 Right Want to start up besides having I suppose well So you named it appropriately the life and death of the block life and death of a blog Isn't it Tom would word that says something like nobody or people still blog here. Here's one. We time One open. Yeah, so so what happened Jim Jim what happened? What happened? I Know the blog has been dying on and off for about you know, five or six years maybe longer seven years ever since You know Twitter and tumbler. Yeah, but I think take this old man in the corner of the rumors of my death They're really exaggerated. So let's maybe start at the beginning. Why are we even having this conversation? I what's the next iteration? Why now? Because there was recently an announcement a few days ago that Harvard blogs Which was basically started by the Berkman Center in 2003 and was the first Academic blogging system. I think that's pretty Established. I mean, maybe some will say I did it first like you know some come out there I built one. Yeah, but like it's pretty much the first institutional blogging Platform. Yeah as a multi-user type platform and not running WordPress at the time was WordPress didn't even exist In 2003 yeah, it would have been something it was built on David Weiner's Userland they built it Okay, and when we were doing some research for this episode because we do research these episodes intensely Absolutely, we realize that alongside Weiner the director of marketing for user land was scobalizer Robert scobal. That's right That's why the blogs died because he went to video But I do think that It it opens up the question of is Academic blogging dead so yesterday we got an email asking us some of our opinions given our early involvement with UMW blogs Which was another blogging platform, which people thought of as a kind of touchstone for academic blogging You know, what's the state of academic blogging? 15 years on now because that's 15 years ago. Yeah and We wanted to do an episode and talk a little bit about that and think about that. I think I'll start by saying that my my feeling and you may or may not agree with some of this is You know academic blogging per se as We think about blog as like that's the little space where you blog and you get a blog and it's a WordPress multi-site Or even before then, you know some of that conceptual Conceptual way we think of the blog as this very isolated site where you go and write is Dead only because the term and the idea behind blogging became so diffusely Conflated or even like replacing our notion of the web Yeah, like the web as we write right now is essentially a blog which was an easy way to write HTML through a web-based interface usually a verse chronological offering news and reflections on things I mean that's like the web I was gonna say like people log into Facebook and do that every day and they don't consider themselves bloggers and you could You can make the argument that blogging is more long form But then there are certainly bloggers to write short snippets of things and then you know There are people who write long form stuff on Facebook or on medium and other third-party services and that kind of thing too And I always felt like blogging as a term was kind of nebulous too because you know There were people who would you go to or I guess you go to set up a blog and it's like what you know is a blog You know and then people like I don't want to blog. I want a website. I want to build out a web presence And it's like okay, and you know like you're using WordPress still and that's you know Sometimes I've had folks who you know Criticize domain of one's own because they're like well, it's all WordPress, you know, it's just blogging You know, and it's like why wouldn't you just set up a WordPress multi-site? And so it became this very nebulous term where it's like if everybody's just blogging and like really like you're saying It's really just publishing right it's just web publishing and in a variety of different forms and places and things Exactly, and I think one of the early points we made is we called you on the view blogs an academic publishing platform Like that was the idea of it and if we say is academic blogging dead I mean no, but arguably could said it's not nearly as active as it was 15 years or even not 15 10 years ago say or nine years ago but Publishing through academic spaces or publishing online in a blog like form has never been more Powerful and popular and necessary. So in some ways, it's not dead, but I think the question that the Harvard blogs You know kind of it's not the Harvard blogs What happened just to be specific about that is they made an announcement. They said look it's gonna no longer live in the Berkman Center It's gonna move over to the it, you know, they're gonna cabin users They said they use the term cabin which I thought was interesting Yeah, and they're gonna basically not let any outsiders on the blogging platform outside of Harvard It's gonna move to it, which for me always spelled a certain amount of trouble But like, you know, like it's moving it. Yeah, that's a good thing But I do think that was it hosted internally before do we know it hurt? Must have been hosted internally by by Berkman, but I'm not sure that yeah, I know that now Yeah, but I think it is basically taking it over. It's becoming enterprise and rethinking it But big thing of why they said they're doing it is because of content matter moderation, right? I thought was interesting. Yeah, it didn't sound because to be clear. It's not a huge platform They never had thousands upon thousands of users in there, you know, I think it's a couple hundred blogs, you know It was an itch, you know, it wasn't and they didn't cite, you know, like oh Plug-in updates and that that's been really hard on us, you know It wasn't necessarily the infrastructure lead that it was gonna be a problem because IT could take that over and say like hey Yeah, no problem like we'll handle this going forward or they could outsourced it to any one of the number of companies that you know Specialized in that kind of thing. So I don't think that was necessarily the problem They were trying to resolve or