 This program is brought to you by Cable Franchise V's and generous donations from viewers like you Welcome to the Amherst Plenty Board meeting of February 3rd 2021 basically Governor Baker's executive orders suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law GL chapter 30a Section 20 and signed Thursday chapter or excuse me Thursday, March 12th 2020 This plenty board meeting is being held virtually using the zoom platform. My name is Jack jumps I can as a chair of the point Amherst Plenty Board I'm calling this meeting to order at like 6 32 p.m This meeting is being recorded is being available Via Amherst media live stream minutes are being taken as normal board members I will take a roll call when I call your name a mute yourself answer affirmately and then place yourself back on mute Maria Chow Come along Andrew McDougal Doug Marshall Janet McGowan Johanna Newman present and myself present Board members of technical difficulties arise We may need to pause temporarily to correct the problem and they continue the meeting if you do not have technical issues Please let Pam know Discussion may be suspended while the technical issues are addressed in the minutes will note if this occurred Please use your raised hand function to ask to ask a question or make a comment I will see your raised hand and calling you on you to speak After speaking remember to remute the cell Opportunity for public comment will be provided to the general public comment item and other appropriate times during the meeting. Please be aware the board will respond to comments during the General public comment period if you wish to make a comment during the public comment period You must join the meeting via zoom the zoom teleconferencing link. The link is shown on the slide That is shown This link is also listed on the meeting agenda Post on the website via the calendar listening for this meeting or you can go to the Planning board web page and click on the most recent agenda which lists the zoom link at the top of the page Please indicate if you wish to make a comment by clicking the raise hand button when public comment is solicited If you have joined the zoom meeting is a telephone Please indicate if you wish to make a comment by pressing start on in your telephone when called on Please identify yourself by stating your full name and address yourself put yourself back on Intermute when finished residents can express their views for up to three minutes at the discretion of the planning board chair If a speaker does not comply with these guidelines or exceeds there a lot of time their participation Participation will be disconnected from the meeting. So Also note that we are having a joint meeting with the community resources committee of the town council and we will have them You know enter in after we review our minutes and have a public comment period. So Oops, I'm getting my agenda here So the minutes And what do we have for minutes again? Oh, you have May 20th and January 20th, okay Yes, I'm just bringing those up you know Myself I did not get the the the packet today in the mail and that was like a little discussion and maybe Maybe we just go, you know digital and not expect and go through the expense of sending out That but I did not get my packet. I don't think Maria did either and Andrew no duck. Oh, so nobody got their packet today. So, you know, I'm wondering it's like Maybe we should just go digital, you know, especially with the zoom mean, you know platform that we're using I printed out, you know, what I needed to so We can discuss that later So so the minutes I'm just opening up what I need to hear so we have The May 20th 2020 minutes Christine Gray Mullin was the chair at that time. All right They go back a little bit. So let's see you could vote Janet could vote Maria and Doug Andrew Tom and Johanna would abstain Okay, I Move to accept the minutes of May 21st 19 I'm sorry 2020 run wrong thing Right a second Maria second, okay, so Any further discussion on those minutes You can take a roll call Maria Prover I proved but I think Doug's hands raised. Oh, all right. I have to oh Yeah, I apologize bug Yeah, I just thought I'd say that I I do wait to get the packet usually before I review things So I have not read the minutes that we have here, huh, but I'm scanning through them and it you know Maybe so I may abstain from the voting Okay, um, I kind of in I'm in the same boat there We could put this off till next time Okay, okay, let's do that then and So let's push off the minutes then and this move into the public comment Period then Okay I'm just gonna take a peek. We do have a hand and then let's make if I you know, please the planning board matters in my mate If I forget Let's to discuss this going digital Versus, you know mailing out this package Especially when we're doing zooming. Yeah, I think it might really facilitate things and provide some efficiencies For us so Public comment here. Yeah. Oh, I see one hand out there Pam Rooney sir McKee Jerry wise Okay, you want to just start at the top? Yes, okay Hi, Pam Hi everybody. Thanks for having us It's a little tough. I'll just make a comment It's a little tough to comment on things that haven't been discussed yet. So this is just a a general statement that we had a good district presentation from Evan and Steve the other night and What struck me in this conversation with the CRC and the planning board is That it's it's a little murky. It's a little unclear where the bouncing red ball is at any given time I don't know the responsibilities of the CRC in in Analyzing and delving into the details for those of us who want to be Engaged in the conversation the roll up your sleeves and really, you know Talk about the issues and talk about how to tweak things