 All right, you're on Okay, you guys ready to go Okay Okay, all right now I can blast everybody Okay Hear me Yes, okay, that was it. That's what I have to do hold up real close. Yeah, all right I will forget halfway through so remind me So I am Denise do this and probably a lot of you know me because I've been around for a few years at red hat And I am the vice president in charge of what's called red hats platform organization Which means that I Own the teams. I own well. Yeah, I am responsible for the teams that run Red Hat Enterprise Linux and also the teams that provide support for the fedora infrastructure Which is actually a great combination so I Figured that that puts me in the best place of anybody to talk about what does red hat want I? Want to point out though right from the start that there is no one voice that says what does red hat want and this presentation is a group effort So a number of us sat down and talked about what is the message that we would very much like to communicate? To a fedora audience And we realized that a lot of you work for red hat already But a lot of you don't and you don't understand the way things work internally to red hat So we figured it would be pretty it would be good to try to explain how red hat works as well as talk about Where red hat thinks the world is going and what we would like to? Experience working with a fedora community Red hat the company is all about providing support for enterprises So you know those traditional things that we always talk about stability performance None of this is foreign to fedora right because Generally the folks who work on fedora also work on enterprise software in their day jobs and Understand what this world values, but these are the features of the qualities That red hat is motivated to make sure end up in red hat enterprise Linux right our main Our main product we live in an interesting world Our customers Insist that it has to be a floor wax and a dessert topping right Yeah, it has to be stable. Oh wait it has to be bleeding We try really hard at red hat to make sure that we're coping with all of this If you work for red hat you've probably seen this slide before because I use it a lot when I talk with people internally Because I think it describes really well What it is that we're the place that we're trying to get to stable enough. Oh But wait, we're moving really fast. Oh, but wait it can't break This is what we try to make sure that rail covers Fedora has a different set of criteria, right Fedora is all about innovation and From a red hat perspective We understand that Innovation is something that we only want to pull into the main product into rel Once it's stable enough But Fedora is where you get to have fun Fedora is where you get to try a bunch of different things Experiment with it and see what looks like the right what turns out to be the right combination so It's fast-moving My god, it's fast-moving right you guys are on a six-month cycle if I could pull that off with rail it would be a miracle Fedora also is about community, right Because one of the things about a company like red hat is we recognize that we are not in this alone We can't do this alone We live in a world where innovation is happening so quickly innovation is happening in the upstreams It's not anything that any one company is ever going to control and Anyone proprietary company that thinks like that is going to be roadkill And we don't want to be roadkill and we're not proprietary so look at that two advantages Community is what we want to work with right Community support is what we want to provide to Fedora And I hope that we're doing it as you know, we do a lot in Fedora. So Fedora for for red hat from the red hat perspective Fedora is a chance to try out a lot of different things See what resonates with people right there are lots and lots of ideas around there are probably 15 different packages for any given use case right Some of them are going to be winners some of them are not winners some of them With a little bit of assistance and maybe some patches sent upstream are going to have a much more chance to be viable What we want to do in Fedora is see how things play out Give people a chance to kick the tires help understand what the technical difficulties are and Help nudge along the ideas that look like they're going to have traction with the people who are eventually gonna Maybe oh god pay for software support Because at the end of the day, right we have to stay in business So Fedora as you guys probably know Becomes the basis for what we put together for red hat enterprise Linux And so what we do with Fedora is we watch Fedora release Fedora release Fedora release And after four five six seven releases right We will bring a release in house and we'll start building it in house And we'll try to understand, you know, what packages need to be there what packages don't need to be there Make sure we understand the dependencies do some hardening, you know work on the security for a little bit more And then we put it out as a major release for red hat enterprise Linux If you think about that, it's a really bottoms up process right There are lots and lots of upstreams it bubbles up you kind of get what you get The upstreams innovated their own pace the kernels off doing what the kernel, you know, their own thing system D's off You know, maybe moderately Listening to what