 This event is part, this event is part of an ongoing series in which we're speaking with institutions who are already implementing energy saving strategies. And we have two future events that I hope you'll keep an eye out for. On April 26, we will be speaking with Karen Zuccher of Zuccher Art Conservation and this is a private practice conservation studio, specializing in paper in Oakland, California. And then icon will be hosting an event in June, in which Lorraine Finch, who I know is attending today hi Lorraine will be speaking with small museums in the UK. And if you missed our February event that was the inaugural event of this series we spoke with colonial Williamsburg and the Shelburne museums. And that event we did record and we will make sure that that's posted on a IC forums and we can also share the link to the recording on for icon to share. And Amy has just posted the registration link for the April event in the chat so please feel free to register for that now. So today, we are joined by Rob Pierce, who is the senior preventive conservator at the museums Wales museums Wales operates eight sites seven national museums and a collection center. The sites range from a large open air museum to a more traditional art and national history museum in Cardiff. The collections contain over 5.3 million objects and specimens from fields of archaeology, natural history, social history and art. Rob started work at museums Wales in September 2003 as the agricultural and crafts conservator and then became the senior preventive conservator in August 2010. The job description for that role included two lines specifically aimed at increasing the sustainability of collections care, which I am just really applaud and I'm credibly in awe of which more institutions had it. And those lines are to participate on behalf of the museum and sector wide initiatives to develop more sustainable approaches to environmental control. And to work with buildings and estates to develop more sustainable approaches to environmental control in line with sector wide initiatives. So when he joined as preventive senior preventive conservator he started working almost immediately towards introducing seasonal set points, and those were introduced at the National Museum Cardiff in September 2011. The first overnight shutdown took place in November 2013 also at the National Museums of Cardiff. So Rob, thank you so so much for joining us today. We're going to start off with a few questions and then as I said, we'll have about 15 minutes or so for audience questions. So I mentioned a few strategies that you're already using at museums Wales. Are there any other strategies that you are implementing or what specific strategies are you using and why did those particular strategies make sense for your institutions. Yeah, hi Kate hi everyone. Yeah, we got a few others that we've tried. We try we use conservation heating control. We turn stuff off I've turned a lot of stuff off actually over the years and we've done introduced new technology and new low energy technology in the form of LED lighting and ultrasonic humidification humidifiers. And three mix and match with all that nothing supplied across the board. How did we, what did they stretch make sense so as you just said, yeah, but it's always been a part of my brief here is to reduce the energy we spend on maintaining the collections and so we started off. I got straight on to that. I mean it was one of the things that drew me to the job anyway. So one of the first things I did was start working on seasonal variable season the variables have temperature set points and that was I read a paper. And all of these, all of these sort of techniques have been written up. Well, at least once probably multiple times in the conservation journals and the like and at the time. Maybe there still is I don't go to conferences quite so often now, but there was a lot, a lot of conferences on how you can reduce your energy in maintaining collections environments and I went to quite a few over a short period of time so all of these things ideas came from attending conferences reading journals and that sort of things and they were all 10, they all showed that you could do these things whilst maintaining a 40 to 60% humidity range and a temperature range 18 to 24 degrees something like that. Anyway, we've applied these things when the opportunity arises arises. So, let's say a little bit more about some of these strategies. The set points. That was that started with a paper on my desk on my first day at work with a highlight, a post it note highlighting that particular article for written by someone in the National Maritime Museum, I think. And that was showed. Oh yeah, good savings and it seemed a pretty low risk place to start. Changing the overall temperature range that that you're going to see in your gallery. Well, we weren't anyway, and it would. And it seemed like yeah good sayings could be made good energy savings could be made for very little very little input. I underestimated the input I must admit on that particular one. It was a naive approach towards it and computing and things like that and I just assumed that you would program in this information once and oh yeah there we go that's it that's set for years ahead. Never really worked like that we had to my initial strategy