 Oh, that horrible things that happen. No, you're really missing the point. That's a great opportunity for is like, oh, I'm out. No, it's a horrible thing. You know, some things are just flat out bad. Welcome to the Art of Charm podcast and welcome to the show. I've been hearing your voice for such a long time. It's finally great to meet you. Daniela Benalla. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Obviously, we're going to dig into your podcast and storytelling this month being storytelling. Really, history is the ultimate storytelling. Right. That's exactly what it is. And we were laughing before the show. A lot of us, when we encounter history, it's in a boring classroom setting. And the narratives that get shared typically involve memorizing lots of dates, but there's a lot more richness to history. And that's really why Johnny and I enjoy your show and digging more into the actual stories behind history. And what grew your fascination with history? I think to me, I grew up as an only kid before internet. So you have a lot of ways to get bored, right? So to me, being in my brain, making up stories was what I started doing, I don't know, I was three, four, five. It's just like, you know, there's only so much time that your parents can spend playing with you. So to me, it was like, okay, time to turn on imagination. And so history was awesome because it would give me material to work with. I would have something gathered and what I see outside the window every day in a modern society where I lived. I had access to all these other ways in which people have lived, dressed, look like, did all these other stuff. And I was like, this is awesome. It gives me so much more material to play with. So really was, for me, history was about storytelling from day one. And that was Milan, Italy? Yeah. You know, for all of us, when we go to Europe, we're exposed to so much history. It's quite overwhelming. And I was telling AJ today that your show and some others like yours had given me the opportunity to learn about stories in certain cities because when you're exposed to a museum or you go to a city, you're exposed to thousands of years of history but you have no context. And it's all hitting you in the face at one time. But if you can narrow down and follow one narrative through, you can learn so much about that city. And then it's connections to other eras and other times. Totally. You know, the funny thing, though, is that even though Italy's obsolete, there's everywhere you turn, there's something that's 2000 years old or something. I really didn't care about Italian history growing up. Probably because I was a knobby little shit. So I'm like, oh, because it's all around me everywhere. Who cares? I'm interested about stuff happening across the globe, not this time. Now I dig it. Now I can appreciate it because when it is not, I don't take it for granted the same way. So now when I go back, I'm like, man, this is amazing. But when I was growing up around it, I was like, yeah, don't care about this part. Give me the other stuff. Give me anything but European history. And was there a story or a period of history that really hooked your imagination at the start? You know, one thing that I, I think there's something fascinating in pretty much any time period. But the things that I tend to gravitate the most toward tend to be tribal stories. People living as small tribes, whether you are talking about prehistory kind of stuff or whether you are talking about 150, 200 years ago, American Indians on the Great Plains. That kind of tribal life where your whole society is made up of like at most a few hundred, maybe a thousand, 2000 people. So it's all a face-to-face community. You know everybody. Everybody's part of it. And you are, there's no state above it. They're just you, your tribe, the land, other tribes you have to interact with. There's something about it probably because that's the way as human beings we have lived for the longest period we've been around. They fascinate me. They kind of speak to me on a level that's like, this is who we are at the core. This is how what made our DNA for 99% of the time we've been around, you know? So I find that really intriguing. Of course that's the hardest one because there's usually very, there's pretty much nothing written. So in terms of sources to reconstruct is not the easiest thing. One of the things I enjoy about the show is when you run into those places you give as much context and facts as you can and then you give a few different narratives to allow your audience to choose from. From the sources that you've read. Which is great because I think we all understand the media that we're living in today is we've caught it being so slanted so many times that it's difficult to trust. And I certainly would wish the media would play that role as well. Like listen, here's what we know and this is up to you but it's force-fed. And when you're hearing such history presented that way it's quite refreshing almost as if you have a bit of a hand in how you're perceiving it and what it means to you as well. Yeah, because ultimately anything has a bias. I mean, there are two levels of bias. There's the dishonest bias which is like I want to kind of shove my point of view down your throat so I'm gonna tweak all the evidence to make you believe what I believe. That's messed up, we get it, that's dishonest. But there's another level that's completely unavoidable. You know, whereas the first one is avoidable the second one isn't. Which is just by virtue of who you are like the storyteller or the journalist the person framing the story. There are gonna be topics they are more into than others. So you're gonna shine the spotlight on those topics more than others. Even if you're trying to be as objective as humanly possible, you can't. You know, you can be as objective as you possibly can. That doesn't really mean you are truly objective. And so it's good to be honest about it. It's like, look, this is the stuff I'm into. This is what I find. This is why I come to this conclusion. You do what you want with it. You see the path, you can either follow that or you can take those elements and take it in another direction. And obviously in your research when we're talking about tribes and communities where spoken history is really what we're talking about here there's not even, I would argue, the historians that we have today who have been steeped in the research but those are just stories that the community shares about events that are happening to them. How do you tease out the disinformation and the spin that's going on in these narratives? It's hard. It's really hard because I mean, it's like even in something that happened a hundred yards from here, there was gonna be 10 witnesses or gonna tell you 10 different stories and they are all right there and it's happening right here right now. Let alone when you add time for stories to change, the person who wasn't really there by heard it from his cousin, second remove who told him that maybe. So, you know, the room for mistakes is huge. And I think that's understood with all history that there's the legend and there's the history. The legends we know, we usually know a few of variation of it. The actual history we can tease out and make educated guesses about. It's about as good as it gets. And in your fact-finding missions to build out these