we ask them to do right maybe kind of if we're lucky same with the kernel They do what they do and we try to pull it all together and make it into a cohesive hole that we can then put Dare I say it a marketing story around look, it's a distro Look we meant to do that And and and that's been a lot of the history If you think though back a couple of years to the fedora rings proposal And to some of the work that's happened to support fedora additions Some of that has been red hat the company Working with red hat a bunch of the smart people who work for us to try to think about what are the better ways That you would do if you were going to support a distro so We're trying to be a little more Plansful I hate that word, but I'm going to use it anyway Plansful about the way that we've read hat approach an operating system product So when you think about the way you put a product together, there's bottoms up and there's top down We're never going to be a top-down company, right? We're now the product management at red hat has got to be the toughest job in the world Shabenda will tell you that We are never going to be a company that stands up there and dictates to a bunch of engineers. Hey This is what we're going to do now go do it, right? Yeah, all of our engineers were quit first of all But but the other thing is our engineers are really smart We need to understand from the engineering teams What's going on in the world? What's going on in open source? Because that informs a lot of the decisions and that informs what's going to go into the product But what we're trying to do is to be a little more Thoughtful about the The the guidance that we give to an engineering team Engineers make lots of decisions every day They make those decisions really independently because no one is ever going to micromanage an engineer and Tell them what to do. There aren't enough management cycles in no world for that to happen And we wouldn't want to do that anyway because it's a stupid way to waste engineering intelligence So what we we red hat would like to do with our engineering teams though is give them a general idea Of where we want the product to go and kind of set up Jersey barriers, right? Here's our general direction. There are going to be lots of technical decisions that happen on the way to Destination, but I'd like us all to arrive at agreed upon destination So when you think about the way that red hat the company red hat the rel product line Operates, that's what you need to keep in mind we want to set general direction for engineering and For rel the general direction is always going to be something that starts in fedora because fedora flows into rel Red hat the company so a bunch of you don't work for red hat So I wanted to make sure that I read you our mission statement because I think it's really an interesting statement We want to be the catalyst in communities of customers contributors and partners Creating better technology the open-source way if you work for red hat You probably remember some of the memo list discussion that went into the creation of this mission statement Right. We're a very open company our employees get a vote Right, they get to be part of the discussion. I remember some of this right. No, I'm sure remember some of this We had we tried very carefully to describe Something that didn't say it's just about engineers or It's just about employees it's about being a catalyst and working with all sorts of people in order to advance open source and We want to do that to benefit our customers We want better technology for the world OMG, you know, and we do have to survive as an organization Again, if you work for red hat, you already know this, but if you work for a different kind of company We think red hat is really unusual in that we explicitly include in our code of Conduct and and ethics we explicitly include a statement that says yeah We want you to work in open source and you know what what you do when you work on open source projects Well, we'd really like it If you kept red hats best interests in mind But if you see a conflict between red hat interests and the project interests It's okay to do what's best for the project and you're not going to get in trouble for that Which is a thing. I think that really is Interesting and unusual about red hat. We expect our our people to be ethical And the way we define ethical is you do what's right for your project Employees can put project interests over company interests where necessary It's about me trying to provide guidance about where red hat wants to go But you know sometimes Guidance isn't enough or it's not appropriate. So the reason I talk about all of this is because It helps you understand red hat the company this is not We don't expose a lot of this Clearly, I don't think to fedora audiences and so over the years. There's sometimes been misunderstanding Dare I say flame wars aren't fedora develop list? Yeah, I've seen a lot of those you guys have probably seen a lot of those too, right? there's a certain amount of suspicion of Red hat as oh my god, there's evil red hat people. What are they doing? You know never a tribute Never attribute to malice what could be Explained by a competence Miscommunication are us right sometimes Even internally we are not very well aligned about what our goals are my job as Red Hat management is to try to help red hat the engineering team