 It's unlikely that there is one among us who has not heard about the murder of George Floyd in Minnesota by the police and the ensuing protests and demonstrations that have engulfed our country. From New York City to Archedelphia and places in between, Americans of all races are crying out that black lives matter. George Floyd's death and worldwide reactions have had me on an emotional rollercoaster, from anger and frustration, to fear for my two children, to deep sadness, and yet also to cautious optimism. I must admit that I have tried to write this message for more than a week, but I've had difficulty figuring out what to say to my teammates at Southern. I'm not sure why the killing of this particular unarmed black man has caught the attention of America. This is neither the first time a black person has been killed by the police, nor the first time it has been captured on video. Whatever the reason, I am truly hopeful that this time is different because change is necessary. And not just in law enforcement. Why do I say that Southern Bank Corp has a duty to act? I say that because our founders established Southern Bank Corp Development Corporation in part to help combat the systemic racist practices that have prevented many black Americans from fully accessing the American dream. It is the same founding purpose that we must continue to embrace today to help our communities and this nation recognize the fact that it will take more than words. For our country to live out its constitutional promise that we are all created equal. It will take intentional action to destroy and dismantle systemic racism. So where do we start? And what is your role as a Southern Bank Corp team member? First, we must have open and honest conversations about race. We are going to have a series of discussions throughout the company about race, unconscious bias and racism. I encourage you to have similar discussions among yourselves. I know these discussions may be tough and sometimes uncomfortable, but if we are ever going to make progress, we have to be willing to talk in a constructive manner, respecting the opinions of every team member. I've just read excerpts of a letter that Darren Williams, CEO of Southern Bank Corp Inc. wrote to his colleagues in June of 2020. And I share those words as a welcome to our session today entitled How to Have Real Conversations About Race Within Purpose Driven Organizations. Today's conversation isn't only about what Southern does in its markets, it's really about the conversations that Southern is having inside its organization. My name is Laurie Spengler. I'm the president of courageous capital advisors, and I've had the privilege to work with Southern and the Southern team over many years, and I'm really delighted to be part of the conversation today. Joining me are several of our Southern family members, Glenn Jones, the chair of the board of Southern Bank Corp Inc. and senior advisor to the president of the University of Georgetown University. Darren Williams, the CEO of Southern Bank Corp Inc. John O'Lamie, the CEO of Southern Bank Corp Bank, Andrea Parnell, chief people officer of Southern Bank Corp, and Donna Gambrale should be joining us momentarily, who's also a member of the board of Southern Bank Corp Inc, and chair of the board of Southern Bank Corp Community Partners. Donna is also CEO of Appalachian Community Capital. For those of you who don't know Southern, Southern is one of the leading community development financial institutions in America. It operates in the markets of Arkansas and Mississippi, markets where its slavery was real, and many families from the slavery and Jim Crow era still reside. Southern is extraordinary in the products and services it delivers in these markets. But as the title of the session suggests, the conversation today is about what Southern is doing inside the organization in talking about race and racism. And so I'd like to begin our conversation today really, Darren, with you. I read part of your letter from June of 2020, and I want to ask you as an opening if you can share more about why you wrote the letter to staff and what you were hoping the reaction would be and what reaction you actually did receive from your colleagues. So welcome, Darren. Please get us started. Thank you, Lori. And thanks for reading excerpts from that letter. You know, that was probably draft 13 of the letter. It was difficult to write. And I wrote it because Southern couldn't be silent after what the world witnessed. And again, I'm not sure why the death of this particularly unarmed black man caused a worldwide reaction that it did, but it did. And it was not enough for us to be silent. In fact, according to Angela Davis, it's not enough for us to be non-racist. We had to be anti-racist. So we had to take action. Being silent was not an option. And so when I pinned that letter, that note to the team, I was not sure what the reaction would be. But I knew that we had to react. But it was consistent with our founding purpose. We were founded to serve the Arkansas, Mississippi Delta, really the Arkansas Delta, grown to the Mississippi Delta, a part of the country that's still marked by the disease of slavery. And much of our founding purpose was really about creating economic opportunities for everyone, particularly those who have been disenfranchised and marginalized, particularly people of color in that community. And so we had to speak. And I'm proud to say that the reaction was very, very positive across the organization, from the larger, from the African-Americans in the network for us. It was a comfort that we could speak so openly about these issues that they face every day. And even more so from people in our white community and our team members who start sharing their own experiences and actually set things to me. They've been reading. They've been looking at and they've been learning about, in fact, one of our team members said a video really kind of chronicling the history of credit discrimination in this country and what it's meant to, you know, for us to have this racial wealth gap and how we got here. And so it sparked a real, I would say, productive conversation. And the reaction overwhelmingly was very positive. Fantastic, Darren. And the words you've used really interesting about providing comfort. I mean, you were quite personal in the letter. It's a letter to all staff and you really shared from a personal point of view and the learning, the word that you're using about learning. So I really appreciate we're going to come back to that in the course of our conversation. Glenn, I want to turn to you and you shared with me that the conversation within Southern about race didn't start with the murder of George Floyd. It started before that, although this was a particular moment in the way that Darren has mentioned and his own direct communication to staff certainly continued to encourage the conversation. As the chair of the board, can you talk about the internal conversation and how it did commence and how you framed the conversation at the beginning. And of course, interestingly, how it's taken shape over the course of the conversation. Sure, the conversation started formally about 18 months or so ago. But the informal conversation started around 2015. Each year, Darren and I sit down once