 What is the clearest understanding of the appropriate use of force to defend oneself or family that harmonizes scenarios from the Old Testament up through the early church and how it relates to or differs from the threat of harm for simply being Christian? You know, I don't know of any command that makes self-defense a sin, even self-defense by the use of force a sin. I mean people probably would think of the turn the other cheek passage. You know, the context for that is largely again self-preservation and I think you know you can you can take that choice but what I'm trying to say is that any kind of self-defense doesn't have to be a sort of first resort and so I look at the turn the other cheek command as leaving the door open to not defending yourself at all or at the very least not having it be sort of a reflex you know first response you know kind of thing but when it pertains to other people the text doesn't say turn everybody else's cheek you know especially you know if it's someone in your family someone that you have you know there's there's there's the whole biblical principle of when it's in your power to do good for someone you ought to do it you know from the book of James you know that I would suggest that saving somebody's life is probably a good thing to do for them and you know if that requires the use of force then I don't see anything that forbids that so that I don't I don't see the turn the other cheek thing is sort of this cut and dried no no nuancing possible sort of statement I think there is some nuancing there you know I don't know of any principle that says you know Christians must be willing to be abused in at all times places and manners as well what what I think the point of the command is that that you're not combative you're not the aggressor you know you're not this isn't a first response you know kind of thing you're not looking for a fight you know that sort of thing it mean what Jesus did say and I think this this command largely gets misunderstood you know I've not come to bring peace I've come to bring a sword or you know he tells them the disciples at one point to go out and you know take a sword with them though those are not offensive weapon sort of endorsements in other words Jesus isn't saying well I'm here to pick a fight you know and I'm and I want you guys to go out and pick fights as well the whole idea behind those things is that what Jesus knew that when he came when he started preaching who he was and he knew where it was going to lead he knew it would result in you know upheaval and persecution he knew the early church that was going to be targeted and so he actually advocates in those examples having something with you to defend yourself but what I don't want to see is I don't want to see statements like that taken out of context as far as well now we get this is our first response you know somebody comes after us because we're Christians we're going to go beat the crap out of them you know it that isn't the point at all it's a very defensive posture it's not the first response again but and these things do have a context and I and I don't think that the point of them is either be the aggressor or you know be the doormat you know unto death I mean if it's just you I mean you you know you you can make that decision I don't think you're committing suicide you know necessarily or something like that but I certainly think there's there is good reason to believe again from the Gospels and some of the statements you know I've just alluded to that you are allowed to defend yourself I mean you think back into the Old Testament I mean God there are plenty of examples where God expected his people to defend themselves you know against their enemies you know when they were threatened with attack or serious bodily harm or death I mean you like you're not forbidden from building fences you're not forbidden from having standing armies you're not forbidden I mean you even have the Avenger of Blood kind of thing which is which is a little bit different but again it's it's it's this notion that God isn't repulsed by using physical force for some appropriate purpose so the idea of physical force itself is not repugnant to God so I think the point of a lot of this slang which is again it can't be used to support aggression or again a first response kind of reaction as opposed to defending yourself as kind of a last resort or again to protect others. I think another problem is that Christians somehow think the use of force might be okay for less than severe bodily threat again what when I think of use for use of force and I would when I see it discussed in scripture it it's not just a defense against oh my city government made another regulation and I don't like it so I'm gonna go down there and you know again beat the tarot of somebody or I'm gonna threaten their their family you know and say you can't do that this is a terrible law this is persecuting you know my church so I'm gonna I'm gonna go threaten you with bodily harm I mean that this this is absurd but I mentioned it because we do have some of this thinking in the church you know that the church has somehow been conflated with the sons of liberty or something you know in the revolutionary period you know that we're being oppressed by the king so let's go you know burn somebody out somebody's house down or destroy their property or something like that again these are absurd conflations