understand what our goals are and then take those goals and Bring them elsewhere bring them to upstream communities bring them to fedora Bring them to the places where we contribute All over all over the open-source world Another thing you should know about red hat though is that unlike many other people who call themselves open-source we truly are about the upstreams because If it is not upstream we are not going to ship it It doesn't exist if it's not in an upstream somewhere You know the reason some of these slides probably look familiar to some of the red hat people is that I Cribbed some of them Directly out of our new hire orientation Right, so when you join red hat you go through three days of new hire Orientation because we realize that a lot of people who join us from proprietary companies have no clue about how we work So I cribbed some of those slides because I want to show Everybody in fedora land What it is that we tell people who are joining red hat again This is one of the slides from new hire orientation We use it to try to explain to people who've never participated in open-source projects before What that really means and the way that red hat views it Hundreds of thousands of millions of open-source upstream projects of those projects we pick we red hat Pick the ones that we are going to participate in We try to work really hard in those communities And all of that eventually ends up in things that we have hardened and tested and support and shipped to our enterprise customers Where the red hat label on it that means a lot? It means certainly to red hat it means that we stand behind this thing But it also means that we have an awful lot of places where we have red hat people working in communities and participating openly in those communities Representing red hat, but also trying to be Genuine in in what they do in the communities because if it's not genuine It's it's not going to fly we really want to be open right as a company Red hat plus fedora fedora plus red hat Truly open. We're not trying to hide things from the fedora community. Sometimes we're disorganized Sometimes there are differences of opinion among red hat people and that gets exposed to the community You know that you guys have never seen a fedora developed flame We're in which the two sides or the three sides or the four sides are all red hat people Arguing it out on fedora developed, right? I've never seen any of those Yeah, you know we see those sometimes and I try to say um You know guys this is like maybe not so good for the community. Maybe we should try to be a little bit better aligned and not Fighting it out and airing dirty laundry so much in public, but the fact that it happens Shows you I think that we are trying to be as open as we can be There is no big secret agenda You know, we don't have these midnight meetings where we all sit and puff on cigars and say well How can we tell that to fedora? Sometimes at open and honest right sometimes we do sit and say, you know Here's what we need to do Here's what we think the product needs to do Does that work for fedora? How does that work for fedora? Is there a way we could make that work for fedora? um Because we understand that it matters You know what fedora people do really matters to red hat and a lot of the people in fedora or red hat people We all succeed Red hat succeeds when fedora succeeds, but I hope I hope everybody here understands that We genuinely want fedora to be popular We want it to be Useful for developers. We want it to be available to customers. We want it to be wildly successful We want fedora to be the development platform of choice We want fedora to be the thing that our our hardware partners pick up when they want to implement a new architecture Hey, you know, we want them to ship with fedora on as the default That's a win so again there has to be some I've talked a lot the really high level and really, you know, okay, touchy-feely kumaya So this is where we talk a little bit about where red hat wants to take the direction of The operating system, right and the things that red hat would like to see happen in fedora and if you think about it Some of these are also the places where you see red hat sponsor initiatives in fedora That are sponsored and worked on and worked on by the way by red hat people So when I think about the next generation of rail the next major release of rail the operating system the enterprise platform What I keep hearing Shibendu tell me tell me again, right the thing that customers tell you with everything that we see going on in the world, right? Core OS is It's going to be modular It's going to be a small hardened core with other pieces that layer on top of that in some sort of a way That gives us the ability to control what the interfaces look like If you went to Steve's server talk this morning Steve mentioned some of this there, right? How do you put apis on some of those interfaces? How do you make it so the layers work together and can proceed at their own speed? Because not everything is going to advance at the same speed And yet still reliably work together and by the way if you think about Testing and validation and continuous integration and continuous deployment, right? These are all ideas that kind of go together along with this so modularity Think back to the rings proposal, right? This is a theme that Folks from red hat have been