narratives on the podcast, obviously there's a lot of time spent and we understand that, as Johnny was laughing about earlier, to the victors go the spoils, right? And we've even seen now some of our historical figures that we grew up looking up to, stories have come out about their checkered past and maybe the history that we were taught in schools isn't truly the way it happened. How do you tackle those issues when you encounter them and building up the narrative? Well, and that's what I always found weird because what you're referring to is often called or by nationalism. I mean, every country, everyone want to make their founding father, their whatever the good guys, right? The whole story is we are the good guys and by default that means the other guys are the bad guys but there's this, and to me, I don't get it because it's like, why? Nobody's gonna accuse you today of being responsible for what somebody has done five generations ago. So you can be honest about it. If it looks like the record is kind of shady, how about we call it for what it is and be... So that mechanism of like, I have to defend somebody who had lived generations ago against the evidence makes no sense to me. To me, it's like, I'm all for nuance. I'm not saying you need to just point the finger from where you sit today, saying what they should have done 200 years ago and they are all terrible people. But at the same time, also call it for what it is. There are certain lines that you don't cross and when somebody does cross them, I don't care the time period or when, there are not too many ways to spin around in slaving babies. That's bad in all times, in all situations. It's like, that's it. So I always find that, and also that topic, you shouldn't judge the past by today's standards. It's always funny because it tends to be brought up when somebody's judging the people you like. Now, when people are judging the people you don't... Then it's totally fine when they are judging the people you don't like. Right, the enemies are fine, the heroes, let's not question. But suddenly it's like, no way, it was a different time. You should understand, and I did actually, there was a series that I did with Daryl Cooper from Arthur Made Podcast, where we kind of covered this one story from the 1860s, which was this massacre of the Cheyenne at San Cric, and then Daryl cover, Milai massacre in Vietnam. And it was funny, because I remember on my public page on Facebook, we were talking about historical massacres and things like that. And as long as we were talking about Nazis or communists, they were like, can you believe those terrible, horrible people? And then suddenly Milai is like, well, you have to understand, they were under a lot of pressure and it's easy to... I'm like, where was all this human understanding when he was the other guys? It's like, the same rule should apply. Yeah, and unfortunately, when we look back at all of our histories, there's going to be some light moments and there's going to be some dark moments, especially when war is involved. And I think this is what makes, with all these new formats with the technology we have to be able to tell these stories over 11 hours, do you really get an opportunity, at least for you and Daryl and Dan, to humanize some of these characters to such a level that for the first time of hearing this, maybe the story you've heard in history class and all through your life, but the new context that you have where you are now looking at this and this character as, he's just like me, but he was in this situation. And now you're completely sucked in because dates are just that, they're logistical, but when you put it in context of a story, now your emotions are engaged. And the more you can humanize these characters, the more you're engaged and emotions are flying. And when I'm trying to turn people on to some of this stuff, and they're like, how long is this? Oh, this podcast is only 11 hours, don't worry about it. They're like, what? I don't know. And however, we were just talking about Daryl Cooper, it's like the minute that is laid out, you're instantly hooked. You want to go through the whole experience. No, and that's the same thing. I remember when I first was introduced to Dan Carlin's work, I listened to, there was this series that he did on the full of the Roma Republic. And so of course, growing up in Italy, I've heard that story about 72 million times. So I listen and I'm like, okay, it's cool. I dig it. I'm not yet 100% sold to the first episode, but I'm like, it's good enough. I'll check more, right? And then by the end of episode two, I'm there at the edge of my seat going like, what happens next? And then I catch myself because I'm like, I know exactly what happens next. I know all the characters. But that's as good as a storyteller as he is that suddenly he slowly, because it's not like he's over the top from one second one, he's like, draw you in. It's a slow process of drawing you in and once you're in, you're in for real. He does a phenomenal job with it. And when did you realize that podcast was a medium that you wanted to participate in and start sharing these stories? Well, I had a really weird intro to podcasting because I think my first podcasting experience was in 2011 and he was in the deepest end of the pool. You can possibly end up because I think he was the very first I ended up in was Joe Rogan podcast. And I didn't know what podcasting was, right? And back then and still today, Rogan's podcast with you more. Absolutely. I mean, today even more so than back then. And so I remember walking in the studio and there was a Brian Redman and I'm like, Joe hasn't come in yet. And Brian was there and I'm like, podcasting? Kind of like, what are we doing here? It's like radio, but you can cast. And I was like, okay, good. I got it. We're good with that. And so it's like, suddenly after being on Joe's show, I realized just how many people were listening. And I'm like, damn, that's a whole medium that I was ignoring that I didn't know about. And now I'm realizing what a big impact it has on so many people. So then I started becoming kind of a guest on a bunch of podcasts. And then lots of people were like, hey, you should start your own thing. And so I guess, sure, you know. And initially I started more Joe's type of show, more guests and chats and interviews. But then that's when I started putting two and two together and I'm like, okay, I teach history for a living. I am podcasting. My probably my favorite podcast is Dan's hardcore history. Doesn't take a genius. Maybe I should do the same, different from Dan but with my own spin, but get into it. And there was plenty of room with each of one of his episodes taking 10 months. Right, I suddenly be having these two episodes a year, right? And so I was like, but even that was funny because from the moment I decided to start it to when I actually released the first episode, probably year and a half one by, because what I was thinking is I don't wanna do, you know, I do all the research and then I released one or two episodes and then, okay, I see you guys in eight months. You know, I was like, I wanna have enough lined up that I can then buy myself some time to do the research for episode nine or something, right? But I've, I guess I'd steal, despite knowing how history work, I kind of underestimated the amount of work that goes into it, which