 Welcome to Think Tech Hawaii. Happy afternoon if you're here in Hawaii evening or morning if you're somewhere else. Thanks so much for joining us and we're looking forward to a good session today with Tina Patterson, very experienced mediator, arbitrator, business coaching consultant and advisor and entrepreneur in Germantown, Maryland and David Louis, senior experience litigation attorney, mediator and former attorney general of the state of Hawaii. And that's very relevant today to today's topic. Where are the most needed legal reforms? Where would you want to see changes? Hey David, we talked a little bit if you had a short list of things you really want to see different and fixed better. What would be at the top of the list for you? Right now, at least on a national level, my thought was that the Voting Rights Act needs to be reinstated and that quite frankly, I think the body of law of the federal government previously making sure that gerrymandering was stopped, making sure that majorities could not impose tyrannies and making sure that the voices of minorities were heard in the voting sphere, that those are really important. I'm very worried about where the country is going on that thing right now where the Supreme Court is supporting the gutting. It gutted the Voting Rights Act and it is allowing various states, in the name of states rights, which was the support for a lot of discrimination historically and is allowing that sort of thought pattern to go forward and gain strength. And so I'm very concerned about that. That's right on the mark and we know that coming into the 2022 elections, there are 27 states that have Trump GOP supported candidates running to head the elections in those 27 states with a history of conduct and behaviors and attitudes that would not respect the election of the majority. Tina, what would be at the top of your list? I agree with David on the Voting Rights Act, but I'm going to go in a different direction. I'd like to talk about environmental law and social justice, especially for communities that have long suffered, whether that is a result of chemical dumping or other impacts in the community that were done to the soil or to the water. I would like for us to, as far as reform, talk about how are we going to provide social justice? What does that look like? Is it in providing healthcare? Is it a matter of better education? Is it a matter of trying to remediate the soil, the water, or is it actually saying, you know what, this space is no longer livable. How do we help move you to another location? And what does that mean? I mean, there's another part to that, especially if there's ancestral lands or funerary objects. Do those objects go as well? So that's the first that comes to mind and I will give it back to you, Chuck. No, that's a great place to start because it impacts directly communities of people who have long been undervalued, underserved, underrepresented, which ties back into the voting protections as well. In fact, one of the things, as David inferred, it's not just a charity of majority that we're worried about, but possibly a tyranny of a minority, which holds political powers and economic powers that may make that possible. So how do those things impact those indigenous and minority communities that have been undervalued, underrepresented, underserved? Well, I mean, the power to choose who gets to make the laws and who gets to sit in the seats of power to make executive decisions is huge. And if the rules are set up so that you can't elect people of color, you can't elect people who may have the majority view, but they are out of power and not in favor, then it becomes very difficult. And quite frankly, we are seeing these tyrannies. And, you know, I mean, things are a lot more fraught these days on a national level. People are very free about their opinions and they want it to be like they want it. And they want to roll back the clock in many ways to avoid some of the social justice initiatives that have come along in the last 10 or 15 years. So what are some of the things that have happened recently that have put those concerns at the top of your list? You know, every day is a new day of authoritarianism. Russia, you know, on the international sphere, but before him, Donald Trump. And then you have, you know, various authoritarian people who are anti-democratic. Those happen all the day, all the time. And it's a fresh reminder of perhaps a sad commentary that the world seems to be going in the wrong direction, at least politically in a number of ways. I'll take that on a practical level in my response. When I think about the environmental impacts, quality of life and access to franchising, to access to right to vote. When I think about individuals in the state of Georgia, when I think about individuals in the state of Michigan, Flint in particular, when I think about those who live along the cancer canal in Louisiana and Mississippi, it's a matter of can you get to that voting location? Or is your quality of life impacted because of years of the dumping or the water quality? So that you have diseases or cancers that really prohibit you. And now you're being told you're going to stand in line for five or six hours and you physically cannot do that. Or your access to the information that you would need to cognitively engage in the voting process isn't available to you. Again, because of something that's been done environmentally. I'm looking at it from that perspective. I can't remember the name of the documentary that really outlined what was happening during the 2018 election with voters in Georgia who said, I'm supposed to stand in line for five hours? I can't do that. I'm physically not able to do that. I need a place to sit. I have and fill in the blank, whatever