 Over the past few weeks, a huge controversy has broken out in the media space in Tamil Nadu. It broke out with the right-wing YouTuber, Maridas, levelling allegations that prominent journalists in Tamil Nadu were close to the approach in DMK and Dravidian and left political ideologies. He specifically targeted this channel, News 18 Tamil Nadu. The channel, at its editor, Gunasekaran, have approached the courts against his wide allegations, but an employee of the channel, Asit Makhman, was asked to resign. In this context, we talk to Mr. Arvijay Shankar, editor of the Frontline magazine. Welcome. Thank you. Last couple of weeks, Tamil Nadu is witnessing some sort of turbulence in the media industry. So what is your opinion on this particular turbulence where the Sangh Parivaris are reaching an attack on the journalists who are very famous in the Tamil media? I know. To understand what you termed as turbulence, you should look at the immediate political context. The political context is this. See, Dravidian parties, Dravidian movement has been ruling the state for the past 52 years without interruption. And they've been getting about 70 to 78, 75% of votes. So they really remind a very solid force. In this context, what has happened is in the last two, three years, what has happened is the Dravidian movement, if you take DMK and ADMK, there is some criticism that it's not a really Dravidian movement. We'll not go into it. But still, basic ideology arose from a basic movement called Dravidian movement. So what has happened in the last two years, two veterans, two big leaders of this movement, Mr. Hem Karanidhi and Mr. J. Lalitha, who were getting DMK and ADMK governments, alternatively, they passed away. So now, the problem for BJP, BJP has emerged at this around the same time. Just some two, three years before that, the BJP has emerged as a big all-India party. First time coming to power at the center with its own majority. And now it says that it feels that it can really rule the country forever. And Modi is like Har Har Modi, who is a real savior for the country, the kind of narrative they're developing. But what is happening is despite all their proclamations about BJP being unbeatable, Modi being unbeatable, what is happening in Tamil Nadu, what has been happening in Tamil Nadu is, BJP is not able to really do anything to really enter this political scene. So this is the political context. They are trying every trick in their trade to gain a foothold. Actually, it can be, you can't even call it a foothold because they're not able to get any votes. They try to manipulate. Finally, what they've done is after the death of J. Lalitha, demise of J. Lalitha, what they tried was what they've been trying to do is to split the ADMK, weaken the ADMK and through the backdoor, using the ADMK, capture the political space. That is the game. But even there, they're not able to do it fully because here in Tamil Nadu, people are able to see through this, the game. It's not a very secret game. It's not a very clever game. It's very, very unintelligent way of doing politics. That's what they are doing. And our chief minister and deputy chief minister, both are highly pliable. They are pulling too highly pliable. They listen to them. They act according to their wishes and most places. Even some ideological issues, they are willing to compromise, but they're playing in a way, a kind of clever game of balancing between this. Holding on to power because they have five years of power and nobody is willing to destabilize the government even within this. The split also didn't work mainly because they are in power. They want power. So that is the whole game. So in this context only, the BJP is trying to do what we can call through media manipulation. They can somehow change the entire narrative, entire socio-cultural political space of Tamil Nadu. And generally people's outlook here, from this context, we should try to understand what is happening in Tamil Nadu, what has happened in the last 100 years. The Dravidian movement is there. Actually, it started the Justice Party as the starting point. For the past 100 years, it is dominating. And its main achievement is social justice. Reservation is a major achievement. And they have really, even on the governance front, achievements of Tamil Nadu government are really highly appreciable within this Indian setup, Indian Union. They have done something in public health education. That is one of the reasons why the party's Dravidian rule is so strong here. So to break into this, BJP thinks that it can easily manipulate the media. Media strategy will work. But it's not just media strategy. BJP's basic problem is your ideology is completely antithetical to what is the mindset or the thinking of people in Tamil Nadu for so many years. So this is the context. So in this context only, they are trying to change the narrative. And they are intensifying their efforts now because the election is just a year away. So this is the context. Next question. In the last week, we have seen the outster of Birochi from New City. And prior to that, there was a buildup to this particular incident. He was linked to a YouTube channel which has the backing, supposedly the backing of the Dravidian Karakam. And he was wrongly connected with this particular channel. And in other ways, he was literally forced to or he was betrayed by the management as well. So do you think that some kind of state pressure has worked in this? State pressure, as I told you, this is why I said the political context is very important. What is happening in media business in Tamil Nadu is there are families, there are newspapers, television channels run by some families traditionally for a long time. And roughly what has happened is some businessmen have entered the media business. So now it is easy for BJP to talk to them. You know what it means? Business and politics, which for example, BJP has succeeded to a large extent in capturing or in controlling the media, especially television media in North India, English channels. You know what, I don't want to go into it except some one or two honorable exceptions. So in Tamil Nadu, the management's also in a way are not very firm in resisting any such moves. So what has happened is this particular person, Asif, has been very active in fighting for media, that is journalists' rights, media freedom and