 Hi, this is Debbie Daschinger. Welcome to Dare to Dream award-winning podcast. I'll put that right up front because this weekend I am flying to Denver, Colorado to attend the Coalition of Visionary Resources as this show is a finalist for Best Podcast. I'm so excited to go and attend. Wish me luck. And it's already been nominated for two People's Choice Podcast Awards for a Webby Award and Listen Welp Magazine is one of the top 20 best podcasts to listen to this year. So thank you to the listeners for being a big part of where we are right now. And I also want to say thank you for being on this journey. As I was sharing with my amazing guest, I'll introduce in a minute, I would do this no matter what because this is a masterclass for me every week. And the fact that you guys show up to listen to it as well makes it even more meaningful. It makes it a really cool party. So a little bit later, I will be introducing you to my guest today. It's Dr. Joanna Kuyava here to talk about her new book and we'll be diving into if spirituality and sexuality can be experienced as one. I am hoping that the answers are resounding yes and we can learn way more. This show, thank you very much is sponsored by Dr. Dane here in Access Consciousness. They do beautiful energy work out into the world. You could take their class anywhere globally as well as become a facilitator. Go to Dr. Dane here, H-E-R dot com or AccessConsciousness dot com. I'm Debbie Daschinger and I help healers, entrepreneurs, coaches to write a highly engaging book. I am a book coach and just got done teaching a beautiful book incubator for a few days. So if you'd like to write a book, you can join our ongoing book writing group at Debbie Daschinger dot com slash visible visionaries. Or if you'd like to learn how to be interviewed on radio and podcasts and get massive results or all the tenants that it takes to be highly visible these days. And that is so important. And please I urge you to go get your free gift templates, videos, all the how to's. It's at Debbie Daschinger dot com slash gift and it's spelled D-E-B-B-I-D-A-C-H-I-N-G-E-R dot com slash gift. The question is how is the lineage of the goddess now resurfacing in our collective experience of spirituality? My guest again is Dr. Joanna Kuyava, the author of The Other Goddess, Mary Magdalene, and the goddesses of Eros and secret knowledge. She is a scholar and spiritual detective who received her BA and MA from the Pontifical Institute for Medieval Studies in Canada. And Joanna got her PhD from Monash University in Australia as an active academic for over 20 years. Joanna uses her scholarly training to investigate spirituality and sexuality topics. Writing for academic publications on spiritual travel plus has had her short stories and essays published in various media and prestigious anthologies, including Best Australian Stories, The Australian Broadcasting Corporation, She Rises. Dr. Kuyava is on the editorial board of the International Journal of Goddess Studies. And you can find out more about her go to her name. And it's Joanna with two ends, J-O-A-N-N-A-K-U-J-A-W-A dot com. And with that, I welcome Joanna to the Dare to Dream show. It's so great to have you. It's wonderful to be here with you, Debbie. And congratulations on being a finalist for, you know, such a prestigious award. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And I loved your book. And I was telling you so timely, I'm hungry for the subject. I feel like I got woke to all of this. And ever since the floodgates is just like I need more material and information. And so let's just start with you mentioned in your book, the other goddess, Mary Magdalene, that often depicted artistically, Magdalene is seen carrying a skull. Can you explain why that is? Well, it is actually Mary Magdalene is portrayed carrying a skull or sometimes an egg, you know, and both of them have a very mystical explanations or interpretations. So if you don't mind, I would digress a little bit and I will tell you how I was on a really adventurous trip in Jerusalem many years ago with two archaeologists, and they took me to the church of Mary Magdalene on the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem. It was a Eastern Orthodox church and very beautiful church. And I went there and for the very first time I saw Mary Magdalene portrayed differently, because originally I came from a Catholic background. And then Mary Magdalene is portrayed as a, you know, kind of a sinner, right? This woman do not touch me woman kind of, right? So she's in a kind of penitential mode. And then in that church I saw Mary Magdalene standing with her hand extended and, you know, with an egg in her hand. And I explored this and I have learned that there's an old medieval interpretation which didn't really, you know, make sense to me. I think it was just an interpretation for, you know, the medieval mind, which basically says that Mary Magdalene after the crucifixion went to Rome to speak with the emperor to prove to him that resurrection is possible. And he said, I don't believe you. And she said, you know, if resurrection is possible, this egg will turn red and the egg turn red. So this is the medieval story. But I, when I saw this image, I thought this image reminds me of so many other images of other goddesses who stand there with their hand extended and they have an egg or a fruit in their hand. And what does it mean? It usually means that I believe that they have some form of secret knowledge, different form of consciousness to us, which is more holistic, which is not so polarized. And we live in very much polarized times and our consciousness is polarized, right? It's good or bad, black and white, you know, this or that, masculine, feminine. So I look back into this lineage of the goddesses and I saw that, for example, in ancient Sumer, 4500 years before us, there's this goddess Nimina, who is portrayed in the same way with her hand extended and she extends the gift of life and knowledge to humanity. You know, so that's very beautiful. And the same goddess Inanna, which is an Assyrian goddess, Isis, you know, different portrayal Isis and then Mari Magdalene. And all of them carry secret knowledge in the stories, but also are portals between dimensions or between death and life. So it's interesting. And all of them have to do something with resurrections. So for example, both Inanna and Isis resurrected. Inanna actually resurrected herself. Isis resurrected her husband, Osiris, very, you know, for a short time at least to conceive a child horse with him. And, you know, Mari Magdalene was there present at, you know, the moment of resurrection of Jesus. And if I just can say something more about it, because I'm really excited about it, because, you know, usually in the regular gospels, they say that when Jesus saw Mari Magdalene, he said, do not touch me, which in Latin means Nolima Tengere. And it sounds