supporting and working towards for quite some time now But also Remember that this is fedora. So there's no, you know, oh my god. We've got to do this, right? It's We present ideas to the community and try to sell them As here's where we think things need to go. Are you with us? Will you work with us? dependency management Right, so when I think about rail and what it means to have a small core Managing the dependencies there the build dependencies the runtime dependencies the amount of stuff that you have to ship That is something that for well the enterprise thing. I think that we need to cut down on right every package that well the product ships is a package that red hat the company has to support and If it's a build dependency, do I really want to ship it? Well, that opens up the opportunity for people to use it in lots of ways that we never tested So you see your motivation here, right? Another another place where we have in fact where red hat folks have a fedora initiative going on right now for fedora 23 is More security hardening It's hard to argue that security hardening is a bad thing. I Know it can sometimes get in the way of use ease of use, right? And we try to find a middle ground But security hardening is something that is becoming increasingly important to our customers And we think that it's important for fedora as well Just because nobody wants to be hacked Easy to update from release to release Now if I'm a rail customer I Don't know if you guys know about the way that we sell rail But what what red hat sells is not a version of rail, right? You don't buy rail six and then when you want to upgrade to rail seven you go buy rail seven That's not the way it works You buy a subscription To rail and you get to use whatever version that we're supporting that you want to use Which means that rail customers have all sorts of different versions running in their environments Because what red hat sells is the support for all these different versions But it means that our customers when they want to upgrade from one release to another release Are not doing that in a vacuum, right? It's not like one day they're going to go into their environment and throw out 10,000 rail six servers and replace them with 10,000 rail seven servers Because you know it doesn't work that way. They're going to gradually stage things in and Many of them want to upgrade what they have So it's really important when we think about what it means to Particularly to a sys admin right to go from one reversion to another version That we they don't have to retrain their fingers, right that their muscle memory still works that the commands that they used Are at least not going to destroy them when they type them in on that new major version Think dnf and young Right lots of opportunity to cause a lot of pain for some poor guy who's used to young and but you know I think that Since a lot of the folks who use fedora are sys admins We think that that's actually a goal. That's pretty reasonable for fedora, too, right? Nobody wants to have to learn a whole new command line Well, maybe some people do but there's a name for it So the other thing though to think about is a Rel major release is Usually like six or seven fedora releases, right? Because it's over a much longer time frame So when we talk about updates, it's over a longer period of time And so we try to make sure that things are compatible for longer periods of time But that but easy to update, you know, so this is another goal of ours for the next generation of rail Automated composition Tied in with automated testing So this is kind of a generic goal overall, right? See I continuous integration Leading to maybe someday Continuous deployment and what that means for an operating system at the moment is anybody's guess But but we think that in order to compete in the world. We have to have better testing available earlier and earlier in the product creation cycle And we have to be continuously testing all the way through And we have to be testing at small units to bigger units to bigger units So that by the time we get to the overall compose we know all the pieces are good and all that we're fighting our integration integration issues between modules right or between containers or You know between elements that are bigger than packages Right because the compose is not the place where you want to discover. Oh or dependency mismatch So when you think about some of the work that release engineering is looking at Well, guess what? You know, there's a common theme here right because every operating system Has the same problem So this is Work that we are trying to support in fedora and it feeds into what we do for Ralph To think a little bit about specific technical areas because you know, it's a technical crowd, right? And I don't get to hand wave completely Well, I can handle it all day long, but but I figured we you know, well, it's still evolving So product management for Ralph is out there talking with customers And they bring things back to the engineering teams and then we think about well, is there a common theme here, right? What's emerging? So what's emerging then becomes what upstreams do we need to make sure that we have people working on? What upstreams do we need to make sure we're supporting? What efforts where you know, we have finite resources, right like any other organization, so Where do we put our