 Welcome to Clock Talk. I'm Crystal here, breaking boundaries, continuing to transcend conversations around gender, culture, race, everything. And, you know, today we're still celebrating kind of the International Transgender Day of Visibility and also kind of the ongoing lack of visibility or kind of just, I think we need to normalize conversations around gender in different ways that actually embrace cultural differences. And so, I have a wonderful guest here who is an athlete, a boundary breaker, an agenda fluid advocate, a TEDx speaker, scholar, poet, but I love the professional bodybuilder aspect of this. So, let me just welcome my wonderful guest, Siu-Fong Siu-Fong-Long. Welcome to Clock Talk. Yes, I'm so glad to be here. Hi, everyone. So, I understand you are at Emory right now. You're doing your PhD in the Women's Gender and Sexuality Program. Do you want to kick it off by just letting us know why and what areas are you studying and how this is relevant to your life and to our conversation? Yes, of course. So, I came to America three years ago in 2021. Yes, from Hong Kong to Emory. So, I'm in Atlanta right now in the south. And I take the program of Women's Gender Sexuality Studies because I've always been very interested in topics in relation to gender. I've been advocating on gender and gender fluidity in general when I was in Hong Kong and even when I'm in America right now. And so, I think this is a perfect program for me. And I take Emory because of very practical reasons because they gave me an offer. Okay, that's really it. It allowed me to work on things that I love. Right now, I'm in the process of preparing my prospectus for my oral defense. So, prospectus is more like a proposal for your research for my dissertation after two years of course work. So, I am interested in particular thinking with gender and sports and in particular thinking with, you know, now we call it a non-binary gender division in sports, especially in Asia because a lot of conversation has been focused in America, especially, you know, on, you know, banning trans woman athletes in sports and sports. And so, I'm interested in something else that I'm interested in community sports events that have a non-binary gender category and in the arena of Asia. So, in particular, I look into bodybuilding because this is a sport I love. This is a sport I play and this is a sport that I think has the potential to really transcend what we typically think of gender and gender boundaries. Okay. So, I want to talk about like the performance of the body in terms of, you know, your research and in terms of how the world perceives the body. Okay. So, let's talk about, so let me just give you a little bit of background too because I was at the University of Hawaii and I did my PhD in performance studies. And so, I was looking into in-between spaces like things, how do things perform? How does gender perform, right? How does the body perform and how does it embody history and culture? And so, for you, you embody a very interesting mix of your Asian culture, you know, your Chinese culture and the ideas of being gender fluid. And then you've got on top of that is bodybuilding world that is a very niche world that is not for everyone and it's a spectacle of the body and yet people are judging you based on your pure physical appearance and performance and poses which determines or maybe shapes the way we think about bodybuilders. I don't know. So, tell me a little bit about you in Hong Kong or in Asia generally. What are the kind of attitudes about bodybuilding? Is there kind of a growing trend in bodybuilding and what types of people tend to appreciate the sport? I think you asked the right person, really. I'm not only a bodybuilder myself, I'm also a posting coach myself. So, in fact, I was actually doing some posting section with some of my students in Hong Kong. So, we were doing Zoom basically. So, yes, I had to agree that, you know, bodybuilding is a very, you know, visual sport, but it's also a very aesthetic sport. So, that's why I'm particularly drawn to this sport because it's so visual in the sense that you cannot escape from that visual spectacle aspect of it. And I think, you know, if you ask me about the bodybuilding scene in general in Asia, it is definitely a growing market, especially in China and also in India. So, I think, you know, this are the two places where bodybuilding is growing very fast, especially with fans. So, in terms of competitors, I think, you know, in general, there is just an increasing number of people getting involved in bodybuilding. And a lot of them were like primarily interested in fitness, you know, going to the gym, get fit. And I think we have this, I mean, in Hong Kong or in Asia, in general, there's a growing trend of, you know, you know, taking care of your health, right? Taking care of your body. COVID, you know, there's an increasing awareness of the importance of health and fitness, right? Yes. I think, and especially, I think in Hong Kong, the most, you know, during COVID and slightly before COVID, there's also a changing, I would say, changing trend in terms of the fitness industry itself. So, previously, we have like large commercial gyms dominating the, and dominating the gyms, you know, membership, you know, in general. Do you remember California Fitness? Was that like one of the only gyms in Hong Kong? Yes. It was one of the only. And I had been, you know, my first gym was at California. And, you know, and then it went down, right? And then it was replaced by a few other hot breathes, but it doesn't really work well. And I think that also changes. Like people mindset were like, you know, we don't want to be, we don't want to be like, you know, being, we don't want to be, to experience, you know, the chastening of people, you know, trying to sell you