various aspects. He is an activist and same thing, he is a professional also. See the problem in Tamil Nadu is though media houses are owned by, these dominant media houses are owned by businessmen who have their own business interests to promote. These anchors, if you look at the anchors, most of them come from a particular political or social background which is inevitable. For this to understand, again they go back to the Dravidian movement. In the past 100 years, the beneficiaries of this reservation, they have thrown up their backward classes due to the cost of coming up in a big way. So basically Tamil intelligentsia consists of mostly Dravidian people coming from this Dravidian background, the intelligentsia, the educated section, that is dominant. Also equally our people with some kind of leftist orientation. This Dravidian and leftist orientation, some people they think that they are one. Dravidian and leftist, both ideals because left works on the political front or economic front. We work from the social front, we are for social justice, they have economic, that kind of understanding is there. So then nationalist movement, Congress. So most of the people educated sections who constitute this intelligentsia in Tamil Nadu are from these three backgrounds, mainly Dravidian background. So naturally the new media, television media emerged in Tamil Nadu. Most of the anchors and most of the journalists come from this background. So that is the problem. But the problem is these journalists, these anchors I know personally, that they are very, very professional, very, very professional. They don't, see they have their own, see can there be a neutral person in the world. Then there will be neutral journalists. Is there something called neutrality? There is nothing. You take sites, that is journalism. You stand by the side of the underprivileged or the oppressed. So from that perspective they can be called progressive leftist. Otherwise they belong to their, they belong to various or they believe in certain ideology or they, in a way they support some political party, but they don't show it in their shows. In my experience, what, I'll tell you what really has happened. The problem is that I used to go and participate in debates, television debates. Most of the debates, even before BJP comes to power, those days not many BJP representatives used to come there. For the shows, for the debates. Later, just before Modi was projected prime minister, or later after Modi came to power, BJP representatives used to be there in the debate. Then what happened was, there will be in a panel, there will be one BJP person, there will be one journalist, a liberal or progressive minded journalist, there will be one person from BMK, the civilian party, or one from BMK. So all this party, what really happened is over a period. The BJP, because of his political and social ideology, they were seen as a minor. They think that they were cornered by others. I remember many BJP fellows, BJP spokesperson used to say, we have to answer three or four people at the time, but it's not the channels for it. It's not the channels or it's not the fault of the anchor. It is your political ideology where politics, you are getting isolated in this environment. If it happens in Delhi, it may not be the case. So later they started putting pressure on this management. What happened was later, the panels, there will be one BJP political representative, and there will be at least three or four, two or three other people come in various disguises. Samuha Arwala, social activist, or right wing thinker, or auditor. All these people are basically RSS or BJP background. So in this context, BJP people feel miserable. So they started attacking the anchors. And anchors, actually the media houses were very, very fair to the BJP, giving them representation more than, it's not proportional. It's more than proportional to their real actual strength in Tamil Nadu. But still because of their own politics, narrow-minded politics, they were getting isolated. So anchors were targeted. Then they targeted journalists who are active. So this went to a recent crescendo recently because again elections are coming. They also had their own in-house journalists who masquerade as senior journalists. They come in various names. They come as publishers. They come as auditors. But they are also not able to match the panelists or the anchors question. They are not able to answer most of the questions. So in this situation, they think that getting rid of journalists who are really progressive is the only way to capture the media channel. And some managements may also be willing to play this game. Go along this. This is the context. Sir, the state government is also remaining very silent on the cyber attacks and the abuses on the activists or the journalists who are participating in the debates. So do you think that the ADMK government is, you know, playing into the hands of the BJP? Yeah, that is why I gave you the first political context. The ADMK government now is surviving because it has a majority. But again, it is a disputed thing. There are a lot of problems. Even there is a defection and, you know, the split and even I quote, we are now directly delaying or that is a different issue. We're not going to it. But the ADMK government is the playing the game which the BJP wants you to play. That is what is happening because they want to be in power. They know that it is difficult to be without a certain government support. It's very difficult even at the cost of sacrificing their basic core values. So what they do is they also play along. For example, you know, I'll use some examples. One comedian is that I don't even want to name. He was seized for very derogatively of women journalists in Tamil Nadu. Women journalists because they use their feminine charms to get to the jobs. It created a media furor and Hasif who is now victimized. He is on the forefront of one of the agitations against this comedian. He's a comedian. I will not consider him as an actor. He's an actor, well known actor. But he is a, even politically he's a comedian. Yes, the case was filed against him. But the problem is Tamil Nadu police which is often compared to the Scotland dad. They were not willing to, they were not able to catch this man who was walking around in our public. He was present in many public functions