was to change them little by little month by month but we had to. No one told me that this had to be all put in manually every month until a good few months in so I know it's like, oh okay. Yeah, I can see this is a lot more than I thought sorry about that. So that strategy has changed on and off over the years. But I think we are now finally getting to the point where that can actually be automated. How many years later but quite a few years later we are automating that in the relatively near future. So that brings me a little bit to our next question which is, what did you do to test the strategies that you were implementing and what collections or spaces were they tested on first. Yes, well the idea was to test the seasonally variable set points but we never did in the end. It was seen as such a low risk and the testing period would have to cover at least six months to cover winter and summer and really the mood was to just get on and start saving energy and certainly no regrets there. The overnight shutdowns which can really save a lot of energy because you potentially everything's off potentially 12 hours a day. We just started those on just one air handling unit at a time and we just turned them off for a few hours over a night. And monitor the impact on the environment. Actually this brings us to the first slide actually because this overnight shutdowns are, well they sound very simple but there are a few pitfalls with them really. Amy can we see the first slide? There we go. So that's really what you want to see with an overnight shutdown. Really no evidence of it in your environmental data at all, or very little. You can see where it happens but it's compared to the variation within the data in general that you would never see that in a million years. But if you go to the next slide Amy then you'll see a slightly different story anyway. So this one is a different space and it's a very different reaction. Obviously the environment in this gallery is a lot more variable but you can clearly see the overnight shutdown where it happened and you can see where it started up again. And you can see an overshoot as well which is one of the things that you can discover that when you turn things on off is that when it turns on again it overshoots temperature and or humidity might overshoot. Not really looking for that and if we go to the next slide you can see. So this is the ceiling of the gallery and that for the graph that we've just seen. So it looks all complete intact and everything but if we go to the next slide it's not so easy to see but somewhere near the middle towards the bottom you can see a bright white area and that's the light from the gallery shining through the hole in the ceiling. So the gallery ceiling was not a seal against the space above and of course all the air from the gallery that you're hoping is going to stay in there and keep conditions stable throughout the night just wafted up into the plant room above. So you can learn a lot from overnight shutdowns about stuck sort of fresh air dampers and the construction of the building and things like that which you weren't necessarily going to find out otherwise. And once you've done one you don't have to do it again. That's the thing about overnight shutdowns you just write we're not going to turn that one off again until we resolve those problems so it's not just going to turn everything off at once and and there we go that's it. You have to approach these things cautiously and be prepared to take a step back every now and then quite often actually certainly with this sort of thing. I would imagine that, you know, as you are doing the shutdowns and discovering things about your collection spaces such as you've mentioned here. There are, you know, a lot of colleagues that you are working with. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, like which relationships are which colleagues, both within your own institution and then outside were most helpful for you in getting these changes started it. Yes, absolutely. The one thing that I couldn't do any of this without is a very good working relationship with our facilities manager, building services manager, they have lots of names but the person and the teams that are looking after these the equipment that controls these environments you absolutely have to have good working relationship with them. Communication needs to be clear but that can be tricky at some times because the way they are they sort of approach these things from a different angle. And they won't. And the idea of actually turning something off is almost an anathema to them know these things and be designed to go on and on and on. And you can and some some units are just designed to work 24 seven and just without alteration will not work will not turn off on and off according to the room conditions but you can get around those sort of things but absolutely you need to have that you need to have regular meetings with these these your colleagues in these departments and and yeah you do these things so you arrange for the overnight shutdown for instance I'm going to use this as an example and they and then you need to look at the results where with the your colleagues in the facilities management department and actually look at what's gone right what ones can we continue here which ones we're