and I do see them in places in the church we have to see them for what they are that they're they're conflating two different things they're combining two different things that shouldn't be combined so I think we have to guard against that what I'm talking about what I think of the intent of the question is is this situation where you have severe bodily harm perhaps you know threat of death you know kind of thing can you defend yourself and I think yeah you you can certainly defend yourself I mean this whole idea about authority you know Romans 13 we're quick to quote that but Romans 13 of course presupposes that the government is doing good things it's you know punishing the wicked and rewarding the the person who's who's obedient we often aren't in those situations and I'm not going to say that I'm not going to contradict Paul and say those powers that that be are aren't really ordained by God I think they are ordained by God no no government authority I mean just let's go back and think about the book of Daniel you know because Daniel actually has these discussions when he's interpreting Nebuchadnezzar's degree no excuse me Nebuchadnezzar's dream no governing authority gets to where it is unless God allows it God sets up kings and he tears them down so it's true that every governing authority is where it is because God has allowed that but that doesn't mean that God endorses it he doesn't mean he's happy with it it doesn't even mean that it's not under wrath okay in the Old Testament yeah God used Assyria he used Babylon to punish his own people but they were also under wrath I mean their their judgment was pending and it was going to be even worse than you know what he was using them for so I think again we need to contextualize Romans 13 a little bit I mean the apostles themselves said we ought to obey God rather than man you go back in the Old Testament you have the Egyptian midwives you know they were blessed by God because they didn't kill the babies you know Daniel's friends they didn't bow down you know to the image of Nebuchadnezzar and they were you know the Lord saved them when it when you know their their own lives were in peril Obadiah he's sort of a forgotten figure not not the one that the prophet the prophetic books named after but during the time of Elijah Obadiah was the guy who hid the prophets of the Lord from under you know right under Ahab's nose okay God rewarded him for that these are all resistances to governing authority and what I'm saying is they're not contradictory to Romans 13 I mean the rule of thumb is when a governing authority mandates or tries to force you to sin against the higher authority the highest authority which would be God you're under no obligation to obey that I'm sorry Lord I had to go worship bail because the king said so that's not acceptable you know God isn't gonna say oh well I'll give you a pass for that one you know no that's not acceptable and so I do think in scripture we have a principle that there is a time when Christians are are not only allowed to resist you know that sort of authority but they're they're sort of expected to resist that that authority and you might be in a context where you can defend yourself a lot of these contexts of course you can't and you should be willing again to suffer if you're suffering for the right things as you know Peter so often said in his writings because Jesus suffered but you may also run into contexts where you can protect yourself and again I see glimpses of this in the Gospels where Jesus warns his followers that this is what it's going to come to so take a sword with you you know be able to defend yourself to fight off your enemies you know he didn't just go out and say you know when somebody comes out with at you with a sword just lay down there and say where do you stab me somewhere make it quick you know that kind of thing we don't we don't see that but we never see the use of a sword or again the use of a force as a first response or in in an aggressive mode where something you know less than you know life and limb is at stake so I think you can look at scriptural examples and put together you know a picture of you know how we how it's appropriate to respond in certain situations you know we can sit here and theorize and do the do the philosophizing about how it's best to stay out of harm's way and I think sure that's good but you're not always going to be able to to do that so you know I used to tell my kids you know and they're older now I mean they're they're basically grown but I would still tell them look I want you to know that if there is a guy coming through the room or through through the window into your room and you start yelling and dad comes into the room and he's trying to get you I want you to know that dad will kill that guy before he lets him take you I want you to know that your life is more important than that guy's life you know that I that I won't I won't stop and say oh you know I like boy I could I could probably protect my daughter here if I killed this guy but other I can't I can't figure out a way to do oh well you know it's just too bad it's just too bad you know I wish I could have found a less violent way to protect my kids I'm not you know I wanted my kids to know that dad was their defender and he would do whatever it took and again I think we're we're obligated you know to do that in extreme circumstances because it's in the if it's in the