like, you know, rude, right? And when you look into the original Greek, when, you know, the Bible is originally written, it's memu aptu, which means you is not going to believe, do not hold on to me because I have not ascended yet. So he was in the process of ascension, so to speak, right? So it's different. And she talks to him Raboni, which is my beloved teacher. So it turns out to be a very tender moment, right? Like, and he says, do not hold on to me because basically it would interrupt the process of ascension. And she actually helped him ascend. Isn't that right? Like she came from the temple of Isis and was a priestess in the sex magic. And when they met, it was like, you know, that's right. And that's why I chose, you know, move away from kind of academic traditions and move to alternative traditions while using academic skills, you know, so some critical skills for this. And if you want me to continue in the same stream of thought, she was connected to goddess Isis. And I will tell you how I found the possibility, how it worked. So it's not just a theory, right? So for example, I have learned, because I wondered what happened to Mary Magdalene after the event of resurrection, right? So I discovered that there was a group of philosophers in ancient Alexandria, and it was the center, intellectual center like New York and London and Paris now, right? Then, and they accepted women philosophers and spiritually, you know, astute women. And then they had a collection, a connection with the Gnostic group called the Essenes in the Holy Land, with whom Jesus had connection and Mary Magdalene as well. So I thought, wouldn't it be interesting if she went there? So I started to look, you know, were there any women in ancient Alexandria that fit this description of Mary Magdalene? And I discovered that in the first century Alexandria, there was a woman who came under three names, that is the same woman, either Mary the Jewish or Mary the Alchemist, which specialized in spiritual alchemy, you know, specializing in ascension, or Mary the prophetess. And that she lived, you know, in the first century Alexandria, and we know it from another alchemist from the third century called Zosimos from Akmin in Egypt. And the reason why it is important that he was from Akmin, because the Gospel of Mary Magdalene was also found in Akmin. I think there was already a tradition there, you know, and this group, you know, to which she belonged, were also called healers, and they got initiation from the Temple of Isis in Alexandria. So just, you know, making it sounds like such a long story, but I just wanted to prove, you know, find the connection that it was actually very possible. So it's not just a story, there is a historical and philosophical connection there between Isis, Mary Magdalene, and sexual alchemy. Right. So if people haven't heard before on the show, either to reiterate or certainly in your point of view and being a spiritual detective, so the real Mary Magdalene, like, I mean, because I pray to her now, to be honest, I talk to her all the time because I just felt like, I don't know, something woke up in me when I first read the truth about her. Yeah, I feel like I was there. So I would be curious, can you describe who was the real Mary Magdalene? So there are a few sources and one of them are the Gospels, so I don't know if I should explain more about it, but they were discovered in 1945 in Egypt, but they were written about the same time as the canonical Gospels, which means the Gospels which are actually included in the Bible, but they were not included in the Bible in the fourth century because they were considered too radical. And also in the 19th century there was a Gospel of Mary Magdalene that was found, you know, but they were not translated for a long time and people didn't understand them. And in these Gospels, Mary Magdalene is portrayed as a partner and we don't know, you know, but close partner and sensual partner because it's a Greek word Koinoinos, which means a partner, you know, including sensual partner, and the main and most advanced disciple of Jesus. So for example, in the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, it is the disciples who come to her after Jesus's crucifixion and say, Sister, tell us what the teacher told you that he didn't tell us, you know, give us the teachings. And it is the Peter usually, you know, who is upset and he says, why do you ask her? She's a woman, you know, how, right? Why do you even bother asking her? The same happens in another Gnostic source, Pistis Sophia, when out of 42 questions in the source, 39 were asked by Mary Magdalene to Jesus. And again, Peter says, you know, why do you bother even talking to this woman? And Jesus says, Peter leave her alone because she's infused with spirit, you know, so she's portrayed as, you know, the most advanced disciples. And just to summarize, it is believed that she got the esoteric, most advanced teachings of Jesus, right? And in the Gospel of Philip, just to say, disciples ask, teacher, why do you love her more than us? Right? And also I said, Jesus often kissed her, right? So if there is any kind of doubt about the fact whether they had a close relationship apart from her being really advanced disciple, then it is there, right? There in the Gospels. Yeah, beautiful. The etymology for folks listening of Gnosticism is connected with the word to know. So Gnostics were people who claimed to know something special, for example, knowledge about a person or like a mystic with divine knowledge of certain key truths. So Joanna, can you tell us what do you know about the Gnostics and why do you consider them rebel truth seekers? Yeah, I love Gnostics because I imagine them, you know, in kind of modern way, like they're in the Asian city of Alexandria and they have secret meetings and they discuss the matters of the soul and body because right from the first of all, Gnostics have a long tradition that go before Christianity. It is now kind of discovered, you know, so they have roots in ancient Egypt. And also they right from the beginning, they thought that the way that the teachings of Jesus and I would say Mary Magdalene were interpreted was incorrect, that it was dogmatized right from the beginning so it fits in into societal expectations basically. So just for your, you know, viewers and listeners, there was a large number of Gospels written by different disciples and actually disciples of the disciples of Jesus and Mary Magdalene and only four were chosen in the fourth century. So it took four centuries, you know, to collect them and say, now this is too radical, so this is too radical, so okay. So they believe in Gnosis, which means basically the divine spark in us. So basically divine consciousness is within you. You have to live by your own spiritual experience, you know, but you shouldn't take it from authorities and certainly, no, not from any institutions, you