just pass off. It was the idea that you know, they were I Presume getting requests in to get stuff taken down You know content moderation in general and they were being put I guess in a weird situation of having to Moderate content for users that may or may not still exist and whether or not they keep things online Are they considered an archival type platform? And what's their responsibility to the content of what was on there and in terms of historical record and keeping it up Versus, you know political free speech and all that and I think they just wanted to wash their hands of it and say Which was an interesting move though in this day and age to say, you know The kind of the question around free speech is what had bogged them down. Yeah, like wow like that's bizarre So let's put it to where Twitter Yeah, I got a good place for it Twitter and Google right but the other point that I thought was interesting is So Harvard has basically said we're gonna move it over to IT. We're doing that But how many blogs can you think of that were on that platform that you read regularly? I can only think of one is Doc Searles. Yeah, who's one of the early kind of thinker of identity management and you know he was part of the whole kind of you know, there was a manifesto around the new web around the early aughts and His stuff I still read and he's still published there. So I wonder where he'll go But I don't think I'm interested and I don't know but I can't imagine that it was a super active platform No, and that they would be moderating like mad to keep, you know, but I don't know Mapa domain on top. Like you say he's And I want to believe and we'll we'll get into that in a minute about like link rod and that because you know Those folks come out there. Oh, like all these URLs are gonna disappear and how tragic for the web And you know, but it's odd to me that you know anybody who Regularly still uses and it was passionate about it wouldn't have cared enough to say like I don't want this to necessarily be connected To the URL so that I couldn't have the portability to move it, you know And that's I mean it does it brings us into a transition as nicely into another part of this conversation is so when we were asked questions one of the questions were have other platforms also gone the font right WordPress and You know, did we have we missed them sure and I'm trying to think of like Institutional like WordPress platforms that I could say oh, I really miss that No, I mean, I mean, but that's the nature of institutional platforms often, right? I think you know at the at the Macro level like for Institutions you see these platforms as a tool in a way to like in the moment in a classroom Provide that publishing space provide a space in which you have the tools necessary to build out to publish and do things At the micro level for the user, you know, whether they'll miss it or not depends more on like how much they care and Own their own space and they might start on your institutional platform and decide okay Well, I know I'm gonna graduate a few years Or maybe I am graduating and I need to move it to somewhere else Portability is a huge thing there, but I feel like you know Whether a space exists or not cares more at the micro level for the user Who's gonna take their stuff and move on somewhere else for at the at the larger level of the institution? It's just a tool and whether they choose to invest in it ongoing or not It's kind of up to them which was actually I think you're I agree with you Yeah, which may not make this the most interesting conversation. I really like you yeah But I think when we were doing UMW blogs, you know Which was a blogging platform using wordpress in 2007 and the question was like were we influenced by Harvard blogs? It's absolutely like yeah We could point people and say look what Harvard's doing and in 2007 is when they switched it from user land to wordpress right and We could say look what they did and we can do that here It was a very easy win because it's Harvard and people like Harvard did it. I want to do it, right? So that was an easy win But the point at you and the blogs was not about okay now we built the system and it's gonna be You know, we're gonna be enterprise level. It was always about users create stuff with the idea that they take it with them It's why we started talking about domain mapping in 2008 That's why we said domain of one's own as a wordpress multi-side instance Not necessarily thinking beyond that. Oh my god We can run our own cPanel servers But like it was the kernel in the beginning of the ideas of agency and digital identity That we pushed on for the subsequent seven or eight years So the blogging platform and the academic blogging platform specifically for me was super important Yeah, to start having questions around agency and ownership and this idea of care of your stuff That this is your digital work and it was an alternative to the LMS which had no Really thoughtful manageable way to export data So when you saw an XML export wordpress and you talk to people about it It was a really Revolutionary idea that you could take the work you did at university Take it with you and build that idea of an online presence And that's why the domain was so important because that became the address Exactly where you mapped it didn't matter. Yeah, and I think that's what people care more about like so We've had a lot of conversations Jumping around now on Twitter about how sad this is and I don't think people are sad About the fact that this publishing platform is going away because there's no shortage of other You know you could sign wordpress.com wordpress multi so you get a reclaim post you got you you could publish in so many, you know You can publish in so many different places that I don't think it's you know It's not about the platform. You're sad about the content and the URLs Disappearing from the web and so the folks worry about link rot and about preservation And you know for one I want to believe that you know the library could play a role in this You know that that folks that are you know dedicated to archival strategies could play a role in