going to have to look again at why is it done this and and it's a two way thing because they find out quite a lot about what's not working and what is working well and what's not working as well. So that's absolutely essential but I mean there of course is quite a lot of other relationships are also very key to this whole thing. Visitor services managers people in charge of people working in spaces if you're especially if you're reducing temperatures in the winter and things like that. It's, they need to know because their staff working in these spaces at if the gallery temperatures gone down in winter and it's 1718 degrees in there we have galleries that are 16 degrees in winter. They're getting another another layer or two, compared to what they were used to where when it was maintained at 20 degrees C all year round fellow conservators because I'm a preventive conservator I don't know. And everything there is to know about the materials in the stores the collections and things like that I need to know from conservators and collections managers what's in stores what the vulnerabilities what those stores have been like in the past past environments and if they're no seeing damage and things like that that's all need to have all those sort of things. And, and senior management of course, it, if you are working to reduce energy. You need to be a good buy in from senior management. Well, it certainly helps a lot if senior management are on board with all this. Generally. Yeah, yeah, people are because you know it saves energy and saves save money and of course energy isn't getting cheaper. No, so yeah those are the those are the key relationships I think. No, that's that's really wonderful. You know and I feel like that's a really great answer to to our next question, but I'm curious what else you would say, you know many in the audience today are likely hoping to implement changes at their own institutions so you know aside from developing these really wonderful relationships with colleagues. What's something else that you would recommend to them to help get them started. Well, it's really simple. Really, turn one handling off for a couple of hours and overnight see what happens. You have to start simple but you have to do you have to do a fair amount of research for even getting to that point so you need to know. Basically with with overnight shutdowns the more isolated from the external environment your spaces is then the more chance that you're going to not notice it. There are fresh air dampers stuck open and fans still running so we thought we've shot down but actually fans have been running when when they shouldn't have been inside that fresh air dampers are stuck open and you can end up with no results that way so keep it simple be cautious. You don't need to be in being too cautious overnight shutdowns can be. You won't learn much because if the conditions outside are very similar to what they are inside. You're not going to learn if the fresh air dampers are open or not because it will be doing is exchanging air. Of the same conditions who nothing's going to change but you yeah you need to be cautious need to think about it do the research. And make sure get the permissions that you need to get everyone on board. But it's not it's not difficult at all the actual mechanics of doing it is actually quite simple most of these things. Yeah I mean what is difficult is when you come to replace all your LED lighting or all your humidifiers that that's a different ball game entirely. But yeah so. No that's that's really I think that I think once you start your. It'll become clear. Yeah, I think starting is sometimes the hardest part. Yeah, I think so yeah because it wasn't that hard for me because it was part of my job description but it was not part of your job description and you have to do this on something else then. Not quite so easy. Yes, I love that that was written in there yes absolutely. Can you tell us a little bit about the temperature and range ranges that you aim for at museums Wales in your controlled environments. And any tips or techniques that you use for for achieving these ranges. Yep, we generally as I sort of might have indicated for we generally aim for a 40 to 60% humidity range and 16 to 24 degrees C temperature range. But we don't. It's not a blanket thing where the conditions we set for each space and they are set according to what's in there so we have a gallery containing panel paintings. We keep the humidity in there a higher than we would do in general so that that's 45 to 65 humidity. And we might, it might be less in say archives or something like that where we might go 3555. And we don't always sometimes, you know if it's ceramics or something and I think it's just not responsive to humidity and temperature. We might turn it off or they'll be stored somewhere where there is no control. And so there's a very wide range. And we don't generally we achieve our aims but not always mean we have problems when I don't know whether you've been to Wales but we don't we don't get 30 degrees C in Wales that often. Increasingly we do. Last year it was hot, very hot for a week. It's not extended periods of time and if we have but if we do have 30 degrees C plus for a week we do struggle to maintain that 24 degrees C top mark. Especially where we have windows in