a year for his annual evaluation. We talk about the year that was we talked about what keeps him awake at night. We also talk about plans for the future. And I think it was about a second year at the organization. He said, you know, I really would like for us to start thinking about diversity at the board with thinking about it for some time now. We wanted to make certain that the time was right. Typically, diversity is often cast as a social initiative, as a strategic initiative, as a business initiative. And it is, but to really succeed at the work, you have to understand that diversity work at its core. It's really a cultural issue. And your culture has to be ready to have the conversation. Darren was a new CEO. He came to Southern from a non banking background. And in case it doesn't translate well on your screens, he's also black. And so for us to have this conversation at a time when he was brand new, we thought it would be unfair to him. And so we actually asked him to spend some time understanding the current culture of Southern, but then spend an equal amount of time changing and molding the culture into what he and the board wanted it to be. And he devoted a significant amount of time, energy and effort he and his team to create this remarkable culture. And it's one where people understand not that Darren is a CEO, but they understand the heart of their CEO. They understand he cares about all of the employees. He's very passionate about this work and people we serve. And so because we took the time to do all of that and build the trust and the Layla Foundation, when he wrote the letter that he wrote, it was well received because it didn't come from the CEO of Southern Bank Corp came from Darren Williams, the CEO of Southern Bank Corp. And that was a turning point in terms of us understanding that we were really ready to have the conversation. But prior to the writing of the letter, we'd already started as a board to have the conversation. He and I about how we want to frame this conversation. And so we spent some time among the board talking about our diversity, why it was important, and really focusing on our why. Why is this important to us? Yes, there's a social reason. Yes, there's an economic reason or financial reason. And yes, there's a strategic issue here as well. But ultimately, this was the culture we've created. And it was really the spirit out of which Southern was born that we wanted to make a difference in the lives of people, especially working at the intersex and where you see these vestiges of race still present in the lives of people. And how can we utilize our influence, all of our collective influence to think about building the future that we all envision and the future we think people deserve. And so that started the conversation. We began to frame out how we were going to broach the topic throughout the organization. He and I sat down. We kind of did a little skeletal outline of it. We created this wonderful committee just full of people from the organization, from the chair of the board to people who would be considered among our rank and file employees. I mean that term respectfully. And so we had a lot of people coming to the conversation from their perspectives, bringing their experience, bringing their thoughts or opinions. And we realized early on that we really needed to have some common language. When we hear say the word diversity, equity, and inclusion, what does that mean for us? So we took the time to do that. We brought in a great expert to work with our group on implicit bias to make certain that we understand that in this conversation, we can all be free to express ourselves without rendering judgment, but really operating from the viewpoint that we really wanted to understand where everyone stood on this very important topic and how do we coalesce around this topic in a manner that allows us to advance our mission of building communities and changing lives. It's fantastic and what I really love is that you've used the culture frame right out of the gate, and you're right that so often people can think about quote unquote, initiatives. And DEI is often being framed as an initiative, and you've put it squarely in the cultural fabric of the organization. And the other part that I really take away from your story is the notion of building the trust and the corridors of interaction as human beings that really then enabled you to get to a place where you could put some of the more formal elements of having the conversation around different tables from the board all the way through the organization. So I think that's just it's very powerful. And Darren, I wanted to ask you because Glenn talked about your trajectory from the time that you arrived. You were certainly thinking about things in conversation with your board chair, but you were building relationships with your colleagues and thinking about the culture of the organization. So as you reflect on that period 2015 to 2020, what are some of the elements of what you were thinking about and how to establish the fabric foundation of Southern culture to really ground itself in trust between colleagues. Yeah, so so Lori, I appreciate Glenn and our board giving me time as a new CEO really to understand the culture of the organization and to try to reshape it and so we spent a fair amount of time doing that and at the heart of what the folks who work here care about they care about the people in the communities they serve and they live in because you know we grew up in we go to church with we are we're deeply embedded as a community development finance institution so they want to see what's best for everyone to see what's best for their own community. And so, as we really embark on the conversation of understanding, helping to shape and mold the culture that we wanted is really about listening to our team. And our team want what's best for for their for their for their for their communities that they serve. And in fact, our, our mission in many ways is our, you know, really a competitive advantage. And so for us to be able to enter into these really difficult conversations. You know, it's really one of the things that makes us unique it's one of the things that really, you know, encourages folks and helps us to attain retain and attract talent, because people really want to see what's best for their communities and, you know, so as we were going culture something you never you never finished working on right so this is not it's not this is not the end all be all, you know, I always say, you know, the same culture Trump strategy, if you got the right culture team with developer winning strategy. And so in fact I call myself the chief cultural officer not the CEO, because I feel like it's really my duty to kind of help shape the culture that we want. And if we're going to serve underserved communities, we cannot run away from race, particularly in the markets we serve government action and inaction has helped create these wealth disparities that we see in America today, you know, so it said that the average, the median wealth of a black family is 24,000 median wealth of white families 188,000 dollars. So for every $1 wealth of white family has a black family has less than 15 cents. That's exacerbated when you work in the Delta, where everything's