stuff, you know, it was, you know, very disturbing and annoying. Especially for people who are gender non-conforming. It's a particular part. I had a lot of encounters, you know, because of my gender, because of how I look, basically. For example, what does that mean? Like, I mean, was there assault? Is there just kind of a verbal abuse? Or is it just feeling uncomfortable, making you feel like you shouldn't be here? Or what do you mean? Yeah, all of the about, I would say. Yeah. So, I mean, you mentioned about my TED Talk. My TED Talk actually did mention about some of these experiences in the changing room. Of course, like, I look into a more, like a more transformative, positive experience, but it was... Which changing room were you at at that time? Because I don't know your transition process. So kind of give me a little background of that. Yeah, of course. So I'm a signed female at birth, and then I do not... I didn't do any types of surgery, and I have no desire to do any surgeries. And I would say I identified as a non-binary person or gender fluid, meaning that I don't really particularly see myself within the gender binary of male and female, but I'm socially more, I would say, masculine. So, you know, on a daily social basis, people tend to perceive me as a man. But when I compete, I compete in the women's. So, yeah. So when I go through the change, so it's also very interesting because I was in Hong Kong mostly because of practical reasons, because the bodybuilding community knew about me as a female bodybuilder. So I would go to male changing rooms. But you can also imagine because of how I look, you know, in terms of my muscularity. Well, I didn't grow my beard at that time. So, you know, but still, you know, being very muscular and look like a guy, going to changing room is a disaster for me. Yeah. But especially like in the changing room, most people are, you know, but they are just typical, you know, gym goers, a lot of them are aunties. They have no... I have never seen... They're not in the bodybuilding scene. So they never see people like myself. Like, you know, I've never seen a muscular woman in their life. So I think that's the... That's when, you know, a lot of this stick must come in, you know, and when you ask me what are the... What were the experiences? All of the, you know, negative experiences that you can imagine, I had some sort of experience. Like people would shout at me, like women would shout at me, scream at me, call police. You know, they would open my curtain when I shower. To change who I am. Yeah. And when I wear a sports bra, they would say, your breast is not real. You have a man's chest, you know. Even when I was wearing, obviously, a sports bra in shorts. Yeah. And I also had staff, you know, being very rude to me, you know, multiple times. Yeah. And they know who I am, but they try to be mean. But sometimes they don't know about me at all. And I have been banned membership. There were ones that... Well, if you were banned a membership because of your gender, or because they thought you were abusing the rules of the club. Well, of course, they won't say very clearly. So this was this time when I was trying to go to a new gym. So I wanted to get a membership at a new gym, which I like it a lot. So I went there once, you know, I just wear... Make sure I wear feminine, you know, like wear all the sports bra, you know, the female, whatever, you know, vast, you know, pink color, you know. Make sure people won't have a woman. It's when you have to use that to perform what you think, how you're going to fit into society, though, right? Yes, but it doesn't always work. So that time, I do everything I think, you know, to make me look like a woman more. Then I was there for a trial. And then I was like, I love the gym. I want to, you know, I want to be a member of it. And then, you know, some of these staff were like, you know, they tell me under the table. They don't even tell me in the face. So they tell me... So Chinese though, right? Yeah. Yeah. So they told my coach that if I want to sign up for this gym, I need to wear long sleeves. I need to pull everything long sleeves. That would not go down. Yeah. Everything is so discriminating. Yeah. They would be in so much trouble. Exactly. And they were like, you know, their reason was like, because I'm too muscular that I would be intimidating their personal coaches. Okay. A gender reason. Because, you know, obviously a gender discrimination. Yeah. Right. Well, you know, I was like, I don't, I'm not gonna do this gym. So I would just go to a gym that welcomes me. And fortunately, I had another gym at that time. And he was, you know, the gym, I told the gym owner the first time I went there, all my situation. I look, I know I look like a guy, but I go to the female changing room. Are you okay with that? You know, like, And then he put it out in the front. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Then he was, you know, he is also, he doesn't compete, but he's a bodybuilder himself. And so it was like, of course, you know, everywhere from you. And a lot of times he defend me when people were, you know, pan about my, my, my presence in the changing room. So it's always down to being able to find a place that welcomes you and respects you, you know, as an athlete. There's a lot of blurry space with that because then it's not everybody who has these certain binary, very specific black and white views. Can I go back to the idea of the performance space? Because you mentioned that you perform, I mean, you compete as, as a woman, but you identify as non binary or gender fluid. And I don't know, I'm sure you're aware of that film, Change in the Games, which came out in 2019 about these high school sports athletes. And they follow three different high school trends kids who compete in