involving former chief secretary. He is related to the chief secretary. So this is the government, this is the kind of government we have. But at the same time, now they are taking action against one Karuppar for being very, that is they are promoting main media or promoting kind of disaffection against religion, some kind of thing. See the problem they are applying Kunda Act. They are invoking Kunda Act. So the EDMK government wants exactly the game that the BJP wants to play. So that is the real situation is really media freedom is under threat because what they do is this government, you know these channels are dependent on one thing because in the cities at least you have private service providers. But Tamil Nadu for the reach of the media, you need something called the government created RSV cable TV. So one of the channels actually, I see your media, your channel number is very important in the listing of RSV cable or any service. You remember that name, you remember the number for the channel. What they did with our particular channel was to suddenly change it name, degrade it, take it somewhere else. So it's not visible, it's a mix. So that is how the kind of manipulation, the kind of unethical acts they are in, that's what they do. And even when there are complaints against journalists, you know there are complaints against people who have been really trolling journalists, women, attacking women in a decent way. These people are not able to find, Scotland is not able to find them, they are present. You can see them everywhere. And the police also, the government is fully with the BJP government and with the election around, we love to see how the game develops. Another issue is a facet Muhammad who was asked to resign. He has said that he was also being targeted for his union activities among media persons. Do you think his activation played a role here? It is expected. Any media house, I don't think you can just talk about corporate houses. Others are a bit lenient, they don't act so partially. But the problem is in the television medium, as I told you earlier, in Tamil Nadu the dominant channels are run by big businessmen who are connected politically and economically. There are various connection nexus is working. This makes it very important. So first target of any management, not only media management with union. In Tamil Nadu, one negative side is union activity is not very strong. Hasif and others belong to small groups. There are some groups, there is no effective resistance in Tamil Nadu which is not building up for various reasons. I don't want to go into it, I know the reasons. But it's highly divided journalist community in Tamil Nadu. But the problem is definitely Hasif is, see, your activity outside your office, your channel and within the channel. This distinction has to be made. Was he a good professional? That should be the only criteria. Was he bringing news or was he able to do analysis or was he able to do good interviews? As far as I know Hasif was a good, one example I'm talking about. Even media anchors like Munasekar and Karthik Acharya, they are very good professionals. So the problem is union activity is an easy handle for them. So union activity, that is the first condition any media organization or any organizational guy will do. Though it is very weak, even that is only a handle. See it's not only an excuse. They don't want it because he is very active. That is the issue. And they go into the background, political background, even family background of journalists. But final test in that case, no journalist coming to you, no person in India can come into journalists if you belong to a political family. How is it right? What are you doing as a professional, as an anchor, as an editor? That is more important than that is a real test lies there. So this many media manipulation or the activities against the media, media freedom comes from the central government, state government and some playable media organizations. And they also act as he sometimes actually there are some cases of this BJP leaders telling anchors not to call some journalists or not to call these for the debates. And media management also banned some people who participate in the panel be a panelist. I don't want to mention names. Yes, one final question. So the state is going to the elections in another 10 to 11 months. So the person desperation of the BJP is, you know, do you think that the desperation is towards capturing power or capture the ADMK and in a way, you know, sit in the power and do something. You know, as I told you earlier, BJP in Tamil Nadu is really acting in the most unpolitical, unintelligent way of his politics completely. It lacks imagination. It lacks bankrupt. So this only by writing piggyback on ADMK or split one faction of ADMK, they can do it. And they have some journalists on their side. And they see the problem is media debates and media landscape media escape in Tamil Nadu is very active mainly because there are so many progressive journalists here by manipulating this. If BJP thinks that they can come to power, they can change the entire mindset of people. They can change the entire social justice platform. Disrupt the stage that is completely change the narrative. It is, it is not to happen. Definitely it's not going to happen. And very interestingly, what is happening is, apart from BJP's complete isolation in the cultural and social world of Tamil Nadu, the real problem is the BJP's lack of rigor, intellectual tradition. In my experience, when I go to debates, it's very difficult to counter people who are who have not read anything who doesn't know history. They don't know science. They don't know their own history. We know better history of RSS than most of the BJP fellows. So the problem is, it is difficult to engage in a conversation with the person who is intellectually bankrupt, a party which is intellectually bankrupt. It has no traditional scholarship. It is not, it's not the case of only Tamil Nadu. Look at all their debates, look at the channels, the kind of debates, the kind of argument they put forward in every debate. Most of them you will see that they are bankrupt. Intellectual bankruptcy is the hallmark of the BJP or RSS. Only emotional, emotional, they will appeal to emotion, right on emotion, which will not work in Tamil Nadu. Okay, thank you sir. Thank you for your time.