know, what is your spiritual experience? You know, it is about your spiritual experience. It is the inner knowledge and it is really interesting because later when I got interested in classical tantra in esoteric Hinduism, which is obviously uses sexuality for the purpose of enlightenment or expansion of consciousness, you know, they teach exactly the same, you know, it's, they call it buddhi, which is the higher mind, you know, which is the divine spark within you, which you can access only individually through your own spiritual experience. I cannot hear you now. I cannot hear you now. Forgive me. We had a plane going overhead and I had muted this and I didn't even know. So that was such a good thing I said. So I'll repeat it. I said earlier on, you mentioned that in the West, the first goddess you came across is called Ninma and Ninma was the Sumerian mother goddess and the Sumerians worship the Anunnaki. The Sumerians lived in Mesopotamia, present day Iran and Iraq and they were there from about 4500 to 1750 BC. And so even though the Sumerians were an ancient civilization, their reign was marked by really impressive technological advancements like they invented the plow, like the first form of writing. And so what is your understanding of Ninma, the goddess and her connection with the Anunnaki? How does that bridge? That's a very interesting question that I would like to actually explore more in my further work. But at the moment, I come up with kind of free ideas, but okay, the one idea about her, it is that perhaps she was one of the Anunnaki. Perhaps she was one of the Anunnaki because she is the good Anunnaki because sometimes people have a perception that they were bad, but from what we know so far, they're good and bad. So she was the good one and she definitely wanted to give to us some secret knowledge, not only the knowledge of life, which perhaps she helped us to evolve. And some people say that she even perhaps played with DNA and I will tell you why, and also wanted us to evolve spiritually. The reason why, because I didn't explain it before, anticipating perhaps your question, it is that she's also portrayed with a kind of serpent behind her, which usually in Gnosticism and in Tantra represents the Kundalini energy, the spiritual energy within our body. And some people feel it can also represent the DNA helix. So when this serpent is moving upwards, it means that the spiritual energy is activated. So she's fully enlightened and all she gathers this enlightenment gives this enlightenment to humanity. So she's definitely a benevolent goddess with a gift of, I believe, our spiritual evolution and perhaps even participated somehow in upgrading us and DNA also physiologically, biologically. I know you talk about bringing things a little more modern. You talk about in your book that most women don't have a full sense of their sensuality. So most of us, if we are to come to this, we tend to come to this later on in life. And that's a sad thing because I think especially in America, I don't know if it's so much true in other countries. You can verify this, but it's often at an age where we're all waking up and men stop noticing us and paying attention. Can you speak to that idea of having a full sense of our real sensuality, the gift that's really there inside of us? I think the gift is absolutely there. And we just are told not to explore it. And I think it's not, it is some kind of systemic attempt for women to repress the sensuality, which is very beautiful. It's not only why a life giving, but as I learned also in esoteric tantra is actually can lead to enlightenment. So I have this kind of conspiratorial, a little bit theory that someone, whether we call it patriarchy, although I don't like this term because it separates women from men. I mean like system, systematically, somebody didn't want women to explore our sexuality. That's why such beautiful figures, like for example, Mary Magdalene was called a prostitute, you know, when she was not a prostitute, you know, we know this nowadays in the Catholic Church admitted it or just quietly, right? She actually knew how to use this beautiful sexual energy in a spiritual way. And the whole division between spirit and sexuality is completely unhealthy. And I think personally, we cannot evolve as human beings unless we are started to perceive as sexuality in a different way, you know, that we start to enjoy consciously, enjoy as sexuality. So it was such a relief to me when I, and you know, we can go into it if you want, right? From ancient Greece, you know, for example, goddess Aphrodite started as beautiful and sexy and everybody loves her and she's very powerful. And halfway through, you know, the works about her, she loses her power. Once she's in a relationship, she basically completely forgets who she is, right? And this is myth, right? This is just a myth perpetuated against women and therefore this goddess Aphrodite. That's right. That's right. And she's the goddess, you know, who is the only one in the Western culture before Marie Magdalene really who is truly empowered sexually, you know, even Zeus, you know, the main Greek god is afraid because, you know, she's so powerful, so sexy, so beautiful and so in her body, you know, in a beautiful way. And I discovered that in Hinduism, there's this very powerful, sexy goddess called Sundari. And she, she can move between dimensions and she is always portrayed in a very sexy way, you know, like Hindus often do, you know, beautiful breasts, you know, and beautiful legs. And, you know, she's so openly sexual. And when they say that her laughter was so sensual that mango tree started to blossom and produce fruits spontaneously, right? And she was a powerful goddess. And sometime around the same time when goddess Aphrodite started to mysteriously fall, you know, she started to be associated with, you know, like, the loss of sexual power, you know, she now, for example, this kind of dubious massage parlors in India, India are called Sundaris, you understand? So she started to be degraded as well. So there is a historical movement that degrades this kind of powerful life embracing sexuality of women. And when, you know, just I will mention that because I was, I'm not anymore, but I was brought up as a Catholic as a little girl. I noticed this dichotomy right away, because was this Virgin Mary, very beautiful figure, but you know, a virgin, you know, mother, so obviously has to be completely asexual, right? Which is like, where did they come up with this right idea? And then there's Marie Magdalene and you know, she's sexy, she's beautiful, she's smart, but she's bad boy, she's bad. So you're told right from the beginning that there's something sinister about your sexuality. And what it created in human relationships between men and men is also very, it's horrible, you know, because I noticed when I observed men and relationships of my