is insane. It's like every time I get through a series, I'm like, never again, this is painful. Because you need to become an instant expert on something and you don't become an instant expert. So you need to go to at least like 10, 400 page book and read the same story at zillion times before you start seeing it from all these different angles and then you really know your story. Obviously, you saw this as an extension of teaching, just to reach more people. And we certainly know that you put a lot of work into building out these stories. How much comparatively goes from the work of the story itself, but also character development so that the audience can connect? Yeah, all in all, I'd say an average hour and a half to hour episode takes probably about somewhere between a hundred and 200 hours of work behind it. So it's a lot because first you need to read all the books and you take all the notes on the books. Then you come up with sort of the bare bones of the story. And as you read more books, you add elements to this bare bone outline of the whole thing. Once you have the whole outline, okay, now you have a lot of information, but it's tedious as hell, so you need to now spice it up. So you need to, you know, connection, things that as you read come to mind, references to pop culture, joke that comes in or characters, how you want to flesh them out, why should anybody care? Which is ultimately the key question on any storytelling, right? It's like when you're telling a story, I see it a lot in school when people teach. People walk in with the assumption that somehow people would have attention. I'm like, nobody will you check, you know? It's like, nobody, it's your job to hook people in. To hook people in who shouldn't, you shouldn't assume that they care even a tiny bit about the topic. Okay, it's your job to make the story interesting enough and ultimately human enough, you know, something that anybody who has a heartbeat can relate to, that they are gonna have some angle by which they are intrigued because you ultimately are talking about human emotions and things that, you know, the same way as if you put on a Hollywood production, it's designed to appeal to a ton of people through just basic human stuff that most humans can relate to. Same thing goes if you teach a class, same thing goes into a podcast, same thing goes into anything really. And talk about that hook for us when you're developing out and maybe you can give us an example of a recent episode for you, how you come upon the hook and how you set up the story so that the audience is engaged. Sure, so for example, earlier we were talking about kind of complex historical figures and relating to and connected to what you're asking about the hook. Like at one point I did this series on Theodore Roosevelt and I knew a few things about Roosevelt before and I have to go like, oh, he's a crazy bastard. It sounds like a full story, but you know, not that deep. And so I started reading and reading and reading. And on some level it was interesting because there's the aspect that turns you off. You know, when you read it today, he clearly grew up at a time that was insanely racist. So some of that definitely comes up, particularly in his earlier writings. He got better over time, which is something that helps in liking, right? But he starts from a place that was, that was everything he breathed around him was the culture was super racist. He never saw a war he didn't like. You know, he was a hardcore warmonger. So it's not my ideal guy in terms of foreign policy or he had those issues that you look at it and you're like, that's a little problematic. But at the same time, there's so much to him as a human being there. You can, you know, there's a lot of history that just, you know, like when he's very young and he's severely asthmatic at a time when people hadn't figured out the proper treatment for asthma. So their idea actually, when you were a kid and you had asthma, they would give you cigars to smoke because the idea was that it would strengthen your lungs. And so, you know, it's a miracle that anybody survived. But, you know, he was facing that kind of stuff, always being sort of this weak, Nordish guy in his books because he was always having, struggling with a body that wasn't serving him well. And somehow through luck, through working out, through seeing things he built for himself, much stronger, healthier body, so much that he kind of builds a cult about this idea of physical effort. That's one of his big things. When he's really young, like he's still in his early 20s, he got married and his wife would just give birth to a baby daughter, dies the same day as his mom dies. So he comes home and is like, that mother, that wife, here is a two-day-old kid to take care of. So, you know, there are these things that you could not care less about US foreign policy or politics or anything. You cannot, but stories like these are something that anybody can at least, if not really through personal experience, at least imagine what I mean and be like, damn, if I was in that situation, how would I react to something that strikes such powerful emotional chords? And so that, right there is your hook, right? That right there is like, okay, now I'm invested in this person. I wanna see how they handle it, you know? So understanding the struggle that they've gone through, obviously we have these historical figures that we all revere and look up to because of the stories that we've heard over and over again, but there's always that turmoil going on, no matter who the hero is. And really hooking into that is how you get that audience engaged. Yeah, one thing I noticed is that most of the characters I'm interested in, and I tend to, I like all of the stories I cover, but I tend to dig extra, the biographical ones, where there's a clear lead that you follow through their journey. But most of them are mildly mentally deranged. They all have serious issues. I find them lovable for the most part, but they are not the most always well adjusted human being ever. You know, so it's, I mean, like I think the first biography I did was Crazy Horse. And it's basically the Native American version of The Punisher, right? It's exactly The Punisher story, just with, and you know, you just see, you picture what it must have been like to go through all those experiences, mountains of heartbreak and tragedy. And you're like, okay, I can see how the guy would have some issues. You know, you still like him because there was a very sympathetic side to him. But at the same time, yeah, there's some real stuff going on there. There's a lot of evil woven into that story. You know, it's something else that you speak about and bringing up The Punisher. You know, it amazes me how we continually hear how Hollywood has run out of ideas. And for the most part, you look at what they're putting out and it's easy to say that when through these podcasts, we're hearing incredible story after incredible story. And it's like, well, if they just did a little work or unless they've gotten conditioned to, well, it's not really about the story. It's what we need to, we know what's going to be coming in. Yeah, I mean, Hollywood is funny because I've been in a lot, a lot, a lot of meetings about developing TV series and movies and things. And the number one you think you breathe in the room at all times is fear because