 Today we're going to talk about author Nancy Rofi. Greg, why don't you tell us about the videos we're going to watch? Yeah, these videos are from a one-hour clip of her testimony in her murder trial. She murdered her husband and was found guilty, and is, had was given a life sentence with possibility of parole in 25 years. Why didn't you make an attempt to locate it and mark it for the police like you did the ghost gun? I stumbled across the ghost gun when I was packing. That's why I marked the box. In my mind, I had a list of things I thought the police might come back and ask me for, and I thought the ghost gun would be among them. Do you see the irony in not being able to locate that and that being the allegation that that was the murder weapon? You know, I see nothing ironic about this case at all. I see nothing happy about this case at all. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this is a really, really good example of something that we talk about occasionally, Scott, where we talk about Liar's Loop. And the reason I say that is because when you have a trigger moment where you have to prepare something on the fly, you get in a bind and you have to quickly respond. She didn't have to do that. First of all, she's an author. Secondly, she's had a lot of time to decompose. She's been in prison for a few months waiting for this trial. And that overly helpful nature is her spewing out information that she's prepared to give up. We'll see her change a few times in here. She chaff and redirects, but it's not just chaff and redirect. When a person chaffs and redirects, they're doing a dance. She's not dancing. She's prepared. That overly helpful is a clear red flag. And then when she starts, what's funny is she starts to add another detail at the very end there and doesn't inhale prep. And then she halts and shakes her head. I wonder what she was going to say there. When she says there's nothing happy, you see condemning. There's sides of her mouth pulled back. And she's got riveted eye contact. She's a storyteller by trade. And she's going to show us that storytelling strength through here. As she takes all of those deconflicts she's been working on in that liar's loop. When we say that I attack your story, you have to deconflict it. Most of the time we'll do conflict before you get face to face. And that's what she's doing. One other thing I'd say, she's got resting heartly face. I actually like that. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So though she may have organized, you know, having her mind what she wants to say and be prepared for this, still not super comfortable. We see six moments that I counted of bitterness or sourness in the mouth. That's when the sides kind of come back a little bit like that. I'm overemphasizing in her. It's a little more subtle than that. Now, is that the moment for her? Or is this a baseline character? Is there just a general malaise of bitterness and sourness? Or is it actually the moment is some stress and pressure for her? I'll let you decide on that. But six moments, that's quite a lot. Chase, what do you got on this one? Yeah, when she's saying I stumbled across the ghost gun and this other thing about in my mind, I had a list of the things the police would ask for. As a murder novel writer, the gun that's actually in question was apparently none of those things that she thought the police would be interested in. I think an eight year old would be able to know that the police might be interested in that gun if they were innocent. But throughout the she said she thought the ghost gun would be among those things. There's a pause here where there's a sharp inhale occurs. You see a sharp inhale right there. She's getting ready to say something here, but something in her mind is holding her back. And do you see the irony part? She deflects with a non-answer statement. There's word repetition and also phrase repetition. Now, I think it's strange she would think that there's a need to clarify that she's not seeing things that are happy. Why would that need to be clarified by any human being when it comes to a murder? So what is the psychology of a person who thinks that they need to tell you they aren't happy about it? What is being covered up there? So there may be an unconscious desire to conceal that feeling. And that came out unconsciously thinking that that was the right thing to say because that feeling might be there. Scott. All right, I think this is a great comparative example as we go along with see her go from not being really stressed to being stressed. And this is sort of a pre-stress area for right here. Because as when what happens is this she's created this story like Greg said she's de-conflicted it and by that we mean she's gone through and thought of all the things that could come up. What about this when somebody asks you about the lie that she's telling? What about this part of it? Well, here's what happened there. And she's thinking about all these things she can go ahead and have answers or stories ready for, prepared for as they begin questioning her. Now, as she goes through these and there are questions that she wasn't prepared for, the whole thing starts to wobble a little bit and starts to break down. And this is where we're seeing the changes begin in her body language, the stability of not only her story, but her body language breaks down. We see the movements increase as she starts scooting around, especially there at the end, she does that little scooch movement. And her patterns, we're going to see these patterns of behavior emerge. We're going to see things she does over and over and over. There are parts where we know she's telling the truth and parts where we know she's obviously not telling the truth, where she's being deceptive, where she's lying. And we'll be able to tell very easily when she's telling the truth compared to when she's not. And as we go through, we're all going to point those things out. But that's the main thing to watch. This is a great study. And seeing someone, once you know what all of her cues and tells are, and they're just about nine of them, once you see all those, you'll say, oh, I see that happening. So we can put this in the pile. It doesn't mean she's lying. It doesn't mean she's telling the truth. It just suggests that there's an issue there. And you put that little piece of information in your pile of, I think she's not telling the truth. I think she's being deceptive or I think she did this crime or whatever she's been accused of. Why didn't you make an attempt to locate it and mark it for the police like you did the ghost gun? I stumbled across the ghost gun when I was packing. That's why I marked the box. In my mind, I had a list of things I thought the police might come back and ask me for, and I thought the ghost gun would be among them. Do you see the irony in not being able to locate that and that being the allegation that that was the murder weapon? You know, I see nothing ironic about this case at all. I see nothing happy about this case at all. It is true that nobody actually told you that it was Dan that had been killed until Detective Posey, correct? Yes. And that was during that interview? Yes. But you stated that Karen called you before you went into that interview? Yes. Dan's mother, Karen? Yes. And that you told her that it was Dan and that he was dead? Yes. Based on the fact that you thought that Dan had been killed? It was more than think. But you hadn't been told? I had not been told, but I had not heard from him. All of his friends avoided looking at me. And the police officers knew who I was before I got there. And one police officer hugged me. This is not good news I'm going to hear. What if you were wrong? Then I would have called Karen and said happy days. I was wrong. And Karen and I would have celebrated and we would have laughed and we would have had family jokes about this for 20 years and it would have been much, much better than it turned out. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, look, a couple of areas of potential deception here and I'll let you go back and take a look at where they are. But look out for vocal clicks. That's when this happens. There's one right at the start and there's one maybe, let's just say around halfway through, you'll find them. And then we get something very different happening with her eyes at the same time. The first time with that vocal click, we get an eye block. She just closes her eyes. Again, none of that means that somebody is lying or being deceptive, but it's out of baseline of what we saw in the earlier video where, you know, she's comfortable and here she's deviated from that baseline. Vocal click about halfway through and then her eyes deviate up and I think to her left, I think. Now, I'm not going to go into what that might mean in terms of the thought process. Simply that it's enough difference from how her eyes normally are that I would go, well, there's something definitely going on here, which is out of the ordinary, out of the norm. So two points there. One thing, one question that I have that I'd like answered, what's the headphones about? I dream and imagine that she's listening to Fleetwood Mac at this point. I don't know why Fleetwood Mac. I'm just picking Fleetwood Mac. I think it'd be nice to be listening to Fleetwood Mac at this point. She seems to be a kind of a Fleetwood Mac kind of lady. But anyway, if anybody can tell me why she's got those headphones in, I'd like to know. Scott, what have you got on this one? All right, maybe it's hard to hear from because they're so far apart, they've plugged her in to hear what's happening. That's the only thing I can figure out. No, she's hard of hearing. She is hard of hearing. So they gave her that early to make sure she could hear. Sorry. Oh, OK. OK, great. Great, great. Well, I think this is a great example of a prepared answer with a plethora of extra information that has nothing to do with what's going on. It does, but it doesn't. It's like when somebody tells you a ghost story. And when I hear ghost stories, there are some I hear. And I go, I really believe they saw something. Or I'm not saying I believe in ghosts. I'm just saying something happened to that person. Then you have that person who sets up the entire scene. They go through and tell you step by step. And they set up where things were in the room and those kind of things. The person who actually did experience something, in my opinion, they come in and go, dude, I saw a ghost going to talk about that. We're standing right here and this thing walks out of the closet. They don't go through, oh, we walked, we were outside. And we walked in and give you a reason they're there. She's adding all these qualifiers to her answer. This is one of the things that lets us know or suggest that something's up here. Something's not right about what she's doing. As it goes through, we see her blink rate increase a little bit. Her head movements and her head gesturing increase a little bit. No real big illustrators or anything up till now. Her volume is strong and becomes stronger. She goes along. She uses a lot of the one-word answers when she knows the answers yes or no or whatever. She's boom, boom, does those. That's fine. That's squiggling her seat at the end that, in my opinion, would be she's saying, I'm finished and there it is. There's what I prepared. There's my story. The only thing she doesn't say is, and I'm sticking to it. She tries to. But she changes as she goes along. And we'll talk about that in a little bit. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, these first three questions are showing us something unusual here. In question one, was she would not have to cognitively even process? We're seeing artificial cognitive processing, which I made that term up. This is where she's moving her eyes to access a memory while pausing and hesitating, which is inappropriate for this question. But she's learned this behavior is a time buying device. So she may throw it in at inappropriate times because she's not sure she's sure that it buys time, but not how. In question two and three, we're seeing something I call immediate mouth closure. And this is where she shuts her mouth and her lips close right after her answer. This does not mean deception per se, but when it's a deviation from baseline this far, it's a lot more likely to indicate deception. But there's one other time you're likely to see a spike in this behavior. And this is when we're being confronted or questioned by an adversarial or maybe a confrontational person. We're more likely to see this lip closing behavior. So keep that in mind. There's some context to this. And there's this thing of I would have called Kelly and said, oh, happy days. I was wrong. Her head is now vacillating between shaking and nodding. And this is an incongruence signal that the brain isn't fully sure how to display a behavior. The emphasis here is on the word display. I didn't use the word express and emotion or convey a story. This is a conscious display and the brain is under stress here and this is called cognitive load. How much stress is on the brain? And the things that are adding to this here and the stress, the perception, the perception management, stress, deception, perception management, an adversarial interview, the presence of cameras, managing nonverbal expressions. Her cognitive load is why we're seeing her body disagreeing with itself. It doesn't mean her cognitive load is excusing her deception signals, but we're seeing a person under a high degree of cognitive load aside from also having to be deceptive. She wanted to point that out. That's all I got. And I was just waiting on you, Greg, go ahead. Yeah, so let's walk through a few things. We are all seeing a lot of the same things. Number one, yes. Pay attention to the way she says yes. Yes, yes. Sometimes she'll say yes. Yes is a tool for her. It's not a word, it's a tool. It's a delaying technique. It's a way for her to say, I'm gonna accept that. No, I don't accept this. Pay attention to her out here. That's number one. Number two, when she breaks eye contact, I would usually say yes. She might be trying to think, but she isn't because when we find her later going to retrieve data, it's the opposite side of her head. This is an avoidance eye access, exactly what you said, Chase. She's getting away from it, so she darts this way. I don't think there's any thought process at all. I think it's a break. If you really want to pay attention, Mark, I think when he starts to put her on notice with this question is when I hear that first pseudo click, it's hard to hear, but she does it for sure. There's an interesting couple of things going on here. That head bobble, I said in my notes, you guys know who Doris Roberts is, famous actor. She looks like a bobblehead of Doris Roberts sitting there bobbling her head around. And it'll get more pronounced as she gets less and less certain. It's really powerful to watch. She's got disdain to disapprove on the side of her mouth and some outright contempt. That left lip is almost quivering. She's so contemptuous to him when he's asking that one question. I think here's the problem. There's a lot of stuff you can prepare for when you're de-conflicting. What person sits around in their house and comes up with an excuse for why they told the mother her son is dead? How could you come up with that? Okay. Hey, I think something's wrong. Your son may be injured. Something's wrong. That, okay, I got it. Your son is dead. How do you come back from that? There's not a place you go from that. So no matter how much de-conflicting she's had, when she's sitting there, we see that head bobble because I think to your point, Chase, there's no rational way she can de-conflicting that. All the time she's rolling things around in her head and then she does that elevated blink rate right after the question and then she does that chained elephant in the chair. The good thing is, as we age, we get less and less active. We use our shoulders less and less so it gets easier for people to hide things. However, she's not hiding because she shuffles around in the chair and gets comfortable. It is true that nobody actually told you that it was Dan that had been killed until Detective Posey, correct? Yes. Okay. And that was during that interview? Yes. But you stated that Karen called you before you went into that interview? Yes. Dan's mother, Karen. Yes. And that you told her that it was Dan and that he was dead? Yes. Based on the fact that you thought that Dan had been killed? It was more than think. But you hadn't been told? I had not been told but I had not heard from him. All of his friends avoided looking at me and the police officers knew who I was before I got there and one police officer hugged me. This is not good news I'm gonna hear. What if you were wrong? Then I would have called Karen and said happy days. I was wrong and Karen and I would have celebrated and we would have laughed and we would have had family jokes about this for 20 years and it would have been much, much better than it turned out. Did you literally just say that was for the police's benefit? That was literally what I said. I marked the box for the police's benefit so that I could find it again when the police came back. For what? Well, I sort of thought that if the police didn't find something they would wanna come back and re-interview and I would be able to show them things. I thought the fact that all they had was Dan's phone and not a computer from us might not, they may have reached a dead end and said Mrs. Brophy, is there anything you can give us that would help? Any electronic equipment, anything else? So I was kind of in my mind making a list. At that point, silly me, since I believed I didn't kill my husband I didn't think I was with a serious suspect. Despite you telling people that you were- I told people I was a suspect because it's always the wife. All right, Chase, what do you got? This is gonna be a good one. I think one thing in here, she almost accidentally calls herself a witness instead of a suspect, which I think is weird but there's an even bigger one here. And this is the phrase, I believed I didn't kill my husband. I believed it. It's not that it's a fact, it's just a belief that she has. And right here, there's a single shoulder shrug just before this. There's a strong increase in her loss of fluency here. There are cognitive loads up because there's some deception going on, most likely. And you can see this with the sudden shift in posture and hand hiding and an eyebrow raise for special approval for this thing right here. There's just a ton of stuff in here. I'm sure you guys will unpack. Scott? All right, now we're starting to see things change a little bit. We're seeing bigger illustrators. We're seeing their hands come up and using those as illustrators the way your brain emphasizes specific words or phrases. And that's what we're talking about when we all say illustrators. And this is because she's confident and prepared for this. She's thought about this question. I'm sure her attorney brought this question up and so she's ready for it. She's got her answer and so she delivers it. Now, she's expecting the police to come back. That's why she's ready for this because she knows they'll be back because she knows there's nobody else out there that killed this guy because it was her. So she's ready for that. And when she's deconflicting this, he starts asking other questions that she's not prepared for just like he did in the other ones. And there's an imbalance with her body language at this point because her indignance and her body language aren't saying the same thing. Her being indignant and all, her head should come forward with her eyebrows and it's like this instead of up and back like this that she's been indignant. That suggests more arrogance than indignance for this where it should be different. So that imbalance there lets us know that she's accidentally stepped in something and she's trying to get out of it and to have a little problem getting away. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so look, I mean, if we didn't know that she'd killed her husband, I mean, or at least, you know, she'd been convicted of that. The first two videos, you'd probably be kind of interested in but by the time it comes to this third video, you are kind of, oh, well, yeah, clearly because there is such a mass of signals that suggest deception and the questioning at that point has got more incisive. So look, there are a number of pronounced single shoulder shrugs. However, just to your point Chase, there is one that comes, it's actually a little bit smaller than the other pronounced ones, along with a tongue jut as well, which we often put alongside the idea of kind of pushing food out of your mouth. Something is distasteful. Something isn't good about what's going on. There's an adaptor there stroking the back of a hand that comes at the same time. The head springs back at that point. There's lip compression as well and a loss of fluency in that the words and the ideas become more staccato. It's not fluid anymore. And all of this around, I didn't think I was a serious suspect. So clearly we'd put alongside that, yeah, you did think you were a very serious suspect. In fact, you were the only suspect because you know you did this. Chase, what do you got on this one? Greg, what do you got? Oh, Hank, yes. Perfect, yeah. Greg, where you go? Yeah, so guys, you cover most everything I have. And Chase, I was right on with you, the same things. The single biggest shoulder shrug I may have ever seen in all these shows we've done was when she was saying that after that, so I could find it again. However, I don't think she stumbled into this. I think she used a very artful tool. She used a provocative statement saying, I labeled the boxes so I could find them later for the police hoping that he would step into her iterative storytelling. Look, guys, I would say if you're a lawyer and you're trying to decide whether to put your person on the stand or not and you're not sure, call us. This is not a good move because this is one hour. All of this video we're gonna show you came out of one hour. She's on the stand for many hours. What she does is she starts to iteratively in storytell and she's selling the hell out of what she's written in this manuscript that she plans to talk about this. So she's comfortable until a couple of things start to fall away. And then the other one I love, Chase, is that when she says, I believed I was not, didn't kill my husband, I believed. Then there's a lot of movement, stammering as she starts to say that. And then she goes, a serious suspect. That's her brain playing squirrel in a road moving around. But because she's older, she doesn't move as much. She doesn't stammer quite as rapidly. She doesn't move quite as much as a younger person might. And then at the very end, there's a silent mouth thing again. She goes, somebody who can read lips, if you could tell what she's saying, please write it in the comments. Because she does it several times in here. I think it's for the good of counsel, not sure. But she also has hearing issues, so don't know. But yeah, this is a really starting to come apart story. And if you felt like you had a good candidate to put on the stand, you don't know what you're doing. Call us. That's it. Did you literally just say that was for the police's benefit? That was literally what I said. I marked the box for the police's benefit so that I could find it again when the police came back. Well, I sort of thought that if the police didn't find something, they would want to come back and re-interview, and I would be able to show them things. I thought the fact that all they had was stand phoned and not a computer from us might not, they may have breached a dead end and said, Mrs. Brophy, is there anything you can give us that would help? Any electronic equipment, anything else? So I was kind of in my mind making a list. At that point, selling me, since I believed I didn't kill my husband, I didn't think I was with a serious suspect. Despite you telling people that you were. I told people I was the suspect because it's always the wife. Do you think you have relevant evidence to a murder investigation and you don't think you should mention it to the police? How is a gun kit, even though I marked it, how is a gun kit relative evidence? I'm asking you. I'm asking you because I don't think it is because it's never been put together. Then why would you mark it for the police? Because I figured the police would come back and want to know. What else did you think was relevant to the police investigation that you marked and did not share with them? I thought they would eventually want to know about the computers. They would eventually want to go through the computers and see what they could find, if anything, that would help them. And did you give them a computer that belonged to Dan? No, we had a computer. They never asked for it. But in my mind, I knew they would eventually, if they didn't solve the case by somebody coming in and confessing, they would eventually come back and say, can we see your computer? My computers weren't packed because I thought they were relevant to the police if the police wanted to go in that direction. Well, that's not exactly true, right? I mean, you had a computer in storage. No, I had a computer in a box in one room and a computer by the bed in another room. That's not in storage. Right, one in a box in your room. What about the one that was in the storage unit? There was not a computer in this room. So there wasn't a laptop in the storage unit? There was not. Okay. But your testimony, what your guy's testimony was, they found the computer in a bedroom and they found the computer in a box in the other, in what had been the office. And you would agree then that the stuff that was found on the computer that has been shown here in court was on the computer that was packed away in a box. I think that's how they did it, but it was the two computers. Why did you get a new computer in March of 2018? When you opened the computer, the old computer, you can't read the screen because it's become lines across it. So you did all your research of all these guns on one computer, then packed that away and put it in a box in the closet and then you got a new computer, is that right? I get a new computer every year. I take a computer with me when I go out to the fields, I beat a computer up. I buy a fairly inexpensive computer because I know I'm replacing it the next year. All right, I'll go first on this one. Things are starting to heat up a little bit for her. And the attorney's question is presented as an attack in her view anyway. That's why we see that little, where she's kind of shuts up and you can see her pop up during that. Because when she says the gun kit wasn't evidence, oops, sorry, that's my phone. Her movements that we see them increase from everywhere, from her head to her torso to her hands, everything's moving at this point. And her seat adjustments and are getting a little bit more common, I guess you'd say as to what she's doing, as far as her baseline goes, becoming what was before not a part of her baseline. Now she gets stressed, that is a part of her baseline. Earlier we talked about how we can see the differences when she's telling the truth and when she's being deceptive. When she's telling the truth, her answers are really short. And her words aren't very long. Like we talked about earlier one word, two or three words here and there. And when she's not being honest, when she's being deceptive, we get these really long sentences, these really long and there's a little comma and and she'll add stuff. The answers just get filled with these qualifiers and things to help her story sound more believable. Then she locks down after all that, she locks down and her voice cadence and her tone changes, everything starts to change there. And then her baseline suggests, I've just gone over that part. So the fading facts part is when she says, there was no computer in the storage unit. When she says that it starts getting quieter. Earlier, she connects with her attorney. She turns her head and her eyes, she knits around, she looks at her attorney like that. Like she's trying to see what her attorney is either saying, mouthing to her or is signaling to her because I know what that looks like and she does that and looks and you can tell she's trying to see what's happening over there. So that's where all of her attention goes. And the second time she connects with him, she says, in my watt, it goes in my watt. That's what she's doing at that point because I asked somebody who's pretty good at lip reading and I said, what does this look like to you? And they said, it looks like she's saying in my watt. So if you'll look at that, it looks like she's saying in my watt. So he is telling her again, where they found another computer or they found one of the computers she didn't bring up or something related with that. I can't, of course I don't know because I don't know what he's thinking or she's thinking but she says in my watt. So I think she's against the wall and she starts swinging and that's why she's getting so stressed. Greg, what do you got? You want good indicator that she's against the wall. She starts off doing something I always refer to as sacred space. What I mean by that is I create a barrier, give myself some space and then I adapt. And guys, when we talk about adapters, a barrier is simply putting something either figurative or real between the two of us. Then a barrier, I mean an adapter is a way to release nervous energy. More importantly, in all my time of dealing with prisoners, I would tell you that what we do is whatever we always have done in the past that makes us feel more comfortable where there's playing with our nails or twirling hair, tugging at your ear. All of those things are make known from the unknowns. If I lock you in a cell and you do that, there's some familiarity there. And she's doing that. She's got her body crossed and she's either massaging or gripping or opposite arm. That's a great indicator of something's up and a respirations up. Watch the scarf. There's uncertainty with you, Scott. She had uncertainty interfaces. She's looking for that answer. When she said, how is the gun kit relative evidence? She's provoking him to come back at her. She's probably got something prepared to say, no, it was this and this and this. So she's ready for it. I don't think there's a whole lot other than that in that back and forth with counsel. Again, if you are an attorney and you put her on the stand, you're not thinking about what's possible. Because she's de-conflicted to the point she's going to spew information at every turn, that creates the opportunity for her to ramble. He asked a great question. What else did you mark? But she doesn't give a great answer. She rambles on about computers. She draws her head away twice in this interview, draws her head away in avoidance, that keeps eye contact, that kind of pulling taffy move. Point those out. Tell me what she's doing in those down in the notes. And I'm glad you had a liberty to look at this because that's one of the places I was looking. When she gets in a bind and she's up against the wall, she is a master of chaff and redirect. Because she's got storyline hooks. People who write stories have hooks that are old maxims for them to be able to throw out and redirect and go around you. Chase, what do you got? I think if I was the prosecutor here, I would start by reading her books and see every mistake the police made and how the bad guy was able to evade the police. I bet there's a trend. I have not read her books. I'm willing to bet that there's a trend to that. That's just something I was randomly thinking about there. But in this video, let's use the old classic reasonable person standard on this one. A reasonable person who knows they didn't commit a murder would not refer to things in their house as evidence that the police would be interested in, maybe. And the police being interested in weapons that were not involved in the crime is something a guilty person might assume. They might be interested in this weapon, but definitely not that other one. So I think this gesture here can show us something for training purposes. When she demonstrates opening the computer to show the lines across the screen, there's something unusual about her baseline. She uses body narration all the time, which is when we illustrate a story, like I'm talking about a giant building, my hands go up, I'm talking about putting something together and I do this. She does that all the time. But when she does this, it's in a way as if she's opening the computer toward the prosecutor and she even holds the screen up for him so that he can see the lines across the computer. I don't see this often and I think it's truthful that she did at one point have a computer that had these lines on it. So in the future, with her very vividly illustrating these things with her body, we might be able to look for situations where illustrations should be there and they aren't. And you'll see that in a couple of videos and I'm not gonna tell you where it is. I wanna see if you can spot it. Leave it in the comments and we'll check it out. Mark? Yeah, so yeah, we have had some illustrators and it's great when you watch this on video because there is one thing that remains relatively constant in this video which is how big the frame is. And so we can tell how her illustrators might get small or get amplified. Now in this situation here, her illustrators start going right out of frame. So you'd know, like for me, because I do illustrate quite a bit, you've probably noticed that about me, but because I can see an image of myself, I'm able to keep them pretty much in the frame. This one naturally goes out because that's how I set up my camera that the gesture will pop in and out, but this one really should never leave the frame. So if ever I start leaving the frame with my gestures, you'd kind of go, oh, Mark's pretty much lost control of being able to monitor himself right now. Something is very, very different. Now she doesn't know her frame, but we do and so we do know when she points out and goes out of frame, something has very much changed for her. She's really trying to overemphasize for us. She's really protesting a little bit too much, I would say, about the computer being in a box over there and not hidden evidence of any sort. Then we get, oh, then we get these gestures of a single finger and then a thumb as well, I think a finger and a thumb. Again, she does gesture quite a bit, but she's usually fairly locked down. We get that and then we get this demonstration of the computer as well. It really feels like she wants us to buy into all of this. So this would be an area where I'd want to know more about. I'm intrigued. Like, what is it about? I don't know nothing about this case, but this would be where I would be really interested. Why do you really want me to believe all this stuff about computers being where they should be, but at a distance and packed away and computers being broken? Like, why is that so important? Why do you need to demonstrate that in such a big way that you would break your usual baseline? Do you think you have relevant evidence to a murder investigation and you don't think you should mention it to the police? How is a gun kit? Even though I marked it, how is a gun kit relative evidence? I'm asking you. I'm asking you because I don't think it is because it's never been put together. Then why would you mark it for the police? Because I figured the police would come back and want to know. What else did you think was relevant to the police investigation that you marked and did not share with them? I thought they would eventually want to know about the computers. Everything thought they would eventually want to go through the computers and see what they could find, if anything, that would help