that and I think what we We already realize you know because of all of the closures that we've been through in the past whatever 20-30 years of the web's existence that you know the way we have URL structures is kind of broken right now and that you Know as soon as that host is gone all the content is disconnected from that URL and there are a lot of Really smart people like Internet archive like Library of Congress trying to work through and think how do we fix this? How do we make it so that in 20 30 50 years 100 years from now that all of our historical record is missing because the URLs are broken to everything like you know something really what should be simple It's a lot harder to keep content alive, but it should be fairly simple to have URLs that persist And so that you know if I want to continue to reducer all stuff that I can do that without somebody having to you know Manage that there's a service called perma dot cc that I was looking at the other day you know and Through Scott Leslie on Twitter had mentioned it and you know it basically is backed by a whole ton of different Institutions and government entities and everything with the goal of being that you can generate It's essentially like bitly but backed by real nonprofit organizations and a ton of them in order to create a short URL that would persist and Actually snapshot a screenshot of the website and hold all of that information so you could cite that URL in Published papers and legal documents and things like that So you know the folks come out about like the link right like oh, it's so sad that this stuff is existing and you know to some extent It is you know, it's unfortunate But at the same time I've got to believe like it There's if there is real importance at the user level for what they're publishing that they're doing it on their own Domain whether that be using Harvard still as a publishing platform or doing it somewhere else and migrating their content I mean we've had this conversation and get it again the personal Personal archive of one's own right like people should take control and care for the work because we can't expect with the turnover at institutions The way in which you know, there's a new technology people funnel all the resources into that old technologies are hard to run They don't miss often have the expertise depending on the university and they fall by the wayside and that falls into disrepair if not Deleted, I mean we've seen that happen again and again not just with third-party, you know for profit services But also at the universities But I think that one of the things I've been realizing recently and something we want to work on is how do we make archiving easier, right? So if you do like we've been playing with this tool site sucker and you could also do it through a series of commands on a Linux server like Backing up all of Harvard blogs would not be very hard as an HTML site Right, and you could have that resource and it could live and be hosted for like pennies a Month and like that could be a resource like it wouldn't be that hard to save this stuff to preserve it And I think that for me is why it's a little bit frustrating sometimes when I hear people say like You know, they'll talk about digital literacy and I'm looking at you Coffield They'll talk about digital literacy. They'll talk about all these liter which I completely I think it's awesome But I think in parallel with that also has to come a certain amount of responsibility for your content Yeah, and care for it And I think part of that is like managing your own site understanding how it happens And if we're willing to also offload that to Google or to blogger or to Twitter to do that stuff for us I mean sure it's up now, but at the point you made this point yesterday And they was right that the ads dry up and the revenue dry up it goes away. Yeah Google reader anyone I mean like this is not this is they're making money off those blogger posts That's why they're still around at the point. They don't they go to and there's no real reason to preserve it Let's think about for example, and you know This is the pirate libertarian idea that Coffield goes at me at four and it pisses me off But I like it because coffee was pretty good at pissing me off and I like that is the idea that you know Geo cities Geo cities actually like was deleted Whole sale by Yahoo. They bought it. They deleted it a couple of me What does he call them like libertarian pirates? But they're not but whatever one of them Jason Scott who now works at the internet archive Yeah, they were part of the single the archive team and they went out and they saved like a terabyte of sites on Geo cities that otherwise wouldn't be accessible In the same way and so I think like at the point at which our institutions and even individuals care Is at the point this stuff will be preserved and go on and thought be thoughtful about it But if we kind of default to let Google do it Google is more reliable because I was hacked once I Have some I mean I do have obvious issues with that because I don't think that there are any more guaranteed to save our work Then a few people working on the margins or someone who really cares about the collection of work They did over the time, you know, I mean I would put them up against a large institution like Google anytime Yeah, I think there's there's sort of an ethos and you know, and there's like There's multiple elements to it, right like, you know, are you using something that's open source or not like that would be one thing You know, and there's no like right or wrong like hard. Yes hard. No answer to that You know because there's trade-offs with every decision that you make, you know And so whether you use a third-party system or you host it in-house whether it's open source or it's proprietary Whether it's on your own domain or it's on a domain that's owned by someone else So an institutional subdomain or URL versus your own top-level domain all of these decisions You know sort of like factor in and you know, you could almost treat it like this scoring system for like how much you own your system because it's certainly possible like