that malady was. And not all of it was because of some environmental impact, but just knowing that that is another factor that is going to make it difficult. It also means numbers in terms of who is voting. So when we talk about people from these communities, and you know that you've got short life expectancy, that you have a high turnover in miscarriages or babies that do not grow to full term because of something that's happened because of the water or the soil and the food that's growing from the soil. It's more systemic. It's the chest perspective versus the checkers. It's not just voting right now. It's the long term impact of who's going to be voting, who the constituents are going to be. So when you put that in the context of connecting those environmental factors, the impact on people's daily lives, on voting, on selection, on representation. And then you combine that with the impact on housing and education. How does that connect with things like the educational censorship, the housing discrimination that we've seen for decades, and still is prevalent in many areas? Is there any tie there or those different systems working separately? There's definitely intersection. And David, I'll pause. I'll let you look like you're paused to face some points to face something. So please go ahead, talk about it. There's definitely intersection. And I in another life, I serve as a planning commissioner. So I see this on a weekly basis where there's an intersection between quality of life, housing, and what you are or are not able to do. I'm using voting and access to voting, but that also impacts where you live, the school that you go to, what your choices are, or what you are told that your choices are. And if you don't know better, continuing along that path. So it's all interrelated. It's all systemic, but they run parallel paths. Yes, you can be in a community where your water may not be the best, but also if you don't have access to transportation to have the choice to go to another school or to go to be in another community for work, it all impacts the outcomes. And the outcomes are where you, what do you do? Career versus college or what your path is going to be. Are you able to take the time to go and stand in line to vote? Are you able to take the time to find a house that you can or a place to live that you can afford? And what does affordability mean for you? If you are making $8 an hour, your choices are going to be fairly limited versus someone who is making much more than that. So again, there's a great deal of intersection. Yes, it means unraveling, but it also, I think we have to start somewhere. And, you know, people talk about education reform. Yes, education reform is, I think is helpful. But if you're too sick to get the education, we still haven't really resolved the problem. You know, I totally agree with Tina on that. You know, all of these things are, are in fact interrelated and they all influence and affect one another. I don't, you know, and I don't know that there is one magic bullet or one magic lever that we could find that we change everything. It's, you know, more complicated than that. And I was reflecting on the idea that you posed, Chuck, which is, well, okay, if you could just change the top one, you know, what would that be? There's so many things that would have to change. But the problem, the problem to me is, well, okay, I mean, you need to start somewhere. But also, I think people have to be organized politically and by value systems and around issues and things like that. And they just have to come together to make demands and to sort of try and get a result. Either the laws that they want, a change in the laws that they want, or the leaders that they want who can help them do that. And, and it's, you know, it's not easy. It's, it's actually very, very difficult. And, and so, but it requires that level of organization in order to affect some kind of positive change. Thanks, David. And we know that in your short four year time as Hawaii's attorney general, hey, you had an especially productive period. And we're able to bring about, as a leader, instrumental in enactment of Hawaii's same sex marriage law, one of the first in the nation and have been one of the leaders. And in addition to that, a negotiation and settlement of the seated land claims of indigenous Hawaiians that had been out there for decades and decades and decades. Are there lessons to be learned from how you folks were able to manage and bring those coalitions together and achieve those things? Well, well, first off, thank you for saying that check, but I can't take credit for those things. I came along, Governor Abercrombie appointed me and I got to sit at the head of the parade on a number of these issues. But there had been a long parade working of people working on these issues for many years before I got involved. And they worked hard. And it was really due to their hard work that these things came about. I helped to cement the deal. I helped to get the final terms and conditions and I helped to sign off on a permanent solution. So we were able to make a deal. But the credit goes to the people who were toiling long and hard in the trenches on all of those issues. I mean, same sex marriage for gay, lesbian couples, it was a long hard fought battle over decades and decades. So I don't want to try and take credit. I got to participate and it was very satisfying and fulfilling. But it was a long time coming. Tina, have there been things like that that have happened in your experience, achievements of long contested conflicts being resolved? Actually, there is. I used to serve on my county's case review board and we had a fair housing act violation. And as a member of the case review board, we recommended that the complaint move forward to our hearing administration division and the hearing administration concurred with our findings and brought it back before us. And we actually were able to move forward with striking down the act and finding. I wish I could remember the details, but it literally was a matter of a person had been unfairly treated by, in this case, it was a multi-unit building that the person was a tenant. And it was a direct violation of the county code, but also in the fair housing act. And the defendant said, oh, you know, we're doing what we're supposed to do. And we found, so it's considered a landmark case. I'll have to find it for you, Chuck. But yes, that was a good feeling because we were sending testers out. And oftentimes the testers don't find anything. And when we do find something, oftentimes the complainant, especially if it's a tenant that's come in, literally feels intimidated because the defendant has said, oh, well, you know, you're complaining, we're going to jack up your rent or we're going to tell you, you now have to go month to month or we're going to do other things to basically intimidate you to force you to leave. And in this case, this woman was being intimidated. And she, in the end, she left of her own accord, but it was with the satisfaction of knowing that all the wrongs that had been inflicted upon her were righted with our decision. So, you know, it was a good, it's a good feeling. And I know that other counties and other jurisdictions have looked to our ruling. I'll find it for you after the show. But yeah, it was probably one of those, one of those few times where I really feel like, you know, the person, the underdog one. And to your point or to your question check, you know, what does it take? What are the lessons learned out of, you know, those achievements? I think a couple of things is one, people just have to keep plugging away. They have to be committed. It's hard, but, you know, nothing happens without hard work and a lot of struggle. And you just have to be committed to continuing the fight and continuing to work at it. And hopefully, at some point, the larger culture, the larger milieu, the larger society will say, you know what, you're right. That, you know, because it's not just legal. It's cultural. The acceptance of gay marriage and same-sex marriage was both a legal thing, but it was an acceptance culturally that, you know what, gay people are not evil. You know, lesbian couples, they don't have three heads, you know, which is how they had been portrayed. And so there was this whole cultural movement that supported that and allowed for the legal change to become, you know, something that people would accept. And not everybody has accepted it, obviously. You still have backwaters that fight against that. But it's doing that, so you have the commitment and the people plugging away. And then for the leaders who happen to be fortunate enough to be sitting in the positions, either political or lawyers or whatever, it's the ability to make the deal. You got to make the deal. One of the things I always remember reading the Robert Carroll books about Lyndon Johnson, and Lyndon Johnson is a tremendously interesting guy, but, you know, he always used to say he had a lot of disdain for Hubert Humphrey who could give one hell of a speech, but he couldn't pass diddly as far as legislation. Okay, and Lyndon Johnson, as people hated him for a very variety of reasons, things like that, he could get the job done. He could cut the deal. It wasn't always perfect, but he could cut the deal. And that's critical for leaders to be able to bring it to fruition. It's not going to be perfect, but it will be something that will be better. And that's one of the things that I hope the political leaders can do. So where, if anywhere, do you see hope for those kinds of coalitions, that kind of leadership that can bring about change in this very divided, very unequally unjustly distributed society? Okay, Tina, that's your question. Thank you. Thanks, David. I think there's opportunity for collaboration at the community level, at the grassroots level. We see so much division at the top level, and sometimes it's a matter of punctuation. I mean, I'm being facetious when I say that, but at the grassroots level, I think there's opportunity for collaboration with the groundswell hoping, with the groundswell that will make our leaders say, you know, we've got to step up because the groundswell is saying, if you don't step up, we will remove you. That's what I think. I just see right now we're in a space where our leaders are literally fighting over nuances instead of the actual issue. Going back to the Voting Rights Act, at the end of the day, it's the right to vote. And we have literally started to just take the hair and split it and split it and split it and split it. And it's going to really take, again, grassroots individuals saying, I know my rights and I want to vote. And if it means that we have to come together as a community, I give you a ride, you give me a ride, you watch my children while I go to vote, we do this. But this is not right. I want to exercise my right to vote. I absolutely agree with that. You know, you got to start somewhere, you know, you got to convince people of change is very difficult. And we're, you know, I mean, the country is going through a people right now because it's very polarized. I hope that the people who are conservative are not so far out on the right and so crazy as some of their leaders that they will not, you know, that they're really, I hope that they're not intent on totally trampling the rights of minorities and people who don't have power and the powerless people in our society. I hope that that's not the case. But I don't know. And I think there's going to be a grand experiment here where you're going to have some states nationally doing progressive things and enhancing progressive politics and progressive outcomes for people. And you're going to have some states that are going to go backwards, they're going to go try and go back to the 50s or maybe the 1800s in terms of social mores and social justice. And it's a sad thing, but that I think that's going to happen. And then we're going to have kind of, you know, people will vote with their feet as to whether they want to live in those situations or not. And that's a really valuable insight, David, because we've just been experiencing for a little over two years, probably the worst health epidemic of our times. And you always hope that hard times are going to bring people together, particularly at the community and family and grassroots level. And instead, we've seen that manipulated, abused politically and otherwise in ways that divided people against each other over those health issues. And the leadership was part of that. We've seen that in the courts, we've seen that in the legislative bodies, in the executive branches. Where do you think, and maybe it's the environment, climate change is real. Housing is real, education is real. Where do you think people might begin to come together, coalesce and form coalitions that might bring about the kind of change that you're talking about? I don't have any good answers for you, Chuck. You know, people, there are all these terrible issues. And I think communities will react to work together and to try and help each other and to try and be kind to one another. But certainly there will be, I think it starts at the local community level. And that's where things really will happen, if at all. There's certainly nothing going to happen at a federal level. The days of, unfortunately, with the voting structures that we have and the primaries and the encouragement of fringe candidates and the pandering to the base in order to get into the primary now. The whole idea of cooperation in the middle, that's gone at the national level. Not going to happen. Not going to happen for, I don't know, decades, maybe generations. It's a sad story to me. And it may be gone at state and even some local levels in many areas as well. So what might give people a sense of community where the collective good might coalesce people rather than dividing them with individual choice against the collective good, as we've seen with health and masks and other things? Initially, I was going to say education, but I'm not so certain about that. Not in Florida anyway. Every parent wants better for their child. But as I say this, I literally think about the division schisms that we're seeing in this area regarding what our children are taught, who's teaching our children and what we want them to know and what that information should be and how it's packaged. That was my initial thought. I think I'm going to have to mull that over a little bit more because some of the arguments that I'm hearing on the east coast let me know that parents are really feeling divided about this. And unfortunately, it's not the best example of a collaborative grassroots effort because you've got communities now saying they have no confidence in their school board or they have no confidence in their superintendent, which sometimes it's a matter of the superintendent is saying, we want the child to learn as liberally as possible. And the parents are saying, no, we only want you to teach these specific topics and everything else is not under your purview, which I'm not sure in a public school setting is that really the direction to go. I'll pause there. I thought education would be it, but it's not. I totally agree with that. I'm really disheartened by what is happening in various school boards nowadays and you have people coming out and attacking the school boards. We have we have lost the sense of civility of people are allowed to say their viewpoint without getting physically attacked. That's gone. And, you know, it started with Donald. It didn't start with Donald Trump, but he certainly brought it to a different level. Will Smith just brought it to another level. But it's been going on and and it's encouraged by social media, by television, by the news cycle, by oh, we want to see violence, you know, violence makes it real. That that kind of attitude and it's terrible because once you once you go down that path, it's very hard to claw back to a sense of civility and reason. And unfortunately, the school boards and are the victim of that. And, you know, I mean, it's like in the voting commissioners, the people who put the the the elections on now they're being attacked physically and threatened. And it's terrible. It's, you know, democracy is under attack and and it's a sad, sad story. I really I am somewhat optimistic, but I also have a kernel of pessimism of, wow, I really hope I didn't live through the golden age and that now we're seeing the fall of the empire and the barbarians at the gates. I really hope that's not the case. But I am concerned. Well, as the wise man said, a pessimist has never disappointed. And we're, we're, we're out of time for today. But maybe the inference is that the conversations that need to happen need to be focused on the collective good, the common good, to bring people together to work toward agreement on that collaboratively, rather than the competition over whose point of view is going to be given preference against another. So thanks, Tina, David, great insights, great perspectives. Another great candid session thanks all of you for joining us on Think Tech. Come back, see us again. We'll be back in a couple of weeks. Take care. Be well. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at ThinkTechHawaii.com. Mahalo.