 Good evening, everyone. Good afternoon. Good morning, depending on the point where you are. When, and obviously a lot of you guys have heard the whole issue about what has happened with John MacArthur, and I want to cover a couple of things, reiterate some things, cover some things, talk about some things that hadn't been talked about. I want to look at it from a couple of different other points as well, because I believe that there is something that can be learned, that can be gleaned from this whole thing. And so, oftentimes when you hear about something, especially involving a person like a John MacArthur, somebody who was of a certain stature, depending upon what side you want you're on, depending upon how you feel about the person, your affinity for the person or your dislike for that particular person, that can color how you see the whole thing. And so, there are going to be some that maybe once I say something, they're going to want to say that, well, you're one of these John MacArthur haters. Well, you all know that that's anything but the truth. As a matter of fact, I actually left up, I've got videos where I'm giving John MacArthur praise. And I thought about taking them down, but I said, no, because I want people to see when I say what I say that you can't come back and impugn me and my motive is to say that, well, you're not a John MacArthur fan, you're against him because that's being said now. That's being said about the person who wrote the article and it's being said about people who are calling into question the whole wisdom behind what they've done. And will they also be repentant? Some of you all know the story, so let's just go ahead and recount this again for some of you who don't know. There was a woman by the name of Elaine Gray who was a member of a community church where John MacArthur is the pastor. And there were some issues in the home there. There was some physical abuse of her as well as the children. And then it came to light that there was also some sexual abuse of the children. Well, she was going to counseling. She sought counseling from the church leadership. And throughout the course, and I won't go through all the details, but throughout the course, she had separated, she got a legal separation. She also ended up getting a protective order against her husband, pretty serious. And so she moved away from the husband. As a matter of fact, I believe he was out of the house, but she ended up getting permission from the state of California to leave the area with the children. The church had counseled her to stay with him. The church had talked to her and him. And from her perspective, and for many, it seemed as though the church was taking on her side, I mean, his side more than her side, and that they wanted them to, after having their little counseling sessions together to reconcile, he did write down some things that he admitted to, some things. Now, obviously, when someone does something bad, and in this case, we know this person's more of the full story now, that person, that kind of person he is, this wolf, this wicked person, in the middle of that, that person's not going to be completely honest. You all have been caught in something and still been wanting to hold on to the lie a little bit and not willing to divulge the entire story. So you're going to admit to some things. We've all been there. And so that's what was happening there because he did admit to some things. He admitted to all of it. And so they had counseled her to get back together to, and I won't go through some of the stuff because, again, they may dispute the issue as to whether they were saying that she'd need to suffer for, suffer, I guess I can't remember the exact wording, but to kind of suffer for Jesus, or I'm going to suffer in the way that, I don't even sure how they even put it, but just the word that she needs to also suffer as well, I guess in a godly sense, and let him be the head and lead her and guide her, all these different things. And so she decided I'm not getting back with him. And so after talking with her and her decision not to, then John MacArthur stands up before the church, you've all seen the video, I won't play it again, where he does, you know, calling to question her salvation. It is shaming. Now, I won't get into his motives at the time. I will assume that his intent was to shame her in the sense that it would cause her to come to Christ or to repent from his standpoint. And so he's calling her to repent and to return back to the husband. Well, clearly, especially knowing the facts now, she was the one who knew better. She did right. Now, there are a couple of things that come up and there's some parts about this that says this hardening. First of all, and I want to look at what other folks were saying also, and I'm going to talk about some other commentators who have made some statements as well, but you need to understand a couple of things that don't get talked about a lot. First of all, overall, the main victim here was this woman and those children, not the husband, not Grace Community Church, not John MacArthur, not any of the reputations, it was them. The second victim in all of this was the name of Christ. Let's not forget those two, the family, the mother and the children, and then the name of Christ. There's a high standard when you are called to leadership and when you're over someone, when you are the shepherd. We're going to talk about that in just a little bit, but you need to understand that there was two things that she was dealing with in terms of physical. She was getting past Lyme disease, so it had her in pain and fatigued and so forth, and so that was something that she was dealing with. But then on top of that, now she's having to deal with a cancer diagnosis, so now she's battling cancer. If you don't leave this entire discussion not thinking that this woman is awesome, if the person who doesn't shine the brightest outside of Jesus isn't this woman Elaine Gray, then you've got an issue. This woman actually comes across looking like a real hero, a real godly woman, because she hadn't come out to disparage anyone's name. And as she said that she's kind of kept quiet because of her children who are now adults, and so now she's saying something. Now, if there are any other motives behind her, if she's bothered, you know what if she is, she has that right, doesn't she? Because of what she suffered mentally, physically, as well as her children. And so that's something that needs to be kept in perspective. Now, one of the questions that have brought up, and we'll talk about that, how long ago did this happen? Do we know all the sides of the story? We haven't heard their side yet, okay? And so I heard someone say this, that at the time that this was happening, that the church with the information they were given did the best they could, and yes they made a mistake, but can we impugn them? Can we hold them accountable? Did they really do wrong? Well, I want to say yes. Now what should happen as a result of that, we'll talk about that later. But obviously, we want to look at the scriptures as our guide. And so one of the things we want to talk about is, let's get some guide from what what Proverbs says. So let's go go to the scriptures. Proverbs 1813 says, if one answers, gives an answer before he hears, it is folly and shame. A man's spirit will endure sickness, but a crushed spirit who can bear an intelligent heart acquires knowledge. And the ear of the wise seeks knowledge. A man's gift makes room for him and brings him before the great. The one who states his case first seems right until the other comes examined. Now three of those passages, we talk about 13. If one gives an answer before he hears it, it is his folly and shame. So the question, are we given an answer before we hear it? Before we hear all of it. Well, let's just let's be clear. Let's be honest guys. Name one thing that you've given an answer to that you've heard every single detail about that. Just name that one thing. You would never have a person ever convicted of a crime if if you had to wait for every single detail. It's never happened or it rarely happens, I should say. So that's not what the passage is saying. As well as you can know as much as you can know, well, you can give an answer, but you don't because what if the answer is or the rest of the details come out? I don't know, 20 years later, 30 years later, 40 years later, because if we're going to say if one gives an answer before he hears the matter, and that's for people given a commentary on it, well, then that not also hold true to Grace Community Church and John MacArthur, you gave an answer before you heard the whole thing. Now we're going to talk about that as to whether he heard the whole thing or not. And so then we're talking about in verse 15, passage number 15, an intelligent heart acquires knowledge and the ear of the wise seek knowledge. If we're going to make a comment on something, you want to get as much information as possible that and that's kind of what's happened, not necessarily us seeking it, but it's just kind of come out through Julie Roy's through court documents and so forth. And we'll talk about Julie Roy's a little bit later on. And then verse 17, the one who states his case first seems right until the other comes and examines it. But you know what that passage doesn't mean? It doesn't mean that the one who states his case first is always wrong because sometimes you state your case first and you are right. So let's not use passages to defend where someone's error has come up. Okay. Now I want to talk about how long ago this happened. This happened obviously in the early part of 2000 over 20 years ago or 20 years ago, but that's just so long for that that makes no sense. Why would we even bring that up? That's got to be that woman Julie Roy. She's bringing it up, right? She has to, she's out here. She's got a bullseye. She's got a dartboard with John MacArthur's face in the middle of on the bullseye. She's got a vendetta against him. She has a desire. She's got to axe the grind and she wants to grind it in John MacArthur's back. Well, let's just for the sake of this, say it's true. Let's say it's true. I'm not saying it's true. I'm not saying it's false. Again, I've never spoke with Julie Roy's. I've seen a couple of the interviews and I did see this past weekend's interview when she was on Sacred Woods broadcast. I know she also did one with Ruslan. I didn't find her to be not credible. Now, I did say that the time on the lavish lifestyle of him or the prosperous life, I didn't see the issue there. I didn't. I thought that maybe she might have been searching for a story, but she might have been right. I could be wrong, but I'm trying to be fair here. I'm not trying to get into her mind and look into her heart and see her motives. I don't know, but let's say for the sake of everyone who wants to impugn her integrity. Let's say she is wrong. Does that mean the story is wrong? Because let me just say this, guys. When you stand before the Lord, matter of fact, even now, you stand before God, you are cues of sin, a lot of sin. Well, who is the great accuser? Satan. Here's the question, guys. We know he's got a vendetta against you. He's got a vendetta against everybody who names the name of Christ. But here's the question. The things that Satan says that you've done, the accusation that he hurls against you before the Lord, are you guilty? Is he telling the truth? If Satan were to go before the Lord and says, no, Cory Minor has done a lot of gross sin in his life. What am I going to say? Yeah, but him, no. See, that played out with Adam and Eve. When Adam, when God said to Adam, what have you done? And what does he do? It was, it was, the woman you gave me and her, you and her. And then what goes out of line goes to her. That's played out, guys. We can't, we're not going to be, that doesn't, that doesn't fly. So in the Lord, when I go before him, you've done this, this, this, this, and this. How do you plead? Well, what happened was what the devil, the devil made me do it. No, he's not on trial here. It's my sin, my action. And I've got to say guilty. So there are times where even a person with bad motives makes an accusation against you and the person is correct. That, so that doesn't absolve you of your issue, your role. So let's put that aside, guys. We're going to judge what, what was stated and then go with that. That's all we can do. And so when we talk about how long ago something was, well, recall who Jesus is descended from. Jesus is descended from the line of Judah. Okay. Why is that? Well, it's not because he was the first born of Jacob's children. No, he's not the first born. He's not the second. He's that even the third. He's the fourth born. Well, how does the scepter pass to Judah? Well, let's go to the scriptures and let's see how this happens in Genesis 49. And I'm going somewhere. In Genesis 49 one, then Jacob called his sons and said, gather yourselves together that I may tell you what shall happen to you in the days to come. Assemble and listen. Oh, sons of Jacob, listen to Israel, your father, Reuben, you're my firstborn, my might, and the first fruits of my strength, preeminent indignity and preeminent in power, unstable as water. You shall not have preeminence because you went up to your father's bed, then defiled it. He went up to my couch. Now, what is Jacob talking about? Well, Jacob is talking about when he slept, when he slept with one of his father's countrymen, one of his, one of his ladies. Well, how long ago was that? It was a long time ago. Wait a second, father, daddy, you mean to tell me you're going to punish me now? That was a long time ago. Are you serious, father? Yeah, I'm dead serious. Well, not just him. He's got their two other brothers in front of Judah. Let's go back to the passages. Simeon and Levi are brothers, weapon of violence, are their swords. Let my soul come not into their counsel. O my glory, be not joined to their company, for in their anger they killed men, and in their wilfulness they hamstrung oxen. Cursed be their anger for it is fierce, and their wrath for it is cruel. I will divide them in Jacob and scatter them in Israel. But wait a second, father, that was a long time. Matter of fact, we were defending our honor, our family's honor. Long time ago, that didn't matter. There is no statute of limitations on a discretion, a sin. There is none. What God wants to find out, though, as it pertains to us, is our heart, is our level of repentance. And that's going to be an issue now. We don't know if that's here in this situation now, because we haven't heard anything, which brings to the next thing. Someone is going to say, well, shouldn't we wait to hear from John MacArthur or the church on this issue? Well, what if we never hear anything on this issue? What if they say, you know what, small thing, not going to worry about it, it's in the past, what's done is done? Let's just move on. Because there is something to public relations where if something happens, sometimes you just ignore it, just no comment and move on. And what will happen next year, we'll forget about it next week, next month. Who knows? Something's going to happen in the next week or two, and we might move on and forget about it. So I don't know if that's the strategy, but let's just be clear. Some of these people that we talk about aren't going to answer questions. They're questions out there that they haven't answered before. They're questions that our statements that John MacArthur has made, and we've tried to get answers, and he's not giving the answer. And obviously, in his position, he is a very senior person in the body. And so it would be, I wouldn't do it if I were him. I'm not answering some boob on YouTube's question. I'm not doing that. But he does owe an answer to somebody to the lady, as well as the church congregation, even those that weren't there when it happened. And so this issue about trying to get both sides, we may never ever get both sides of the equation. But do you have to have all the details or all the information pertinent to both sides? Well, let's go back to the Bible again. Paul says in 1 Corinthians chapter five, he said, it is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you and of the kind that is not tolerated even among the pagans, for a man has his father's wife, and you are arrogant, ought you not rather to mourn, let him who has done this be removed from among you. You know what Paul didn't say? Paul didn't say what is that young man's side of the story. He didn't do that. He didn't go and find out, okay, fine, let's get both sides. Sometimes you don't need the whole, all of the story. I know you did this. Why? Because sometimes your rationale, your reasoning doesn't matter. Now there's, here's what we do know. The woman was afraid to go back to her husband. She sought the church for counseling, for biblical counseling, and didn't get what she was looking for. And so she decided, I'm not going back, I'm protecting my children. And so she was put out. Well, who was wrong? We know she wasn't, and we know the church was. And I'm not lambasting the church for being wrong. Every church is wrong on something. Matter of fact, every church is wrong about something every week. That just happens, okay? Now someone's going to say, well, the church did not know about the sexual abuse. The church knew about the order of protection, the protective order. They don't just hand those out guys. They don't just, you know what, anybody just come in, just fill out application, you get it, you'll get a protective order because there are children involved. And so this is the father of a spouse. So there is something that needs to be fleshed out in the courts to get that. They don't just hand those out. Now, do they maybe, do they hand them out maybe too frequently? I don't know. I don't know. But in this case, they knew about it and they asked her to rescind it. Can I give you guys a passage that you all may want to bring up from time to time? It's not necessarily germane in one sense to the church, but it is germane. Go with me to Matthew chapter 18. I want you guys to see something. If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his faults between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refused to listen to you, to them, tell it to the church. And if he refused to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you buy on earth, now I'll leave that alone for there. Now, some people say that when the church is dealing with her, they go to her one on one and they bring them before the council and so forth. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. That is the wrong application. First of all, the church wasn't personally sinned against. But you know who followed this? Elaine Gray followed this to a tee. If your brother or someone sins against you, in this case her husband, her husband did wrong. What does she do? She goes, well, obviously I'm pretty sure she spoke to him, but then she goes to somebody else, to the elders of the church. What should have happened was her going to the church about what her husband is doing, they should have treated him like the Gentile and removed him. No, instead, the roles were flipped. She goes with a concern, a cry for help, asking him and she's wanting for him to have a repentant heart. She's praying for this man and instead of dealing with him, you turn and look at her and you treat her as though the husband went to you all about her and he admitted some things. Wisdom has to come in at some point in time and guys, I'm saying this, I've been in church leadership, I've had church discipline against me. I know what it's like to have certain accusations hurled. I've dealt with other members of the church hurling accusations and what I was required to do even when I was dealing with youth and they had different allegations, one against their parent. There's some things that just by law that we are required to do that if the person has done something to put a child in jeopardy, then you fix that. Here's what should never happen. I want to be crystal clear about this. The state of California should not be better at dealing with the church than the church. The state of California should not be better at protecting the sheep than the shepherd. See, I saw a video, I won't name the name of the person because, and we'll talk about this later, but a video that stated, I think the title was when the wolves attacked the shepherd. No, no, no, bad title, bad title. The guy was, he talked about, he had the thumbnails up about, let's see, I think it was Ruslan with Seiko Wood's thumbnail and some other people who had thumbnails up about this whole incident and he called them haters. One, you couldn't put my thumbnail up there because, again, you're not going to ever be able to say that I'm a hater of John MacArthur. You just not. So when you state certain things that's one of their haters, that's a problem. That's a huge problem. But when you say that when wolves attack the shepherd, no, what about when the shepherd allows a wolf to attack? What about when the shepherd doesn't defend a sheep from a wolf? That's your job. That is your job as a pastor, as the church elders, the leadership. That's your job. You can't call the other people for saying, hey, wait a second, what's going on here? Because guys, there's a bigger lesson. There's a bigger lesson. I'll talk about this later on, why this is so important. It's not about just dealing with this one church's failure in church leadership and protecting them. No, there's two big lessons and we are missing them. I get it, it's salacious. It can get clicks. It can get likes with it. But we're going to do this to talk about the Bible and why and how we can apply this to us. There's two big things that are just being overlooked. And so, we should wait to hear from them. It happened so long ago. And what did John MacArthur know or didn't know? Let's just be clear, guys. When a letterhead goes out, it doesn't say John MacArthur. But guess what it did say? It said Grace Community Church. Well, even though it says Grace Community Church, let's be clear. It says John MacArthur. Why? Grace Community Church is not Grace Community Church without John MacArthur. Granted, there's a thousand wonderful godly men who the Lord will use. He's used John MacArthur. I'm saying he's used John MacArthur in this role for over 50 years. And he's made Grace U the ministry and Grace Community Church the church that it is because of how he's done. Remember, there is a John MacArthur Study Bible, not a Grace Community Church Study Bible. There's a John MacArthur Study Bible. So when that letterhead goes out about what she ought to do, that's John MacArthur. But then when John MacArthur gets up and speaks, that's all him. See, as a pastor, you are responsible. It may not be your fault, but you are responsible for everything that happens. But then when you get up and you put your name and your voice and your face to it, not only are you responsible, but you're also at fault, either for the good or for the bad. And so to tell her to get out, to put her children out as well. Yeah, you got to explain to now. Is that something that that off with his head? We got to cut his head off. Well, two questions that I would love to know may never get the answer was to what and how much information to John MacArthur know. Because the lady stated that that she never spoke with John MacArthur. Now, some folks are saying that's a good thing that that lets him off the hook. No, that doesn't let him off the hook. That doesn't let him off the hook because he didn't speak with her. That impunes him more. You cannot put a person out of your, you can't move a sheep out without having spoken to the person. It's not as though John MacArthur had five more folks to put out of church that week. Guys, church doesn't happen often. And so it wasn't like he had a, I got a long list of folks. I got to get rid of Frank, I got to get rid of Bob, Mary and Sue, and then some other folks. So I needed to look at possibly putting them out. No, that's not how that works. And so if there are more, if you sit down and you deal with that person, remember, she followed Matthew 18 correctly and brought to the church. So it calls into question the wisdom of the church. It just does, guys. Again, somebody was wrong and it wasn't her. I'm going to read something. Matter of fact, let me read it now. I'm not going to, I'm not going to put up, I thought about putting it on the screen, but I'm not going to do it because I want to make sure I don't say anything that is incorrect, that I don't want to, well, not incorrect, but I don't want to expose someone because there's, there are these details. This is the actual, and it was sent to me, this is the actual court filings. And so this is on record at the court. And so all of this stuff has been stipulated to by both parties. This is not something that can be, that has to be refuted. Okay. Now, someone can file and contest the findings of a court, but this is in the court record. So let me just read this part here. Let's see. This is after it goes through a litany of things that was done, that were done by Daniel or David, I'm sorry, David Gray. Let's see. She could not breathe. She saw it while she was going to die. All three children cried. Okay. This after he had, he had done something to the wife. Let me go ahead and read this to you guys. Matter of fact, let me, let me move this over here because I don't want my voice to kind of move. I want you to hear, hear me clearly. And I'm reading this says the following day, the wife contacted a lawyer who advised her, this, this is a court, this court document. Wife contacted the head of the children's ministry after, I'm sorry. Let me back up. Uh, the wife contacted the lawyer who advised her to leave immediately with her children and obtain a restraining order, which she did. The wife contacted the head of the children's ministry at their church, who assisted her in moving out of the family home for several days until the restraining order took effect and the appellate moved out of the family home. So David moved out. Appellate and his wife began attending marriage, marriage counseling at the church in September, 2001, conducted by a pastor at the church. During the sessions, appellate, appellate admitted to physically abusing the children. I won't say the other child's name. He also admitted to wife in writing that he had not dressed modestly in front of the children and that he had physically and emotionally abused one of the children. So now he's admitted to some details in this session. Of course, there's some writings that he is, that he admitted to doing with the kids. And we find out later that he was actually sexually assaulted the kids. Wife wanted to reconcile with appellate. She was told during the counseling session that she and the children were to forgive the appellate, to act as if nothing had happened and to never speak of the problem again, among themselves or to anyone else. This is a court record. She did not agree with that approach and wanted to obtain marriage counseling and counseling for the children from a licensed therapist. So I go to the church to get some help. I'm not getting help. Let me go to someone outside of the church. If the church won't help me, I'm not supposed to just stand there and not get help because the church might be derelict in their duty. And let's just assume, let's pretend the name on the building isn't Grace Community Church and the pastor isn't John McCarthy. Let's say it's first church of Timbuktu with Pastor Bubba. Okay? Or, or let's go one better. Let's pretend like this is Elevation Church and this is Stephen Furtick. Let's do that. Let's pretend like it's Elevation Church and Stephen Furtick. The tone changes now, doesn't it? Let's pretend like it's Hillsong and it's Brian Houston. The tone changes, doesn't it? The way we see things, our lenses just, we put them different glasses then. Let's pretend that it's Ravi Zacharias. Oh yeah, the tone changes a lot now. I'll get to that in a second though. So, the church forbade it, her going to outside a licensed therapist. The church forbade it and appellant refuse worldly counseling because it was unbiblical and wrong. By the way guys, stop. Secular counseling is not unbiblical. It's not, okay? It is not something, if you can't, there are churches that don't have the capacity or the ability to offer counseling. There are lay pastors. This guy's a plumber by day and a pastor at night and on the weekends, okay? And he hasn't had the training, loves the Lord, loves the scriptures and so forth and leading the best he can but he didn't have the ability to give certain counseling in certain areas. And so, what do you do? You go to someone who does. Now, there are licensed Christian therapists and maybe that's what she sought after. I don't know. But to say that you cannot go outside of the actual church, local church body to get it, that's not biblical either. Anyway, back to what I was reading. Let's see. Although appellant admitted wrongdoing to the church, I'm sorry, wife felt she she showed, the wife felt he showed no empathy for the children because he said they were irrational and sinful to be afraid of him. Although appellant admitted wrong doing to the church leaders, he told his family that he disciplined his family, I mean his children, the normal way and that the cancer must have gone to the wife's brain. Remember, she was dealing with cancer and that this cancer has gone to her brain. She discontinued the church counseling and withdrew from church membership in November 2001 after the pastor commanded her to drop the restraining order. She was formally shunned by the church and all of its members. Now, it goes on to say that the appellant had monitored visitations with the children at the church from July to November after which by agreement with the wife, the visits took place in public settings with the monitored present. Wife began professional counseling with the children. Although the children responded positively to the appellant during visitations, they were still very upset and expressed to the wife that the therapist and to the therapist that they were afraid of him. Let's see. Let me drop down and read this part. Pursuant to a stipulation between wife and appellant, the family law court awarded sole physical custody to the children to wife. In December 2002, the wife sought and obtained a court order permitting her to move to Northern California, apparently to be closer to her family from whom she needed assistance with children as she continued to undergo cancer treatment. Now, I'm not going to read the rest of this, guys. Let me move this back over here. I'm not going to read the rest of that, but the point is this. This is information that the church also knew before, during, and after. I'm going to say after they put them out, but then they found this after. This is information that they knew about. Okay. So, first of all, imagine if it were you. Imagine what she's going through. And here's a person that apparently from what's been said that she hadn't lost faith in Christ, she could have blamed the church, but she didn't. Or at least she didn't blame the body. She just blamed she had an issue with a particular church, but we've got a big problem, guys. We got a big problem. First of all, she was right. They were wrong. No if ands, but about it. She was right. They were wrong. Now, someone's going to say, how much did they hear? You don't put anybody out of a church until you hear the whole matter. That's the whole point of this. And if John MacArthur, now I've got, I have sat and racked my head, racked my brain as to what's the proper take. If John MacArthur did not know about the abuse, let's say he didn't. Let's say he's got a side of the story. If he didn't know, that's a problem. That's a problem. But if you did know about the abuse and you sent her out there, you wanted her to get rid to rescind the order of protection. And then you did. By the way, I know in some states, I'm not sure if it's the same in California, but if there's an order of protection, you rescind that order of protection and the children are hurt as a result of that. In some states, you're in trouble because you have, and I've seen this, you have endangered that child. You have knowingly put that child in harm, even if it was for the father. That happened. Now, I don't know if that's the case in California. Who knows? It's California. It might be. So I don't want to jump ahead to the two main points. I'm getting there. But what we do know is she was right. The church was wrong. And John MacArthur being the head of the church and to get up and to speak about it and to shame her was wrong. Can I, can I, can I read some more passages? Someone's going to say, Cory, though, let me put this pass on the screen. First, 7519, do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin, rebuked them in the presence of all so that they may stand in fear. Now, I read both of those past for a couple of reasons. One, am I or anyone else allowed to say anything about John MacArthur? Well, sure we are. Sure we are. And I'm not, I'm not rebuking. I'm calling out an issue here. I'm not saying John MacArthur off with your head. I'm saying we got a, you got, we got a serious problem to deal with. And if you have done wrong, according to this very same passage, you ought to be, you ought to be rebuked in the presence of all. That means that we're going to kill you. That means that we're going to, you know, get rid of your retirement, stop your stipend, no more royal teas or anything from the John MacArthur study Bible. No, that's what we're saying. But we're just calling out. And then you have to come back and say, you know what? I was wrong. I did wrong. Here's why he should make a public profession, not just to the church because we all, because John MacArthur is public, because we've got study Bibles that bear his name. We've got commentaries, all these things. There's grace in you. And so if you want people to buy into your teaching, not just your doctrine teaching, but also your example, that's what has to happen. That's what happened. But instead of what we're getting guys is we are getting people who are taking sides. We are people getting people who want to go against Julie Roy's motives. First of all, if Julie Roy's motives are your defense, you have no defense. I wouldn't care if Julie Roy's right now is in a car at a stakeout outside of John MacArthur's house. That would not excuse him of any wrongdoing. Get away from the fact that the person who brought this to light, because what we did not do is once the secular community got a hold of what Ravi Zacharias did or what Carl Lentz did or Eddie Long did. Why do you think CNN is running this about Eddie Long? Why are they talking about Ravi Zacharias? We didn't impute their motives. And so don't do the same for her. Now, I don't know anything about Julie Roy's. I don't know if she's doctrineally sound. I don't know if she's a heretic. I don't know anything about. I don't know if she's the most godly woman on the planet. I do not know. However, if this was Julie Roy's exposing Ravi Zacharias, if she was exposing Kenneth Copeland, people don't have a problem with people constantly exposing Kenneth Copeland. If you go to YouTube right now, you'll find these discernment ministries that are calling out Stephen Furtick, Kenneth Copeland, TD Jakes, who you name it. They're okay because you're exposing someone I don't like. But what about exposing someone I do like? You know what should be the tact when we deal with someone, when someone has dealt with it, that I like, that I remember guys, I left the church over with from a pastor who I love dearly. So I can like you and still say, you know what, that's not right. That's just, that's just not right. And I would, I don't want to take part in someone else's sin. And I don't want to enable someone else to take part of it. And let's be clear, doing the wrong thing knowingly is sin. We don't come back and fix it when you've been told how you sinned against me. That's what reconciliation is guys. Well, I found it that I've done wrong and I come back. And so that's a, that's a huge issue. That's a very big issue. What we have guys, something that's probably worse, probably worse than what has transpired. How could it be worse than what the church did? Well, there's something that's worse than that. I'm not saying I don't want to make light of what happened to the lady and her children. But we got something even more sinister happening. We've got this sin of idolatry happening. And no, I'm not calling. I see women comments. I'm not calling John MacArthur Wicked. I'm not calling him. I'm not saying he's, I'm not saying that because some folks are going to say he's wicked because of doctrine. Listen, we're not talking about doctrine issues guys. This applies to everybody. This applies to if, if, if your mother or your father got caught in this, if your child got caught in this, this applies to every person on the planet guys. This is where the adults get to talk. This is not for the children to say immature things and pick sides and make aspersions or ascribe certain things based on the position on whose team I'm on. I'm watching a game and I thought it was a foul because that was my teammate, but you, the other opposing team, you're fans of that team. And you think that person is not a, it was not a foul because it was your teammate. It was your fan. I mean, then you're cheering for us. That's how we do. There was a few years ago, and I like this, this analogy because it works well. The Cowboys were playing the Green Bay Packers in Desbrago before catch. It was ruled incomplete. Cowboys fans yell to this day, it was a catch. Folks who don't like the Cowboys say it was not a catch. Well, because who we're, who we're cheering for colors how we see things, but the scriptures don't, the scriptures do not. So we've got this thing where we start idolizing people. Paul put it this way. Can I go to the passage? If you don't hold on mine, let me go back to the passage again in 1 Corinthians chapter three. He says, but I brothers, chapter three, verse one of 1 Corinthians, but I brothers could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh as infants in Christ. Why? I fed you with milk, not solid food for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not ready. Look what he says. For you are still a flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not flesh behaving only in a human way? Look what he says. For when one says I follow John MacArthur and another says that I follow Vodibhachem and another fault says I follow Paul Washer and another says that I follow Tony Evans and another says that I follow Benny Hinn and another fault says that I follow, uh, Teddy Jakes. He says, are you not being merely human? Look at verse five. What then is Paul, is Apollo's? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believe as the Lord assigned to each. And so again, who are they? They are servants through whom you believe as the Lord assigned to each. I planted Apollo's water, but God gave the growth or gives the growth, gives the increase. So you've got people that follow John MacArthur. Okay, fine. But when you get to the point where you think that he can, that he is impeccable, that he cannot be touched, we got a problem. If you, I don't care who it is, clear wrongdoing made a mistake. However you want to put it, sin made a mistake in discretion, not wise, however you want to put it, but you can acknowledge that. Y'all recall when, uh, after Paul and the gang, not like Coole and the gang, but Paul and the gang, they are healing people. Go with me to Acts 14, 13. And matter of fact, now let's start in verse eight. Now in Lystra, there was a man sitting who could not use his feet. He was crippled from birth and had never walked. Paul listened. I mean, he listened to Paul and Paul looking intently at him, seeing that he had faith to be made well, said in a loud voice, stand upright on your feet. And he sprang up and began to walk. Look at this. And when the crowd saw that Paul had, what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices saying in, uh, Lyconian, the gods have come down to us in the likeness of men. Barnabas, they called Zeus and Paul Hermes because he was a chief speaker and the priests of Zeus, whose temple was at the entrance of the city, brought an oxen and garland to the gate and wanted to offer sacrifice with the crowds. Look at this. But when the Paul, when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul heard of it, what did they do? They tore their garments and rushed out into the crowds, crying out. Look what he says, men, why are you doing these things? We also are men of light nature with you. And we bring you good news. Let me just stop there. Their point is don't worship us. Don't idolize us. We're just regular old men. We're just Joe Blow. That's it. Some of these guys were fishermen, tax collectors, this and that. This guy got the gout. This guy got a bad back. This guy can't spell too correctly. Just regular old people. This guy got bad eyesight. This guy has too much hair. Just regular people. Don't lift us up, but that's what we're doing now. See, guys, that's the sin right there. That is the sin. And so when you are going to start lifting somebody up as though this person cannot be touched, you are guilty of idolatry and be careful. You are indicating that you are not a believer. You indicate who you put your trust in, in John MacArthur, in Lawson, in Bakum, in Jakes, in Furti. All these people with these big names. Now, this was happening with Paul, and Paul rebukes him for that. There's a problem. We have this issue to where if a person is a, and I was going to, I thought about taking the John MacArthur video down, but I said, you know, I'm going to leave it up, because just in case somebody wants to come around and say that, well, you're a John MacArthur hater. Okay, I'll point you to the videos that I did where I gave John MacArthur praise. I'll do that. Now, if you can't call balls and strikes, then sit down. Get somewhere. Be silent. Again, these are the matters for adults. And if you can't be being an adult in this decision, I mean, in this issue and make just, just basic, basic assessments here. Because the other big lesson in this is that other churches need to know that you can't do this. If someone has placed their family in the care of you as a shepherd and you betray that trust, you should not be a shepherd. Let me say that again. If a family places their trust, their care for their family into your hands as a shepherd and you betray that, matter of fact, you send them back out and you coddle the wolf, you should not be a shepherd. Now, I don't know all the details. And so right now, at this, at this very moment, I'm not calling, I'm not saying, Hey, John MacArthur needs to, needs to step down. John MacArthur needs to get fired. That's not what I'm saying. I've got some big ifs. And I'm pretty sure these big ifs won't ever get answered. And so how do we apply this to us? The two things, the two important things. One, if you are a pastor, if you're in leadership, follow the thing godly. Yeah, you rely on your staff, on your elders, you do, you absolutely do because you can't be in all those places. But when it comes down to when a person has to be put out and is, and is your name, is your face, literally your face and your voice in this service, and you don't do your due diligence, you don't know all the, all the particulars. Shame on you, brother. You're not, you're not, you're not that busy. If you, if you are that busy, divide your flock up and give some others people to be the shepherd. If you're that busy to where you can't tend to the people to their needs. If you can't do that, then just stop. And so if you are, remember, there's a stricter condemnation on the leaders. There's a stricter. And so what happens is people look at this and they'll say, well, we look bad. You guys look bad. Look what you guys did. You were going to send this person out. And so the world will look and see, not that we necessarily care about the world and how they look at things, but the world will look and see. And then after you put this person out, what's the last, what's the lasting image or word or thing in our ear after this, you start singing amazing grace as it, because right now it looks like it was a big thumb in the person's eye. Yeah. Get out amazing grace. It doesn't look good. It's not a good look. That's why, that's why it's that important guys to be the standard is high. The standard is high. And as a pastor, as an elder, no one forced you, made you, you weren't drafted into the pastorship. You desired it. And Paul says you desire a good thing. It's a noble thing. And they're the requirements. You've got to manage the household and take care of the sheep. You do. And then the other thing, the big thing is that people are idolizing this. If in this, you cannot at least say John MacArthur was wrong on this front, then shame on you. Matter of fact, if you cannot see the error in John MacArthur and the church, you're going to have to open your Bible, turn off all, turn off YouTube, turn off Facebook, social media, just read your Bible. That's what you're going to have to do. Find a pastor, go to that church that's not on TV, just some regular guy, someone that you don't have to idolize. That's what you got to do because this is ridiculous. It really, this is a conversation we shouldn't, we should not be having this conversation if the church would have done its job. And that's the point. But then we've got this bigger issue of people idolizing these people. And so there's our issues guy. I'm not going to call out the other channels who have come to the defense of MacArthur. I'm not going to call out other people who have not, they've had everything else to say about everybody else. They've talked about all the low hanging fruits, the heretics. You can talk about Marcus Riders all day long and be right. You can pretty much say, hey, you know what, Marcus Riders doesn't wash his hands and you'd probably, you'd probably be right. That's how we do it. But again, someone who's like, yeah, this guy's, this, this ain't Marcus Riders we're talking about. Then what are you going to do? And so guys, that's our issue. That's our issue. Who do you follow? Do you follow Paul? Do you follow Barnabas? Do you follow Paulus? Do you follow John MacArthur or do you follow Christ?