a gas, solar gains and a thing and and yeah so we do but we go for like 90 if things are in spec 95% of the time I'm pretty happy with that. Yeah, it's not things break and things mistakes are made and get things go out of spec so best you just have to react quickly to those and get them back in and spec as soon as possible. Yeah, I don't know many institutions that, you know, don't have problems that arise with their each tax systems. No, you're generally going to expect that. I was just wondering, you know, since this is, you know, you described a range that, you know, I think is wider than often us in the US aim for, although I think achieving it is is one thing. But can you talk about if you've seen any change or damage to collections that are stored in these controlled environments that you would attribute to any environmental changes. Not not for things that are made to not when we do actually manage to achieve 40 to 60% that is we used to strive for the 55 plus or minus 5% and we used to keep temperatures at 20 plus or minus two throughout the year. I mean, maintaining that sort of temperature range in the world climate and and then still expecting to maintain 10% RH range. Well, was beyond what the equipment we had, we never achieved it. So, but I think there's a fair amount of evidence out there. Something that's a lot of papers to show that most objects will be fine between 40 and 60%. And that was and we're not. I mean, when we, but since we've been striving for 60%, and we do achieve that, whereas before we never achieved the 55 plus or minus 5, the 50 to 60%, it was just be out the spec 50% of the time, around 95 and 5% of the time or something like that. So it was, I mean, environmental control has got better for various reasons at the National Museum of Wales, but it was, yeah, we haven't seen any damage. We do. I mean, damage does occur because of that was your question wasn't it about damage and that when things throw out side of those parameters then. Yeah, damage can occur, especially at low, very low humidities you can find we have found wooden items to cracks open in the shrink and things like that. And it is usually the low humidities that are the problem so winter time to higher temperature to higher temperature and no humidification can lead to humidity around 20%. So that can cause problems for more delicate wooden items that are on open display, but that's way outside what we would be aiming for and way outside of what any sort of energy saving strategies are aiming for as well. Not part of the strategy to allow to humidity for that low. So, yeah, probably no more so than we ever used to basically before, even when we were striving for 55 plus or minus five. Probably damage was just as regular as since we've stopped driving for that and have adopted this more 46% range as a as a standard to not an increase and since going for more sustainable ways of controlling environments. And it's very rare. That's really wonderful to hear and I think I hope that will be the one thing that everyone attending this will take away. So I, I'm really happy that you mentioned it that way. I'm going to ask one more question and then we will go to audience q&a because I can see that we have a number of questions. So my last question for you is, you know, in our conversations you mentioned that you have new galleries and you have a very unique climate control set up there. Can you tell us a little bit about that and how you use display cases and vitrines to help help preserve the collections there. We were talking about our newest galleries, I think in St. Fagans, it's an open air museum, but they got recently there was big development on the galleries and they were the whole, that whole project was had sustainability in mind. We were aiming for a high-safety sustainability standard, which was achieved, I believe. So as part of that we, we went from no dehumidification, no humidification in the galleries and limited dehumidification with just temperature and cooling. The current temperature control strategy allows the temp, so there's no set point as such. When in my mind, there's no set point, the control engineer probably does have a set point in his mind, but in my mind. And the way the strategy works is that if the temperature falls below 16.5 degrees during opening hours, the heating valves will come on and it will work to bring the temperature up to 16.5 again and then they'll go off. And the converse happens in the summer when temperature goes over 23.5, cooling valves open and work to bring the temperature just back down to 23.5 at which point they turn off. So we don't aim to get towards the middle point or anything. When the temperature wants to outside is high, we aim to just cap that internal temperature and when it's low, we just aim to minimize, just keep it at a minimum level. We also use to avoid very low humidity, that isn't actually enough to avoid very low humidity. We also manage the fresh air intake using carbon dioxide sensors, so they only open during the hours of opening and they only open when necessary, so when the carbon dioxide concentration reaches a certain level. I think it was 900 ppm, but it was lowered significantly for COVID. I'm not sure where we are now, but it used to be 900. They would start to bring in fresh air and the 1000, so they