the thing is you have to invest millions of dollars. This is not an investment that you can afford to screw up. So there's always that, okay, this checks out, this checks out, this checks out, but what could possibly go wrong that's not gonna get us our investment back? And of course, when you approach it that way, nothing is gonna pass the test because unless like Marvel movies, it has been done already 5,200 times, nothing has been proven that for sure it's gonna work no matter what. And inevitably at some point, they have to take a chance, but you kind of see this process where they are like, no, no, no, okay, pick this one. You know, it seems so random because sometimes you're like, really, you stress so much about this thing which looks like a pretty good commercial success. And then you approve this, it's like, so a lot of the times the mechanism behind it, I think that they are under so much pressure because the money involved is so insane and outside what we can normally think of that it's inevitably super conservative. And I don't mean political conservative, I mean conservative in terms of choices is you don't want to do something new because you could fail. And you don't wanna do something that unless it's Marvel, everybody has done 10,000 times because otherwise you are 10,001 and you wanna be just in the middle. You know, where it has been done enough that we know it works, but we also know that the audience will still go watch it, you know, and that's kind of how the game works. And when you put your magnifying glass to these moments in history and you're building out that outline like you discussed, how do you pick that timeframe and come up with the introduction to the story, the hook, what you're gonna focus on and then also sort of the payoff at the end because it's really your job as the storyteller to pick, okay, day one, day zero, and okay, this is the end of my story. And some of these struggles, I mean, they're still going on to talk about tribal issues. Sure, yeah, some of those things are, yeah, that's where, to me in some way that becomes the most interesting part because yeah, you're framing the narrative. You have all the facts, but you're giving it an arc and the arc is not obvious and the arc is something you have to figure out. So what is that would interest somebody right away in the first five, 10 minutes and now you wanna close it. Like right now I'm working on this super long series that ends with something really dark where there's this, I don't know why today's just, it comes up this way, it's like massacre number 3073. It's like, I swear it's not all like that, but it ends with the wounded knee massacre. And at one point I caught myself, I'm like, do I really want to send my listeners off after they've listened for hours and hours and hour where the last image they have is like some baby dying in the snow after breastfeeding and choking on the blood of his dead mother. Is that really where I wanna go with this? It's like, come on, man. It's like, you don't wanna put a ribbon around it and make it sound like, oh, but it's all a happy, it's not, it's a terrible story. But okay, how do I frame it? Because no, I'm not gonna do that to people. That's just a bad way to end stuff. And so then I shifted the focus to, okay, that does happen in 1890 and it's horrible and it's terrible. But in that same story, there's also a story of survival against overwhelming odds. There's still a story of Lakota culture that I've been looking at leading up to wounded knee getting squashed in just about every way. Legally in terms of religious persecution, in terms of the massacre, it's like it looks still somewhat thriving today, still finding a way. And so you're not negating everything you have built up until that point, but you give it a spin that doesn't go into, it's not gonna have your listener going to shoot themselves after they are done. It's like, that was a great podcast. Now I'm just gonna go kill myself. That's not the goal. So obviously there's the hook that moment that all of us as listeners humanizes whoever the main protagonist or character in the story is and then from there, you gotta zoom out and give context, right? Why does this matter? And what's going on historically to put it in its place? And then you have conflict. And a lot of what we'll go into in a bit involves a lot of dark conflict, massacres. But you are looking for something at the end to conclude in a way that the audience feels they've got some value out of it and they can take a positive spin on it. Yeah, cause ultimately, you wanna be real and a lot of history is nasty and it feels like Game of Thrones, right? It feels heavy as hell, nasty things happen. But if that's your conclusion, then it's like, what's the point? Why didn't get up in the morning if that's how you're gonna feel about everything, right? So it's like, you look at all the darkness but you also want to find whatever angle that also allow you to either deal with it or thrive despite all of it. And I mean, at some point, I remember talking with Don Carlin where we're like, why most of the stories we tell are just terrible? Why is it always warfare and bloodshed and this and that? And the point he was making is because those are some of the most extreme stories in human experience and the more powerful the emotions that you put on the table are, the more invested you get into how the characters navigate those situations. And I get that, but there was a moment there where I was like, okay, but I also wanna do something different. And so at one point, one of the podcast that I was, one of the series I was super happy with, I did these two episodes on the life of this one, Zen Monk from the 1400s, EQ Surgeon was my old time idol because his main priorities were Zen, sure, that's great, but mainly also drinking and women. And it's all live, while there's plenty of obstacle and conflict and thing, the guy manages to be happy in spite of the context he's in. And you know, the context like most historical context is gonna be a tough one, you know? But you don't feel it in his attitude, you don't feel it in his writing, you don't feel it in the way he relates to sing. And so I found it refreshing. The guy was like, most of his stuff is about sex, happiness in the moment, and just the sense of a guy who has a tremendous zest for life. And I was like, oh man, that's refreshing once in a while to put the accent on that, not only on some terrible conflicts taking place. Epic doesn't have to always mean bloodshed and goer. Epic can also be a happy story. You could say it's a character study. Yeah. Of a very complex character. And of course it's going to relate to a lot of different people in a lot of different ways. You know, one of the things that you mentioned of being extremes of the human experience, I can personally relate to some of how I now look at working out or how I go about my day directly as a response to some of the stories that I heard of this extreme of human experience. It's like, well, if that person could live through that, why am I freaking out right now? And in fact, I need to get it together. And to be exposed to that and care through the storytelling, do you think that is a bit of the professor coming through where it's like, well, let's make sure everyone learns something at the end that is so it's just not a slasher flick? Yeah, because