economically depressing. So our whole purpose for existing is to create these economic opportunities to build wealth for everyone. And we focus and online that he termed everyone. And so in order to do that you've got to help shape and mobile the culture where we have these open and honest conversations only with ourselves, but with our customers and recognizing to jump to Glenn's point about having this implicit bias train we'll have to continue to do that. We see the world from our own lens. And unless we have these open and honest conversations will never be able to remove the scales from our eyes and kind of walk in another man's boots for a while. So those conversations continue. It wasn't just in 2015 that continues to today. That's fantastic there. And I really love your notion about the listening, the reciprocity of listening in the community and with each other. And I mean, as you say, your mission is kind of, you know, the kind of powerful motivation for everyone who works at Southern but making sure that you're also having those conversations inside the organization. I think it's really extraordinary. There was a question in the chat that popped up during what by sharing excerpts of your letter, how often they hear from you as CEO how often does the staff internal conversations here from you on this topic. So have they have you had similar either written communications being Glenn talked about you now have different tables of conversation but just give the give the listeners a little bit of a sense of how frequently they hear from you the CEO and other members of the senior team about race. Sure. Well, just in general, they hear from me, you know, I do, I do, I do a monthly blog and so they hear from me on an unarranged topics. And on this topic we really as Glenn said we created this kind of diversity equity inclusion committee. And this committee really has been doing the real difficult work. And we have actually right now been really working to find a consulting support to help us think through how we continue to, you know, work on ourselves. And so this is a topic that's front and center. In fact, we are hiring our first chief diversity chief diversity equity inclusion officer. We're preparing preparing that now someone who really takes the mantle this has really been one of those topics that I have really led. But it's so important to us that we need to have someone dedicated who reports directly to me, not a part of HR but reports directly to me, who's going to help lead this conversation with the support and help with that. I think it's about a 30 person committee that work helps work on these issues and again it's an issue that we're not going to ever quit working on. It's something that we're going to continue to work on. And so folks will continue to hear from me, continue to hear from other members of the team. And I think what's really powerful for us in our, you'll probably get to this, but in our last company-wide meeting we're bringing everyone together. This year was virtually since we can't do it in person. I think it was important, not just here for me, but from other leaders of the organization including John O'Lamie. So there was a, on our website now, there's a conversation between John O'Lamie and Glenn Jones, our board chair, talking about the issues of race, why it's important to Southern. So this is an issue that we don't want to worry about in Southern. Fantastic. Thank you, Darren. Nathan Hitman from Southern is going to make that video available at the end of the session to all of our participants. So it's a very powerful video. We're getting a number of really good questions from the audience, kind of focus on different areas. So one, I'm just going to go back maybe and invite Donna if you can. I know Donna, you've joined us now, if you can hear it. One question is about the board. So a question from one of our participants is, the staff is starting to have conversations about race and honest conversations with management. But the board and the chair of the board in this institution is a little bit hesitant. So Donna, if you can hear me, I think you can. I think you're welcome. I can. Hi, Lori. Hi there. Can you share a little bit from the, how do you, would you have any advice for this organization, but how do you think about it, the role of a board in participating in framing the conversation? Thanks for the question, Lori. It's a pleasure to be here with everyone. And especially with the Southern team, I'm such a proud and happy member of the board and happen to be the board chair of Southern Bank or community partners as well. You know, I really think it's important for the board and the CEO and the rest of the staff to be joined at the hip as it relates to diversity, equity and inclusion. For us on the Southern Bank or community partners board, the I is not only part of the committee that Darren had just talked about, but it's also in our strategic plan. And what we did every quarter is to walk through that strategic plan as it related to diversity, equity and inclusion to talk about the progress. I think that made the board more comfortable in talking about it as well and asking questions. But this doesn't happen overnight and it doesn't happen easily. So I think that, you know, just the process itself of putting the subject on the table, the subject matter on the table and letting the board ask questions and get comfortable with, well, what does that mean? Does that mean that we're looking at changing our changes in the policy itself, the practices, the programs? I think at Southern, we've looked at all of that and are looking and continue to look at all of that as well. We just made some changes at the loan fund with our underwriting policies, some of our loan policies where we thought there needed to be more flexibility to the board, approve that, totally understood why those changes were needed. So, Lori, I would say that it really is an educational process and the board has to be linked with the CEO and with the rest of the organization. If those conversations get lost and I saw one of the questions and said the board is really hesitant, there has to be, you have to jump in the water. I guess that's what I have, my main advice is that you've got to jump in the water, not to be afraid to jump in the water and understand that, you know, nobody's going to have the right answer. The board's not going to have the right answer always, the CEO isn't always, but the conversations have to get started, even if it's in incremental stages, even if it's in baby steps, but the important part is to start the conversation. That's great advice, Donna, and very practical. And I love your point, just put it on the agenda. It's not the answer, it's not the fix, it's not the formula. Put the item on the agenda and really ensure that you're at least starting the conversation and then continuing the conversation. I think Glenn, you also spoke to that. This is not a kind of a one-off. You have a meeting and all hands, a staff meeting and okay, done. No, this is a continual engagement process. You spoke to process as well, Donna. That's a really helpful, really powerful. Donna, I want to turn to you. You've spoken to me and to others, and I think you say this on the video. You've used the word race when you've talked