would be fresh air down, but it would be fully open and the flounders would be working maximum. But as it turns out, the only real issue, the only time you really need this strategy is in the winter when you're trying to keep the humidity up. It's an open air museum, people tend not to visit open air museums in the winter and your gallery occupation is quite low in the winter. The carbon dioxide concentration in the area, when you looked at it for a few months and it never went over 600, so it's been, we've had a fair amount of success. As we can see that the next slide now, I think, Amy, because I think this is where that one shows the environment in that. No, that's actually it's not that one, but that is actually an uncontrolled store over two years and the line show 40 to 60%. So you can achieve this with no control whatsoever. If you look at the next slide, that's the gallery environment in one of the savangers galleries. A lot more spiky, but you can see the low humidities are avoided. For the most part it goes has gone down when we get in that the the work in November where it just goes down and down and down and eventually gets to about just under 35 was along a three week period of low five degrees or less outside. And yeah, it's you can't deal with that very easily, but that's pretty rare. We haven't seen that that's this year we haven't seen that in the last two years before that. So, and the high humidities. We're not so not too worried about because that sort of just boost the galleries rule fit sort of fitted out with hydroscopic materials so wooden floors, wooden beams in the ceilings. And if we look at the next slide, we will see what through this is from inside a case in the same gallery over the same period of time. Cases are absolutely amazing at buffering fairly less than favorable gallery environments, so we say. And we do use them quite a lot in spaces that way. No, we're not going to be able to maintain a good environment, but we want to display something more sensitive than we would normally be able to put it in a case. And that's we would the target environment there is 50 to 60% and we've pretty much achieved that. Over that year so and they are uniform that's actually a refurbished case so that was also another aspect of the sustainability of the project is that we refurbished reuse. We've done about 20 30 cases. And mix them in with some of the new cases as well. And so that's, I think that the new cases are even that's an exchange of point five but the new cases were exchanged point one. And you can see that sort of result with no, no, no silica gel at all in the in a case that sealed that well. That's really wonderful. Yeah, that was a that worked out very well. To get the conditions right there but it because people aren't used to setting that sort of thing up. You have that you have in your mind how it's going to work but the people getting that to the people that are setting up the controls can take a while. Yeah. Let's just being aware of time let's take some questions from the audience. And thank you so much. This is really just been incredible. I really love that you reused cases I feel like I don't hear enough institutions talking about that so I'm really happy that that's being done. There are a few questions. Just asking for more information about some of the references that you mentioned earlier on. Do you happen to know any of the titles or authors off the top of your head. Or can you point those in the audience in the direction of where they could find some of that information. Oh, this I'm very very poor remembering names and titles and things it's just not I would need a list in front of me. I do vaguely remember their reference because I've referred to it for a number of occasions for the season evil set points but it was a long time ago. I think it's Amy or Dwyer or it was National Maritime Museum. I think it was an icon. One of the icon magazines. I'm not sure. I think you I mean, I would have thought searching would you would find something on overnight shutdowns. I know I've read several things and heard people talk about them. But no, that's really not. Okay, I'm very very poor at that kind of thing. Sorry. No, that's okay. And I see I'm just going to shout out ours Otero, which my colleague Amy has been so wonderful about updating and there might be, you know, references that we have there. And that is readily available to everyone you don't have to be an AC member to access that. So hopefully we can put that in the chat. And we also did just get a mention in the chat of the IIC Turin conference. Yes, that's a lot of papers in that one. That's another great place to start. And then I am just scrolling through the chat. There's been several conferences that have been devoted to sort of sustainability energy conservation techniques and that there's a lot of really good papers in those. If you can pick out what they are and I can't remember. I believe I've seen at least paper. The stuff they publish after the events and they pre prints or whatever they are, yeah, really useful those sort of single focus conferences and things. Yeah, great to attend as well. But I don't know whether they happen quite so often these days, but yeah, they were really they are very good. There is a question about any specific communication techniques that