ultimately it's like, why are we doing it otherwise? To me, anything storytelling included needs to be about elevating the quality of life. If it doesn't do that, then we're wasting our time. Maybe we're wasting our time in a fun way, in a ha-ha and entertaining way, sure, not everything needs to be about elevation of quality of life, but kind of. To me, that's the point is we all wanna live happier, more fulfilling lives. So storytelling, to me, is awesome because of what you're saying. It provides archetypes. It provides kind of role models that they don't have to be perfect, even because if they are perfect, you can't relate. It's like, that's great for you, but it has nothing to do with where I'm at today. They need to be somebody that you can relate to who managed to do something amazing in spite of all the demons pulling you down. You know, and so that to me, yeah, I have the same exact thing that you're describing, that moment where you're like, oh man, life is hard, this, that, and the other, and there's a story there that reminds you, yes, but there's a way out. Yes, but there's a way to rise above it. And I love hero stories. That's, to me, that's what you need in any story, powerful characters that make you feel good about being alive ultimately. Yeah, I think everyone's story is a story of survival. And some of these stories that you choose are the ultimate situations of life and death for these people. And of course, the hero is gonna struggle with decisions, is gonna struggle with negative outcomes, and then hopefully rise above it so there is a life lesson that can be passed on when you're telling these stories that are involving mass violence, mass occurs, death, a lot of darkness. How do you draw the line from when enough is enough for the audience of like, how deep do I wanna go into the darkness? And how do you find your way out of that so that the audience again can move on from just all the death and destruction? Yeah, I'm, you know, one of the things that I'm gonna tie back to what you're asking regarding storytelling, but like one of the things that, for example, I don't like about the more positive thinking approach to things is that they tend to oversimplify answers. It's like, oh, that horrible things that happened. No, you're really missing the point. That's a great opportunity for, it's like, oh, time out. No, it's a horrible thing. You know, some things are just flat out bad. There's no spinning them into nobody, really it's good. No, it's bad. And let's be real about it. Okay, let's deal with what it is. Once we have looked at it long enough and we are knowledge that it's crap, then let's figure out, okay, it is crap, but what do you wanna do about it? You know, how do you wanna, because sitting around and calling it for what it is is not gonna help anybody. So how do you take terrible cards that you have in your hands and be able to play them in a way that's empowering? I'm a big fan of that process. You know, acknowledge the darkness, look at it, see it in all its ugliness, and then try to move forward. I tend to find that in many cases, the more sort of motivational self-help tend to skip that step. They are, yeah, I was kind of dark, but you know, it's really amazing. It's like, no, no, no, too soon. You know, it's like, because to me it feels fake. You know, to me it feels like you're not being real. You're not being honest about what that feels like. And ultimately you're also making it sound too easy. Like for somebody who's coating it, it doesn't feel good to be told, no, no, really, it's a great, it's like, come on, man. Have first empathize with what it means to be in that situation, then you can move forward. But if you don't go through the process, you're never gonna move forward in a way that's real. You may in a way that's like fake self-talk, but not in a way that goes deep. So in answer to your question, I think it's very important to just be, to dive deep, to look at the darkness for all its ugliness, and then help people kind of come out from the other end. So they are not, it's like darkness, darkness, darkness. Okay guys, see you next time. It's like, no, that's terrible. You know, you don't wanna do that. But to show a path out. What's certainly a large theme of philosophy of losing yourself or reaching the darkness in order to find your way back and truly know who you are. Because how can you know who you are if you haven't put yourself in that position or have been there? And there's many different ways of going about that. But until you come back there, and I think Joe just posted something about that as well. And we see it in certainly in philosophy. Every tradition has that story. And you guys have certainly shown it in your stories that you tell. Yeah, it's important because that's life, right? Life is conflict, life is loss, life is failure. But it's not all that life is or it doesn't have to be. And so it's like showing that path through the hard stuff, through the failure, through all of it. And again, not rushing it. Because when you rush it to me, you're missing the real ability to come out strong from the other side. You know, you don't just go, I'm weak. I'm gonna live two weeks for two days and now I'm strong. You know, take your time. You need to process that. You need to really feel it. So that when you come out, it's real. There's a real strength behind it. It's not something that can be the next time the reality really shows its ugly face. You realize that you weren't quite as though everything is for the best kind of thing. And so that's kind of how I approach it in all the stories. I have zero problem with dealing with really hard stuff, but I also wanna show an arc. Because otherwise again, I can tell the pressing stories all day long, but why are we doing it to ourselves? That's not the point. And we talked about this in our Toolbox episode about essentially there are the details and the facts and the logical part, but really when we're telling a story, we're painting with the emotions and getting people to resonate with the emotions. Cause that's what's universal, right? I may not have been a warrior. I may not have grown up in the 1800s, but the emotions and the conflict that those characters are feeling, well, yeah, I can relate to that. Are there tools or techniques that you've developed over time to paint those emotions more vividly? How do you go about sharing that side of the story? I think not everybody's wired the same way. So some people have easier threshold to cross into. Like I remember as a kid, if I would watch a movie, he felt like I lived it. He felt like I was the character, right? And so then I would see other people watch the same movie with me and two minutes later are cracking jokes. I'm like, no, how are you not stealing that space? It's like, that was a powerful takes a while to digest it all. And so that's when I realized, okay, maybe I have a different mindset where my immersion into the story goes to a kind of another level, which is not good or bad. It's just more intense for whatever good or bad that it may be. And so to me it's like, okay, how can I distill some of that for somebody who may not do the exact same process I go through? How can I create the hook faster? And that's essentially, and so it goes back to the same emotions. If you happen to feel them more intensely, well, it's even easier to then be able to communicate them to somebody because they feel the same thing. They may have just not dwell on it as much. Right, so in your preparation, you're emoting and sitting in there and methodically with the character to build out that structure before sharing it. Definitely. And of course, one of the things that we enjoy about your podcast as well is you do add humor. And there is moments where you would think in these dark stories, humor might not work. How do you go about adding humor to these stories? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, part of the way I grew up was you find something funny in the weirdest situation, right? It's just part of the gig. So in some ways, the uglier it gets, the more there's that powerful weapon that is gallows humor that come in that is like, I mean, otherwise, again, the alternative is you shoot yourself because it's so nasty and ugly or you find a way to laugh about it and keep going despite it all. And so to be finding something funny in situations that are clearly not funny and they are ugly and heavy is super important. And I deeply admire people who are able to do that. And again, it can be force. It can't be, hey, I know that being, finding humor and tragedy is great, so let's, you know, because you feel it when it's first, you need to come from who you are really and just your attitude of like, yeah, here we are. So let's find a way to go through this. With the deal with some of your sponsors and luminary, I remember when you had guaranteed a certain amount of shows and certainly knowing that the workload that you have with everything else that you're doing and teaching and martial arts and the other podcasts and what it takes to put together the research for one of these stories, I'm sure at times you feel run down or just beat up or just uninspired because you've put so much out there. How do you deal with those times? I mean, there's, yes, sure. And there's definitely the clock ticking. You're like, okay, this is great, but you need to get another story next month. So hurry up a little. But at the same time, I think there's a level where, you know, if I probably have some documents where I listed just kind of brainstorming some of the stories I like to cover. And you know, there's enough material for the next 72 years. So I'm just like, you know, there's an element that while, yeah, it's a lot and man, I'm tired and this and that, there's also a sense that like, oh, I can't wait to get to tell this story. So it kind of motivates you to, eh, let's pick up the book and start reading and go through it because it's a good story and I can't wait to dive into it. Of course, halfway through, you're like, ah, Jesus, this again, you know, but it's, but no, I enjoy it, you know, ultimately I enjoy telling these stories. I enjoy studying them, I enjoy telling them. So while the workload is definitely intense, it's a topic that I'm super passionate about. So it helps. And we all, I was just gonna say, so obviously with all the prep that goes on and you delving deeply into the story, is there something you look for when you now feel ready to hit record and share it with an audience? How do you work through that? And I know a lot of our audience thinks about stories and it's like, well, that's not ready. Or I don't have this component or I don't have the humor. How do you know when it's ready to share? To me, there has to be, like the number one requirement is epic. You know, if I have even one moment in a story where I'm like, man, that's such a powerful moment. That's such a great line. That's, then I'm like, okay, okay, we can work with this. We can work because if, I'm sure if I find that one, there are gonna be other moments in the story that are powerful. And so if I get that moment where I like, I can't wait to, like my daughter always, she's 10 years old now. She's always asking me to tell her stories, right? And so it's like, if I get to tell a five minute story to my daughter, that's short enough to keep attention span going, but powerful enough to get her super interest. Then I have something that I can develop in something larger, right? So is there are these little snippets that you know, you test them out. Can you keep the attention of a child and keep them at the edge of their seat? Okay, you can, boom, you got a story. Then you can develop it and that to it, you know. And obviously, how has this parlayed into your sharing your own stories and your own history of being a student in history and now having this podcast where you share these historical stories, how is that translated into your personal storytelling? I mean, to me it's like, that's why in fact, when you guys told me, oh, we're gonna chat about storytelling. I'm like, perfect because that to me, everything is storytelling, right? That's like in everything I do, whether I'm teaching, whether I'm writing, whether I'm doing the podcast, whether I'm hanging out with my daughter, storytelling is in everything and it's what makes, give meaning to life in a lot of way, gives you strength in moments when you don't have it. So like all we got into some degree are stories and they are what makes the difference between perceiving external reality, a situation and perceiving external reality and you are excited and can't wait to tackle it. So I just, and I play the same process with myself. There are all the times in life when you're dealing with heavy stuff, when you're struggling, when you feel run down and having in the back of your mind some stories that you focus on to give you that energy for that extra step, give you that energy for okay, but I'm not totally crushed by this yet. It goes a long way, because it's very much kind of Joseph Campbell, the hero's Jordy kind of thing, you know? We talked about that in the toolbox and we all can resonate with those stories when we see them elsewhere. It's now seeing our own life through that same pattern of being able to share it. And that's where, you know, like right now I would love to be able to write another book but again, because of the podcast it's really hard to find time for anything. But like the last book I did was something that was weird because it was sort of autobiographical in a lot of ways, actually, pretty much always which always felt weird to me because I'm like, that's some vain crap. He's like, what are you gonna, ooh, let me tell you about how my life is so, it's like, screw you, you know? That, it felt really wrong in a lot of ways but at the same time I realized that there were some parts of that story. And I mean, it's not that I was born in and you know, it's not that kind of, it's a thematic autobiographical thing but like on certain themes, I'm like, I can talk about this in a philosophical, more principle-driven kind of way and sure it can be interesting but when you make it personal, when you make it, okay, this is me in that situation. Not as this is how you should act in an abstract way and it's always way too easy and way too clean. It's like, no, that's the reality. This is what I know, this is how I feel. This is how I tackle. That I realized anytime I tell stories in that way, people respond 10 times more and not just respond like, oh, I want a bigger audience, responding it helps them more because they can relate more. And so I was like, okay, that's a different way to go about storytelling because suddenly I'm the main