the government establishes all the regulations to implement the law it says when the law is passed hello, good afternoon I agree with the speakers that one of the main consequences of the law is going to be spaces of justice that's clear and that justice is going to have an effect on the actions of other agents which are beyond the spaces of democratic memory and that's how it is and we have jurisprudence and we have rulings from the Supreme Court and now we have a law which opens a door or a window of interpretation so I think that what is done in teaching in training in didactic this is going to be very important but I mean we've already got experiences in this I was listening to Carlos with all my admiration as usual and we have experiences in the application of criminal law I mean this could just be scary yes, I know, but it has been done it has been done and I want to mention it in Baltasar Garzón's the judge in his inquest in the crimes of the Argentinian dictatorship a thorough investigation there were opportunities for the victims to express themselves to present their case and that contributed to the closure of those impunity spaces the victims came to Spain and we had the principle of universal jurisdiction the possibility of acting against cases all over the world whatever the nationality of the victims or perpetrators and Judge Garzón's work together with claims of victims and administrations was taken to court and I had the honor of being this data attorney that worked on it we presented the thesis which was the retrospective application of crimes against humanity so we applied crimes against humanity and the section 2 of the national court condemned because of that legal classification it is true that then the supreme court took another had a different opinion and they talked of something which was very interesting which was that those facts were perpetrated within a context of crimes against humanity yes it's true that there were specific personal votes and the ruling was controversial and it meant that it was much discussed at universities but I'm not trying to be tremendously over the top optimistic because there is no call for that but I do believe that things can be done we now have a new tool the law of democratic memory over rules the old one from 2007 but it is nevertheless a continuity of it so things can be done if there is a will if there is a will and training education and pedagogy so within the pessimism of the speakers and within the expectations we have we are aware of the obstacles and challenges nevertheless I do believe this is an important law because it allows for pedagogy for training and we have tools for interpretation but I'm also optimistic because I think this law has an international side the fact that the court attorney which will have to work will have to heed human rights law means that that is expansive and the victim has to be placed at the core of all inquests with the victim's statute but also human rights are expansive and they expand international bodies of human rights we see that in different international levels I mean the field is huge and not just nationally not just nationally that's where we can find most of the challenges I do remain deeply optimistic being aware obviously of the challenges ahead of us if I may one nuance I am not pessimistic I'm a realist I always say that I am positive pessimistic I think that it's hard to change things but nevertheless we have to try I mean realistic the Supreme Court went against its own ruling which we've already heard in its ruling against me I mean it applied exactly the opposite because because full stop that was all there was to it and they went into things that were not of a legal judicial nature and in 2012 in a ruling in two different courts they closed all possibility of an inquest and they left the victims defenseless in a very cruel way saying that they were actually defending them so now what I do not trust is the interpretation of ultra conservative judges on this what the law now facilitates and that remains our word is that there are things that can be done let's go for it the door is now open to truth to justice to restorative criminal justice if needs be and that is the work that is left for us to do it's not that pessimistic it's just that the battle ahead is going to be tough a short journey not just one comment I greeted somebody from Largo Caballero Foundation he's left I wanted to say about everything that has been said something which is pretty objective which shows how a state can oppose the crimes of the past exactly a year ago in November 2021 and general director knows that because he said that before in a city near Berlin where there was a concentration camp where by the way Largo Caballero was interned for two years from 1943 to 1945 well in the city near Berlin there was a court a case against somebody who was a hundred years old because of his cooperation in the killing of a hundred people in that concentration camp that case was heard one year ago and we're talking about facts that took place in 1945 during the Nazi regime so I think we should remain confident and hopeful and trusting of our judiciary and our democracy hoping that the democratic memory law establishes will be a freely interesting presentation I want to sound call the speakers and I believe with this we can close the session