sports and the whole controversy. And of course, this is the US, right? So you mentioned earlier that in the US, there's a lot of talk about who can compete where if you were assigned that gender, you should be competing in that. But so here's the blurriness, right? You are technically female with female body parts. So you can enter in the female category. But is there any pushback with all those competing, you know, requirements about where the hormones take place? Because, you know, even in like Olympic sports, hormone does not something that is accepted, right? Yeah, that's a really good question. So first of all, I would say bodybuilding is such a different sport. So I think it's one of the reasons why it is not an Olympic sport. It tried to be an Olympic sport. It never really succeeded because basically everyone even, you know, elite women bodybuilders, they all use steroids to a certain extent. That's so we know female bodybuilders, you know, in order to get to that competitive level, everyone uses testosterone and steroids to a different extent. And I think more recently, the whole bodybuilding community, the elite bodybuilding community are much more open with really talking about steroids, especially men. Women are still kind of a stigma, but even, you know, and so a lot of times you see women in a way to say performing, a lot of times women bodybuilders, the muscular they are, the more they try to go feminine, like, you know, they would go to the extent of doing breast implants and laser removal so that they would never grow hair, you know, or face or wherever. And they would also do breast implants because, you know, we train so much with our chest that it turns the fat into muscles. So we don't love, we don't no longer have those fat tissues around our brain, right? So they would do like breast implants so that they would look more feminine. They would always, you know, they would do nails like I never do nails when I get to the gym because it would just break off. But I didn't know how they can do it. But they did heavy with their own nails. So all things, right? And they were make up, make sure they weren't make up. Yeah. That's a lot of like performance and I think anxiety around muscularity because muscularity is often seen as, you know, a virtual of like masculinity. And I think female boxers are actually breaking that boundaries itself, even though they try to perform femininity, right? They're trying to break that, you know, that stereotype that, you know, muscularity has to be associated with masculinity. That's a great point. And I think how do we break those? So who defines why, how the feminine is feminine and the masculine is the masculine, right? You know, who built these structures that we're trying to work our lives within? And how do we break those boundaries? And you're saying that, you know, bodybuilding is that space that really kind of transcends the defining categories in a very strange way. Yeah, but I mean, I think my also my research, I'm also not looking into what transcends. I think it's always very, it's very contradictory. I feel sport itself is very contradictory. On one hand, you know, it really allows women to be muscular, that our sport allows women to be muscular and really break through kind of the human limits of what we think a female body could do. But at the same time, our bodybuilding competition itself is very regulatory, right? It has a very straight, like women have to wear bikini, women has to wear bikini, women has to showcase their what we call femininity age. So do you think that sexist in itself, those regulatory established roles, do you think there's sexist? That's a very good question. I don't, I didn't see it from a sexist perspective. I see it as more of, for me, as an experiment, like, you know, I have been a very, I've seen, I mean, I see myself as a pretty masculine person, like I'm more, even though I don't necessarily see myself as a man in general. But I know people perceive me as a man in, in a daily, on the daily life basis. So why, I'm sorry, why do you compete in the woman's category then and not the man? That's because I don't identify as a man as well. Okay. All right. So, but I know I look like a man because of my muscles. Right. And because I don't necessarily like to wear makeup every day. Right. For the performance of that competition, right? I mean, I love, but I really enjoy performing femininity on stage. I think that is something that really, I mean, once I experienced that, at first I didn't know whether I like it enough, but once I experienced that, I was like, I really enjoyed that, but it doesn't mean that I wanted to do, I want to do it every day. But that's ironic. You're saying performing femininity on stage and yet it's through a bodybuilding competition, which is kind of really contradicting. Like you said, the masculinity and the muscularity, that kind of relationship is really on display. But yeah, I think it's much more complicated, right? So I mean, even scholars actually look into female bodybuilding, they would always say, it's very paradoxical, it's a very paradoxical sport. It's a sport where women can be however big they are and kind of defy that the notion that muscularity has to associate with masculinity. But at the same time, we are also contradicting ourselves by performing femininity. So I think that, but I think the contradiction itself is actually the best thing. Yeah, I love it. It's not gonna be just always towards liberation. We're not always moving from a very liberal, progressive way. We move back and forth, right? It's the validity you're talking about, right? Yes, that movement. I think it's like really moving back and forth, this and that. And I think that is the beauty of it. Yeah, and resisting binaries. And that's the whole thing about gender, women, and