you found most effective in reporting your progress. No, no specific. The meetings are generally finally what I use to report progress discuss what needs to be done next and that sort of thing face to face well yeah used to be face to face but not always these days but I think you have to find just the communication method that works for you anyways because you know everyone's different in their way approach to communication and their strengths and weaknesses in various types of communication so what I would find useful wouldn't necessarily be what anyone else would find useful. I like face to face meetings and and also I'm writing sort of up emails with the necessary information in them but not everyone does and a lot of people don't read emails so yeah you need to work out what going to work for you and who you're communicating with and things like that. I have to say we, as far as progress with regards to energy saving we don't really know how much energy we've saved in any one of these sort of things it was only when we introduced the ultrasonic humidifiers it was any real attempt to actually finding out how much energy we going to know we actually save there. But we don't have enough submetering to know where the energy is going. All we know is that energy consumption on a site went down or up. This is something else we're addressing starting to address recently but up until very recently. We just have a electricity bill. And you have to guess what's actually made it go down or up. Based on what you know is going on but there's always obviously in conservation we're not the anyone's trying to save energy so across everyone's trying to save energy across these sites because it's so expensive really yeah yeah it is so expensive and that's. Yeah there's a good driver it's a good driver for getting people to do these things so yeah we don't really know. But it was decided in 2010 that we weren't going to let that stop us. That's great implementing these things it's because you know, if we decided to wait till we knew what was doing what we would still be waiting and we've still not done nothing so. But what we can say is our energy usage has gone down significantly. I mean it's just the ultrasonic humidifiers they use something like 93% less energy than a steam humidifier, which is a huge huge saving. Wow. Yeah, I mean it's a really incredible really big saving. And LED lighting is a bit is a huge saving as well, but both of those are quite expensive to fit but they are they can be huge. Did you get any resistance to specifically to the overnight shutdowns or any of the techniques that you tried to implement. No, no, not really no mean that we. There's a strong sustainability agenda in Wales through the Welsh government it's a, it's one of their targets. And it's strongly supported by senior management and pretty much everyone here understands the need to do this and so it's generally 100% supported. There was some worries, I suppose from principally the conservators. But generally, when, when I after a talk and some some hard real facts I suppose about, well, this is actually what we do I know we're aiming I know in your mind we've been achieving 55 plus or minus five. For the last 50 years but actually, if you look at this data you can clearly see we haven't. So once they see that, you know, things weren't quite what they thought it is no, no resistance. That's wonderful. Very good. We have a few questions, just asking about the range that you allow for fluctuations within a 24 hour period of time. So can you elaborate a bit about if you try to limit, you know a fluctuation between 40 and 60 within 24 hours. Oh yeah we don't see, we don't, we wouldn't go from, generally we wouldn't go from 40 to 60% in 24 hours. We try to limit the change to 10% in 24 hours and about four degrees C. Things happen. And, and it does things do change quicker than you want them to. I mean, I read the St. Pagan's galleries I spent a lot of time just slowing the reaction times down of the plant. I mean that was key to actually achieving what we get what we got there. Because generally, things over the plant overreacts it sort of. It's designed that way, but it's not designed with objects and gallery conditions in mind. So if it's, if it's taking you from 40 to 60% in 24 hours, yeah it needs to be addressed and it can be addressed. There are things you can do with the settings on the handling units to address that. Nature tends not to send it that way, especially when it's sort of buffered by your internal by the walls and ceilings and things like that. But machinery does so or can do so it's it's quite often you can adjust those settings, which is, yeah, as I said, it's been a big focus. That's great. You mentioned ultrasonic humidification or dehumidification. Can you expand on that for the audience? Ultrasonic humidification. Yes, that is a relatively new technology. It's been around for a while, but I don't know what the uptake has been. But as I said, the headline figure is that it is a huge energy saving to be made. And the way they work is they use a high frequency electrical signal to cause a plate to vibrate within the water, which something happens anyway, it throws out tiny one micron droplets from the water surface, which then evaporate into the air stream really quickly to produce this