friends, you know, that men also think this is a wife material, but you know, after children, I lose interest in her. It's very common because she becomes the mother, right? And then there's this other woman that is always enticing and interesting, but you really, you know, is just something on the side, right? Which is completely debilitating for our relationships. So we as women, and I think it's going to be good for men eventually, we absolutely have to reclaim this sexual, life-giving, joyful power of sexuality, which is not only about motherhood. Motherhood is a beautiful thing, but it's a stage, right? It's a stage in women's development. And the sexuality is very empowering. And in Tantra, it is the sexuality that actually female sexuality, not male sexuality, can I stress it? And I'm talking about Asian Tantric texts translated from Sanskrit that can, when properly used, lead to expansion of consciousness, of joining with the divine mind. And men are in awe of women in this Tantric rituals, because they cannot get it without her. So the woman is the conductor, so to speak, of a spiritual energy that is sexual, and this energy during the sexual act spills on the man. And then he also can experience this, you know, union with the divine mind or cosmic consciousness, but not without a woman. Right. So I hear you saying basically that spirituality and sexuality, yes, they can, hopefully should be experienced as one that they were created for this avenue to the god goddess. What I want to explore a little bit is what you learned about sex magic, what you learned about what happens in the temples, anything we can apply to ourselves and our sexuality today. So what I have, so what I have learned basically that this whole tradition, you know, of sexuality was actually started, you know, as far as I know, in India started by a woman, Arda Triyambaka, you know, who did the sexual rituals for expansion of consciousness. And also there is a tradition of this in ancient Egypt, right, as a tradition of this from the temples of Isis, but even earlier than that. So that's a very, it's not, that's a very complex question, because it's not exactly that there are certain things you can do right now. You know what I mean? It is in a way that you have to, it is a complex kind of, it is a complex ritual that basically you have to believe, you have to be ready for this. So you have to understand that spiritually and sexuality can be one. You have to use it. So this is quite interesting and it's kind of in contradiction what we Westerners often feel. It has to be used for expansion of consciousness and preferably in all of these sources, it is when you are not in an emotional in a relationship with your partner. So it is not about improving your sexual life, so to speak. It is that the purpose of this union is for the expansion of consciousness. Do you know how long people were in the temple, were in their lessons, how long it took to progress and what it took to actually graduate or whatever they would call it back then. So for example, I'm initiated to one of the traditions. So I'm in initiation esoteric tantra. So it depends because it is the teacher who decides whether you're ready. So you know, they say how long is the path and the answer is as long as your ignorance. So if you are ready, then you're ready. So it can take a year let's say, maybe a few months, but usually it can take years. So the traditional number is seven to 12 years. Okay, so seven to 12 years. Having said so, so I don't want to people just give up. Doesn't mean you cannot enjoy your sexuality consciously, but I might experience, if you want me to share of expansion of consciousness through sexual act actually happens spontaneously. So I believe you write about that in your book and I was a little jealous. It sounded amazing. Yes. And you know what? So I treat it as an act of grace, right, because I'm not a tantric teacher, although you know, they are great tantric teachers and I can recommend someone. But this, however, I was already initiated. And also I fulfilled certain criteria because I was reading, you know, chapter 29 of Pula ritual, which describes it. So as kind of imbued with the teachings, you know, but lots of people have spontaneously without it have spontaneous experiences like that. And lots of people have a reaction like that. They said, wow, right. And I once had a woman I was talking to one and she says, I wouldn't mind just to have an orgasm, you know, never, never mind such a mind blowing experience. But I think we are given this kind of experience. So we know it is possible, you know, and I'm not going to pretend it didn't happen when I was in some kind of holy mood, you know, it was a very sexual encounter. So it's not like, you know, I was already committed, meditated, I studied the holy text, you know, from tantra and so on. But in this moment, I was casually after serious relationship, I was just very casually dating someone. And it was a very sexual relationship. And this is when it happened. But when you think about it, this is what the Hindu scriptures say you cannot be attached to the partner because it is not about relationship. There's too much emotional baggage. This is what they say. Although, yeah, devil's advocate. So Mary Magdalene and Yeshua were very much a committed couple. And they definitely practiced sacred sexuality together and a sacred relationship. And part of what she was doing with him was also with the sexuality, assisting him so that he was able to move into his light body and be ready for when it was required that he do the ascension. That's it. That's it. That's absolutely. But as I said, sometimes, you know, it is chosen that this couple is going to work on this together. But having said so, it's not that you cannot have a relationship. So thank you for this correction, because Mary Magdalene and Jesus are this example. But the purpose was not to have a relationship. They were in a relationship. But it was for him and had to ascend, for had to help him to ascend. Does it make sense? It is not for them to start a family necessarily. It does. I just have heard otherwise about this amazing love. And of course, they did create a child. They did create a family, Sarah and etc. And I and she also continued his teachings and her wisdom out into the world. So, you know, really interesting. And that's a long time, seven to 12 years. Although what a fun, long time that would be. But as I said, it can happen spontaneously. It happens spontaneously to me, you know, and with Sarah, it's an interesting story, because some people say that the name of that chat was actually Tamar or Tomar. And so which actually has some kind of biblical connotations as well and so on. And especially in the middle ages, people confuse sometimes two different people, because Sarah is actually, and I'm not sure I'm just saying my research, right? So they say that the real name was