them. And did you give them a computer that belonged to Dan? No, we had a computer. They never asked for it, but in my mind I knew they would eventually, if they didn't solve the case by somebody coming in and confessing, they would eventually come back and say, can we see your computer? My computers weren't packed because I thought they were relevant to the police if the police wanted to go in that direction. Well, that's not exactly true, right? I mean, you had a computer in storage. No, I had a computer in a box in one room and a computer by the bed in another room. That's not in storage. Right, one in a box in your room. What about the one that was in the storage unit? There was not a computer in the storage unit. So there wasn't a laptop in the storage unit? There was not. Okay. But your testimony, what your guy's testimony was, they found the computer in a bedroom and they found the computer in a box in what had been the office. And you would agree then that the stuff that was found on the computer that has been shown here in court was on the computer that was packed away in a box? I think that's why they did it, but it was the two computers. Why did you get a new computer in March of 2018? When you opened the computer, the old computer, you can't read the screen because it's become blinds across it. So you did all your research of all these guns on one computer, then packed that away and put it in a box in the closet and then you got a new computer, is that right? I get into computer every year. I take a computer with me when I go out to the fields, I beat a computer up. I buy a fairly inexpensive computer because I know I'm replacing it the next year. And you would agree that you also never told the police about the slime barrel that you purchased on eBay? Mr. Overstreet, when I talked to the police, when I talked to the police in June, they asked me specific questions. My husband had just died. The fact that I was coherent at all is a miracle. The fact that they never came back to me after that for a follow-up interview, I think I thought was shocking. I thought this was on the police, this wasn't on me. The police said, we're handling this. You just go home and rest. You go home and take it one day at a time. And they never contacted me again, except for the things that they asked me for, which was stand schedule, I got that to them and I was having trouble with their email, but I did what I was asked to do. Are you declining to answer my question? Perhaps not, what was your question? That was a lengthy answer for not remembering my question. Well, I go off on tangents. So I asked you, is it true that you did not tell the police about the slime barrel? It is true, I did not tell the police about the slime barrel. The slime barrel that would fit perfectly on the gun show gun that you purchased. The slime barrel that I was using for research for my writing, I did not tell them about that. You didn't answer that question? I did, I said, I did not tell them. Would you agree that it fit on the gun that you bought from the gun? It was the same thing, it could have been interchanged, yes. All right, Chase, what do you got? Let's just take a quick walk together, shall we? Through everything that goes on here and just her response to this question. We have hesitancy, a use of the interviewer's name, which is out of baseline. It's not like she says that all the time. There's phrase repetition. There's severity softening. There's died instead of killed or murdered. There's shifting the topic of questionable behavior to the police and there's questionable behavior to the police. There's projecting responsibility to the police. Once, and then it happens again, there's a partial resume statement. There's a large body movement for adaptation or self soothing behavior right after the exchange. And if you were to just use the behavioral table of elements to score this, Mark, no, that's your favorite, this scores a 36. And just for reference, an 11 or higher is a high likelihood of deception stress. So we have a 36 here, pretty big, Greg. Yeah, it's because it's prepared. I think you can't miss that this is prepared. This is one of her trip wire things. If I come in and I'm prepared for a given thing and I've got a packet of information I need to spill out, then it comes across as not genuine. It just, anybody can see that it's not genuine. You don't need to be us to see this is not genuine. She changes cadence. She goes away from saying things in this rapid succession she's done. She goes, mister, and you're right, gets to be very polite and overly helpful. Again, best indicator for me when somebody's overly helpful and polite and they're in a bind, something's up. She goes causing by his name and then she goes into this whole pitiful story about what happened to her. There's a pause in her speech and in her movement. And then there are repeated words when she says, I talked to the police, she's heating up. This is packaged. All that stuff we talked about in the beginning about de-conflicted data. This is de-conflicted data she sat on. The problem with de-conflicting is you can only de-conflict what you know is coming. So all the elements of the story she can de-conflict. What she can't de-conflict is the attorney asking a pointed question and poking her. And that's when you see it start to heat up. She says, never contacted me again talking about the police. And then she cadence shifts, she shuffles and corrects the record in mid-sentence. All those canned elements are her friend. And this is easier for her than it would be an average person in part because she's slower moving in part because of the way she moves and talks. Then when he says, you're gonna answer my question, you're trying to avoid my question, her eyes narrow. She's frustrated with them over that. And she says, perhaps not. She talks so far down the path, she lost herself is the problem. So then she has to come back and try to answer it. And she conditions that slide and barrel question to avoid agreeing with him about the incriminating characterization of it. Because yes, in fact, that is the element of the entire story. If you're writing a criminal story about killing somebody and doing away with the barrel and slide, you would know that's the evidence piece that matters. And as she gets there and she starts to try to get away from it, you call it losing fluency, Chase. I call it their brain is like a squirrel in the road and they're trying to decide what's the next word. That's why, because they're just batting around. She can't come up with the next word, which is not like her because she is a storyteller. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, Chase, not surprised that it scored so highly. Here is the one thing in my mind that instantly shouts out that she is in trouble. And though she may have prepared this, just because you prepared it doesn't make it true. And therefore doesn't mean that you're not gonna go under stress and pressure because your mind knows that you're making stuff up and you're lying and there is a risk to that. And so unless you're the type of personality that doesn't see a risk at all or the risk is low compared to most of us, you're still going to feel that stress and pressure. Here's what happens. We see her elevate her gesture and then it collapses and we hear the noise of the collapse. Now, when I'm working with clients, I get them to take off jewelry, stuff like that, cause I know the moment they get under stress and pressure, they'll start raising gestures and then collapsing and raising and collapsing and raising and collapsing. And if you're in a TV studio and you're at a news desk, the mics pick that up and human beings on the other side, they don't know that that's what they get disturbed by but they get disturbed by all this noise happening. So before a client goes into a studio, everything comes off, even buttons in some cases will take those off. So again, they're not rattling on the desk. Now, we're going to see that a little bit later on as well where she makes even more noise around this. So look out for that as a tell, not only in her but in others that you're dealing with. Are they making a lot of noise because their gestures are becoming buoyant and then collapsing and buoyant and then collapsing? Scott, what you got on this one? All right. I think this is a great example of Chaff and Redirect because she chaffs and redirects so hard, she forgets what the question was. She came to tell what the question was. She goes, what? And then look at this and starts going over here and goes over so far, she's totally lost it. She's just out of her element at that point. And this is bad for her because even though she was ready for this, like Greg was saying, she was ready for the initial engagement. She wasn't ready for those shots to come after that. So she hasn't de-complicated for those. So it's just, it's sort of turned on her. The fight is starting at this point for her. Her cadence starts speeding up a little bit and her tone and cadence of her voice are still strong. Everything's still going well, but now she's in fighting mode. So you can tell from her respiration, the way she looks, the way she sounds, she's starting to panic because she just stepped in it one more time. All right, good. Okay, Greg, I'll give you that. That was very stoic of you. And you would agree that you also never told the police about the slime barrel that you purchased on eBay. Mr. Overstreet, when I talked to the police, when I talked to the police in June, they asked me specific questions. My husband had just died. The fact that I was coherent at all is a miracle. The fact that they never came back to me after that for a follow-up interview, I think I thought was shocking. You know, I thought this was on the police. This wasn't on me. The police said, we're handling this. You just go home and rest. You know, you go home and take it one day at a time. You know, and they never contacted me again, except for the things that they asked me for, which was stand schedule, I got that to them and I was having trouble with their email, but I did what I was asked to do. Are you declining to answer my question? Perhaps not. What was your question? That was a lengthy answer for not remembering my question. Well, I go off on tangents. So I ask you, is it true that you did not tell the police about the slide and barrel? It is true. I did not tell the police about the slide and barrel. The slide and barrel that would fit perfectly on the gun show gun that you purchased. The slide and barrel that I was using for research for my writing, I did not tell them about that. You can answer that question. I did. I said, I did not tell them. Would you agree that it fit on the gun that you bought from the gun? It was the same thing, it could have been interchanged, yes. You just found out your husband died and it's very hard to remember everything that you talked about in there. But you do recall that you didn't have any trouble telling them about the firearm that you had purchased at the gun show, correct? In fact, you told them the whole story about why and how you purchased the gun. Detective Merrill said, does Dan have any guns? Dan owned half a block. I told him about the full block. And I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, although I thought listening to that sentence, it came out stoddy, which wasn't really the way I wanted it to come out. But what I will tell you is he asked me, I answered him the best way I knew how. Why don't you just say, yes, we have a gun. I was trying to be helpful to the police at this point so they would know what was going on. You know, at this point, I thought they were gonna find my husband's killer. I didn't think they were gonna say, let's look at the one person who didn't kill him. But instead of just answering, yes, we have a gun and it's at home, you actually made sure to give them a full story as to how and why you purchased that gun. Mr. Overstreet, you're having trouble keeping me quiet now because I tell stories as I'm talking to you. Do you think I was less than that with the police when I'm upset? This is how I talk. I tell full stories to illustrate what I'm saying. Even though you were just informed of your husband's murder. Well, apparently it didn't make me quieter. It just made me more upset. Right. She looks like she's about two minutes away from saying, you've always get all your stuff and you get out of here right now. Everybody go home. Oh, yeah. Right. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I think I think I can't quite tell the eye line. But I think there's some targeting of threat there. I think there's some maybe turning of pages by the by the lawyer and she clocks that and she's wondering what's in that. What's he got there? I think though I could have the long wrong eye line on this, but it for me looks like she's seeing a threat in in what he has in front of him. She says, you know, and there I think we see Jupiter's delight, which is where side of the mouth turns up. There's a let's say it's a little bit like a rye smile. Then then it also shifts a little bit later into what seems to be a full smile and then shading of the whole face. The eyes go go down. But certainly from my point of view, Jupiter's delight on the story that she is spinning on this one. So I'm open to to other views on this. Greg, what you got on that? Yeah, I think it may be sarcasm mixed with that because I think she is she's from Texas. You know, there's a whole lot of Southern woman going on here. And if you're raised by Southern women, you know, they can be very sarcastic and very dry when they lash out at you. So it could be that. But this one is interesting because it agitates her to the point that she does an entire seat correction. That's a big deal. That's the biggest movement we've seen from her so far. And then she goes into that overly helpful description. Again, if you want to know that she's going to go into overly helpful, her cadence, the space between her words gets much longer. She's going boom, boom, boom, boom instead of boom, boom, boom, boom. Interesting. Her mouth starts moving before vocal cords engage again. I don't know what that's all about with her. Don't don't get it. But maybe that's just how she's wired. But she goes into this logical to her explanation. She goes to a slow cadence. She goes detective, Meryl said, then she goes to internal voice. Meaning she's looking down to her left. We typically associate that with having conversation with self and understanding exactly what we should say next, navigating minefields, that kind of thing. And she starts to characterize why she was deceptive about that gun. And look, there's no real reason. And I'm not sure if that sarcasm or contempt or a duper delight or all of it mixed together, Mark, because this is all that's all that's going on in this head. And then she gets real blink rate increase followed by some amusement as she characterizes this. But she says the full story. She's talking about telling a full story. She doesn't tell full stories. Guys, all the time when we talked in the past about people being iterative storytellers, this is the poster child for iterative storytellers. She throws out a piece for you to bite, and then she fills in the details so that she can redirect the entire conversation by iterative storytelling. Scott, what do you got? All right, this is a perfect example of what I call visceral protective reaction. Because as soon as he brings up gun, she hits her, her eyes wide a little bit, and she scoots up and she protects herself. She pulls her arms in front of her. This she could be, this is a barrier and it's an adapter at the same time. And this clicks her into freeze fighter flight, I think just a almost a hint of that we can see on her face. Now she's up and she's swinging haymakers, man. She's tried her best because now she's in a big, she's in, this is the rough part of it. This is where she's in there, where she's once again in a place where she, she had de-conflicted, but she didn't have everything perfect. She didn't go to the ends of it. She's got like you do in a book and doing a story. She got the big points. She got the major bullet points for it, but she didn't get the details on it. So when he keeps coming back, she's having to dodge and then she swings real big and he goes back like that and just tags her real good. I think the mouth grooming and that seat adjustment, nozzle adapters we're seeing while he's talking, I think those let us know that she's angry for what all that looks like because it's, I think she's getting heated up at this point. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I totally agree. One of the biggest mistakes people make to your point, Scott. Is they rehearse monologues. And they're so comfortable with a monologue that they are confident when they walk in and they haven't done any rehearsal with someone who's adversarial. You have to do adversarial rehearsal. And that's the thing. They think, oh, if I just rehearse these monologues, I'm gonna be okay. But I developed a dispatch call screening sheet for 911 operators, which is free all over the internet. It's on my social media and all that stuff. But I made this for police, which you can download anywhere. There's 11 things on there that you can screen when somebody's initially interviewed by police or when they make a 911 phone call to determine if they might be the guilty party. In this video, she hit five out of the 11 just from her own recall of the conversation with the detective. That's a big deal. Here they are, the five. It's a focus of conversation on the facts instead of getting help. Number two, information in the detail level was high, not low or average. So it's a high detail in unusual places. Number three, the facts provided were more than necessary instead of the average amount. Four is repetition. She repeats phrases and questions instead of providing a lot of answers. And finally, when it comes to answers, she's hesitant instead of providing immediate and direct answers. And that's exactly what we're seeing here. And so she would score high even on her own description of her conversation with the cops. You just found out your husband died and it's very hard to remember everything that you talked about in there. But you do recall that you didn't have any trouble telling them about the firearm that you had purchased at the gun show, correct? In fact, you told them the whole story about why and how you purchased the gun. Detective Meryl said, does Dan have any guns? Dan owned half a block. I told him about the full block. And I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, although I thought listening to that sentence it came out stoddy, which wasn't really the way I wanted it to come out. But what I will tell you is he asked me, I answered him the best way I knew how. Why don't you just say, yes, we have a gun? I was trying to be helpful to the police at this point so they would know what was going on. At this point, I thought they were going to find my husband's killer. And I didn't think they were going to say, let's look at the one person who didn't kill him. But instead of just answering, yes, we have a gun and it's at home, you actually made sure to give them a full story as to how and why you purchased that gun. Mr. Overstreet, you are having trouble keeping me quiet now because I tell stories as I'm talking to you. Do you think I was less than that with the police when I'm upset? This is how I talk. I tell full stories to illustrate what I'm saying. Even though you were just informed of your husband's murder. Well, apparently it didn't make me quieter, it just made me more upset. Why would you pay cash at the gun show? Well, actually that was Stan's idea. And when we talked about it and what have you, he said, here's 400 in cash, you get cash from your thing. So I went on Dan's idea on that. Didn't you actually withdraw the $400? I withdrew the $400, but he gave me a $400 in addition and he gave me cash. Okay, I don't know that I quite understand that. Didn't you withdraw $400 from your on-point account? After he had given me the first $400. How did he give you $400? In cash. Where did that come from? Dan has cash at the house. Dan owns and operates a cash business, you know? He sells eggs, he sells crap on the cart, he sells, he operates with a lot of cash. Okay, so he gave you, we'll talk about that too. So he gives you $400, you then go to on-point and withdraw $400. So you have $800 cash. I do. What did you do with the remaining $300? Well, it wasn't a remaining $300. As they were taking the gun apart to show me how it worked, they sold me, but I didn't have a receipt on it, they sold me some oil that they thought I was going to need. And in addition, I had bought a book on glocks in general. So what did I do with the probably $200 plus but not much plus? I don't know. Maybe I gave part back to Dan. That was a long time ago. It wasn't that essential to me. I have no memory of what I did with it. You didn't put it back in your bank account? Maybe Dan and I went out to dinner. Who knows? You know, but I could have just as easily given it back to Dan. Okay. Hi, Greg. What do you got? Yeah. So Jason, the last one you talked about monologues, exactly what we say in de-conflict, right? I said, what we say is in the Liars Loop, I started off with a trigger, then I fabricate, then I de-conflict, then I pitch. And until I pitch, I don't know what people are going to tear me apart for. And then when they start, I have to defend that. And when I have to defend it, I have to internally, while I'm standing there, de-conflict it, pitch it again. And what we try to do is force a person into the death spiral of a lie. So they're standing in front of you trying to fix something. She's getting there. She's getting there very quickly because listen to her cadence change this time. There's some red flag deviations here. Earlier places when she would tell, she would slow down and get methodical, not here. She's hastening. She conditions the words with actually in the beginning. And then she tries to rush to tell you, actually he gave me and she speeds up. She sits up straighter than she has in the past. And now her head's in full wobble. This is where I got the Doris Roberts. Do you know who Doris Roberts is? Go look her up. This is a Doris Roberts bobblehead doll. If you ever watch, everybody loves Raymond. She was the mother there. That character, she looks a lot like her, but she's got her head bobbling around so much now that it's really hard to look at her straight. And then her blink rate goes through the roof. And we know that blink typically indicates one of two things. A person's processor is heating up. They're trying to process information or they're under stress and so there you go. And this is the first time we also see her do this self-embrace. She's tightening her body. She's hugging herself. And that's both a barrier and an adapter because she's probably pressing in her ribs and she's milling her hands at the convenient I have no memory. That's her escape. That's how she gets out. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, he operates with a lot of cash, she says, and then she adapts and then covers primary sexual characteristics, which in her case would be over. It's just down here. That I don't think we've seen her do before. She then drops her hands down a little bit further into her rest pose. But what I want you to look at is that initial covering of primary sexual characteristics, which does suggest there's some real heat around these particular questions or how she's trying to de-conflict this with the he runs a cash business. I do, she says. And then there's sourmouth and vocal click as well. That's a good sign that there's a lot of stress here. Last of all, I think you're right. There's a lot of de-confliction going on here because we see her eyes scanning from left, right, left, right, as she looks for some kind of new story to occur quickly in her mind. Her brain is really trying to think hard and fast here. And then we get a loss of fluency in the rhythm of her, of the way she's creating narrative changes dramatically. So the heats up for her, her brain is on overdrive and it's not quite managing. And she's now starting to instinctually protect the most important organs in her body. Chase, what do you got on this one? I'm just going to walk you through the first half, just kind of the first half of this video. And I'm just going to tell you everything that goes on and you can find it later. I'm going to do it one at a time, I think in chronological order. If you'll forgive me if I make a mistake or two here, but they're all there. Number one, Mark, you call it loss of fluency when she's talking about her bank account using the ATM, which she doesn't say, phrase repetition, single shoulder shrug at the source of the cash from Dan, information spike in unnecessary places and missing detail in critical areas. This is a large disparity here in this clip. They're self-grooming immediately after talking about the source of the cash. There's an arm cross and behavioral hesitancy happening at the same time. So it's just like we have verbal hesitancy, we can have behavioral hesitancy where you'll see someone start to move and stop and maybe correct themselves a little bit. So that's what I might call behavioral hesitancy. Maybe there's a word for that. Then there's a second reversed arm cross immediately after that, instantly after that, with increased behavioral hesitancy again. Then we get to Mark, you call that there more genital, what I would call genital protective behavior. I'm just going to leave the second half alone completely. That was a mountain. I didn't even count it, but I'm sure the score would be well into 68.2 million. Give or take. And Scott, what do you get? All right, this was prepared and well rehearsed. We know this because her voice starts looting. So she hasn't sounded like this before. She's selling this at this point. She was ready for this, but it sort of gets out of hand for her again. And when she's asked the follow-up question, this is a part where, like we've seen before, as she goes through it, everything's fine. It starts falling apart there. She de-conflicted it, but her barriers and adapters start showing up right after that question or after she starts answering it with arms across her stomach, the whole thing. So she's not, again, she's not, she's prepared, but she's not prepared. It's a combination. And I think a lot of this is to blame on her attorney. Like you were saying earlier, Chase, something's not right here. She's done this monologue and she's done it in her head. I don't think she's spoken this stuff out, but she's gone through the, she's created these monologues and she hasn't run them by her attorney because her attorney would have said, wait, hang on just a second. You can't say it like that. Don't do that. We're also going to start hearing a proof that she's done that because her story changes as she goes along. She's thought about all these things, everything's loose, but she's not zeroed in on it and gone, dang, here it is. That's the line I'm going. That's my story right there. She keeps having to change it because she's getting new information from this other attorney. As she starts talking about the extra money, oil for a gun, what is that? 12 bucks at the most. You know, if you get the real fancy stuff, it's like $12. It's not much at all. And a book on Glocks. How many books on Glocks are they going to have there that you know, here's a book on Glocks you might like? You might find that interesting. That's going to be 20 bucks. So we're looking at $32, probably less than 40 bucks gone from that. And I don't think this went as well as she had hoped it would go. So, all right, that's what I get. All right, Chase. See, if you hadn't been chewing, if you hadn't been chewing, it would have been perfect. But I'll give that one to you. I'll give that one to you. Why would you pay cash at the gun show? Well, actually, that was Stan's idea. And when we talked about it and what have you, he said, here's $400 in cash. You get cash from your thing. So I went on Dan's idea on that. Didn't you actually withdraw the $400? I withdrew the $400, but he gave me a $400 in addition, and he gave me cash. Okay, I don't know that I quite understand that. Didn't you withdraw $400 from your on-point account? After he had given me the first $400. How did he give you $400? In cash. Where did that come from? Dan has cash at the house. Dan owns and operates a cash business. You know, he sells eggs. He sells crap on the cart. He operates with a lot of cash. Okay, so he gave you, we'll talk about that too. So he gives you $400. You then go to on-point and withdraw $400. So you have $800 cash. I do. What did you do with the remaining $300? Well, it wasn't a remaining $300. As they were taking the gun apart to show me how it worked, they sold me, but I didn't have a receipt on this, they sold me some oil that they thought I was going to need. And in addition, I had bought a book on glocks in general. So what did I do with the probably $200 plus, but not much plus? I don't know. Maybe I gave part back to Dan. That was a long time ago. It wasn't that essential to me. I have no memory of what I did with it. You didn't put it back in your bank account? Maybe Dan and I went out to dinner. Who knows? You know, but I could have just as easily given it back to Dan. Okay. Okay, so you didn't decide you didn't want it that day? That's right. You got it home, you took it, did you handle it? Oh, sure. We both did. What did you do to handle it? Well, you know, we pulled it out and we looked at it. And I mean, how would I have known it was heavy if I hadn't held it? You know, and you know, somebody testified earlier that there were two little dark hairs that were in the slide in our house who had two little short dark hairs was not me. You know, that would have been Dan. He handled it. Did you see him handle it? Yeah, it was right there. And what did he do with it? He looked at it. He picked it up. He messed with it. He pointed it toward the backyard. So, you know, even though it had no bullets in it and, you know, I don't recall, we had a great conversation about it, but he definitely handled it. Did you ever remove the sidebarrow? Oh, sure. I played with it. Oh, you did remove the sidebarrow? Sure. Oh. I didn't think that was a secret. Well, you didn't tell the police that. The police didn't ask me whether I'd removed the sidebarrow. You told the police that you got it home and that you realized how much you didn't want it, and you put it away and never touched it again. Do you remember that? I could have said that, but I was upset at the time. So that was probably an exaggeration. I handled the gun, you know. I may not have loved it, but I was still curious about it. And keep in mind, I'm writing a story about a gun, and I need to research guns so I can have it. Like, yes. I didn't, you know, I touched the gun. Yeah. And so your testimony today, after hearing all the testimony and seeing all the evidence on the screen, your testimony today is that you have removed that sidebarrow. I have. So you know how to do it. Yeah. It's not that hard, right? Oh, it's terribly hard. I broke two nails doing it. Don't believe them when they say it's not that hard. You can't just whip it off the way they do it. You have to hold the gun a certain way. You have to pull it back. I broke two nails pulling it back, and I thought this isn't any fun. And you would be shocked at how hard it is to do. You know, yeah, if you've handled guns all your life, I'm sure it's a piece of cake that I can tell you for me it was not. All right, Mark, what do you get? I got a massive deviation from her usual baseline in just a stream of fillers, which are, you know, the words that go in between other words that don't really have any job, don't really do much apart from fill space and maybe give you time to think about what you're saying and de-conflict stuff or just spin your wheels because it's going badly. Here's just a few that I've got in the first 45 seconds. I stopped after a while, but we've got, well, you know, I mean, and you know, you know, no, and that's just in the first 30 or 45 seconds or so. What I did really love about this, she gives some kind of look off to the side. And it has that look of this is going so badly. This kind of incredulous feeling about how badly this is going for her. I think she'd probably, as everybody's been saying, been organizing this in her head and somehow thought this could go quite well, you know, because she writes stories about murders, I guess, and she's probably got an idea that she might, you know, be some kind of Paro-esque person who might be able to talk a way out of this. But it's going badly for her. Scott, what do you got on this one? Yeah, man, Paro-esque, nicely put. Yeah, man. Okay, I think this is, this gets on my nerves because this is a really dangerous situation for gun accidents because she's talking about playing with a gun. She even says, I played, you know, I played with it. That's not good. That's how people get shot. You don't have, when a gun looks like a real gun, it's not a toy. You have to treat it like a gun, like a loaded gun because someone may see the real one and think that's the quote unquote toy. If she didn't refer to it here, she refers to it in a couple of minutes. That's how people get shot. That's how people get killed. So, and she says, when the no bullets in it, I played with it. No, that right there just flipped my whole thing to, I don't like her at all. Then he nails her when he brings up the statement she made that she just contradicted. And that throws her off a little bit. Then she starts that hard chaff and redirect again. You know, that's all she, and starts adding all this stuff. Nobody asked her how you break a gun down. Where did this come up? It didn't. She's trying to stay so far away from that, from the question she's doing, everything she can to stay away from it. She's adding everything to it. Her, again, her answers are getting longer. Her words are spaced a little bit. She'll speed up and slow down, but her sentences are getting much longer as she tries to distance herself from all that, from what she assumes is, or sees to be the problem in that situation. And then there's one more question. That's where she starts. She actually starts the, starts talking about the gun breakdown. It's just ridiculous. It's what, the way she talks and the way she views firearms is shameful. That's horrible. That's the way people get shot. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah. So one of the things that I've noticed in people, when you're in an interrogation and you get to a point where you are up against the wall, when you're in trouble, and if you get in trouble, you don't have to be an interrogation. You get in trouble with your spouse. You get in some altercation with your boss. What happens is people are in heightened fight or flight. They're panicked until they get back to some commonality, something they always do. It's why we adapt like all hell. We may play with our ring. We may do something. And look, I've watched many, many, many people in captivity and all those things they normally do just become more and more pronounced, kind of like putting somebody in a cage. Hers is chaff and redirect. She's a storyteller. She's a bullshitter. And she just goes on and on and on and on and on until she gets back to some comfort level. If you want to watch, Mark, I think you nailed it right in the beginning. She's just spewing prepositions and ums and us until she can get to a point where she's got them asking her the questions that she's prepared for. That happens about 30 seconds in. Then once they start to bite on her hook, then she starts spewing whatever information there is. She's prepared. She's ready until he confronts her with that thing about saying she didn't want the gun. Watch her eyelid flutter and a slight eye roll. My guess is that eye roll is a predecessor to altercation for her. And if she were not in this situation, we might see a little bit different her. She's back to that cadence with space between the words and large illustrators and telling again toned down when I was writing a story. And then that bobblehead thing starts up again, pretty pronounced and she makes immediate eye contact immediate eye contact with her counsel right after she admits moving the slide. Then she goes back into that chaff and redirect to try to comfort herself. I would love interrogating somebody like this because you cut them off at every turn when they're chaffing and redirecting and it raises their adrenaline levels all the more every time you do it. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I'll say I agree with all of y'all. Y'all covered most everything here. And this is a point where an interrogator could say, actually, this isn't correct. And you would just kind of disagree with one detail about her chaff story. Then you could see what a genuine denial will look like in the future. So disagreeing with something early on that they know to be true. Then you'll see what a truthful, genuine denial looks like. And you can see that right away. So if he says the slide does just slide off like that and for the record, it does just slide right off like that for the record. But one thing I want you to see here in this video, you can see the precise moment. And if you want, type the timestamp in the comments. There's a precise moment in here when she goes off the cliff from telling to completely selling this whole thing. And you can see her go off the cliff. I want to see if you can spot it because it's a great little illustrator that's going to help to train your brain, not just for entertainment on YouTube, sitting here with your phone, but it'll train your brain for when you start seeing this in public. You're in a bar. You're at a networking event. You're at a job interview. You never know when you might need this kind of stuff. Seeing this transition is pretty important. That's all I got. Chase, that was good. That's very nice. Very nice. Okay, so you didn't decide you didn't want it that day. That's right. You got it home. You took it. Did you handle it? Oh, sure. We both did. What did you do to handle it? Well, you know, we pulled it out and we looked at it. And I mean, how would I have known it was heavy if I hadn't held it? You know, and, you know, somebody testified earlier that there were two little dark hairs that were in the slide. In our house, who had two little short dark hairs was not me. You know, that would have been Dan. He handled it. Did you see him handle it? Yeah, it was right there. And what did he do with it? He looked at it. He picked it up. He messed with it. He pointed it toward the backyard. So, you know, even though it had no bullets in it. And, you know, I don't recall. We had a great conversation about it, but he definitely handled it. Did you ever remove the sidebarrel? Oh, sure. I played with it. Oh, you did remove the sidebarrel? Sure. Oh. I didn't think that was a secret. Well, you didn't tell the police that. The police didn't ask me whether I'd removed the sidebarrel. You told the police that you got it home and that you realized how much you didn't want it and you put it away and never touched it again. Do you remember that? I could have said that, but I was upset at the time. So that was probably an exaggeration. I handled the gun. You know, I may not have loved it, but I was still curious about it. And keep in mind, I'm writing a story about a gun. And I need to research guns so I can have it. But yes, I didn't, you know, I touched the gun. Yeah. And so your testimony today, after hearing all the testimony and seeing all the evidence on the screen, your testimony today is that you have removed that sidebarrel. I have. So you know how to do it. Yeah. It's not that hard, right? Oh, it's terribly hard. I broke two nails doing it. Don't believe them when they say it's not that hard. You can't just whip it off the way they do it. You have to hold the gun a certain way. You have to pull it back. I broke two nails pulling it back. And I thought this isn't any fun. And you would be shocked at how hard it is to do. You know, yeah, if you've handled guns all your life, I'm sure it's a piece of cake that I can tell you for me it was not. So you remove the sidebarrel. Yes. You can see that it's nearly identical to the ghost gun sidebarrel, correct? I'd have to look at both of them now, but I would say yes. Let's do that. Oh, yeah, we can look at that. Okay. Hand me these two. Yes. Did these look nearly identical? I would agree that they look identical, but they obviously are not. One of them is quite a bit longer than the other one. Quite a bit longer. Which makes them not identical. When you're surfing the little things on which find five things in this picture that aren't identical, you would circle them. Great. This one is slightly shorter. Yes. Lock 19, ghost gun. All right. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So as they start talking about, could you tell one from the other? We see her eyes move left, right, left, right, left, right as she starts to de-conflict. Well, how's that going to go? As to which way I'd go on this? She's got her idea of the story, but I don't think she was expecting this question. Nice response from her. Well, I'd have to take a look at that. And of course, yeah, he goes, okay, let's do that then. Well, though we don't see full surprise on her face, it'd be lovely if we did see that full surprise. What we do get is we clearly hear the intake of breath of surprise from her. She was not expecting that. I wonder whether that clocking of evidence at the start, maybe she saw that case on the table. I don't know. It'd be nice to see whether he reveals that case or whether that's been sitting on the table all the way along. Don't quite know. But anyway, she falls into a little bit of a trap there. There is surprise there. There's a redistribution of weight as well. Her whole body shifts. There's a loss in fluency again. But the nicest thing I see there and look out for it is the side of the mouth goes up into contempt as the evidence gets produced. This is not good for her. She knows it. Lovely, some great body language in that one. Greg, what do you got there? Yeah, so Mark, I'm not going to cover the same things you did because I love all those. Those are all beautiful. The way it all ties together. There's one other thing that shows her apprehension. Her forehead is up in the beginning. She's not talking her forehead's up in apprehension of what he's about to say. She, I think she can see the gun and she thinks she'll just play it by ear and go, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I can't tell from here. And he calls her on it. I love that. There's adapting and burying. She's crossing herself and milling at the same time. So she's trying to get comfort out of it. She tries to redirect and he calls her on it when she says, well, because that was her attempt to do what she does best just to stammer about, well, I can't tell if they're the same size or not to kind of look like it from here. There, you know, they're all black. By the way, if you don't follow the story yet, it appears that she bought a full blown gun that she was going to kill her husband with and bought a ghost gun, which is a gun. You build a gun kit that you build. And then the slide was the wrong size. She probably got the wrong kind of lock and many different numbers different kinds of guns. So then when that didn't work, she had to go out and buy a slide and barrel, a third piece. That's what the story is developing to. If you're not following that and you're not a gun person, what it means and the reason is because if I can dispose of the barrel, then you can't trace ballistics to me. It's not like there's a database of every bullet fired from every gun in the world. And they just compare. So they have to find the barrel and then compare it to the round that was used. And that's how this works. So if you're not accustomed to guns, maybe that'll help. But she tries to redirect and run down that path and do what she does and chaff, chaff, chaff, but he stops her when he says, okay, we can. She goes, well, okay. Now her storytelling is gone. She's lost that ability. She becomes riveted on him and paying really close attention as he's moving, Mark, whatever he's doing at the table. Then she looks at council again. Then she goes back to telling again when he gets up and gives her the chance. She's saying, this is not like that. And this is not like that. And look, she even tries to make it personable. Look, if you had to circle what's not alike, I'd do it this way. She's a master of chaff and redirect at every opportunity to make her comfortable again. Chase, what do you got? At any possible point, watching these videos that we do every week, there's one single question that's on the top of my mind every single time. If it could help you. What is being concealed? So what information is being left out that should normally be included in a regular situation? Where are the missing details and language that you would hear from a normal slash innocent person? In this clip right here, you're seeing her conceal what every human being would agree to, openly agree to. Her unwillingness to say that they look very similar is filled with just disagreement, detail picking and argument and this concealment of something so obvious that a normal person would agree with tells you everything you need to know. You can just use this when you analyze just about anything. What's being disputed, concealed, left out or brushed over? And that also goes into is there a detailed mountain in one place and a detailed valley in another place and they're in the wrong spots. So we see concealment by omission and we see concealment here by just disagreement with tiny things. Scott. All right, y'all have covered everything. So I'll talk about marks. The keyword mark, as you said, was trap. This guy is setting a trap. That's what we're watching to happen. He's in front of her. He's just sitting there putting everything together, talking to her as he's putting this trap together. And so let's see if she walks into it. Greg with a smile and everything. That's adorable. So you remove the slime barrel. Yes. You can see that it's nearly identical to the ghost gun slime barrel, correct? I'd have to look at both of them now, but I would say yes. Let's do that. Oh, yeah. We can look at that. Okay. Yes. Did these look nearly identical? I would agree that they look identical, but they obviously are not. One of them is quite a bit longer than the other one. Quite a bit longer. Which makes them not identical. When you're surfing the little things on which find five things in this picture that aren't identical, you would circle them. Right. This one is slightly shorter. Yes. Block 19 ghost gun. What else is not identical about this gun? Well, one of them obviously has a zip tie on it, but they are similar. It's what I would say, but they are not identical. Can you see the back? Yes. I agree they're similar. Can you see the top? I agree they're similar. I'm not going to point this at you, but can you see the the barrel? I can. Anything about this side that is not exactly the same? I would ask you this as you're demonstrating this. Does it fit on the other gun? No. Does that make it not identical? Yes. You knew it didn't fit, right? I knew it didn't fit because I knew that I had a book on Glock's and in order for Glock to work, it had to work the right way. You knew it didn't fit and then you bought a sliding barrel that would fit the gun show gun, right? No. I bought a sliding barrel that was the same one. I could have easily bought one that fit the ghost gun, but I did not. I bought this one. Why would you buy another slide barrel to fit the ghost gun when you couldn't build it? You already own it. You own this piece right here. You own this. Yes. So why would you buy another one? You know, if a trigger had been available, I would have bought a trigger. I'm telling you, I was fascinated with gun pieces at that point because I was writing a story on gun pieces and making it into a gun. There's a trigger in this kit? Yes, and I would have bought another one if I had it. I figured if I could construct them together the way the character would have, it would have worked fine. But Miss Brophy, you didn't buy other gun pieces. You bought a sliding barrel that would fit this gun. That's true. No other pieces did you buy? No, but I wasn't finished shopping either. Let me ask you guys something. How long do you think it's going to take for somebody to grab a gift of Greg doing that head bobble thing? Just think it's going to be two days or three days? What do you think? Who cares? Who cares? Well, I care. Watch it. Somebody's going to do it. Somebody's going to do it. Okay, here we go. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so here now she is miss helpful. She's in a bind, but she even tries to be helpful when she gets to the trigger stuff. Up front, she knows she's in trouble. She knows she's got pieces she wants to avoid. As soon as she gets to the opportunity, she's going to try to avoid it and go away with non pertinent information. Now, let me tell you, there's no such thing as non pertinent information in an interrogation. She starts talking about shopping for triggers. Look, I would have said, hold on. I happen to know you can buy triggers all day for X number of dollars at this site. Did you ever go there? I would take that rope and run with it in an interrogation, but you really can't do that in front of a jury. So in front of a jury, he's got to illustrate that what she's saying is BS and he does a pretty good job of it. She starts off trying to be miss helpful, saying, okay, this matters, that matters. Then she does one thing that's interesting. She sped up with him and it's clear. She does a quick inhale deep and leans back to excuse him almost like if your grandmother was upset with you because you had done something wrong at her house on Thanksgiving, she went, you get the point. And I think she does that. She wants to move on because she's got other parts of this story written. She knows that if she can talk about all this redirect with chaff and trigger and other parts, although it's interesting, she doesn't bring up any other parts. If you were really, really, really, really enamored of firearms of pistols that your person might use, there's a lot more to talk about with a Glock specifically, not being the biggest Glock guy in the world. There's a lot of stuff she could have talked about. There are other things she could have brought up to chaff and redirect, but she doesn't know that because she's only interested in that slide. She knew what a trigger is and it's easy for her to say that. I think that's what I'm seeing. When she doesn't, I think she has a story to tell with those trigger and other shopping. And when she doesn't get that point across, I think there may be a narrative she's talked to her attorneys about. When she doesn't get it across, look at that quick, hard eye contact with her attorneys. I think there's something going on here. Scott, what do you got? All right. I think this is where she loses any control at all that she had up to this point. And she knows he's up to something. She's not really sure what it is yet. She doesn't really know. And then when it dawns on her what's happening, then she pauses and she readjusts, and she starts chaffing and redirecting again. She takes a big deep breath and she asks him a question, you know, because she has no what to do next. Then she starts rambling and rambling and it's too late. He's already got her boxed in and there's no way out of it. And I think it's beautiful the way he handled that. Just got her, how many times have we done that? You just get, you see it, you start talking to the next thing you know, they can't get out of the box and she can't get out. She's just squirming around in there, but then he walks away and sort of lets her go, but he leaves her in there all stuck in the box, trying to talk her way out. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I think part of the reason she was so off balance is he's standing up and the distance, their physical distance, which is the nerd word for that is called proxemics. So he's, he's getting closer to her in her space. He's holding a gun and he's questioning her. And I think her attorney made her rehearsal of this. I think her attorney walked her through how to get out of this, how to kind of squirrel out of this thing. And I think she did a great, I think she thinks she did a great job, because when she makes that hard eye contact with her attorney, you were talking about, there's a smirk. There's a tiny little smirk where she's like, huh? How about that? I did it. And you can see it right there at the end. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I'm going to add her out to my vocabulary of brilliant outs, which is I wasn't finished shopping. I hadn't finished shopping. I mean, I just think there's so many things you're going to be able to get out of with that. Mark, why were you in that secure area at one o'clock? I hadn't finished shopping. You know, exactly. I think it's beautiful. And just as you're saying, Chase, is that rice mile afterwards? And she clearly laughs as well, because if you look at a diaphragm, you can see the diaphragm moving up and down in laughter. So she is loving that line that she gave. I wasn't finished shopping. Maybe we'll do a t-shirt for anybody that wants it. I wasn't finished shopping. It's the best excuse I've heard in a long, long time. I'm certainly going to be using it in some very, very critical moments in my life. There. That's all I got on that one. I'm going to get out of speeding tickets. I'll give that to you, Chase. Why were you doing 120 miles an hour? You committed. I wasn't finished shopping. You committed. Committed. Even while the others were being out in the middle of talking, man. You committed to it. That was unprofessional. Well, I'm sorry. I wasn't finished. I wasn't finished shopping, Chase. What else is not identical about this gun? Well, one of them obviously has a zip tie on it, but they are similar. It's what I would say, but they are not identical. Can you see the back? Yes. I agree. They're similar. Can you see the top? I agree. They're similar. I'm not going to point this at you, but can you see the barrel? I can. Anything about this side that is not exactly the same? I would ask you this as you're demonstrating this. Does it fit on the other gun? No. Does that make it not identical? Yes. You knew it didn't fit, right? I knew it didn't fit because I knew that I had a book on glocks, and in order for it to work, it had to work the right way. You knew it didn't fit, and then you bought a slide and barrel that would fit the gun show gun, right? No. I bought a slide and barrel that was the same one. I could have easily bought one that fit the ghost gun, but I did not. I bought this one. Why would you buy another slide and barrel to fit the ghost gun when you couldn't build it? You already own it. You own this piece, right here. You own this. Yes. So why would you buy another one? You know, if a trigger had been available, I would have bought a trigger. I'm telling you, I was fascinated with gun pieces at that point because I was writing a story on gun pieces and making it into a gun. There's a trigger in this kit? Yes, and I would have bought another one if I'd had it. I figured if I could construct them together the way the character would have, it would have worked fine. But Ms. Brophy, you didn't buy other gun pieces. You bought a slide and barrel that would fit this gun. That's true. No other pieces did you buy? No, but I wasn't finished shopping either. Your counsel said this. I don't know if you believe it or agree with it, but I'm going to ask you. You needed to buy that slide and barrel because you were worried about taking this gun apart? Yes. But you just testified that you took the slide and barrel off of it? That's not taking the gun apart. We're talking about if we took the slide and barrel, the slide and barrel itself completely apart, could I put it back together and have a gun that wouldn't backfire on me and kill me? You know? And so the fact that when I said to Dan, I can take this gun, the real gun, not the played the gun apart, and it'll help me do this. Dan said, no, no, no, no. I've seen you in action. That's a mistake. Let's keep it together. We may get to sell it. I'm not talking about taking the entire gun apart. Okay. Talking about the slide and barrel. Yes. It's a critical piece of information. As you know now, if you didn't know before this trial, you know now the slide and barrel is what it is at issue. Right? Yes. You keep talking about the gun and taking it apart and all that, talking about the slide and barrel. You have a gun complete, slide and barrel intact. You know how to remove it. In fact, you did. You can manipulate the slide and barrel separate and apart from the rest of the gun, but you chose to buy the exact same piece. Is that right? Yes, but I've had a caveat on that too. Of course. Go ahead. The caveat I have on that was I wasn't thinking, hey, this would work that way. I was thinking because for me, the gun was the gun, the toy was the toy. The pieces were the toy. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I'll be short on this one. She starts off with that same. She's using yes to box. Yes allows her to hurdle over whatever it is that you're doing so she can get to her next spot. That's the only reason she says yes. She does an emphatic yes in the beginning of this, which is a little interesting. Then she does her logical argument. Just bump, bump, bump, bump. And when she's doing the logical argument, you can see she's nodding her head and telling and that bobbling head is gone. Then when she starts talking about Dan and him saying, no, you can't do that, the head bobble comes back and she shows some frustration or disdain right in there. And there's exasperation in her voice when she says, I have a caveat for that too. And then she's got the most condemning withdrawal to the sides of her mouth as she's looking at this guy. When she tells a story about one was a toy and Scott, I know a better hot button. When she starts talking about one was a toy and one was the other, then you get head bobble again because she's uncertain. So guys, we got really good baseline for what happens when she's uncomfortable. Chase, she pointed out very early that head bobble starts when she's uncomfortable with where she's at. When she's comfortable, she's got a head down that, yes, is a framework. This is easy to box her in. I'd love to interrogate somebody who is this transparent. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, so when she's saying all of these pieces in the slide and barrel assembly, you have a slide and a barrel and this. This is the exact piece from a Glock and this is what it looks like and it takes less than a second to put in. And I think any human being could do this. So I think she is trying to inject complexity here. This isn't hard. So we're seeing another attempt that we see regularly to jam complexity and ambiguity into the story here. And I have to admit, I'm lost on this. She is way better at chaff than I think people might realize. And this behavior here is a deviation from normal for what we've seen her talk about that we know are facts. And the demeanor is defensive, concealing around something that should very much should be simple and easy to explain when something is simple. And a person usually communicates in a really straightforward way and you see an immediate spike in detail and explanation right here. There's excess information, information that has no relevance to the question in the first place. And you're most likely seeing a lot of deception here. We see a detailed mountain in the wrong place and detailed valley in the wrong place at the same time. And that's what we're seeing here. Scott. All right. The reason for what you're talking about, Chase, when you're hearing these things that don't go with it and they seem out of places because she's a creative. She's a writer. And she writes these long, she writes books. We know how it is to write a book. It takes a while. There's a lot of information there, but she has to be creative and create that story. She's very creative. So it's easy for her to on the spot create these small little stories and things. That's why there's so much information everywhere. That's why she keeps going on and on because she can think that stuff up really quickly. Really quickly. There's nothing for her to make up a little story real quick. And she even said it herself. She tells things in stories. Remember earlier, she said that. That's what's going on there. That's why she does that. What irks the living out of me, like you were saying, Greg, is that she refers to this gun as a toy. Guns are not toys. There are no, you have toy guns that are orange and all that as a kid. But these things, they'll kill you. Those things can kill you. It's not a toy. And when you think they're unloaded, when I was raised, my dad said, look, you gotta look at guns like this. They're magic because they can load themselves. You can unload a gun, get up and go get a drink of water and come back and you can have a bullet in it. That's the way you have to think about those things. They have ammunition. That's the way you gotta think, or somebody could get shot. It's not a toy. Never are they, do you refer to a gun as a toy? If you can take a part of one gun out and put it in another one, which that's why she got that thing and it kills somebody, that's not a toy. That is a full blown gun. So you gotta be, I'm getting too up in this. I gotta calm down a little bit. Sorry, fellas. Yeah, so I'll end it there. That confusion between the two can get somebody killed. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I mean, look, even if you don't understand what she's talking about because there's lots of chaff in there or it's not a vocabulary you're used to, you can see that there's a lot more stress and pressure around her because upcoming the gestures, they're big again and then they start collapsing again and we get two loud sounds on the table. That says to me immediately a big difference in her baseline. She's under a lot of pressure right now and then we get an eye roll from her and that's contempt. She's contemptuous of the questioning and the line of questioning. Now, what interests me is she's contemptuous around it. She's not angry about it. Now, we've seen anger or some elements of it in the past and in a couple of videos time, I think we'll see some really clear anger from her. But look, if she really felt there was some innocence around any of that, I would expect more anger around the line of questioning, not contempt for the line of questioning. So the very eye roll for me just says contempt of the line of questioning. And so that doesn't look good in terms of innocence, just that in of itself. That's all I got on that one. I'm going to give it to Mark. That was pro, Mark. What's she going to give it to me? Of course, you've been holding off on that. That was nuts. I mean, I just can't win every time. That's that was pro. That would look like that. His dismount was perfect. You're shopping dismount. I love her. I love her. You were worried. You, your counsel said this. I don't know if you believe it or agree with it, but I'm going to ask you. You needed to buy that slide and barrel because you were worried about taking this gun apart. Yes. OK. But you just testified that you took the slide and barrel off of it. That's not taking the gun apart. We're talking about if we took the slide and barrel, the slide and barrel itself completely apart, could I put it back together and have a gun that wouldn't backfire on me and kill me? And so the fact that when I said to Dan, I can take this gun, the real gun, not the kit, play the gun apart, and it'll help me do this. Dan said, no, no, no, no. I've seen you in action. That's a mistake. Let's keep it together. We may get to sell it. I'm not talking about taking the entire gun apart. OK. I'm talking about the slide and barrel. Yes. It's a critical piece of information. As you know now, if you didn't know before this trial, you know now the slide and barrel is what it is at issue. Right? Yes. You keep talking about the gun and taking it apart and all that. I'm talking about the slide and barrel. You have a gun complete, slide and barrel intact. You know how to remove it. In fact, you did. You can manipulate the slide and barrel separate and apart from the rest of the gun. But you chose to buy the exact same piece. Is that right? Yes, but I've had a caveat on that, too. Of course. Go ahead. The caveat I had on that was I wasn't thinking, hey, this would work that way. I was thinking, because for me, the gun was the gun. The toy was the toy. The pieces were the toy. Your attorney seemed to indicate that you happened upon the eBay slide and barrel. Yes. It was just a pop-up ad. No, it wasn't a pop-up ad. That's what she said. Well, if that's what she said, then I probably said that to her at one point or another. But it wasn't something that the slide and barrel was a... Like that? Sorry. I didn't happen upon it. At the point that I decided I wanted to do this, I tend to be impulsive. And I bought it because I wanted it. Where is it? I have no idea. If you'd asked me on the day of my rest, I would have told you that it was either in the house or it was either in storage. I haven't seen it for months and months and months and months. And you just bought it in February and got it at the very last day of February, right? February 28th? Could be. I don't know. I mean, I'm not looking at my numbers, notes. You didn't lose this gun? No. You didn't lose the gun kit? The gun kit went to the police. The gun went to the police. I didn't have to worry about packing that. Ms. Grophy, I'm talking about the time leading up to the murder. The time leading up to the murder. Oh, all right. No, I knew where it was. You knew where the ghost gun was? It was on the floor of my closet. You knew where that gun was? Yes. And I would tell you that the slide was on the floor of my closet next to the ghost gun. Sitting on the floor. Just like literally sitting on the floor? Well, it wasn't in the middle. It was tucked next to, rather than behind, next to an armor I had in the closet. When's the last time you saw it? That's what I was saying. I can't remember. I have no idea when the last time I saw it was. I know that I messed with it in February. I know I messed with it in March, but I can't remember seeing it after that. All right, Chase, what do you got? You're on your way to a classic. I can feel it. I'm not so softly as well. I really thought you were on the hook there. This one's going to go... Yeah, I did too, man. I can't believe it. You know the mistake you guys started making too early? You nodded too quick. You're probably right. Amateurs, amateurs. When I did my world record last year, when I look at it now, I can see Greg laughing at him doing this every couple of minutes. When does he go, yes, I agree with you. He never does that. He was going, I was trying to give you a warning. Hey, you're burning time. Man. Okay, go ahead. Let's do it again. Let's pretend I'm coming back here or we're coming back here. Ready? Yeah. Chase, what do you got? Right here, she is shaking her head and moving her head to communicate with the, you know, where is it question? And this, that's what I want to focus on here. We see the exhale followed by a memorized response. So it's a big question followed by an exhale. When we're not sure what all we're going to say about something and she's already told us, she goes on and on. She's already told us that she goes on and on. We will inhale before answering so we don't run out of air. But here we see an exhale. And when we see an exhale to an unknown question, we know this person's got something small and ready to go. Then we see repetition of words either two times. There's repetition of words, months, three times. Then there's a micro expression of a smile after the months. I see a tiny little smile there on the face. And notice I want she describes where the slide was in the closet. Her baseline comes back and where all this stuff was situated in her closet. She was almost frozen, frozen in place until this point. And also notice this precise exacting detail. She remembers the location of every item except for maybe the last time she saw this slide. I think this is a perfect training worthy demonstration of behavioral change indicating these red flags instead of a predetermined list of body language cues. So here's a lesson for this clip. I think, and I'm just speaking for me, not these other three gentlemen here. I think change, being able to detect change is more important than being able to detect a checklist, change over checklist. We can make a bumper sticker out of that. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more because it's difficult to memorize the whole checklist. And so you're going to end up fairly amateur just because of how much information you can't cram into your head. But if you just go via change, you've got more a chance of accuracy and asking questions at good points. So I couldn't agree more. Look, talking of amateurs, she's starting to get angry now and then starting to get a little bit amateur in the way she's being in court because her default now is being argumentative. So instantly she's into no around the pop up. Well, as a little bit of advice on how to argue really well, and I started arguing, being trained to argue at the dinner table from being a very young English child, never start to argue back until you have finished hearing the proposition, until you've really worked out, what could I possibly be arguing here? She doesn't wait to find out what the end of the proposition is. She's straight in with a no, he of course accepts that no, because she's now arguing her own defense, literally not literally figuratively shooting herself in the foot on this one. It's unbelievable. Loving to see complete amateur, please whenever you're arguing, wait to hear what the argument could actually be. Greg, what have you got on this one? Yeah, Mark, you just addressed Greg Hartley rule number three I learned from the army. I learned three things from the army that are powerful. Rule number three is you can't argue back when you're in a lower enlisted guy. So take your ass chewing and give feedback when asked. That works wonderfully because then you get time to build your whole story. She doesn't do that. There are a couple of other things she doesn't do well. I think and Chase, you're singing my song. I love it. Baseline, baseline, baseline. Whatever the baseline is when I see a deviation, I don't need to know everything about your baseline. If you always have your finger up your nose and you take it out, it means something. If you never have your finger up your nose and you put it in, it means something. Those changes are everything. This is a major, major baseline deviation. Everything here, I'll run through it. The yes, the thing she's used to lock down conversation. Loads up. Yes, didn't do that before. Why? Why? Why? I think there's something up here. Is that a fish for where this thing's going? She puts her finger to her head. First time we've seen that, what's going on? Well, we know that people put their finger to their head to think, but they also do it to release nervous energy in those muscles that are tensed up on the sides of your head. I think as you age, you get much better and much more contained. Doesn't mean you're more polished. Just means you can sit stoically more easily because it takes more energy to move. When she puts her