about holding conversations about race with integrity, with respect and with empathy. But you also share quite openly that each of us has a responsibility to know the facts, to learn about race and racism and systemic racism, and particularly of course in your business and banking and the financial services industry. So how do you encourage people to get to the same place or at least a recognized place about the facts, while also extending grace to people as they kind of navigate their way in the conversation? And John, interestingly, a comment as you expressed your thoughts both internally and then there was a question in the chat about with customers, how you work with customers in the same way. So if you could maybe address it. Sure, no, thank you, Laurie, for the opportunity to be here. These are hard conversations. And if you don't have trust among really among the management team and among the boards of which we report to who support us, these conversations will fail. And you have to have the opportunity to really be able to speak to your perspective. And what I applaud the board, specifically Glenn, when we were first talking about this was, hey, John's perspective matters here as well. And we need to understand where he's coming from as well. And specifically when you get into systemic racism. So you look at this and you're like, well, what have I done? You got to get educated on how we got here. And I would encourage everyone to do that. And you have to have you have to have grace in how you have these conversations. I've been in meetings with Darren before where someone has asked Darren specifically, you know, hey, what do black people think about this, Darren? And he handles it was such grace was like, well, I don't know. I didn't go to my black people meeting this morning to find out what all black people think about this issue. And and and I'm sitting here thinking, wow, I was thinking the same question. So it is perspective and how we go about it and and learn from it. And I consider myself somewhat educated. But, you know, you're not learning about these issues unless you really dig and get into it to see how the systems really were created and perpetuate what what's going on. As for customers, we talk about it with our customers. And I'd like to tell you all the conversations are good. We have lost some business as a result of some of the things we're doing. And that's OK. In fact, I probably get more furious about it than others do. And they're like, you know, this has been going on for years. So, you know, we're very open about it. I think that's the first piece about it. We're very sincere about it. I think that's very important as well. But I think it's being true to who we are. And, you know, we don't try to be what we are and we do try to be what we are. And and most of our customers, as Darren mentioned, I mean, they embrace this, right? If you don't, if you don't come at it from the standpoint where you're really just trying to preach to people, but you're trying to educate and say, hey, how do we all move forward together? You know, most people jump at that opportunity. No, no, that's I mean, I really appreciate your how you've expressed that, John. And let me just ask you on the internal side, whether it's happening at Southern, but other other organizations where you have a colleague who might just be either reluctant or or just struggling to get into the conversation and maybe even not taking it seriously. Yeah. No one comes right out and says, hey, yes, I'm, you know, I'm against, you know, race. No one's going to come out and say that, you know, when you start talking about systemic racism, people start saying, well, I'm not sure I really believe in that. Yes. And you point them back to the facts. And you take a look at, you know, how we really got here with redlining is the easiest example of all as in our industry. And you talk about some of the manuals that, you know, the FDIC had at the time, and I'm not thinking on them because it was everyone that, you know, these are undesirable loans, loans to black people in these areas. And, you know, when you start talking about it with facts and take some of the emotion out of it, it's a much easier discussion to have. And especially when you're not pointing them and saying, hey, you did this, this is a system issue that's been built over time. Whether people see it or not, and you're just bringing people along and some people move at some, you know, faster paces than others do. Yeah. No, thank you for that. That's really helpful framing. I think one thing that we're really trying to do what's really important about our DEI journey is really a focus on the eye, the inclusivity, right? And so the white male perspective is so very important to this conversation. And so we are very intentional about having that conversation in a way that it doesn't exclude anyone. We're not trying to point fingers at anyone. We're trying to really better understand each other. And that's why it's so important that John, for example, led this conversation, this virtual conversation for the whole team, I think, more so than me. It would have a different impact. I think if two black males, the board chair and myself have this conversation, then John had the conversation with Glenn. And so our inclusivity really means respecting everyone's opinion. We're really honest and true about that. Wow. Laurie, also to that point, Laurie, if I can just interject. Please. It's also important that we understand that we're not trying to fix anyone. Right. And many times when you have the conversation, it's as if one group is trying to fix the other group. If we can just fix you guys, we can make it better, but that never goes anywhere. So when we talk about trust, that trust is a bilateral arrangement agreement with all sides. You can have difficult conversations with people you don't trust, but you can have difficult conversations that are effective and productive and are educational if you don't trust each other. So understanding that we have each other's best interests at heart. We want whomever to share their perspective because we need to hear, we need to know, we need to understand it. And we don't necessarily need to judge them for it, but we need to understand it. And in the end, we'll pick up all the pieces and ask, okay, which ones will stay with us? Which ones will become a part of our mission vision and values moving forward? What are the things that we need to let go of if we're going to be a part of the Southern family? And so we were very careful on the front end to make certain that people understood this wasn't about a let's fix this group or that group. But this really makes certain that we all understand that this work is important. And to answer one of the questions in the chat room with your board, I think it's important to articulate why it's important. If you skip the why, the hesitancy will always be there. And if there's hesitancy after you articulate the why, then you've articulated the wrong why, in my opinion. But when it's all said and done, you should be able to say, this is why we're doing it. And I should be able to look at it from a business standpoint, a social standpoint and understand without doing this or without taking these steps, we're hurting the organization. And