Tomar and they confuse it with Sarah, which is the black Madonna of the Gypsies, you know, who welcomed Mary Magdalene when she came to Southern France. You know, so, but I know that Margaret Starbert in her famous book, you know, about Mary Magdalene says that the child was Sarah. So I'm just saying that there are two traditions. One say that it was Sarah and one says that it was Tomar. And there is an even church in Portugal, you know, and there's a place called Tamar, you know, and apparently it is after the child of Mary Magdalene and Jesus. Cool factoid. I never heard that before. So I love this conversation about Tantra. I find it fascinating. So where does that Tantra specifically, where does that fit with your understanding of sexuality as a spiritual example? So in your book, you refer to one specific tradition started by a woman who you also say was corrupt and you also say was hijacked. Can you tie that together? Yes. So this woman, her name was Arda Triambaca and according to the myth, you know, although this is historical person, she was a daughter of the three original sages that came out from divine consciousness. And she started this lineage of esoteric Tantra in Hinduism when the use of sexuality for purpose of expansion of human consciousness. And I just want to say that what you said is true, you know, I'm just talking about one particular tradition that I explored. So, you know, I'm not, you know, expert on every type of sexuality and spirituality. So I'm just talking about my research. So this, she started this tradition, which was then passed on orally, because women were not allowed education, and then also to preserve this knowledge from one yogini or dakini to another. You know, dakini is from Buddhist esoteric tradition. And this women, you know, carried this deep philosophical and spiritual tradition and passed it on, you know, because it was a matriarchal lineage from woman to a woman. But in the 10th century, it was actually written down by a male philosopher, Abhinava Gupta, who invited women to his court, you know, he had women mathematicians and philosophers and prophets, you know, and he wrote down this tradition in his work, you know, Tantra Loka, which is the light of Tantras. And this is how we know about it, you know, because before it was just transmitted orally. However, once it was written down and got out of women's hands, it was then very often and continues to be, I'm sorry to say so, hijacked by the different gurus and some of them very famous spiritual teachers, who now because a woman is absolutely needed for this ascension, right, because a woman is the conduit. So they're using women for their own spiritual enlightenment, and then they discard them. And there are lots of stories up to modern day. And unfortunately, I witnessed it itself, although I was not involved, when actually some very famous gurus do it, you know, so they use women and completely disposable or they serve irrelevant done next. Yes, yes. And I've heard some horrible stories because then, you know, it's quite interesting because you are, this is how I imagine it from my experience of unfortunately, I was not a victim of anything like that. You know, you are creating this, you know, this ritual with this with your spiritual teacher, you know, and you have this experience of, you know, ascension, you come down eventually, but really, you know, you're one with the divine consciousness. And then basically, this didn't happen, you know, when you come down out of this and you adjust the tool, right. So there are lots of women who I know, who are now in this situation because, you know, they were simply used, right. So I would say we again as women, we really have to claim our sexuality and honor is, you know, that we have to stop being used, you know, because it is really, it empowers us to set this boundaries, you know, I am this, like, I have these meditations in the other goddess, I am a goddess Sundari, you know, imagine it, you know, imagine yourself as goddess Sundari, this full on sexual, totally you authentic being because each of us is different, right. Yeah. And carry this in body this, don't just give it away to anyone and don't definitely be used because some guy can get enlightenment because of this. So we have to start with honoring ourselves and our own sexuality first. And we have to put boundaries because there is something like an unconditional love, but that doesn't have to include our sexuality. We are in possession of our sexuality. Totally. We have the gift. Yeah. You talk about something in your book that was like, I haven't heard of this before, not in this form anyway. So let's go there about drinking each other's genital fluids. I think I'm saying it right to revitalize oneself. Your lovers, sexual fluids and tasting the fluids from mouth to mouth. I'm curious about that. Why do people do that and does it really revitalize? It's actually not necessarily to revitalize. This part of Tantra is talking about it simply because to honor, to fully accept your body and your partner's body, you know, and also it's kind of to break the rules because they say, you know, all there are all of us rules about sexuality, about their bodies and it's all always put in the disgusting terms when in fact it's a divine creation. It's created for enjoyment and for ascension and for enlightenment. So it's almost, they mixed actually and also some nostics did it too. So it's not only in India. So they mixed, for example, menstrual blood with wine and it's like honoring your womanhood completely. Like Europe goddess, everything about you is divine. And there's also lots of oral sex because tasting each other's sexual fluids, it is like the origination of life. It's like getting back in touch with the creation of the universe, you know, and that is beautiful. And you anointing your bodies, you know, when you say mantras with fragrant oils and so on. And at the end in my book, I have this prayer that the man gives, you know, I honor you as goddess Shakti, you know, like that you and it's just so beautiful. It's just complete acceptance of our embodiment because we are always shamed and especially women, you know, about our bodies, like in most institutional religions for the longest time, like menstruating was like the worst thing you had to like, you were not allowed to the temple or to a church or, you know, like, even in in pagan societies, you had to be somewhere, you know, at the edge of the village and so on. And this is like, I completely embrace your divinity as a goddess, you know, as a human, as a woman, I'm sorry. You know, so and so it's a ritual, it is I honor this. That's beautiful. It is beautiful. That's interesting. That's really interesting. So a spiritual alchemy and magic. Can you explain more about high magic and spiritual alchemy? Okay, so they are actually in some ways, you know, very similar because regular alchemy is