I think about like domain on one's own It's certainly possible to envision a space where it's like, okay You're getting domain on one's own, but you're just getting a subdomain of the institution and it's on you know Someone else's server and so like there may be like a lot of downsides there But it is your space and maybe you are using open source software And so there's a balance there versus like the neck beard in the basement that's running his own server and Built his own software not only is it open source, but he has the source code and built it himself Like, you know, like maybe he's like racking through the roof on the points and stuff You know, maybe one of the frustrations of the link rock people is like, you know You could have something exist on one and the neck beard like let his thing go away and made it disappear Maybe that was a conscious choice, but I think like all these things like get factored into it, right? So about like essentially how portable is your data and their decisions that I think people have to make But you know, I think it comes back to that that sense of care for your stuff And you know, maybe I decide yeah, you know, I really like if this dies I'm gonna just let it die or whatever. No, I really care about this And so I'm gonna make decisions. Yeah to make sure that it's preserved for the long term I agree and I think I agree with you that I'm a kind of a hoarder when it comes to the web Like I try and preserve as much as I possibly can and that goes back to personal problems with family photos That I don't have anything of me before a certain age. Yeah, do we should we talk? Yeah No pictures what happened mom mom what happened But I think we can kind of go on the legacy and the preservation thing lose what I think Harvard blogs did exemplify really well And I think VCUs rampages exemplifies really well is like this needs to be like an open Space to experiment on campus. Yeah, like academic blogging in that regard is not dead It's academic publishing systems or publishing platforms and rampages by far for me is the most exciting thing I've seen in a long time when it comes to that the work Tom over in his group are doing is just remarkable like Headless publishing. How do you use Wordpress's API to rethink how you publish? How do you do this for departments students alike? Faculty like there's a real spirit there of publishing platforms that I think is what Harvard blogs, you know tapped into early on in 2003, but it's not gone And I think a lot of times we get stuck with thinking that we only have a few options and you know LMS being a terrible one that won't go away I believe and I think like there are examples and there have been examples But the problem with academic publishing has always been that it was niche No real schools only a few took it on in real and supported it and funded it and made it enterprise Most just stuck with the LMS as they're publishing Solution right like that was their solution for publishing which I still think is a ridiculously horrible solution for publishing and then we have like groups like edge of cause pushing like next generation Digital learning environment, which is basically like a third-party vendor driven, you know dad a nightmare That has nothing to do with agency for students has nothing to do with ownership of content And it's just a really kind of extension of the same thing. So if academic publishing or blogging is dead I think that's a problem, and I don't think it's dead a I can point to examples like rampages But I think it's a problem because those spaces on campus where you give students and faculty their space to write and Publish and think and imagine and hopefully take their stuff with them and build their own web space somewhere Is a lost opportunity? Yeah, you know like we just kind of always default to the least common denominator of the LMS that's been going on for longer than social media and That seems to be the only like ridiculously bad Consistent with web publishing online that is somewhat universal across campus And I think that's I mean and to say you know that students should just go right on blogger instead is like Maybe one tiny tiny step up from just saying just published in the LMS You know like you're still ceding all your control to Google You're still like losing, you know that top-level domain action unless you're buying domains from Google or something like that You know you're still like not running in a system. That's open source that you can run You know separately from Google. So do you know it seems like a Even more like you have to deal with those ads and those posts and it's just like I don't know It's like you you wanted it to be a green space, right? And I think Brian Lam I come back to this term a lot because I really like it like for me the academic Publishing platforms where those green spaces of open possibility of play of hopefully like, you know Not the developmental, you know capitalist logic of the web That's trying to say how do we kind of convert views to data that we can sell like that was never the case for a lot of these I think most of these academic publishing platforms. We never cared about data We had some stats on how many people came but that was the extent of it Like it wasn't about turning things into metrics and then calling it something as insidious as personalized learning And then trying to turn that into a you know a new way of artificially, you know inseminating a new industry So it's just insane But then you made a good point where like we really need to Design the tools in a way that encourages people to think thoughtfully about this kind of thing Which is another aspect of it if you want folks to care about it They need to know that they have options to export that kind of thing some tools provide them some don't we need to be You know faculty need to be talking to their students about this it needs to be a focal point of it Not everybody publish everybody put everything out there, but also like hey Here's how you're gonna be able to put your stuff out there I want you to really care about this and this is how you can take it with you You