sexuality studies is acknowledging that we have a multiple perspective and multi-layers in our existence that we don't have to reduce ourselves to one or the other, right? Which is something that society has kind of bought us wrongly, I think. Yeah, I entirely embrace the notion that we are very multiple. And then we are very contextual, right? From a very practical concern, you know, especially for example, in the US, I feel safer being seen as an Asian man than an Asian woman, right? And to say an Asian mask to the woman, right? That would even create even more, you know, danger for me. So, you know, it's a very practical concern on, you know, how white men should look like, how I look like, right? So I think it's very contextual, right? So it's not just like, okay, it's not just, I think, you know, sometimes our idea about gender identity that I feel like I am something is a little bit too simplistic, right? I think we are more multiple and there are a lot of practical concerns, right? The practical concerns about safety, about being especially, I think, in the, you know, in the US, you know, being seen as an Asian woman, you know, an Asian muscular woman is that could be very dangerous, especially with point because you're bringing out the kind of the existing reality of the violence against trans bodies in the US, which is, you know, increasing, but also bringing the attention to the idea of performing gender that, you know, we put on clothes, not just for who we identify with, but your point is we actually have to kind of be aware and conscious of how we're being perceived in certain societies, really just for the safety reason too, and acceptance. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for acceptance, right? So for me, because I look muscular and I think, you know, there's an also this aspect of like, you know, where we talk about intersectionality, right? This aspect of East was never really an issue when I was in Hong Kong because, you know, that was not really something that, you know, we're concerned about. But then when I'm in America, like there's always a famous saying to say, you only become a person of color when you enter America. I didn't feel that way when I was in Hong Kong until I was fat, yeah. Yeah, it's, you know, and I have more concerns, right? You know, especially, you know, with all the COVID, right? The whole COVID. Oh, and all that, yeah. How people see Asian bodies and Asian people in general. And so I think, you know, there is this, you know, very practical concern here about safety, about survival. And, you know, I mean, honestly, in a gym setting, which is very masculine and hetero masculine space, if you are seen, if you are being perceived as a man, it's easy. I mean, I think at least it erases a lot of, you can say hetero sexes cases from. Because I can see, you know, some of these Asian woman friends of mine that, you know, when they're at the gym, you know, they're very conscious of them being women because, you know, being a woman, you know, and surrounded in a very masculine space, they have to perfect in a certain way. But, you know, because I can be very comfortable being, you know, seen as a man. And, you know, go, I mean, in marriage, I go to the male changing room because, you know, no one cares. And that is just easier because I'm like liberating. Yeah. Yeah. And so for that, you know, it actually, you know, takes me or takes away that kind of anxiety that I repeat gym, you know, being gays as a woman, right? I can just work out much more concentrate, much more focused through my training itself. That's great. Can we go back? Sorry. I mean, because I know we're not, we're going to run out of time in a few minutes, but going back to your Hong Kong time, when you were bodybuilding there, can you also discuss or share a little bit more about your family context, like how did your family treat you and what your transition process and how much the Hong Kong society or cultural stigmas with the rooted patriarchal Chinese kind of system kind of informed how you had to navigate, you know, your process. Yeah. So my parents were very against me when I first started bodybuilding. When was that? That was around like 2014, so around 10 years ago, when I first started bodybuilding. And so, at that time, I never, okay, so I never came out as a trans or as a non-binary person at all. I mean, in fact, I never really came out as a lesbian when I was younger too. Like, is that, why are you girls when you were growing up? I mostly did. Yeah. So, but I'm sexual. So in Hong Kong, I usually date women. So I would bring women and open girlfriends home and that's my friend, you know, but then, you know, your parents, they kind of know and know that you're not going to change in a person. Yeah. So, but then it never really come out. So I think, you know, the coming out story, the coming out context, a lot of time for me is very Western. It's a very Western idea. I think in a context, a lot of times, you know, people just, you know, your parents just slowly know, and they don't necessarily have to say that out and never really say that out. So they see, they saw news and stuff about me and they start to get it, what's going on with me. And so my mom at the very beginning, she was very against me doing bodybuilding. She always tell me that, you know, muscles on women are very ugly. And then she would, you know, try to try to persuade all our relatives that I'm ugly because of the muscles. So that, you know, they kind of would, probably would, you know, I don't know, give some pressure on me, which didn't really work. Yeah. And so, but, but then my mom was actually my first family member who actually came to my competition. And after the competition, she actually, I mean, I get fourth in that competition. And I still remember, you