people? Where do we encourage our people to work upstream? so If you start to see us encouraging people to get IPv6 support through all sorts of different utilities that might not have it already Guess what? It's in support of a rail dot next theme IPv6 through stack atomic, right? So we are hearing from our customers that they want really small core. They want Rollback They want the ability that they want the the system management ability that comes with atomic So we Red Hat are investing to make sure that atomic gets good support in Fedora Python 3 Here's another effort that Red Hat folks in Fedora have been working to support, right? We would like Python 3 to be the Python that is in place by the time we get to the next major version of Ralph And we're putting our money where our mouth is and trying to work with the upstreams and get it supported, right Nick? Seamless data integration for sysadmins. There are lots of other things, right? We would love to see more roll kit support for interesting roles Some of the things that Steve was mentioning in his talk this morning a lot of that it's Work that we're trying to support So I wanted to talk a little bit about the level of support that Red Hat provides for Fedora Because I don't know if you guys have a lot of sense of How much we really do invest I went looking and There are 35 full-time Red Hat people The Fedora infrastructure team the release engineering team a bunch of folks working on QA 35 people all together now That that work full-time supporting Fedora I Took a wag at what that really meant in terms of dollars If you assume that we pay each of those people 50,000 us dollars a year Which I'll tell you right now is a low estimate, right? That's 1.75 million dollars every year in salaries alone That Red Hat pays for people to work full-time on Fedora That's not every year and that's that's not an inconsiderable investment, right? We have hundreds of engineers who package things for Fedora who work part-time We have the copper team, right? We have all sorts of people who are doing things that benefit The upstream that is Fedora and Apple and copper Maintainers QE press marketing sponsorship Ambassador money Hardware infrastructure, and I know this because because this is my hardware budget And believe me there is competition for hardware budget, right? But Fedora this year got $144,000 worth of new hardware into your infrastructure So I really I feel like we're trying to do the right thing here and the truth is Nobody's going to be surprised at this, right? We don't do this as a charity Yeah, if I told you this was that we did this out of the goodness of of ready-at-hearts You wouldn't believe me anyway, and I'd be lying through my teeth Right, and I'm not going to lie to you We do this because it benefits Red Hat the business But we also do it because it furthers Red Hat the open-source company with an open-source mission And that's a core part of our mission statement We do it because we think we believe really strongly in open source As the place that innovation comes from and as a place that drives the economy Fedora is a lot more than a beta cycle for what rel is going to become right? It's a fountain of innovation It's a fountain of ideas, and it's a place where hopefully we make the world a better place Because we want to promote open-source software development. Oh And we also want to sell rel Yeah, but fortunately it goes together So what we would like to establish with Fedora is We're working towards and we and we try to live this ourselves. We want to be Part of a community that considers the status quo a hurdle not a goal We want to be trying to get better and willing to change in order to improve things Not pretty what has changed not changed just for the heck of it But we want to be innovative here right try different things and be open to new ideas Because the distro as just a place where we throw as many packages as we possibly can That's that's dead right it's dead Jim We want to support a constantly adapting and evolving community because Fedora is never going to be done The world is always going to change and we're always going to have to change in response to it Or we go the way in the dinosaur And although you know the dinosaur barbecue is like you're really good That's not what we want for Fedora, right? We don't know I'm not in the pit We want positive constructive dialogue Hey Honest to get out of it. We're not always right believe me So We want feedback. We want people to share their ideas We want community participation and we really really really want to help the community grow because bigger communities Benefit everybody So what we plan to do with Fedora is we want to try to be better about the way that we communicate Red Hat goals and desires to everybody and this talk is a step in the right direction If I look around the room a lot of the faces here are from Red Hat Figuring they're the ones who most want to know what does Red Hat want? Tell me guys right because Red Hat even internally is not always clear with the people who work for Red Hat about what we want So everybody wants to know and we are going to try to be better Coordinated about where we're going and what we want Positive constructive dialogue. Yeah, there's that line again. We want to be clear and open about our desired technical outcomes as well As clear as we can be because we don't always