know to me was another beauty a domain of one's own was that you really could get students set up with the space in a Way that it's like here's your space on the web and now here's how you can take it with you and continue to To use it so it's funny one of them when we did DS 106 in 2011 2012 Two weeks of that class was dedicated the last two weeks to archiving. Yeah, we had an archivist come in I remember Rick prelinger because we talked about it's in an archive said What is this DS 106 and I was a highlight in my career or Rick prelinger was like What is DS 106 and why are you talking about archiving because we were and I think we had students have their own domain Obviously, but then they all archived their work on you and the bugs So you may bugs did become an institutional archive for a lot of that work, too And whether or not that lives on we'll see but like the idea was not whether this stuff lasts forever It was the students understand that what they do in one domain can be reproduced whether it be RSS syndication Exporting in another space and understand that like they have control over this work You know and I would say and we've done some rough estimates Like maybe 30% of students at these various schools that we've worked with and at UNW actually keep the stuff and go on You know and that goes down over time depending on interest But there is a sense of ownership But even for the other 70% who don't the idea of understanding How that works that they can export that maybe they pull a backup of their stuff and that that does come back Yeah, that's important to me then like you're late. You're we're sights gone, right? That's student agency in action They're they're making the choice about whether or not to keep their their stuff online or not Whether they take it with them and having thoughtful Decisions about that and you know for a lot of students. I imagine it's like, okay but this is my my space to experiment while I'm in college and You know thinking back on it There's not a whole lot that I wanted to keep online that I did back in college But as an opportunity to use those tools to learn how to use it absolutely and I'll tell you the biggest hole in my blog Like my personal blog that I've kept is not you know the blog is not being hacked or anything. It's freaking YouTube Like most of my problems is like other people taking down content Maybe it's because of DMCA because a lot of stuff I do is films or whatever But like that's the hardest thing the holes are actually, you know The larger litigation around content on the web that I think Harvard blogs was linking to or at least alluding to and You know, I've never had that problem with you in the blogs And we rarely have that problem with the blog platforms We run for universities and domain of one's own like take down notices is not a concern I remember when I was in Vancouver in 2009 at open ed one of the things that Ken Friedman was doing the keynote and he runs WFMU the radio freeform radio station kind of you know, user-backed, you know completely free of ads and stuff in Jersey Hoboken and He said the thing that he found remarkable about the blog they ran and they ran one of the best blogs ever It's called WFM you beware of the blog is like on their site They would get all sorts of take down notices all sorts of but when they blogged it when they did it through the blog No one ever touched their stuff really like they never really got techno and they like really created Like they had one like the drummer's mother load of just where you can find all this music all over the web And he said they very rarely ran into those issues on the blog Suggesting that the blog was some kind of strange Haven now. This is in 2009, right? That's nine years ago Yeah, but I always felt like the blog was a haven and I think as an academic publishing Haven It still has a tremendous amount of value, you know I believe for both experimentation for students getting to think about what their work means for them and John Udell's final definition of what a blog is for me is always the best It's you know the ability for you to you know, consciously Regularly reflect reflect on your professional work. Yeah, or your personal work, but like it's a constant ongoing reflection that usually an individual does and it goes back to Al Mabeen's idea of like Usually that individual will care and preserve and take that stuff with them or not, right, right? And I think there's a larger question Because we do focus so much on the individual is where does that intersect with community, right? And how do we think about community space? Isn't you know a blog is by its definition often individually based or a group of a few people writing a group blog or whatever But I always thought the broader idea for a blogging platform was all the different voices on there that you can get to from different ways And I'd like to believe that institutions would value that and preserve that as part of their development Like when I think back on you know your blogs, which as a blogging platform has slowed down in its later years, right? Absolutely, I'm sure I haven't been there so I can't say for sure but the idea there is that UMW has a 11 or 12 year archive During a moment when publishing in higher ed was radically changing That other people could potentially look back on and it probably won't be us But someone will look back on and think about how people were thinking through Publishing changing in terms of how we teach how we learn how we preserve data And I think of that as interesting like I think of that as an interesting moment worth I would imagine institution preserving right now. I would hope so. Yeah, absolutely You know you think about it like you know those Conversations that you had if they had that they happened in the common stream of posts as opposed to in a private slap channel Yeah, you know the ability to go back and read those years later and for you know Other students to learn from what happened in courses previous It's funny because we were reflecting ontonella in mind We're reflecting not too long ago a few nights ago before I came And the thing came up