know, very vividly, like the first thing she saw me and told me backstage was like, I think you should win because you are the most muscular woman on stage. So I think she accepted me, you know, after she saw me on ageing compete. I should never really complain about my muscles anymore. She kind of needed a change, you know, she just, you know, make sure, you know, I eat well and my parents and my family there. A parent wants to be healthy and happy. But were you taking hormones for your gender identity? Or were you taking on top of steroids? Like, how does that, are they similar? Or are they, you know, how does that work? Yeah, that's a really good question. I started with like steroids and testosterone because of bodybuilding. And I mean, I mean, of course, they're overlapping. So, you know, I also do it in there. So I would say a lot of times like trans people, if they take, if they transition from female to male, a lot of times they take testosterone and they usually take even testosterone, there are multiple types. There's lasting, long lasting ones. It means how long is they're going to stay in your body. And they will have good effects on you when you are, whether you're when you're building muscles. So the last thing one that usually for once to, you know, to bulk and build muscle for a long term, the shorter, shorter kind of testosterone will be used for cutting, where we are cutting and ready to get on, ready to get on stage. And on top of that, that bodybuilding has different types of other steroids. Some help you to make you more vascular. Some help you to make your muscle look farther. Some make your skins, you know, help some of like fat losing stuff. So that different combination requires really, you know, knowledge about that. You need to have a code who really understand the most, especially women's body because women's and men's, even though we are trying to talk about gender fluidity, biologically, we also have slightly different structure, right? Men and women or whatever bodies. And so you have to have someone who is knowledgeable enough to be able to help you with, you know, you are not using the same dose age for one else. You should be able to. So how did it affect you in your, I guess, female physical body? Like, did you, when did you stop menstruating at a certain point because of even the steroids? Or is that the more the testosterone things that affect that? I think both, right? So a lot of like women competitors who never use testosterone, some never use testosterone, but they would use other types of fat losing, whatever chemicals, whatever that is. And when your body and also when they're even if they're natural, meaning that they don't use any steroids, at a certain point when your body fat is very low, your body stop menstruating. It's almost like a fight of like mode where your body stopped working anything extra for that. So it would also happen. So, you know, the menstruation and basically, yes, the menstruation itself, it will actually, you know, happen in all types of women, whether they use testosterone or not. But typically if you have been using testosterone continuously for a short period of time, few ones usually then a lot of people would actually start menstruating. Hmm. Okay. So that's a lot of like scientific kind of physical things, but to just bring it back to really the there are beginning conversation about the performance of the body, the spectacle of bodybuilding. What would you have to say to our listeners about, you know, breaking boundaries in their own sense? Like, you know, a lot of people maybe are deprived of certain activities because of social pressures or maybe feeling not comfortable in their own body. You know, what are some of your tips or suggestions and how to embrace your body and to go for what it is that you're meant to do? I think there are two things, right? First of all, is to trust your instinct. You know, if you see something, if you see like I was first inspired by a female power lifter when I was 15. I saw randomly on the news and I was like, that's it. I want to be like her one day. And I trust my instinct, you know, even though it takes me almost five, five more years before I really stop bodybuilding, I always wanted to do bodybuilding. There are different stuff happening that I cannot. So I do marathon running. I do rowing. I do dragonboating. I realized that my passion was really on bodybuilding. So if I trust my instinct 10 years later, it would be a very different story. So I think, you know, trust your instinct is always very useful. The other thing, the other point is a little bit cliche, but I would say, you know, Billy, once you know who you are, just be yourself. You know, it's hard given the societal constrictions and everything, but you know, but then don't remember that, you know, you are never the only one and you are not the first one. So there will all be people who will be for you or has been, you know, suffering in a much more, you know, bad conditions. And yeah, they were able to flourish. So you will be able to do that too. So I think that are the two, you know, models for me when I'm down. We needed to hear that. And I think, you know, from an Asian context, struggling with a lot of kind of cultural stigmas and pressures from family, we needed to hear that from you because you're, you are living that, that success now, you know, and we wish you all the luck in your, the pursuit of your PhD, your continual advocacy for gender fluidity and just everything about how you embrace life and bringing in the creative, the physical, the academic, the poetic, everything that you embody. So thank you so much. This is the Siu Fung Law, chiming in all the way from Atlanta and until, yeah, right? Yes. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me here. Thank you. That was amazing.