basically transforming metals into gold. When spiritual alchemy, it is what Mary Magdal ended with Jesus. Spiritual alchemy is whatever you do, basically, for your spiritual conscious evolution, right? But there are rituals and certain words that you can say. So for example, that where we go that spiritual alchemy is higher magic, because there's a higher magic and lower magic. So for example, in wika tradition and in most magical traditions, it's lower magic. Why? Because you use the elements, physical elements, that are available to you to create something else, so to speak, right? So then there is a kind of cause and effect, which means there is a you create something and there's a price for it. So people who practice magic, they say they got what they wanted, but there was a high price to pay for it, because you play with the same energy. It's a kind of limiting energy. When higher magic, you go straight to divine consciousness. So it is called para language. So it means you speak the language of the gods, which has immediate creation because you don't play with what is already available for you, but you almost go into the field of all possibilities and just create this, you know, we take it from there through your words. So there are like in my book, I have, you know, especially ISIS was very good, you know, tradition of ISIS, you know, so there are very few sentences that you have to say and you have to say them correctly, which basically you create from the field of all possibilities, not from what is already created. Right, because then there is a price for it, like everything in life there, you go like, this is like, okay, call it Akashic records or future record, you know, or the quantum field, and you get it straight from there by using appropriate, you know, incantations, not, not from, you don't play with what is here. That's that, you know, that's higher magic, and it's called, and in Sanskrit, it's called para, which means the language of the gods. And by the way, talking about the gods, this is what happens after sexual alchemy, after doing that's exactly what I was thinking. I'm glad you're going there. Because after sexual alchemy, you know, is, is when you do the ritual and it's different from erotic connection, if you want me to explain it later, it is in sexual alchemy, they actually at the end, they say when they say this prayer, he says, and now you will be walking like goddesses and gods on earth, you know, because you connected with divine consciousness, except in this way you connected through sexual act, not for the user of your language, you know. And you mentioned, Barry, you mentioned ISIS practicing this. Are there other historical women who practice this alchemical magic in ancient times? Yes. So for example, at least we know many of them, but the one that is most famous, because she was also mentioned in Plato's dialogues, you know, that she was actually teaching Socrates, her name is Diotima, you know, and she was basically teaching him sexual alchemy, you know, how to use eros using like kind of Greek terminology, you know, for expansion of consciousness. And there are other women, for example, many of your listeners perhaps even learning school about Pythagoras, I think this is Pythagoras famous mathematician, but also known for sacred geometry and sacred numbers, you know, and his his teacher, who taught him all of this, was a Delphic oracle called the themostic Leah, you know, so he has learned everything from him, and he acknowledges this. And then he practiced it with his wife, Teano, you know, so his wife was his equal partner, and he she ran the school with him and in fact, when he died, she continued to run and the school after him. But you know, history, and this is when I talk about hijacking systemic hijacking, you have to really look for this women, because sometimes they're even called heteroi, which means they will just prostitute like Marie Magdalene. So every time a woman use sexual, I prefer alchemy than magic, right, because magic has different levels to this. For the expansion of human species, she is systematically called prostitute or a harlot. You know, so somebody, I think, and I hope I do not sound too conspiratorial, but there are some powers that do not want us to use this beautiful energy for the betterment of human beings, basically, right, because when women do it, they're automatically called harlot or prostitutes throughout history. Even the goddesses are being demeaned. Yeah, so in our today, then, is there a lineage of the goddess that is rising up? Are we she coming back? Is there a new collective experience happening? It's absolutely like, look at the revival of Marie Magdalene. Everybody is hungry for more of Marie Magdalene, and it's not the Marie Magdalene that is portrayed by regular religions, but the new Marie Magdalene that is actually more ancient, Marie Magdalene, that was repressed. So it is almost like she's emerging back from a subconscious, a collective subconscious. She's calling us, she's saying enough. It's like the goddess says enough. And in the other goddess, I say that she is one of the last, or I'm pretty sure of others, comes from Nimna, comes from Inanna, from Isis, and then Marie Magdalene, that this is the same goddess. And I don't know whether she reincarnated, embodied, or whether it's in our consciousness, but she's definitely coming back. And I think that sexuality is a big part of this, because how can we assent when we reject the most integral part of our beings, which is completely systematically degrade for us? You cannot, even psychologically, you cannot leave your shadow behind. You have to integrate your shadow. And it's not a shadow. It's actually your light. It's just portrayed as a shadow. So I think that this lineage of goddesses represented in the revival of Marie Magdalene actually is telling us to develop this other form of consciousness, which is more holistic, because we are all right now into technology. People want to go to Mars and you know, fine. But this is this kind of kind of mechanistic cause and effect intelligence, which has its limits. When all esoteric traditions talk about noses, the divine spark, about this unity consciousness, which is full of life, which is joyful, which doesn't see differences in a positive negative kind of way. And I call it goddess consciousness. And I think this lineage of goddesses that is emerging, they're calling upon us to do this. And one of the ways of doing is it is to fully accept and embody sexuality. Yay. And so with all this talk about the women, I become curious, what did you learn in all your spiritual detective work and academia work about men in the sense, how are men supposed to, if they were being trained or initiated, how should they be showing up for women as women, also sexually, as well as non sexually? What did you discover? I discovered to my surprise, you know, that men are extremely supportive of my work. And we say like, go Joanna, you have to do this, because you know, men were always had more sexual freedom that's given for granted, right? They could do whatever they wanted when we were called harlot, right? But they also were not told how to honor their sexuality, right? So they are struggling. They're just not very outspoken as per usual, you know, about it. So they are also struggling. They are also struggling from this division, you know, harlot and a mother. They also struggle the unsexuality. So either they move to some kind of weird stuff, or, you know, Zen Buddhism or, you know, like they design, move away from the sexuality, you know, into more aesthetic traditions. So they absolutely support, you know, support this kind of work. And they, it's mostly men who tell me, dear Joanna, bring back the goddess, you know, and they want men naturally like in Tantra want to, you know, engage with this powerful sexy woman. And, you know, but I think it's actually up to us. We have to wear women, take responsibility for this, you know, take responsibility for this and show up as the goddess. Yes. And treat a goddess like a goddess, please. But be authentic about it. Each goddess is a different goddess. It's not about pretending. It's not about being put on a pedestal. Like this is the goddess menstruates. Like this is what Tantra, you know, all of these things, right? So this is it. And men are saying, oh, this is the best, you know, they are ready. And I think they actually kind of wait for us to claim our power. Somebody like me who I have not done Tantra, I would very much like to, I wouldn't even know where to start. I mean, do I Google Tantra? How would you recommend anybody who's listening and says, I would like that, but I want to be really clear that I'm going to an elevated place that, I mean, obviously, safety and all that, but that it will actually produce a really powerful, wonderful kind of experience that somebody would desire. What would you recommend? Okay, so there are many good Tantric teachers, you know, who and, you know, but you have to be careful because some people call themselves Tantric teachers and they really have no clue. But for example, I know one teacher, her name is Margo Anand, you know, who is very well trained, who was with spiritual teachers, you know, for a long time, and she's a renowned spiritual Tantric teacher, right? So for example, I would personally recommend her services, you know, because not everybody can study and so on. But there are lots of good Tantric teachers and she's probably the one that I would recommend. Where is she located? What country? I think she travels a lot. So I think she's actually, she's French, but she's, I think also American citizen, if I'm correct. She spends lots of time in Bali and recently she was in Mexico, you know, so she travels a lot, but she has a website so you can look her up, Margo Anand. Margo, like with T at the end, Anand. She's a French woman and spent many years doing this. So this is definitely one way of doing it, somebody whom you trust. And I think that being a woman is also because you're not important because you know you're not going to be used by some sleazy teacher, right? Yeah, it is important. Absolutely. It is important. I've seen it and I'm still shocked. Oh yeah, absolutely. I know you write for academic publications on spiritual travel, which means you travel for spirituality. What kind of spiritual adventures do you go on? Where have you traveled? Could you name some places? Yeah, so one of my spiritual adventures was, for example, Jerusalem. It was a mind-blowing experience because there is definitely some kind of vortex there. I nearly went through this, I think, Jerusalem fever. I think it is called when some people think they are prophets, you know, because they're strong energies. So for example, an accountant or a dentist go to Jerusalem and they think they're prophets, you know, because it just the spiritual energy is so powerful. So I was walking around Jerusalem thinking, feeling this energy actually, you know, flowing through me. It's an amazing experience. It's just that this energy, I'll just talk maybe about two different places, because the spiritual energy in Jerusalem is extremely passionate. And I think the reason why, perhaps, is just Joana's comment, you know, maybe so much unrest in Jerusalem because there is so much powerful, passionate spiritual energy and it may be too much for humans to handle. Like I nearly lost it in Jerusalem. It was so powerful, you know, but I get there a lot because I have a lot of family in Israel, but I was probably too young to have that. Probably wasn't even aware of energy back then, so that wouldn't have happened. Yeah, I think you have to be ready, right? And then another place, it was when I went, for example, to anchor what in Cambodia, you know, but actually not anchor what, another what, because what is the like temples, you know, that were discovered there. And it was one temple, you know, just that nobody was there. It was just me and this guy on a motorcycle, whom I paid to take me there in the middle of nowhere, you know. And I had this experience of eternity, complete, there's a completely different energy, because it's kind of Hindu, Hindu temples, which later became Buddhist, but mostly Hindu. And it was this peaceful, eternal energy. And you have a complete realization that your eternal being, and this is just a wild adventure. And we're just all treating it a little bit too seriously, meaning you embodied here as an eternal being, and now you just got caught up and, you know, forgot that you was eternal being. But in this moment, you know, I had absolute realization, you know, that I'm just visiting. And actually, there was this kind of out of the temple, there was this kind of field, empty field, rice fields, I didn't dare to go there, because at the time it was still like minefield, you know, after Khmer Rouge. So I just saw it, and I saw this part is eternity. I saw almost like a portal, you know, this is eternity. And here I am on this adventure. And I forgot that I'm an eternal being and that we all are eternal beings. And this is just an adventure in embodiment, but it was just very quiet, not like, haha, like in Jerusalem, you know, it was like, aha, you know, like, peaceful sounds like peaceful. And just now I know kind of energy. Wow, beautiful. Last question. In part three of the other goddess, you investigate this notion that Mary Magdalene goes to France in her later years, I actually have a colleague, someone who's been on the show, who channels Mary Magdalene, by the way, who is right now in France because of this very reason, researching. So elaborate on that. So there is a very strong tradition, which is even I didn't know it even supported by the Catholic Church in France, I was completely not aware of this. But I did research with the help