as a board member, my first responsibility is to be a great steward of the organization. And so I would encourage our fellow attendees to really think about it in those terms. And so many times we want to talk about what, how and when and where we forget about why. That's such a powerful reminder. You're absolutely right, Glenn. I really appreciate the way you've specified that. And so the clarity around the why, and if you haven't gotten clarity, you better go back and get that clarity and keep at it until you have the clarity is what I'm hearing you really underscore. On the how though, you really touched on a number of points, all John, Darren and Glenn in your last round of remarks building on what Donna had shared also. I want to ask, apart from the intentional John interviewing Glenn on video and sharing that, that was an intentional decision for the reasons you've shared. Did you also use language like you shared with us in this conversation, meaning this is not about fixing people. Did you actually make it because you're all talking about the need to have trust, safe interactions with colleagues to have the difficult discussion. So did you also say some of it, did you express, do frame the conversation explicitly in some ways that enable people to really feel that the senior leadership was inviting that kind of engagement with folks. It's been framed exactly as you've heard it today. We have not created a different set of language for this presentation. This is what we've said our team members to our board members individually and collectively. As we've had conversations and to John's point, we've lost customers and others have said, I think you guys should not get part of this. I had people write me about Darren's letter. And wanted to know what I thought about Darren's letter and I said, well, being that I helped edit his letter, I thought it was fun. And you move on. But that's where we are. And this is the work that's important to us. And you just can't, to Donna's point, you can't be afraid. You can't be afraid of pushback. But also you can't wait for the perfect moment to start because it will never come. Right. Right. That's such a good reminder. So we're all imperfect and you need to keep exploring, learning and growing such a good invitation. Andrea, I want to turn to you if I may. May I? I was going to add one other thing to just that question because, you know, our committee, the 30 plus members who make the committee. We worked on this document calling more perfect Southern. Really, our strategic vision is not a plan. It's a vision. And one of the first things we did in this plan is we defined what diversity, equity, inclusion means for Southern. So that means a lot of things are different people. So we defined it and what it meant for Southern. And that also helped in the language and the framing. So having, you know, that goes to knowing your why. And so we've defined those terms for ourselves. Everyone's kind of had a kind of common language and a common playing field and kind of a common starting point of what we're trying to get to. That is great. That is fantastic. And that's a good segue actually to Andrea. So Andrea, you are Chief People Officer at Southern. And I think Glenn, you alluded to this or Darren, one of you said oftentimes when we start talking about diversity and inclusion, people think it's an HR matter. That's where it sits. It's HR. So Chief People Officer, can you share your perspective on the conversation, the cultural elements that have already been introduced in the conversation? What's your view, Andrea? Right. Well, it's really kind of twofold. I feel as HR and the sphere of things that we influence, we are absolutely a stakeholder and an owner in promoting the principles of DEI. But I 100% agree with what Darren stated. To have a position that has the weight of reporting directly to Darren. To have a DEI initiative is not the right word, but strategy as part of your organization. To have that, well, let me say it this way, because I've worked in both scenarios. When it is an HR matter, it tends to be viewed by the organization from a more legalistic or compliance perspective. And when that's your perspective, you get more of what I call the check the box mentality. When it's coming from not just your CEO, but the full power of your board, it tends to be viewed as this is an important strategy for the success of our business. If it wasn't, the board wouldn't pay attention to it. And so to the point earlier of the hesitancy by the one individual's board, I think what we have learned through this very thoughtful process that we've gone through is that we have an opportunity to unite our employees. And a lot of the hesitancy that you see comes from a fear of dividing the organization. We're going to alienate a certain segment of the population. One thing that everybody at Southern can get behind is we want this organization to be as impactful, as successful as we can be. And so back to the point of framing to show how DEI plays a role in that. Really helps this be a cause for uniting the organization rather than dividing. That is so beautiful, Andrea. That's really powerful. And you've got a nice reaction in the chat window as well that it's not an initiative, it's strategy. Love your point about a way to unite our colleagues around the full Southern table and also in community. That was really wonderful and beautifully conveyed. And then as you say, the board, this was Donna and Glen's points as well. The board is putting this on the agenda and talking about it consistently. That also sends a signal to the organization as well and reinforces the point that this is a unifying endeavor. That was really lovely. John, there's a question to you about bank practices. So I think Glen talked about this in Darren that this was an invitation for Southern to look across the board inside the house. What are we doing? Not just how we treat each other as colleagues, but looking at our policies and our practices and lending practices. As we know, because you pointed at this out in your own factual inquiries, lending practices have some embedded bias there that the numbers show it over many, many years. So what have you learned, done, what's your view on that both for Southern but also for other institutions, John? It's a great question. I'd like to tell you that it's all been rooted out. We are certainly evolving as an organization. The first thing that we've done is we went back and looked at our loan policies. Some of these were drafted 50 years ago. I think they probably had the best intentions on how to operate a safe and sound organization without really thinking through what the unintended consequences of a policy may or may not do. We are looking at all of those provisions to see if there are other ways or alternative ways to go about lending money so that we can achieve the goals that we want to. We do a couple of different things. One, I give us pretty good marks when it comes to our HUMDA lending. We see the comparisons that we have to some of the other organizations that are in the states that we operate, and we actually are doing our best to perform better than some of those. That doesn't mean that the bar still isn't low and we have work to do. But we're constantly working at this. I'll tell