know what we want technically because the technical Discussions have to happen among the technical people Right, there's got to be argument back and forth and hopefully the best idea wins That's not something that we're ever going to dictate to a community because we don't know We guarantee that we are going to be understanding when things don't go our way because you know It's a community things aren't always going to go the way Red Hat wants it to go That's life but we will put our money where our mouth is and send patches and I've tried to to show places where we're doing that already So some of the Fedora initiatives that Red Hat is Red Hat people are working on We try to try to support the things that we now need to happen So what does Red Hat want? we want to work better with Fedora to create the operating system that is going to be the winner over the next 10 years and We want that to be Fedora and well and Cento is Because it's family Yes Joe So I like hearing that you want to have communication you know one voice Any ideas on what form that is going to take how we're going to Communicate that like what's that secret midnight cabal No That's something that we're that's something that we're trying to work out. So when I I look around the room right and there are a number of fairly senior technical folks from Red Hat Who are sitting in this room who are also serious Fedora contributors? And what we're trying to do right now is discuss What are we really going to need for the next generation of rail and as we figure that out we'll be Sharing that with Fedora right and sponsoring that as Fedora future requests I will be doing more. So a lot of people who work for the platform organization No, I try to do Internal Red Hat talks about where we're going and I'm going to be trying to do those internally to Red Hat More often so that the Red Hat people have an idea of what some of the goals are and then hopefully we will we will be More united when we talk with Fedora It's almost like it's on there, right? So something like this modular one, right? What problem does it solve? I'd just like to see more of that communication, especially not a technical person But I'm not that low-down in staff. Yeah, you're right. A lot of times I communicate. That's an excellent point Yeah Yeah, yeah. Well, and you know that's that comes back to you as well Engineers make decisions every day that affect technical direction And if they don't understand the use case if they don't understand The bigger picture that we're going towards then they're not going to be able to make the right decisions So yeah doing that kind of Brendan. Yeah doing that kind of communication is You're right something that we need to get better Oh You should that that Absolutely should doubt that because we're not always clear about that because oftentimes we don't know what those use cases are product management But but that's okay because we are working towards being more clear about that Remain I was optimistically Now you get the secret to coterie Hey, I'm management I plagiarized Oops, sorry I Yeah, you think you've communicated it, but you haven't yeah better communication venues step one There's so many just that don't always do the best as far as the community goes Yeah, yeah, some groups get kind of heads down Not so much in the operating system team, but some product teams You know, I mean you guys have worked on products before you understand what it's like to have a due date, right? And it sometimes becomes hard for those guys to remember What it means to be upstream first and so we have to continually remind them And sometimes it happens a little after the fact but sometimes we have to have cooperation from the upstreams and If the upstreams aren't cooperating and you have to shut the product. What do you do so they get into this kind of quandary? Yes, I was just going to add to that. It's it's having come from one of those groups. I think a Couple years ago I think part of the problem is and I know that this is known as not a big secret It's just that you got to look at why they choose to do that people that come the red head Don't come there to work behind the scenes on close-up software Yeah, but it can very well be that trying to do stuff in the community is Harder than doing it privately and that's you know, it's an honest question on the fedora side We need to ask why we have a whole team of infrastructure We have everything that you need to do this stuff. Why are they still choosing to do it finally? But also why is it so hard sometimes, right? other questions Comments no tomatoes. Oh, right I understand where a few of those you come from because a lot of times it seems like a huge effort is being spun up But it's being spun up by almost an insular group of people who They're already they all know what their goal is but nobody else seems to know Something wrong with that generally But yeah, but it means yeah, well that kind of ties into what Langdon said That sometimes we forget that the people in the group that you're talking to are only red-headers It means I think that we need to be doing those discussions You know, that's the kind of discussion that always happens best face-to-face. Yeah, and so we don't see everybody All that often. I'm hoping that a lot of this that these discussions are going to happen at flock, right? maybe you know Flock dev comp those are the kinds of things Maybe we try to do more face-to-face or you know, we just do more Google hangouts, right? I mean, I'm gonna assume make the assumption that the board the board board knows knows what What the current goals are Right now is going to push put their their effort into as it involves If Doctors a big deal. Yeah, so we're going to do doctor Set of things down to acting the guidelines for the Doctors written and have to be developed etc. So that affects I had no idea that there was a big push because I wasn't paying attention. I didn't know No, we didn't communicate that. Yeah, so I didn't know it's all of a sudden There's this huge portion all the people working and it seemed to come out a whole cloth And I know it's a big deal, but I didn't think it was such a big deal. That's that that kind of group would spontaneously organize itself so If the council knows then the council can obviously Communicate That's a good idea. Yeah. Yeah, we do a kind of official maybe quarterly council update No We know what what red hat wants to do Who gets to be the red hat spokesperson Right Even to redheaders You Steven But, as it has grown, scaling the communications has been one of the three single hardest things. And I don't think that the problems here and in fact there are specific to let that happen to Ghidorah. These things are to be used when you do a small number of people. And there's always the risk that you turn the power to the other direction and you end up having so much information that nobody is able to get out of it faster than you do now. So, yeah, these problems are hard, there's nothing malicious if there's something else that you can do better. But, with a project this size, there are more tools in the building. And point out where we screw up, right? Well, I know you will. But do that here. So, there's one thing which I think in the community that makes for that food city that we've got is when realtors are actually leaving Red Hat and our federal contractors. So, what's happening is when realtors leave Red Hat and after our package we get an email saying that this person has left Red Hat and he's the package for these and these packages. And then we send an email to the delivery saying that this predator has left as packages and we don't know what he or she wants to do with it. And then we put you by the eye and then monsters and packages are found and someone take them or don't take them. And this is something which reflects a little bit badly in Red Hat because it gives the feeling to the community that people that are leaving Red Hat are in federal. And that gives them the answer that they were actually planning to work in federal and that they don't care about federal so when you leave Red Hat they leave federal. Hey, look two people over. The recent past is the only project that I know that I've left for that and actually prepared his departure by moving his package towards the people and working. I actually have a question but I also want to respond to that. You know, Denise mentioned earlier that Red Hat specifically said, you know, like when I came on board I came from Citrix and I was working on a factory cloud stack which kind of competes with open stuff, right? Explicitly it is allowed for me to continue working on that. That's not the case when someone leaves Red Hat and goes elsewhere. Yeah, that's a good point. There's been a lot of, you know, somebody who used Red Hat and say, let's say somebody's, you know, Amazon's who's going to get somebody to get offered. They don't have that same agreement for Amazon. Plus, you know, your day job is somewhere else. While, you know, like a lot of stuff I do on the door, I don't consider the apartment day job. But I have that latitude whereas you go to Amazon or Cisco or something like that. You may not have that latitude. I don't know about my business. I do know people who have long days. That's the majority of the factory companies have not. They do processes like that. Yeah. Well, projects you work on are intellectual property. They belong to the company where they work more. You know, at the end of the day job, the time and the stuff that they're expected to do doesn't mean much. Most of the community is actually doing these fun with their time. No. So, two suggestions then. First, Is there something wrong with working on Fedora because you're paid by writing out to do it? I mean, actually, you know, that's like okay. Some people are that way, right? And some people take it another step further. And in fact, most Red Hatters take it that step further. So, but I hear what you're saying that we shouldn't make sure that packages don't get abandoned just because someone leaves Red Hat. Okay, Joe. Yeah. One thing that I just may be a high group, but I would love to see a commitment, you know, we have reached that information overload. I can barely keep up with the some of the internal discussions about Docker and Atomic, much less all the external ones and so on. But I would love to see Red Hat invest in some, just one or two resources to summarize discussions and make them public so people can follow those things. Absolutely. Hi, Brandon. All right, hang on. One second, hang on. You guys are more than welcome to stand here as long as you want, but we're 15 minutes over already. I just want to remind everybody that there is no plan for dinner so you're on your own.