is where were we at a certain point in time? And I was linked to the idea of oh wait I know a guy who wrote a blog raw blog that you have a blog.org Who was an art student who then became a laura student at Virginia and then went on and probably lived his life But he wrote a an awesome blog that we have an archive of still for like three years amazing blogger and he saw me when I was at A folk festival in Richmond Without me knowing it and took a picture of me and it was in 2008 and I had oh nine and I had a wordpress shirt on the black one I still have And he took that picture and I was trying to locate where I was at a particular time and date and share it with ontonella And I found it on his blog Yeah, and I knew like for me that's also that strange sense of it wasn't just an archive that was like people lists and like not it was like for me a living archive of my past And my relations with people And I think we forget that when we think that blogs Before social media kind of took over this function meaning twitter and facebook Was a series of connections between people In the network talking to each other and sharing and encouraging that doesn't happen nearly as much Outside those other networks And I think I would like to see that revived like I would like to spend more time in other people's comments rather than on twitter For a host of very good reasons. Absolutely. So and if anything, you know, some of these spaces Closing down might provide the opportunity to that the catalyst for people to really think more thoughtfully About that, you know, you know, twitter is its own sort of dumpster fire at the moment But you know as other services shut down it may be pushes people towards Hey, if I had more control over, you know, where I was publishing then and I could go there Rather than worrying about those third party services And I think in the interest of always being branding we should always be branding on real time today One of the things we talked about is So there is the problem of like institutions. Do they, you know, preserve and do they Manage that and like that's tricky because it changes from institution to institution It depends on the people there on the time But one of the things we've realized in the industry we kind of moved into which was hosting is that We like what we do in the niche we preserve for higher ed and institutions and academics because Places like Bluehost like What is it called the one that's really annoying the way in which they don't let the regent move their domain Oh network solutions network solutions like These folks have designed a web for a hosting that makes it difficult for you to get your stuff off That makes it difficult for you to understand how to transfer a domain like it need not be that difficult But oftentimes like for example, like hiding the ability to back up your stuff And charging you up for that like We find we come into a space that could use some clarification and what we spend most of our working day doing Is helping faculty and students understand how the process works so they can get their stuff So they can move it to us like I i'm particularly Sensitive to the idea of people managing and controlling and caring about their own work because those are the people We deal with every day. Yeah, and I think it's a community effort too There's a role for reclaim to play in it There's a role for the community at large to support each other and say like hey Yeah, I'm using this platform which I really like because of x y and z and that kind of thing You know really share the expertise and knowledge for folks so that nobody feels like they're stranded like oh god If I have to run my own stuff then this falls apart and I don't know what to do and that's a that's a communal effort And I wonder if that feeling is part of an alienation more broadly Yeah, because I mean I remember people saying I do not want to be asked tech questions on twitter And it's true like I don't want to be dm'd about reclaim on twitter I don't want to do that like I want to spend less time on twitter as I can now although the yeah these days I'll probably take a tech question over a political comment But the idea that was there is for me You can't Like you need a space where you go to and that's where it's for right like whether it's a community space Whether it's stack exchange whatever it is Um, there really is there needs to be more and more of this cultivation but that's like you know at the end of the day like it's people caring and investing and not Throwing up their arms and saying let someone else do it for me. Absolutely and You can't get away from that like the technology is still going to just turn through and there'll be new Stuff and other stuff will go away and you didn't take your own backup and you didn't manage your own stuff and care for it It will probably be gone. Yeah, I think sooner or later. I mean if there's Something I take as a mantra I just sort of embrace embrace the flux and flow of things right now with the hope that Smarter people than I are working on on those kinds of problems And you know not that reclaims not working on that problem as well And that I think that we all are and and that will get to a place where this stuff is easier more fluid more under More understandable to archive to preserve to keep online to publish on the web You know, there are a lot of different goals and aspects here and different people working on different problems Yeah, even just making hosting simpler. Sure, right like that whole idea. Yeah, absolutely I mean you're you continue to push the needle forward in different ways. So Thanks to him. Yeah, thanks for pushing the needle forward kicking it up to overdrive. Well, I think that'll do it Do you want to get off? I do I do What do we've been here an hour You know how this goes with me. I can't believe you do one with me and then you're upset. I talk so much I'm not upset. I love it. Let's do another one. Let's go. Let's go right into it A double feature That we're gonna talk about. Yeah, anything talking blogging blog about blogging All right. All right. Thanks everyone for tuning in. Bye. Bye later