you another thing that we do in our board. I give them a lot of credit for this. Part of our incentive compensation. If you set incentive, you'll drive things to where you want them to go ultimately. We have margin and mission goals. Some of those were laid around how we're lending to African Americans. We look at those things. I'd like to tell you we figured it all out. We haven't. We constantly are trying to get better at it. We hope that we are going to be able to create some digital tools in the future. We've invested quite a bit in them. They're not out and operating yet. And we're hopeful that those biases are not in those tools. We are talking specifically to people as we develop them to make sure that we're trying to be as inclusive as we can. At the end of the day, we're still a regulated organization by the State Bank Department, the Federal Reserve. We have our fair lending guidelines. But what's unique about Southern is that we have this nonprofit loan fund that sits right with us, Southern Bank Corp. Capital Partners that has much more flexibility. So a lot of times when our customers come in, the answer not necessarily is no, it's not yet. But if you'll do the following things, we can get you in a house. We can get you that small business loans. But you've got to do some things to get yourself there. So I guess the short story I'll summarize real quick is we're looking at our practices. It's constantly trying to figure out how we do it. What people don't realize is we want to make loans. We don't apologize for the margin and mission strategy. We make money when we make loans. So, you know, we want those loans to be made. But we also want them to be done in a responsible way. Fantastic. Yeah. And I love you're also aggregate to the point of incentives. There's a little bit like honest point about board agenda. You put it on the table. It's an agenda item. The board takes it seriously. If there's an incentive structure, folks take it seriously. And then this iterative notion and your compliment of tools to also see where you do have an issue. If there's another tool that we can be using in our toolkit to kind of get at that gap. Really, really helpful. John, thank you. And there were several people who echoed that that question. So I hope folks appreciated the clarity of your responses. I want to circle back to Glenn and Donna. You've done a really great job laying out how you frame the conversation, how you've embedded the conversation, how you progress the conversation. How do you know that you're making progress? No. I'm going to ask the same question to Darren and the CEO, but as board members, how do you know that you're making progress? Well, that's a great question, Laurie. You know, for me, and I probably rely on the feedback that I'm hearing from those board members. You know, sometimes when someone doesn't say anything, that's usually a clue that they haven't totally bought in. And so you've got to probe people. You've got to ask questions. You've got to kind of get them out into the forefront as well to say, well, you know, do you have some concerns about that? Or can you give me your thoughts about, you know, this particular action or this particular strategy? And so it's been interesting. Some people are much more talkative than others or much more willing to share their feelings. Others are not. As John had mentioned, this is a work in progress still and we're still kind of honing. I found too that it often helps as the board chair to have some private conversations. If I'm really thinking that there's some resistance or people are really not aligned, they're not on board. Sometimes those off the radar conversations are helpful to really get at what people are thinking about. I remember not this particular board, but on another board where one of the board members was really reacting very strongly to a DEI training session where they talked about the history of racism and systemic racism, what the impact was. And he literally just had a meltdown. He just said, this is not useful. Well, we could have all jumped in and said, all right, well, you're wrong. You know, get on board, change your mindset. And I said, no, let me just talk to him. And I think that conversation helped a lot. He actually ended up seeing that there was, he had more in common with some of those populations and communities that had been marginalized than he really realized. And so I do think it's critical. You know, we talk about trust, but it's also about the communication. And communication happens in a lot of different ways, especially on a board. Sometimes it's very formally at that board meeting. And other times it's more of kind of what a back room conversation with people. And I think you have to be open to all types of ways in which to make sure your board members are aligned with you as well. I mean, thank you for sharing the example in the story. It goes a little bit to that question we received earlier in the chat about a board that's resisting. And what I love about your framing of this, Donna, is we're also meeting people where they are and finding ways to connect with folks. It's about the connection and being responsive and figuring out ways to do that. That's not perhaps putting them under the spot. They're pushing them beyond where they're actually willing or prepared to go, but also making the conversation accessible. So I think that's a really good reminder. It's not all of a sudden around single group tables. Glen, from your point of view, what are you looking at? How do you give some indications to yourself around the board table that that's been making progress? First and foremost, everything Donna said was excellent. I agree with it completely. But from an operational standpoint, any strategy in the organization should have goals and objectives like anything else. We have a lending strategy with goals and objectives and expectations. And so as you build out metrics around DEI, hopefully, where do you want to go? And you need to measure where you want to go. As Darren likes to say, I can't remember who he borrows the quote from, but it's true that which gets measured is that which gets done. And so just as we're tracking every other big hairy audacious goal, this will be another series of goals that we're going to track. Just as we build other metrics into performance evaluations, we'll build this into performance evaluations. Just as we're looking at this as a metric for bringing people into the organization, whether it's a board level or senior management and beyond, then each and every step along along the way there should be a metric or a series of metrics that we're evaluating. And either we are making progress or we're not. And if we're not making progress, here's what we tried. Here's what didn't work. Here's what we're trying again. And so that sense of accountability is what I'm looking for in terms of outcomes, but also in terms of relationships and conversations. That's not a sad. It's not so much where you are, but do I see you making progress? I see people making effort, but I think it's important for the board members to understand, to engage, to learn. And I've been really pleased with what I've seen. And many of our board members would not have many shrink away from the conversation. But like Donna, on occasion