of a French scholar, Veronique Flayol, who, you know, there are records from the second century on. Okay, so very, very early records that 15 years after the crucifixion, Mary Magdalene, Lazarus, Sidonius, which was one of the healed men by Jesus, and some other people were thrown into a boat, you know, as a punishment because you know, yeah, and and without sales and hoping that, you know, into the parishes or something, right, but they were not perishing, you know, at sea. And in fact, just to let you know, if you ever sell Mediterranean seeds, very shallow and it's a really very peaceful sale. So according to this tradition, Mary Magdalene and her companions arrived near Marseilles in southern France. And there is this source called the Golden Legend, which was written down in the 12th century, but it's based on chronicles from earlier times, which describe Mary Magdalene exactly, and it was written by a Dominican monk, you know, but describes exactly like the Gnostics described her, which is basically this beautiful woman from a powerful family, family who is like a favorite disciple of Jesus, who is so eloquent, eloquent, and who has so much spiritual knowledge that when they go on the shore, you know, she starts teaching and everybody is amazed by her teachings. And then in this particular story, that's why I remember we're talking about Sarah and Tamar, that this gypsy shaman woman or gypsy queen who got a vision that this powerful woman is coming to the shores. She comes up to the beach, throws her coat, you know, to the so they can safely, you know, go on a beach without getting wet, you know, and welcomes her and her name is Sarah. So this is the gypsy tradition and they still go to this place every year on May 24th in southern France. All the gypsies from around the world, there's a big celebration and it is the black Sarah or the gypsy black Madonna. So this is the other version of the events. So and so that Mary Magdalene went there, but because she was seeking in an all, you know, she was already either enlightened or seeking in a knowledge, she was not interested in starting a church. So she went to a cave and meditated there for 30 years. And in this place still exists, you know, there are pilgrimages there. My friend Veronica takes people there. And it is a place of great spiritual power. So this is one version of a story, you know, that what happened to Mary Magdalene there. And just to add to this, it was three or four years ago, National Geographic did the 3D kind of representation of a skull in the church in southern France. I think it's Saint Maxime, because they claim that they have a skull of Mary Magdalene. And it is a skull indeed of a first century woman. So obviously we would never know, but you know, very possible because first century woman. And then they did a 3D kind of version of it, how she would look like. And it shows this kind of Mediterranean looking woman, you know, like a 3D, you can find it on National Geographic somewhere on YouTube also, you know, how possibly she could believe assuming it was Mary Magdalene. So and since then there's this very strong tradition of Mary Magdalene and pilgrimages to this day, you know, so some people think it started with Margaret Starbert who did a fantastic job on this with her book, you know. But it actually has been going on since early Middle Ages and people in this region totally believe in this, you know, so and in the southern western France, there was this group of Cathars who also believed that Mary Magdalene was not only a favorite disciple of Jesus, but his partner and his wife, right? So all over France, especially southern France, east or west, you know, there is a strong tradition. So I say there is definitely something into it, you know, because they were not in contact with each other, you know, this one group in eastern coast of southern France and west coast. So definitely, you know, strong possibility. Amazing. Thank you. So this is Dare to Dream. What are you next, Dare to Dream? What are your future dreams or goals? I am actually, you know, in a very beautiful time of my life because I finished The Other Goddess. It was just published maybe two months ago. So I'm enjoying what I'm doing now with you. And I am completely open to the experience of life now, you know. What will happen next, you know? And I'm considering maybe I'll write about God's consciousness, maybe I'll write more about, you know, sexuality and spirituality in a more practical way because, you know, questions pop up like you just write asked and so on. But I don't know, I might say that I am like a newborn baby, you know, because I wanted to write this book so much. And now when I wrote it, I feel like I'm completely open, you know? So what a beautiful place to be. To a new adventure. Where all things are like you spoke about earlier, Isis, I'm reading here, Isis creating from high magic, all, oh my gosh, my poor handwriting, all possibilities that you were talking about the quantum field. So it sounds like you have created this incredible spaciousness and capacity in yourself, in your life to invite all of that. So I look forward to seeing your next creations. Thank you. Thank you so much, Debbie. It was a great pleasure to be here for me as well. And for folks who want to find out more about Dr. Joanna Kuyava, go to her website, J-O-A-N-N-A-K-U-J-A-W-A dot com. And I end today's show with this quote from Lao Tzu. The essence of the universe is eternal. It is like an unfailing fountain of life, which flows forever in the vast and profound valley. It is called the primal female, the mysterious origin, the operation of the closing and the opening of the subtle gate of origin, perform the subtle intercourse of the universe. The mystical intercourse brings forth all things from the unseen sphere into the realm of the manifest. The mystical intercourse of yin and yang is the root of universal life. Its creativity and effectiveness are boundless. Subscribe to this number one transformation conversation Dare to Dream with Debbie Daschinger. If you are listening to the podcast and you like to see us, I welcome you to the YouTube channel. Go to youtube.com slash Debbie Daschinger. Leave a comment. I read them all and gosh, I really appreciate you guys so much for being on the journey. Next week on the Dare to Dream show featured is Alan Steinfeld. Alan, who for 30 years has hosted and produced the weekly television series New Realities in New York City and with Alan's media appearances, lectures and conferences, he informs millions about human potential, remote viewing and the nature of alien contact. For over five years, Alan Steinfeld has emceed the largest UFO event in the country contact in the desert. Please like the show, share it with your friends who you know will enjoy this conversation. And remember, honor yourself what a beautiful place to begin to dare to dream. Thanks for joining us.