character in a tale. I'm like, oh, okay, that's different. And of course you can't really, you know, you tell it but it's harder whereas when you're talking about somebody else it's very easy to see how somebody will perceive that story. When you're talking about yourself, you don't because you know yourself too well. You're like, well, you think that was awesome? Okay, I'm glad you feel that way but I was kind of winging it and I'm glad it worked out but so it's that in itself is a bit of, but in some way I think there's a process where almost everything you touch has a little bit of autobiographical element because whatever story you tell is ultimately told through your process framed by your experiences, the lenses you have developed to look a reality through your whole life story. So if you're talking about some Italian painter from the 1500s or some Lakota leader or some ultimately still filter through you and your experiences. So a little bit of that is going to color any story you tell. I think that's so wonderful when you get to hear a story that meant so much to you as a child, hear it as an adult with a completely different lens and that story still carrying the same power but it means something completely different to you. Big time, big time. And that's the evolution, right? It's like when you are looking at something from this angle and suddenly you realize that there are many, many other angles to tackle the same topic from. And of course these stories that we share they become memories for others and that is our own history being shared and passed on. So the more compelling and engaging the story the more the other person can relate to the story. Well that is a story that will be shared more and ultimately make you stand out and become more memorable. That's the game, right? That's how you're playing the whole, yep. Now we touched on this a little bit earlier but we know that because of exactly that we're perceiving the world in a certain light and no matter if we're sharing a story about ourselves or we're sharing a story about a historical figure our perception and perspective is gonna be woven into that story. How do you tell or what is your barometer to judge if a story has been spun too much and maybe fake history? And they've colored the lens of this to be something that's just unrealistic and how do you get to what you believe is the truth in these stories? I mean, so of course you need to have enough reliable sources and that's not always easy because there are a bunch of stories for which there are no reliable sources and then you're like, okay, this is the legend, this is based on what we know about the context to what we can assume, make educated guesses but ultimately it's legend. Then there are the ones that are part legend, part, there's something that all the sources agree on, okay, we're good there but then there's plenty of room for things that's reported in this one guy 50 years later, maybe not, and you tell it that way, you say, hey, this is how the narrative goes flowing but part of that flow may not be real. We know this and we know this and then somebody argue that this is what happened in between. Maybe it did happen, this is what we have as evidence that it may have happened but make your own mind about it and so you can either enjoy it as purely storytelling or you can assume that it's actual history and it's anybody's work to figure it out. Now I know we've talked a lot about the history podcast, you have another podcast that Johnny finds really enjoyable and we had just some simple questions here to end around exactly that because it really aligns with a lot of the concepts that we talk about here on the show about value and being giving to others. Well, one more question before we get there, I was kind of curious about, obviously you brought the being a professor angle to the podcast and telling these stories. Now after podcasting for so long, how has that changed the way you present information in the classroom? Yeah, I don't think it has because I never saw myself as, I always saw my teaching in academia as I'm a ninja who's somehow got in and just don't tell anybody because I'm not really like that kind of thing. To me it's like I approach teaching as storytelling with depth, with, you know, you do the historical process, you wanna be accurate, all the good stuff but ultimately I approach it in that fashion. And so I was never like the professor who gets into storytelling is I do storytelling and I happen to do it in a classroom some of the time. So in that regard, there's no change because it's the same way as in the classroom you don't have the same time to go in depth in certain topic but you do the same thing quicker. You know, you kind of, you have to graze the surface a little more and you can spend five hours on the story of one person but you know, you're doing the same things just on a bit of a higher up the surface but the dynamics don't change. So my teaching has been kind of the same errors. And I would assume the goal for your students is to go just deep enough where they'll do the other four hours that you didn't have the time for. Right, and you know, you throw it out there and if you dig it, there's a lot more. And if you don't, goodbye. You know, that's, yeah, that's kind of the idea is I'll try to make it fun. I'll try to entertain you. I'll try to make sure that you learn something. And then if you want to go deeper, great. So one of my other joys that all this technology has brought certainly history has been one of them and my other is philosophy and knowing that you are very, not only in the Western tradition but also the Eastern tradition in the other podcast being drunken Taoism, right? I always sometimes that word throws me off. AOC, the art of charm. We, one of the things that we have a philosophical core and that philosophical core is what is the value that you're bringing to your interactions and to the world around you which pretty much flows really nicely with Taoism. And so when it comes to storytelling and it comes to living in that tradition of bringing value to others around you in a day, anything that you could speak of and through that point. Yeah, I think one of the things that interested me about Taoism is that unlike most any philosophy or religion that you need to believe certain things to be that thing, you can be 100% Taoist in worldview without ever having read a damn thing about Taoism or knowing what Taoism is. Because to me, what interests me about Taoism is that it very much speaks the language of life. It's kind of like somebody who sits at the window describing the way the universe works. It's not even to argue with. It's not something you need to believe or disbelieve. It's like, look out the window and that's exactly how reality works, right? So I find it refreshing because it's, even though it doesn't feel like that, because you know, you read the Dara Ching and depending on the translation it can get really complex and it's not for everybody to get into. Once you break down the basic principles, they are everywhere in anything, you know? It's sort of that if you become a master at anything, you are gonna be applying those principles in your life. And whether you know it or not, they are the exact same thing. So you can derive the same insight from completely different fields to, and really they help you navigate life easier. And what are those principles that you live by? For example, there's, like the first line of the Dara Ching is funny because sometimes it's translated as the Tao that can be explained is not the real thing. It's not the eternal Tao. And it's like, well, that should also be the last line of the book, right? Because then if you can do it, then why are we wasting time? And he's telling you, look, words are great because that's how we communicate as human beings but they are a limited tool. They are verbal symbols. They are trying to describe reality with. They're not the same thing in reality. And so much miscommunication takes place all the time between people. So many arguments are based on symbolic semantics rather than reality. So he's always telling you kind of like, okay, we're gonna be using this, but remember language and the real thing are two different things. So that's something that's always helpful, but on a much deeper level, when you ask about principles, like even something like the Yin-Yang symbol, it's telling you, like whoever designed it way back thousands of years ago was a damn genius because it's so perfect in its simplicity, right? So much of the view of duality that exists in the world is like there's a clear cut line between one side and the other and one is good and the other is evil and they are fighting each other across this rigid line and it's based on conflict. Taoism is telling you everything is made of opposite energies. Male, female, cold and hot, sun and dark, everything is made and there's always a balance between those two things. If you are able to find the right balance in the right situation, boom, everything is gonna be easier. If you don't find the right balance in the right situation, your life is gonna be harder, simple as that. In a ways like a philosophical kind of surfing, everybody gets it that you need to be in balance on the board on top of a wave. The skill is in reading the ocean, reading everything around you so that, because balance doesn't mean you're always in the middle, leader. That's not balance, that's being dogmatic in a different way. Not in a completely black or completely white, but it's, I'm gonna be dogmatic in the middle. It's like that, it would be nice if life was that simple, it's not. You know, one of the key things of Taoism is everything is constantly changing. So your skill, your ability is to learn the right balance in each situation that's constantly changing as well. And in some cases, balance may not look like balance. In some cases, you are tilted 95% one way, but it's exactly what's needed at the moment. Two seconds later, the balance has shifted and so you need to tilt it back real fast. And in that sense is, that's why I find surfing a powerful metaphor for what Taoism is about because it's essentially teaching you how to navigate life. And of course it's not a, hey, here are seven easy steps to become a perfect life surfer. It's like learning how to cook, it's like learning anything that's an art to some degrees. You have principles, you learn those, but ultimately some people are gonna have a genius for it. It's like your grandma was an amazing chef and goes, no, not ready, not ready now. And they make the call in the right moment and that tastes 10 times better than a minute later or a minute earlier. That to me is something that fascinates me about Taoism because it's built on being completely not dogmatic in nature. It's telling you that's how life works, but a lot of it experimentation and a lot of it's contextual. Yeah, that acceptance for what is happening and that flexibility to adjust to what's happening. Flexibility is key, I mean think about, and again to give an example of how you can apply it to everything. Let's say you have kids, right? You think I need to give structure to my kids, they need to have discipline, they need to do this. For some kids that's perfect, that's exactly what they need, but you apply that model which is good with key day to kid B and they are pissed off and they hate you. And your ability is to be able to read the situation and go, that's not what this guy needs. With him we're gonna do something a little different. There still will be some of the discipline but a lot will tone that down a lot because what they need instead is more kind of giving them responsibility, letting them make choices, be a little more free. And it's not that one model is good or bad, is one model is perfect for one kid, one model is perfect for another. If you apply a good model in the wrong situation you're still screwing up. And I think obviously with the study of history, this idea of humility and being humble. Even when we think about our heroes and the legends and the stories that you've investigated, they're all flawed, everyone is flawed. Even the people we look up to and elevate are flawed. So we need to look at our own flaws in the same way and be humble and have some humility. On one hand and at the same time being kind of being kind to yourself. It's like it's great to have high expectations but amen, we understand. Everybody screws up, is up on yourself a little. And even that speaking of Taoism is a temperature, right? Some people are way too quick in making excuses for themselves. Well then let's cut down on the excuses and get your act together a little more. Some people are way too hard on themselves. And so it's like, I appreciate this drive for self perfection but tone it down three notches because you're driving yourself crazy. And so even that is this kind of balancing act that you know. It's not one or the other, it's not an either or. As we get older, we slowly start to put that balancing act for ourselves and still at times it can be difficult. Some of the characters that you've covered, their balancing act certainly looks a lot different than probably any of ours. Diogenes being one of them. And there was a few other characters that you had put together. And I love the comparison that you made of him to Gigi Allen, which I died. And I'd been waiting for somebody to put, I had thought I was the only one that had made that connection. But when you look at those people, and like Bukowski seems to be one of those characters as well who cannot live very conventionally but yet you're getting something and an intelligence and an angle that only they can bring to a situation to give you a better view of it that no one who lives a straight life or a well balanced act can put together. Yeah, sometimes there's power in being off balance. There's something to be, that you can get from that as well. Thank you so much for joining us. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you guys. Obviously, we've mentioned your podcast a bit here but where can our audience find you and all this phenomenal work? So all the, I think the first 47 episodes of History on Fire are all freely available on iTunes and all most of the other things. Most of the new ones are just exclusive to Luminary. But if you haven't checked the podcast before you have a long way to catch up to. So there are many, but all the new ones are on Luminary Premium. So that's the way to go. And other than that, I'm sure, you know, everybody knows how to use Google. It's easy enough once you spell the name correctly to find all the relevant links. Well, thank you for joining us. It was a real pleasure. Thank you so much. But I feel alive with you.