I call and say, hey, my nose, you're quiet today. Or you seem to struggle with this topic today. What's going on? And creating an environment where they're comfortable sharing. Well, I felt like I wasn't being attacked or I felt maybe I didn't quite understand. I didn't want to say anything for fear of looking like a fool or whatever it may be. But it's constantly affirming people that run this journey together. We're not saying anyone is bad or good. We're simply saying, let's grow together as an organization. So that's what I'm looking for. It's just those tangible measures in terms of metrics, but then to Donna's point those intangibles in terms of people engaging in the conversation itself. No, it's so powerful. I think you're so right. And it's really come through in a lot of your remarks. It's engagement without judgment. And that's just incredibly important, but how you're all able to do that so effectively in your interactions and really shines through in the conversation. Darren, how about you? A similar view on progress. What are you looking for? Yes, so Lori, I agree both with both of my chairs. It's always a good thing, Darren, to agree with that. It is, it is. In a public forum especially. I'm no dummy. But I think what way I can use some examples of how we know, because they've laid out kind of how we do it. So from an objective standpoint, the measurements, as John said, we measure our Humber loans. How many loans have we made to black people? How many loans have we made in underserved markets to underserved people? That's one thing that we objectively measure. But I'll tell you what really makes you feel good are the subjective and adults are the stories that you hear. So when we get referred customers from other banks, and it's often an African-American customer or other bank who just couldn't make the loan. You know, recently we referred an African-American small business owner who runs a little business, kind of mission-focused business that had had his transactional account with this bank for decades. And they couldn't figure out how to make the man a loan to buy a van so he could pick up the kids in his program. I mean, it was not a lot of money. I mean, his bank is seven times our size. And they couldn't figure out how to make him a loan. It's like, well, just make the loan. He said, so he said to us, we made the loans. Like, where's the deal here? You know, that's an example. We've got an example of a small business owner whose season experience turned down by seven banks. African-American female turned down by seven banks. It came to us. We made the loan. Made an SBA loan. Made it safer than she would have made it before. She got to not have to pledge her husband's retirement. These are just examples that we know that it's worked. I know internally it's working is when folks in the organization, they're like white people in the organization send me stories of things they've learned about racism, about what's happening, about how we got in this situation, about systemic racism. So those are the ways we know it's working. The final thing I want to say is that we've attracted $50 million in capital over the last several years from investors who say they want to join us. So that's a good sign that it's working. And that's obviously helpful for us to, you know, for us to continue to grow and scale our impact. Those are great. Those are great saying that you just got to clap. You just got to applause. And the chat went fantastic there. And that was, I couldn't agree more. That was amazing. We are going to 10 more minutes. We're going to finish at 15 up. But I want to ask you a personal question if I may and feel free to share. John, I might start with you if you're comfortable with this. I'm just interested personally. What has surprised you in these conversations, if anything, positive or negative over the past year and a half in particular just generally since you've been at Southern confronting and the topic of race specifically. John, I think my perspective has changed. The more that I have learned, the more I realized that, you know, the work starts yesterday. And, you know, we didn't get here in a day and we're not going to get out of here in a day. And it's everything that the lens that I look through now, I'm questioning things. I'm questioning the way we do things and the way that we practice. And I mean, for example, we had a loan committee meeting the other day. And I said, Darren, do you realize there's not a single black person in this room that we have that perspective that's making a decision on whether this is a good loan or a bad loan? And it's things that, you know, you just, you think about. And, you know, we have progress to make. But I will tell you that I'm probably the optimist in the group. I think that we're going to make some real change. I recognize that it's going to be difficult. I recognize that it's going to be hard. But we are committed. And that passion, that drives what I'm doing. Fantastic. Well, the passion and commitment certainly come through, I have to say always with all of you. Andrea, how about to you? What has surprised me? Yeah, positive, negative, just going as a present individual, going through the experience working with Southern and confronting the topic of race in your work at Southern. Right. So when we formed the DEI committee early on, Lynn was very intentional about having that be a very collaborative effort. And in doing so, he asked people, Hey, would you share, would you share a story? And there were some stories that were shared that quite frankly were shopping to me that, that this happens today. This happens in this world that we live in. And I know, you know, I realized in that moment, I've not walked in these shoes and I've lived a fairly sheltered life. So for me, it was just interesting to be able to hear that perspective and made me frankly think about things differently. Thank you for sharing that really. Yeah. And there's, there's something unbelievable to connect with a colleague in an intimate, honest, open way. And as you say, you and John Boll, it makes you think it changes your perspective. Thank you for sharing that. I want to do a round robin of everyone and ask you the purpose of the session was to share your experiences, which you've done it, you know, just beautifully with Grace, I would say, John, if I may, we also were hoping if we, if we could, by sharing Southern's experience to encourage other purpose driven organizations to frame and hold honest and challenging conversations about, about race. And so I just want to invite you all based on your experience to say what, what is the kind of an actionable insight you might share a takeaway you might offer to the people listening today and to our SOCAP community. And, and Don, I might start with you if I may. You know, you've heard such great comments and perspectives from everybody on this panel, I think, Laurie. And, and again, I think for me, it really is about, you know, we talk about being authentic and inauthentic. And I think when you talk about race, you really have to be authentic. You have to say, you have to acknowledge when you don't know. And it's okay to say, you know, I don't know your perspective. I don't know your life story. I don't know what that means. Or I have total empathy