water vapor. Because you're not heating anything, there's no heating elements. So you're not using that huge amount of energies to get the water to evaporate to boil off. It is so much more energy efficient. And they they got quite a lot less because they don't have elements that they don't burn out. They don't get lime scale or anything like that. They are it's a fraction of the maintenance costs as well. I believe I think the maintenance costs were estimated to go from 11,000 a year to 2000 a year. And we replaced 53 steaming humidifiers, I think with about 61 the the ultrasonic humidifiers. And yeah, and the energy saving was huge on top of that. I can't remember the exact figures now I've got them here, but I'm completely lost in my notes. But yeah, it's worth investigating. It's not the kind of thing you're going to do just for the sake of it. But the steam humidifiers we were replacing were 40 years old, so they were a little bit past their best, shall we say. And something had to be done and replacing light from light would have been crazy when you got that option. No, that's a really excellent point. It is 1145 right now. Do you have time for one more question. I do yes. Okay, okay. So this will be our last question. And I think it's a good one because many of us do work in institutions at our historic buildings. So, if any of your institutions are in historic buildings did you study how the building would be impacted by any of the energy saving strategies so by overnight shutdown seasonal set points. And have you had to prioritize the wellness of the collection over the historic building. Well, most. A lot of our buildings are historic buildings and the. There are the open air museum this or there's a castle there and which is in how wasn't removed but there were there are many historic buildings that were moved from around Wales to their the maintaining. We tend not to use we use HVAC in the museum the art gallery and museum. But they've been installed many years ago and widening didn't really widen the parameters I mean we never achieved 55 plus or minus five so nothing changed that much other than we became more successful with our aims because our aim was just made more realistic. It is certainly something I know so we do have stores in attics in the castle, and that is, there is a need to stop condensation occurring and in the building and things like that, but they can still be done without full HVAC without me if you use conservation heat I believe if you use conservation heating as a method of humidity control in an historic building which is what National Trust do and what we do in a lot of the re erected historic buildings and in the castle is to use conservation heating which is sort of. It's less energy than you would do if you so the alternative there and what we used to is just heat or winter. But you end up heating when you don't need to. Whereas conservation heating it's basically it's a humidity start attached to a heater and the heating only comes on when the humidity demands it reaches a certain point. And then that drives the humidity down again so. It can be done is the short answer yet you can you can be done without but you do have to be mindful in a historic building of the building fabric itself as well but if you're working with. Facilities managers and others that where that sort of thing is their expertise then. Hopefully they would flag things up if you are trying to do something that was. Going to damage the fabric of the building. Certainly I have those that sort of expertise to flag things up to me as well so yeah it can be done. You have to be you have to play these principles where you can it's not something you can apply across the board any of it it's not nothing that you can apply completely across the board you have to play it where you can. And in some instances it's just not going to work but in many instances you can like for instance you can turn everything off in some places and you still maintain your environment. But until you try it you don't really know. So, yeah, I would say just try it. I love that I love that as a place to end. So Rob thank you so so very much for joining us today and you know sharing all of your experience about the strategies that you have been using at museums Wales. And I really want to thank you all for coming. I apologize that we didn't get to all of the questions in the chat. And there are some really good ones I do want to quickly highlight. Step and Simons that the last part of his question, which is just in the energy and climate crisis aren't we facing a clear call to respond with a more responsible and sustainable and a more honest approach to environmental control in memory institutions and I'm so happy that we're having this conversation and I think that, you know, I do really hope that everyone is asking themselves that. So I just want to thank you all so much for coming and Rob again thank you very much. You know this is just one of a series that I hope that I see an icon can continue because I think these are really important conversations to be having and I think it's really important for us to share all of the knowledge that we have. So that everyone can be making, you know, making these changes at their own institutions so thank you all so much. And everyone have a good day. Bye. Bye bye.