finger to the side of her head, I think it's because she's trying to figure out where she's at. She's talked herself into a corner and I think she is a squirrel in the road or a worm on a griddle right now. Her brain is going all over the place. She's trying to figure out if she tries to release that stress. And then she tightly embraces and now she's doing what I call the egg protector. When you cross your uterus and tightly grip in women, it's the equivalent of men and Chase, we agree on this. You call it genital protection. Men do it in front of your groin because you're protecting testicles, which are primary sex organs. Her arm does that. She eye blocks and that's uncharacteristic of her. We haven't seen her eye block when she's trying to get away from the conversation. She does one shoulder up when she says, I bought it because I wanted it. Dang, dang, dang. We saw that way back. He does a great job with silence. He gets to the point, he just lets her sit there and squirm for a minute. She's uncertain and she eye locks and looks over to try to make contact with her counsel. And then she starts to become not articulate. If you pay attention to her words or her tools, at one point a guy says, you researched. And she says, no, I didn't because she's using past tense versus I was researching. And so English is a tool for her. It isn't here. You see her start to misplace words, use them incorrectly. And Chase, I agree with you. While she was very prepared for where things were in the closet, she even chooses the wrong words and uses them incorrectly there. And you see her arch your head in frustration with self when she does all those words. She's on the ropes right here. And it's a matter of how do you close from here? Scott, what do you got? Yeah, I agree with you guys. Chase and Mark, the dang baseline Yoda over there. Well, the first things he says in body language tactics is almost that verbatim goes through and make sure that you understand the differences in what a baseline is from just what you've heard and the list of things you get to watch out for that suggest or indicate deception. I think that's great. Well, I can't believe we've never brought that up before. I think that's awesome. Here, this has her flustered because once again, she's busted really bad. And this is because of her, in my opinion, because of her horrible communication with her attorney. Because she's saying things that he's telling her things. She said, I didn't see they said, yeah, you did. You said this and that. So there's that. There's that going on. That's what's got her flush. We've got her sort of knocked out of the road a little bit there. And she's good. One more time. She's good at lying because she creates those big long stories and books and she's a creative and she can just boom, create those little things and throw them out there. That's why she's she she could hardly keep track of everything. And her memory, I'm going to go with her. I don't think her memory is that good. Because with all these things she's thrown out, she can't remember what she said because she's thrown out so many of them. If you're going to be a liar, you better be able to remember everything you said, every little detail, especially in a situation like this. But she's just got so much going on out there. She's chaff and redirected so much, but done it wrong because she's saying facts. And here's what really happened in this stuff. She can't keep up with it. So she can't keep it straight. She doesn't even know what she said. And I blame the attorney for that because he didn't get that straight with her as they went through. So I don't think they got solid on what her story was going to be. Or they were. But I don't think they ran like we would do, run through this scenario with her or different scenarios and setups of questions and how it might come from a different angle. And they might add this to it, might add that to it. What happens if you don't know what to say? All those things. He might have had some, I think he probably did have some, a little bit of training with her, but not enough. Not enough. All right. That's all I got. Your attorney seemed to indicate that you happened upon the eBay sliding barrel. Yes. It was just a pop-up ad. No, it wasn't a pop-up ad. That's what she said. Well, if that's what she said, then I probably said that to her at one point or another. But it wasn't something that, the sliding barrel was a, like that? Sorry. I didn't happen upon it. At the point that I decided I wanted to do this, I tend to be impulsive and I bought it because I wanted it. Where is it? I have no idea. If you'd asked me on the day of my rest, I would have told you that it was either in the house or it was either in storage. I haven't seen it for months and months and months and months. So. And you just bought it in February and got it at the very last day of February, right? February 28th? Could be. I don't know. I mean, I'm not looking at my numbers. Notes. You didn't lose this gun? No. You didn't lose the gun kit? The gun kit went to the police. The gun went to the police. I didn't have to worry about packing that. Miss Barofi, I'm talking about the time leading up to the murder. Oh, all right. No, I knew where it was. You knew where the ghost gun was? It was on the floor of my closet. You knew where that gun was? Yes. And I would tell you that the slide was on the floor of my closet next to the ghost gun. Sitting on the floor. Just like literally sitting on the floor. Well, it wasn't in the middle. It was tucked, it was tucked behind, next to rather than behind, next to an armor I had in the closet. Yeah. When's the last time you saw it? That's what I was saying. I can't remember. I have no idea when the last time I saw it was. I know that I messed with it in February. I know I messed with it in March, but I can't remember seeing it after that. Well, I think it's okay. Ms. Propriet, I'm going to come back to that in a minute. But I believe your answer was that you did have the discovery. You reviewed it. Yes. Okay. And you do realize or did realize that this slide barrel that was outstanding was an essential issue in this case. Yes. Probably eight months after my arrest, I realized that. Okay. And you understand that today? Yes. Now, you've testified, well, we've heard different things from your interview with the police and what you've said on the stand that you sort of hated guns, you didn't like them, but then you became interested in them for writing, then for safety. And then you seem to have taken quite an interest after that in guns. Is that safe to say? I would say the irony is that we bought a gun to protect us and it didn't protect us. I'm just asking about your interest in guns. My interest in guns were twofold. One is the protection, which it didn't work. And second is the writing, which has nothing to do with guns, but has to do with gun pieces. Right. But you said you became obsessed with firearms. I was obsessed with the writing and the gun pieces, not with firearms. You know, I wasn't investigating AR-15s or shotguns or anything like that. Just clocks? Just a handgun that would protect my character. And you did a lot of research online? Not yet. I've started it. So you didn't you just testify? That I've started researching, that I research online all the time, but I wasn't finished researching by any stretch of the imagination. You had been to a gun show? Yes. Bought a gun? Yes. Bought a ghost gun. I went through that whole process. Right. When did you go to the gun range? I never have been to a gun range. Never been to a gun range. All right. Chase, what do you got? When she's saying like I'm doing research online, I haven't started it yet, this is a more injection of ambiguity in absolute perfect form here. She's letting you know that if you found something on my computer, that was just the beginning of research. So it's ambiguous. You can't draw conclusions based on that until I finish my research. And if you let me finish, I'll go Google a bunch of other stuff to make it look way better. Now, I think there's something hiding in plain sight here. I feel bare with me on this. Every couple of videos I go deep. I'm going deep. I think there's something hiding in plain sight. She says my interest in guns was twofold. One is protection, which it didn't work. Right here is where I think she's letting out the secret, which it didn't work. I don't think she believes the gun is going to stand up and wake up and become conscious, jump out of the closet and stop a bad guy. That's not how guns work. I also don't think she meant protection for their home. I think when she's saying it didn't work, there's a chance here, she's alluding to the entire plan, not the gun not working. If you listen to it again, you're going to hear a very strange shift in vocal tone, pitch, cadence, all of that at one time. Second one is writing about gun pieces. But she tells us the character uses the gun to protect himself. There's no gun that she says her character is using for protection, but he might be some kind of different guy who uses gun pieces to protect himself, because that's what she's insinuating here. I'll leave it alone. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I'm not going to give her that much depth. I think she's half full of s***, and I think she's trying to cover herself. I think the reason I say that is because her blink rate goes up, really up for her here. And now suddenly we do have irony. No, it's some irony in this story. Remember, way, way back in the beginning, she said there's no irony in this story. There's nothing funny in it. Well, it's starting to sound funny. And then she goes to her telling voice. They let her back off the hook. He just had her against ropes really, really hard, but he lets her off the ropes, and she goes to that telling voice when she says, writing. I was writing. And here's where he, I think she's playing word games with them, which is when I think her brain is now back online, because she starts to parse facts with them when he says you researched, and she said, no, I was researching. I think she's using past tense as if she had completed it, and that's subtle. That's damn subtle, which means one of the things we know happens when you're under stress and you're feeling like you're on the ropes is you lose the ability to subtly use language. You call it loss of fluency, but we get to a point where we can barely even eke out facts. So I think there her brain is back and active. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so we've seen a lot of different nonverbal signals throughout all of these videos. Let's look for changes because we see a nonverbal indicator here that we've not seen in my mind anywhere else, and that is that she shows her bottom teeth quite pronounced. It's pretty quick. You're going to have to slow it down and look at each frame, but you get a few frames of that bottom teeth showing. That is a indicator of anger, I would say, and it's anger on. I've never have been to the gun range or it might be that gun range. I can't even read my own writing. So with that clear change and that we've never seen that before, something is up with that statement. Here's my bet. My bet is, yeah, she went there for a certain reason, and she was firing off a weapon or weapons for a certain reason, and there's a big bunch of lies around all of this, and she's angry that she's being caught out here, though there's just a glimpse of it. But that's a piece of body language that we haven't seen from her as of yet. Scott, what have you got on this one? All right. When the irony statement comes up, she shows disgust. One of the first things we heard her say was there was no irony in this. There's nothing happy about this. Here she's saying the irony in this is, she's saying there's irony in this. She's changed again. She's got so much out there, she can't remember what she said or what she's doing. She can't keep up with everything. She's, I was going to cover a lot of those things more. At the end again, she contradicts herself when she's talking about being obsessed with guns before she said she was and now she's not. So I'm sort of losing interest in her or whatever she has to say. I think probably a lot of people are there as well because it's just all kinds of different stuff. It's hard to keep up with. Greg, what do you got? Oh, no, I've already gone. I was just leaning in. But I will say this. I feel her pain about browser history. If I ever get in trouble, I look up or it's true crime crap. Oh, yeah. Are they going to ask us about it? I'm just going to say, yeah, man, he was weird. Because if I go get something, I think I'm worth it. I'm going to come back to that in a minute. But I believe your answer was that you did have the discovery. You reviewed it. Yes. Okay. And do you do realize or did realize that this slide barrel that was outstanding was a central issue in this case? Yes, probably eight months after my arrest. I realized that. Okay. And you understand that today? Yes. Now, you've testified, well, we've heard different things from your interview with the police and what you've said on the stand that you sort of hated guns. You didn't like them, but then you became interested in them for writing, then for safety. And then you seem to take quite an interest after that in guns. Is that safe to say? I would say the irony is that we bought a gun to protect us and it didn't protect us. I'm just asking about your interest in guns. My interest in guns were twofold. One is the protection, which it didn't work. And second is the writing, which has nothing to do with guns, but has to do with gun pieces. Right. But you said you became obsessed with firearms. I was obsessed with the writing and the gun pieces, not with firearms. Not with firearms. You know, I wasn't investigating AR-15s or shotguns or anything like that. Just clocks? Just a handgun that would protect my character. And you did a lot of research online? Not yet. I've started it. So you didn't you just testify? Like... That I started researching, that I research online all the time, but I wasn't finished researching by any stretch of the imagination. You had been to a gun show? Yes. Bought a gun? Yes. Bought a ghost gun? Went through that whole process. Right. When did you go to the gun range? I never have been to a gun range. Never been to a gun range. In fact, the company that you bought the gun through J&B Firearms, that's actually a gun store that's very close to your house, right? It turned out to be, yeah. They had recommended that you go to Threat Dynamics or that gun range that we've seen a couple of times. You never went to Threat Dynamics? Never. You've never gone to the Tri-County Gun Club? Is that the one that we keep talking about out on 26? No. Oh, well, no, I've never been there. Where are you going on the 26th when you're out near that gun range? Oh, on the two random days in March that we've been talking about off and on? Is that what you're asking me about now? Yes. Okay. Dan and I had decided that that was an area we wanted to look at. I'm driving around frequently out there trying to look to see if there's any property, anything that leaps out at us, anything that is all the requirements Dan has. The land has to be flat for gardening. The land has to be fairly treeless so that we don't have the shadow hanging over it. I know what he requires and I know what I need in the house. Isn't that state land out there? It is after fashion and that's why I didn't go all the way out to where you're saying it was. I went out after fashion, came back. You just drove out there randomly, were there less than a couple of minutes and then headed back to Portland on the 26th? I didn't do any of the, wait, let's stop. Ask your question to me again and let me see if I can. On the 26th, the first day, I believe it was on Monday. Right. While Dan was at work. Right. You drove out to that area. Right. And according to cell site location information, it appears that you drove out there, turned around and drove back. I don't think I drove that far out there. I mean, you know, I know that it's out there. I know because we've talked about it and talked about it and talked about it, but I have never, ever, ever been there. And if I had been going there, I would have gone there with Dan and I would have gone there with, we ended up at the closest I got to it. We had what, two minutes, 10 minutes that I could have spent there? I can think if I was just going out to fire a gun at dirt, that I could have found some place a whole lot closer to my house and driving an hour and a half to make that happen. You knew about that gun range? I had heard about the gun range from the J&B people. In fact, that's your handwriting, right? I don't know. I haven't seen that note in ages. So you knew it was there though? And I'm not sure that is my handwriting so I'm thinking about it. I think they wrote it down. Okay. But I can look at the note again and tell you. Let's not get lost in the weeds here. Okay. All right. Mark, where do you get? Yeah, so this is her gun range alibi. Again, we're back to big gestures that are out of her usual baseline of gestures. So we know she's under heat here. She's most likely lying. In fact, let's just say she's going to be lying at this point because the gestures are now too big. They're out there. They're leaving the frame. So that's definite deception from my point of view. And just one little one. She goes and covers her throat again. That alone. Supersternal notch. Supersternal notch. Yeah. There she goes for that. That's just a little additive for fun. But the big gestures are enough for me to go. You're making this stuff up. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, she right out of the gate conditions the question. You know, when he starts asking her about going to this place and she says, is that the one that... Well, come on. Who cares which one it is? You've been there, you haven't. And a better question. So here's where we get the questioning and why questioning matters. If you say have you ever been to this gun range, they get a chance to say yes or no and that conversation's over. But if I ask you, have you ever fired the gun? Well, if you say yes in my backyard, you have violated a city statute. I got you there. And if you say no, then I'll say, well, why was her residue? So look, there's a lot of things that allow you to be able to take it in another direction. The best way you would go is say, hey, when did you fire that gun? Where did you fire that gun? How did you fire that gun? How many times? And then you get lots of other opportunities to find information. Plus, they know it's been fired. They've got the gun. They can do all kinds of tests, know all kinds of things that she doesn't know. Again, she starts to condition the question. And then she gets to this point where she's talking about, I don't think I went there and if I did. And Mark, I think she's got this all scripted in her head, but she's in trouble. You're dead on. I mean, suddenly her arms come up, they start doing things she's not done yet. And when she starts to get the things that she wants to say, her hands come up. A lot of politicians, Joe Biden's one, but there are many others, career politicians, that when they hit prepared information, their hands start doing this. She actually starts to do it like a politician on the stump. And then she starts down the rabbit hole and she starts talking about, here we're getting an unpertinent. I went way out there. Well, isn't that state land? Well, yeah. And that's why I stopped short. Well, come on. She almost got misaligned from what she wanted to say because the questions are good. And that's why she keeps trying to do a reset. Then she says my favorite line of the entire thing. I never have. But if I did, he would have gone with me. I never have. I never have. She protects. You should lean into her really hard right then. But he misses that chance. And she starts to redirect again. Chase, what do you got? Yeah. Right when you hear her say, Oh, on those two random days in March, listen carefully. And she's introducing the concept of these days being random. This is an unconscious desire for us to also see the behavior on those days as completely random. Watch when these words are unusually injected into speech. I usually default to thinking something happened that's the opposite of that word. Whatever that word is, whatever it is, that's something concealing. So whatever it is there is random. So something very not random happened on those days because that word's being deliberately injected in there where it doesn't really belong. Her hands come up to start this story in a way that is both, I think, unnatural and is hesitancy. There's hesitancy there when her hands go back down. When a right hand falls onto a wrist, then begins this serious massage session. And by this, I mean she's self soothing and trying to just burn off excess energy here. Then there's ever, ever, ever been there. That's three repetitions there. This is another one of her classic repetitions. We've seen her do this a lot. And she's saying firing a gun at dirt, very, very specific. Is this a detail spike? I think so. This is where I think she went out there to do something very specific, which was not random. And I'm willing to bet something more happened here and it could potentially be meeting up with someone to maybe drop off, pick up something. You're not going to go into a range and shoot in 10 minutes in most ranges. Some ranges you could just walk in and start shooting and they don't charge you. It's pretty rare. Maybe there was a few bullets fired. You could definitely accomplish that in a couple of minutes. That's all I got. Scott. All right. You guys covered everything. And I'm not going to say anything that I haven't set up to this point. I'm still seeing all the same stuff, except for that mouth grooming she was doing. I think that's an adapter. She's using that to adapt because it is repetitive. And that's those repetitive, pacifying behaviors that we consider to be adapters to give her that built up stress retention. All right. Man, that's good, Mark. I think Greg meant it. In fact, the company that you bought the gun through J&B Firearms, that's actually a gun store that's very close to your house, right? It turned out to be, yeah. They had recommended that you go to Threat Dynamics or that gun range that we've seen a couple of times. You never went to Threat Dynamics? Never. You've never gone to the Tri-County Gun Club? Is that the one that we keep talking about out on 26? No. Oh, well, no, I've never been there. Where were you going on the 26 when you were out near that gun range? Oh, on the two random days in March that we've been talking about off and on? Is that what you're asking me about now? Yes. Okay. Dan and I had decided that that was an area we wanted to look at. I'm driving around frequently out there, trying to look to see if there's any property, anything that leaps out at us, anything that is all the requirements Dan has. The land has to be flat for gardening. The land has to be fairly treeless so that we don't have the shadow hanging over it. I know what he requires and I know what I need in the house. Isn't that state land out there? It is after fashion, and that's why I didn't go all the way out to where you're saying it was. I went out after fashion and came back. You just drove out there randomly were there less than a couple of minutes and then headed back to Portland on the 26th? I didn't do any of the... Wait, let's stop. Ask your question to me again and let me see if I can. On the 26th, the first day, I believe it was Monday. Right. While Dan was at work, you drove out to that area. Right. And according to cell site location information, it appears that you drove out there, turned around and drove back. I don't think I drove that far. Out there. I mean, you know, I don't... I know that it's out there. I know because we talked about it and talked about it and talked about it, but I have never, ever, ever been there. And if I had been going there, I would have gone there with Dan and I would have gone there with... We ended up at the closest I got to it. We had, what, two minutes, 10 minutes that I could have spent there. I can think if I was just going out to fire a gun at dirt, that I could have found someplace a whole lot closer to my house and driving an hour and a half to make that happen. You knew about that gun range? I had heard about the gun range from the J&B people. In fact, that's your handwriting, right? No, no, I haven't seen that note in ages. So you knew it was there, though. And I'm not sure that is my handwriting, so I'm thinking about it. I think they wrote it down, but I can look at the note again and tell you. Let's not get lost in the weeds here. Okay. You get up. You Google how to load a Glock 9 millimeter. You drive out to an area that... Wait, wait. I don't know that I Googled that, but if you say I did, I'd like to see that, but I could have. I mean, once again, I am messing with gun pieces. I am not messing with research. I am not messing with... So I could have put that in that morning if I had some spare time, because I don't think I gave up the gun research until the beginning of April, when I knew I had to get back and finish my other story. Part of the problem is, is if you don't finish the story you're on, then you have story pieces everywhere. And people say, what's the most difficult thing about writing a book? It's finishing the book. You have to force yourself to finish it. When you've written yourself into a whole, it's really easy to see a new idea out there that would be more interesting. You have to go back and force yourself. So yeah, I had a few months where I flirted with guns, but real frankly, my goal was to finish the book I was on. Okay, so in March, you are doing research at that point? I could be, yes. And can we go and put up States Exhibit 82? Sure. Go there to March 26th, 10.13 a.m., do you see that? Searching, loading a nine millimeter Glock. Okay. Immediately after that, searching, cleaning a Glock. Okay. And then you get in your car. Okay. Drive out to an area that has now been established is where that Wolf Creek gun range is. I don't want to put this back on. Okay, but I was, I can guarantee you that I wouldn't have gone that far. And the reason why is because that's all forested land and it's higher elevation than what Dan wanted. But I'm not going to tell you I wasn't out there because I probably was. You know, you've got video that shows my phone visited it. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, she's waiting at every turn to grab the story. And when she gets a natural breakpoint where he's asking her about looking something up and she gets a chance to chaff and redirect, she runs with it. She grabs and starts running with a line. He lets her run out of line and then locks her back down. Love that. But she adapts by self-grooming. She actually is playing with her hair at one point for the first time. She's in her element, though, when she's talking because she's milling her hands and running with that line. Then he shuts it down and locks her down. She then adapts by rubbing at these muscles that are stressed. These muscles in here that show stress and concern. And we often will touch them when we're feeling something. Then my favorite part of the whole thing, they tell her to look at something and she picks up her seeing eye mask and puts it on. She picks up a reading mask and puts it on. And she even says out loud, why did I put this thing on? Her brain is a worm on the griddle right now. She's spinning in circles. She's fried. Look, guys, this is one hour of a much longer thing. If you really want some entertainment, watch the rest of it. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I'll just cover a couple of things here. I think you're interesting. When she says, I gave up on the gun thing, what happened to being not finished shopping and not finished doing the research? She gave up on it, she said, and gave up on it. And I think the most classic line ever is in this video. And like, I didn't want to give up on it because you would have story pieces everywhere. This entire testimony is story pieces everywhere. So I think she needed a chance to complete the research on this, on what she was doing. She wanted a chance to complete the research on her alibi, on her story. And now she's, I think, unconsciously referring to exactly what's going on in her own testimony. There are story pieces everywhere. Mark? Yeah, couldn't agree more. Her brain is absolutely fried at this point. She's only an hour into it, which just suggests that you can't go into lying under these conditions at an amateur level. You're going to have to be much, much better to withstand what's happening. She feels that she's prepared. And really, she is not because she's already, well, her cognitive skills are right down. She's putting on a mask when she should be putting on glasses. And then she's realizing that later on. And so by the end of it, we see that her one hand is right inside the elbow there, protecting the joints there. She has cocooned at this point. It's pretty much all over for her, I would think. I haven't seen the rest of it. But I would think it's going to be difficult for her to recover from this point on. Maybe she does. Might be interesting to look. Scott, what do you got on this one? I agree. And here's what she's done. You're right, Chase. What she's describing is what has been happening to her. That's what she's talking about here is what's happened to her testimony. It's in pieces, like I've been saying the whole time. It's in all kinds of different pieces. And she can't keep track of everything. Now, she's with all these pieces everywhere. Since she can't gather them all up, what her brain goes to is what she talked about in there as well. She gets tired of it. You have to finish it. And you have to because you see something else that you want to create something else. Or you see something else you can work on, something else to be created with. That's what's happening. That's why her story as it goes along, it starts it starts busting up more and more because she's trying to fix these things, these little crappy answers she gave. She's making it bigger and better. She's qualifying, using qualifiers to make her story bigger and better. And it's getting out of hand with her. She can't keep it. Because like you guys all said, her brain is just as she's fried at this point. She says her brain is tired. She's reached the maximum capacity of she can't do anymore. That's it. She can't keep track of it. So it's getting out of hand. And I think a lot of this, again, I blame on her attorney for not staying with her and not connecting with her and saying, look, you got to do this. Here's how we do this. I think this a lot of that could have been avoided. But having said that, I think that attorney is smart enough to have worked in and set those same traps. I think she would have fallen into those traps as well. You get up. You Google how to load a Glock 9 millimeter. You drive out to an area that happens to you. Wait, wait. I don't know that I Googled that. But if you say I did, I'd like to see that. But I could have. I mean, once again, I am messing with gun pieces. I am not messing with research. I am not messing with... So I could have put that in that morning if I had some spare time. Because I don't think I gave up the gun research until the beginning of April, when I knew I had to get back and finish my other story. Part of the problem is, is if you don't finish the story you're on, then you have story pieces everywhere. And people say, what's the most difficult thing about writing a book? It's finishing the book. You have to force yourself to finish it. When you've written yourself into a whole, it's really easy to see a new idea out there that would be more interesting. You have to go back and force yourself. So yeah, I had a few months where I flirted with guns. But real frankly, my goal was to finish the book I was on. Okay, so in March you are doing research at that point? I could be, yes. And can we go and put up States Exhibit 82? Sure. Go there to March 26th, 10.13 a.m. Do you see that? Mm-hmm. Searching, loading a 9mm Glock. Okay. Immediately after that, searching, cleaning a Glock. Okay. And then you get in your car. Okay. Drive out to an area that has now been established is where that Wolf Creek gun range is. I don't want to put this back on. Okay, but I can guarantee you that I wouldn't have gone that far. And the reason why is because it's all forested land and it's higher elevation than what Dan wanted. But I'm not going to tell you I wasn't out there because I probably was. You know, you've got video that shows my phone visited it. Mark, what do you think we're seeing so far in this? Yeah, I think what we're really seeing here is how much you'd really have to prepare, how good you'd have to be. And also the amount of stress you'd have to be prepared for in order to be a good liar in this situation. I was just thinking, just then before you asked me, Scott, about the World Cup in England playing, and England, you know, we had a terrible penalty shoot out. And there was a guy there who he must practice all day, every day, shooting a ball into a goal, and he shot it right over the top. Something he does every day. Why did he do that? The stress of the situation. So you can practice and practice and practice your lies, but you have to practice them under stress. Because under stress, you're going to fall to bits. Chase, what do you see? I see the opposite of O.J. Simpson. O.J. Simpson wrote a book called If I Did It. And before this happened, she wrote a book that essentially was titled Somebody Did It. And we're kind of seeing the exact same thing in reverse. This entire case, I think, was a person thinking that she was maybe too brilliant to face up the law because she's written so many mysteries, and she's such a good writer. She even claimed to have amnesia as an excuse during her trial, which we didn't cover here today. And I think we'll see more books. I do think we'll see more books. I understand they aren't the best, but whenever she's able to release one from prison, I will personally read it because I can't wait. I think there's going to be some parallel metaphors up in there. Greg? Yeah, so they say if you took enough chimpanzees, gave them typewriters and enough time, they could randomly write war and peace. There's a corollary to that. If you are being interrogated or you're on the stand and you keep talking, there are only so many words in the English language, and in each of our lexicons even fewer, you will eventually, by negative and by 360, paint the picture of what has happened. So one piece of advice. Shut up. That's the best thing you can possibly do when you're being interrogated. And if you don't know if your client is good on the stand, but she talks this much, this is real easy. This person stood up there and gave you so much information that, and this is in one hour, imagine what average people are thinking sitting there. Scott, what do you got? Yeah, I really like this one because we see her just slowly fall apart. It's like with those spaceships coming or the satellites coming in. The satellites come in from space and they start breaking up in the atmosphere and things just start falling off of them. This starts getting bigger and bigger. That's exactly what happened. And that other attorney was able to get in there and grab, oh, there's that, there's that. Let me see that and puts them all together and saves them up. He goes, well, you said this. Oh, yeah. Well, you said this too. What about that? And she can't defend it. She's just flopping around in there. Her brain is spent. So she's got nothing left to fight with. And I think that's a great example of that. It's a wonderful example of it. All right, fellas, I think this is another good one and we'll see you next time. So what do you got?