because I walk that same road. But it's, it's okay to start out that way and really be come, I think, to these conversations, not feeling like you've got to know the answer. There is no right answer. We just know that there's a long history, right? And that's the history that we have to unpack. And it's a history that's an integral part, frankly, of the work that we do, whether we're in community economic development or some other line of business, everybody needs to be thinking about this. So as part of that, I think it is a 24-7 job, whether you like it or not. If you're in this business, you've got to be true to it and you've got to be totally committed to saying, if we're going to change the organization, this has to be a core component of the changes that we see. I think that is so powerfully expressed because we've got to be absolutely, you're all in. There's commitment. You have to be vigilant. You have to be rigorous. You have to be intentional. But also your notion about authentic inquiry. We don't have the answer, but it's an authentic inquiry and continue to probe and inquire. It's just really, really powerful. Thank you, Donna. That was fantastic. John, how about you? Yeah, that's a great question. I'd say get started and, you know, don't lose heart. I went to a conference not too long ago and they say, John, being nice is not going to solve problems. That doesn't mean be ugly about it. It just means you think you're nice and, therefore, you think you're solving the issues. I think it's get educated and get help if you need help. But start the real conversations and move past these, you know, surface type conversations and get down to the heart of what it is we're trying to solve. I love that. I love that. And don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. Be courageous. Be courageous. Get uncomfortable, we like to say over here. Get uncomfortable. That's a KPI for progress. How uncomfortable are you? And we know it's in progress. That's fantastic. Andrea, how about to you? I would say the one word I don't think I've heard us say today is the invitation. So I'll share just a quick story. And this happened within my first week of working at Southern Bank Corp, which is about nine years ago. I had a visit from one of our leaders who may or may not know who he is. He's a professional today. He is. And his conversation with me was, hey, let's talk about banking. Banking tends to have this phenomenon where it's predominantly female. You know, sometimes 80% female. And something happens at the top of the organization where you don't have that same representation. And so the conversation with me was as a person who has access to where those kinds of decisions are made, they are expected to provide that perspective because that perspective helps us make better business decisions. So for me, just having that invitation to do that and to be told that was an expectation really for me, gave me a sense of duty to speak up and provide that perspective. That's fantastic, Andrea. Thank you. Thank you for sharing the story. Just amazing. I love your use of the invitation. Love that. And you're right. Then you have a duty to respond to that invitation. Yeah. Fantastic. Darren and then Glenn, please. What's your actionable insight that you'd like to? I know lots have been shared in the conversation, but for you, what would you like to leave the audience with? Yeah, I think all that's been said today has been really good. My colleagues before me did a great job. I'm not sure how much more I can add other than I was thinking, you know, just do it. You know, they will enter the conflict was what I was thinking, and that's kind of been said. I guess the one thing for me that's been important for me to do is to listen. You know, God gave us twice in the years he did now. So I'm really trying to encourage myself to listen more. And when I do that, then I really find that I actually have common ground with a lot more people. And I think that's true. All of us, if we take the time to listen, so many times we are listening, preparing to say what we're going to say next. We're listening just so we can say something next as opposed to listen and really try to understand. And so it's been, it's been a really eye-opening to me in these, in our, when we had our DEI meeting to really listen to what people had to say. And, you know, that's really helping to direct the work. And so I guess I would say is, you know, yes, yes, do it, just do it. End of the conflict, but really be willing to listen and understand what people are saying, not just be prepared to say what you want to say. That is such a good companion to the authentic inquiry. Because if you're really inquiring, then you need to be listening. And I think you're right. All of us are so solutions driven and we all feel, especially in a purpose driven organization, that's what we're doing. We're solving. And so there's this kind of default tendency to think that, oh my gosh, I need to do something, but having that space to really listen and learn, that'd be fantastic. That's really great. And Glenn, how about you? First and foremost, listen to your wife when she tells you don't buy the cheap blinds for your home office. But, but seriously, I think know your why and make certain it's tied to your mission and your vision and your values. And just in terms of having an honest conversation within your organization, understand why are you really doing DEI work? If you're just doing it because everybody else is doing it, there'll be no different than January 1st at the fitness center, where everybody buys a membership because everybody else has it. And by the time April rolls around, nobody goes to the gym. And that's exactly what happens to DEI initiatives and ever becomes strategies because they know what to do. And in that spirit, there's an ancient Chinese proverb that I love that says the best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago, but the second best time is now. And I think as it relates to DEI work, we could argue, could I shoot a wood up until we're blue in the face? But we're in this moment now in our society, within our organizations, within our communities. That would encourage us all to just really step into the moment. Because in the organization that you're a part of, whether you're a bank holding company or a bank or a nonprofit or whatever it may be, you have influence. And the question becomes, are you going to use that influence for the greater good? And that is what I would leave you with, Lori, from my perspective. What a beautiful way to conclude the conversation today. I just want to thank you all. This was just, you're such extraordinary individuals. You're an extraordinary team. You're an extraordinary organization. And sharing so openly with the SoCAP community is just a great value to all of us. And just on a personal note, it is one of my privileges in life to have a chance to work with you. And I've learned so much. And I just feel so grateful to be part of this other family. So thank you all very, very much. I know SoCAP has recorded this and will make it available and Nathan has posted the recording of John and Glenn's conversation in the chat window. And thank you all for being with us today. Thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye.