 Myles Sur, Myles the facilitator for CIO chat and that offers executive and level participants from around the world and Also as a weekly column at CIO.com. So Myles and Martin, please take it away So, you know one of the things I really liked that you talked about today Martin was this notion of the architect moving From back office to front office to actually product value props When you've done your research With MIT scissor, you know, what have you seen the biggest differences between organizations that are becoming Digital natives or are digital natives and those legacy businesses that are out there. Yeah That's a great question so if you really mean digital natives here, we mostly study what we call big old companies traditional companies and We do look at Digital native born digital companies hoping to find that traditional companies can learn so much from them But then we find out that isn't always the case, but from an architectural perspective there There are huge differences. So for example, if you're a born digital company, especially if you're a small company Then you start with one digital offering and then at some point you realize oh my gosh We have to rearchitect the basis of that offering and so you start building a digital platform And they are not as worried about the operational backbone That comes last for them typically big old companies though have started with the operational backbone For decades and are now starting to develop digital offerings in order to also become a Digital company. I wouldn't call them digital natives then and that's what makes digital transformation so so new Born digital companies though, of course at some time We'll get where the traditional companies are and create a mess in their Processes and they're in their their their systems So that will definitely happen You know open group has a lot of recommendations on open standards and things like that You know, there are you know, one of things you talked about was this notion of an external developer You know platform I love the example in the book about DBS Bank I got to meet with a while back and how somebody came up with a whole new application for an ATM system So could you talk a little bit about how you don't have to develop it all your own? Yeah, sure Of course, I have to say a caveat in the beginning here in our survey That we did now it's almost two years old though things could have changed But they always change slower than we think and hope Only 13 percent of companies that big old companies traditional companies had a mature external developer platform This is early days if you look at that partner magic quadrant from 2019 of multi-industry In the industrial Internet of Things platforms nobody was in the leadership quadrant So this area is clearly up for grabs. I have to say It's going to be challenging for Individual within an industry type companies like Philips right being in in healthcare to establish themselves as the standard simply because They're one of the competitors Within healthcare in this case and customers typically want an aggregator like we don't want a Platform that only provides us songs from Universal music we want a platform that provides songs by Universal Sony Warner and all the indies and and that's why we have these Aggregators like Spotify right and so that's the same with external developer platforms If you're not a tech company, you will have to form a convert film I guess doing this on your own is going to be pretty difficult Yeah, it's tough for companies to rethink the model and say You know Stephanie best is written about this as well about how you know You can you can you don't have to have everything in fact Maybe you have your competitors offerings alongside your offering so you provide a complete offering with marketplace Yeah, it's unavoidable unless you think that you can provide all offerings and all Solutions to all your customers problems all by yourself and you have the smartest people And you can do the best and that is to say that out loud sounds ridiculous So yeah, there is no way to avoid that. It's just really early days and you need the other very box. Yeah Yeah, well, I mean you talked a little bit about you know a new role for the enterprise architect I mean a lot of enterprise architects have been focused in the past on just getting an operational back bone going You know so you can standardize processes in standardize how they all connect together What's the enterprise architects role as you build for a digital platform? Yeah, so just to say a few words about the operational backbone there I think that is the reality for many large companies that kind of enterprise architects have focused on the operational backbone The aspiration and for some absolutely the reality don't get me wrong has always been much broader namely to architect the enterprise that is the idea of enterprise architecture and We will continue by the way to require brilliant architects in the area of the operational backbone and of processes But I think there's a chance Right now indeed To broaden that reality towards the aspiration right simply because of the need to redesign and to Think holistically across silos if you're going into digital offerings and and that's clearly a strength of architects and Yeah, I'm making it pretty pretty black and white here, but building a digital platform is much less top-down Compared to introducing what you just said Introducing global standards for example Because you don't know which functionality is shared It's more like tending to a coral reef that is Evolving rather than building a formal garden and laying out This is how this is going to work. And so that's a pretty different role that you have and it's it can be pretty terrifying You Know as you look at it open groups been think doing a lot of thinking historically in their it for it group on Value stream thinking they've been starting to work on notions of digital products and things Standards So, you know, how how does what you've been talking about kind of fit with that? And can we get a couple of your PhD students to work on some of these standards with us? I love the underlying idea. I didn't hear everything you said, but I heard a few bits and pieces there I love the underlying idea of having it in business merch, right? And by the way, the fact that we keep saying business IT shows we aren't quite there yet Some leaders actually that we talked to talk about this DevOps And yeah, so I think that's a great idea to merge them You have to be careful about what you're merging there though and what it supports On the one end if it's typically most companies you have these two parts of technology one at least One is the classic IT and the other one is the new digital They might be reporting to the same person, but they are very very different. And so the question is are you merging? Kind of the classic IT With the business part or are you merging the digital part with digital offer that supports digital offerings? Are you merging that with the business? Hopefully we'll be able to do both, but I don't see that happening a lot. I have to say He's not in big mothership companies I do see that in smaller businesses for example at Audi at Audi business innovation there It's difficult to tell kind of business and IT apart Great these were fantastic questions and I know that our audience has a bunch of questions They would like to ask so I'm going to turn it back to Dave and I believe Dave is going to Deal with some of the questions from the audience. Is that correct everyone? Yep, that's that is correct. Thank you and Martin. I'm very conscious of your time. We'll try to keep this quick First one I'll ask here is so one of interest to many of the architects in the audience Of course, you know togaff has what we sometimes refer to as the crop circle the phases that you go through How do you see those correlating with you know both the building blocks that you identify in The design for digital or the processes that that companies go through Yeah, they're moved to digital. Yeah, so of course Genie since I was thinking about how do we how do we relate this to existing? frameworks and standards like togaff and One of the things we do realize is that the moment business executives Hear the term architecture They start rolling their eyes many times and so this is why we didn't connect it explicitly actually to any of the standards They are great. Don't get me wrong, right? They help a lot. It is just that our Mission here was I think that we saw what the time is is Right is the point in time where we need to get business executives engaged in redesigning their businesses and so What we designed there is a much higher level So to say if you want kind of like this is the kind of things that you need to think about if you want to achieve This year and I think this links pretty well though If you want to operationalize this to to other centers like togaff Great One of the things we've seen is and this is very clear in the CIS our case studies is how financial services is Really buying into this? Digitization and digital digitization and digital transformation Do you what do you think are some goody? I had the question was which bank is in your knowledge is the most advanced digital transformation But maybe we can also ask, you know, what are the practices you see in banks that that are helping them do digital transformation? Great question. We ever asked a question I'm in love. I shouldn't say that as a researcher But I kind of we we looked at what with two banks and they themselves don't do themselves So if anyone is in the audience from those companies, it's one is USA a and the other one is DBS miles already mentioned DBS What I what I really like about USA a is that they are thinking Customer first and they don't do a digital transformation just to become digital. But for example, they're moving to Into live events. Hey, let's let's not think how we organize how we are organized But let's think in terms of problems of customers is kind of the definition of a digital offering. How can we solve a customer's problem? I'm buying a house right now and man, I would love to have USA a life events that help you with buying a house I can I can say that They're doing pretty well from my perspective if you ask people USA, they've always stuff to complain about That's also part of the most successful companies. They're never happy with what they're doing And so one we're on the subject of banks and best practices You know one of the things that stood out to me in the CIS our case studies and notably DBS with their digitified bill Which I'll always remember And we heard yesterday from Fidelity that they are dedicating 20% they call it 20% Tuesday To on staff training so what what's your view on you know looking beyond the architects and the product managers here? How do you see? digital awareness and and and digital skills for the workforce as a whole being important in digital transformation. Oh My gosh, they are really important So it's not enough to have the executive committee or the architects Who violently agree on what needs to be done kind of in a digital mindset indeed? So this is about getting 20,000 people or more Or much more to think and work in a different way The way what we do see though is that that's a number of companies and you agree is one of them And they say we are not going to do this with a broad change management effort But we are going to do this initiative by initiative We're trying to involve as many people as possible in of what it means to actually develop a digital offering and the way this works because the moment People go through a very different way of working a testing and learning working together with your customer An agile way for example a design thinking workshop. They become multipliers to this and tell other people about how Effective this actually is and that truly helps. So I heard earlier in your talk start small And I guess that is indeed you can't you can't transform a company of 120,000 people Top down that this just won't work. Yeah, right. So we'll do one more question I don't think we're gonna get to all the questions. So if there's any Absolutely, absolutely So in order to lead a digital transformation of the company, which which role should the leader role be is it the EA? Is it a marketing? Is it the IT guy the CIO? Is it the business lead? Any any common patterns there what and what which one is the one that works best to become a digital company? Well, I have to say if the business leadership takes on that role and then Everything else becomes so much easier if it's IT if it's the enterprise architects who get this anyway You are fighting an uphill battle You have to convince people of a sense of urgency that you actually have to do this And so if the business realizes that this is actually not our technology But that this is about business strategy and about realizing their mission actually with the use of digital technologies You are already well, I'm going to just say halfway there You're probably not half right there But that is the best start. So if it's a business leader who's actually picking this up. Oh my gosh, then You're in a great position Yeah, there was a great quote from one of the CSR case studies that you know Once you once you start talking about the business you've already gone off the track Yeah, so if they're separate here, you're done without great stuff. Anyway, I think I know we've run quite a bit over here so I think I'll hand it back to Steve Nunn and Thank you very much Martin Great inspirational stuff as always and hope to see you again soon at the open group Thank you everyone