to make them good for the town It's a little tough to follow. So that's just kind of my General statement and maybe you all can clarify that tonight In the past we had the zoning subcommittee and Then through the zoning subcommittee the planning board To hash out those details and literally they would sit with either people that had brought a zoning article for consideration or those who might Might be a stakeholder in the conversation that was that was being held But it was very clear where one went to participate in that conversation And I think if you all could help clarify that when you have joint meetings, it's even less clear whose Ball whose court this ball is in so thank you. But and thank you You good work Thank you Ham I I just I guess if if you could kind of like distill that into One more Remark what it exactly is your is your quest because I'm a little bit unclear. I Don't know when in your conversation about the sea. I I don't really know the role of the CRC Compared to the all called the traditional role of The zoning subcommittee and the planning board who were really the purveyors and managers of zoning articles They would work it through they would hold the hearings and then they would present it I say meeting so I I get confused And I don't know which meetings to attend because I am interested in zoning If I should sit in on all the CRC meetings in case they talk about 40 hour zoning Yes, or should I only you know focus on the planning board and or the zoning subcommittees? Okay, I got you. So, you know, yeah, so it's a work in progress and actually our joint committee is addressing that You know that that protocol and our process moving forward. So that's good. Okay. Thank you Sarah Hi, Sarah She dropped off, but we have Jerry Yep, so I'm gonna ask Can I interrupt for a moment? Darcy Dumont wants to be invited into the meeting. I think she dropped off too I just got a little text about that. I Don't know Pam if you can see her or let her in or I'm not sure whatever magic that you do So Darcy is not a member of the community resources committee and she is currently in attendees and that is where she should be Yeah, I think she may not be able to she's there She's got a razor hand Right Okay for this moment Jerry Jerry Weiss Yes, and asked to speak the Jerry, please Okay, thank you so I think everybody at this meeting has gotten my letter which has a much more Detailed explanation of my questions and concerns and I would start by saying that The overarching concern question I have is what is what are your goals? for in my humble opinion this massive rezoning of Amherst that is being proposed and the Set goal question part B is what is your evidence that such rezoning will accomplish those goals? And then my letter spells out a lot of more questions about what your evidence is for Different aspects about how will it how will it actually improve affordability? How many units will it will it take in order to accomplish those goals of affordability and inclusivity and? You know making neighborhoods more variable Those those questions are all spelled out in the document I you probably don't want me to read the whole thing tonight You know what we have an issue with the mailing of the packet So I'm not sure that we saw your document. Oh and Ham Do you know if that was I? Have not seen that document. So was it sent to the planning board mr. Weiss or or the CRC Yeah, unfortunately, I sent it. I sent it to the entire council about a week or so ago and and I'm Apologizing I only sent it to the planning board today when I heard about this meeting And nobody's fault that I didn't know about the meeting but my own so I'm not blaming anybody But I did Send it this morning. I think to the planning board I could try I could try to do do a shorter version of it if you would like Yeah, I just think that we we just need to see it and then I'm sure it's fine as is You know, I don't think you need to make a shorter version, but um Um, we can certainly forward it to the board tomorrow I haven't seen it. I think mr. Weiss if he would send it to the planning department email I did Okay, I put it. I sent it to planning at amherst mass gov Amherst m a gov. Yep Jerry I hate to interrupt but but the town council got it So I could forward what you sent to the town council on to chris and jack and pam to forward on to the planning board Okay, I don't know what happened to it, but My sent box said it. That's it now Okay, thank you. Thank you, mandy jim Very good. Um, and then we have I thought we had Darcy's hand up, but it's not up now You have ira brick is next and followed by jenna keller. Okay, so ira Hello, ira. Hi, how are you? Very well. Thank you Thank you Um, I'm ira brick 255 strong street. I'm not gonna say anything that will be a great surprise because I've been Kind of vocal on this but I just want to maybe put a new spin on a few of these is I know that the priorities that are being considered now are from the master plan And though people work very hard on the master plan It is now a decade old and a lot of things have Changed in the world and in amherst. There's more housing in north amherst on university drive There's you know news over the last couple of years that private public partnerships might put more dorms on campus and The changing economies of Of higher education Not to mention that a lot of the priorities That are being stressed are kind of cherry picked out of the master plan out of context of over 15 Stresses on character of the neighborhood and there's been a lot of expression by the community that I think has been kind of overlooked By the government making you know Less impact if it is a you know Template of a letter that still is a vote a lot of people that don't want the tall buildings in the overly dense neighborhoods And also question whether we even still have a housing crisis And plus something that I've recommended there are other diagnoses and cures for this problem that I don't really feel the town is looking at for instance Other things that can be tweaked in the economics of student houses changing maximum unrelated People in the house might change things in a way that I think I've sent you the opinion of a Ithaca world famous economist that said that it worked in Ithaca and also To use the consultant money that apparently is still there To create exactly what we want the entire town to look like when I look at your Version of what downtown Amherst should look like in I think it's 2039 It's a scary vision It's more of what people have strongly expressed They don't want and there is something that I would be fine with I'm not anti development But I think that three-story buildings Lining the street and if people could figure out how to make those profitable and try to lure developers that would want to build New england style three-story buildings that are mixed use That would attract all kinds of Community members to us. So I'm saying this again a couple of new little pieces, but I just think that you are Being too hasty with things that could have a lot of unwanted repercussions I say that with respect. I know how hard you will work And thank you so much Thank you Jerry's hand is still up And I'm gonna I've just unmuted him Jerry. Did you is that a residual hand? Yes, I'm sorry. That's a the residual hand. I'll lower my hand. All right. Thank you so much And janet color Us janet Hi janet Janet I've enabled you to speak. She's she's muted There you go Yeah Okay, um, so um I Too would like to know What the goals are for this massive rezoning for this really big Effort um and the framework for clarifying What results you're seeking where? When I began to dive into Um the CRC proposals um They Are extremely hard to work with in the current form for A constituent You have to uh We need uh A map showing where And what results you want? Um Or are we to assume that you really do want to? um Densify even into say a zone like the flood prone currency Is that your intention? Um I really could use some clarity. I think a lot of us could use some clarity here and um would seek Maps and photos that are easily accessible for us So that we could know what to expect um and uh Also, if you would share with us of any um Reasons that you have to believe that Proposal a will result in um outcome be So where has that? Worked where has there been a problem? Where has a given proposal work to solve that problem? Would you share that with us and then finally? um I'm looking for Concrete proposals from um the planning board and the council and the crc for um Having some robust public participation on this. I was very impressed with uh Public outreach proposal for housing, but um, this is a much much bigger task and has much uh Much greater implications and um Really am urging you to provide robust public Gimp sooner rather than later. Thanks So uh Chris do you want to speak to that because I heard some like, you know zoning uh, or the flood plain issues I know that's coming along. Um I don't know if you want to I would say once crc is Formally called to order we can start addressing that as part of that. Okay. That means very good. So we can move on to that then Um, you have you have one more. Um comment from hill to green bomb Oh, sorry ready Hi hill death I'd like to put in another plug for my favorite subject And that's the the new 101 page economic development document allowed the town to adopt starter Housing and clustered affordable cluster developments And I'm really pushing hard for that because this town is overwhelmingly rental housing And there's very and Evan I have to thank Evan for putting this bug in my head There's really no place anymore To port orchard valley. So what we used to call tunile toni's Uh Little development office pleasant street back in the 60s There's no place to put these up anymore And I think only affordable developments can afford to do it and I'd like You guys In the zoning subcommittee and crc to look really seriously At getting some workforce housing here. That's affordable that can be owner occupied where The workforce of this town can build up equity in their own house And then when they want to move up to something a little bit higher On the income bracket, they they can pass this on To somebody else who's lower down on the scale and just beginning their their Work and career in this town and we really need Places the people who work here can afford to live in town And we don't have anything like it and I think Very much that the land over on belter town road that you're in the process of purchasing is a really good place to put Owner occupied starter housing and so I'm putting another plug in for that every time I have a chance that we have enough rental and not only do The people who buy the starter homes benefit but the town benefits by having a stable population that lives there As opposed to the overwhelmingly transient population where we go from about 36 38 000 year round down to under 20 000 in the summertime We need more people to have a stake in Keeping this town prosperous So that's my lecture for tonight Thank you So I would like to call the crc and mandy So she can have her group Thank you. Um, so it is 657 and seeing a quorum of the community resources committee Present. I will call The crc to order for this special meeting on february 3rd 2021 Jack did all the virtual remote participation stuff. So I will not repeat that but I will make sure all of our members can hear us And we can hear them And and then we're going to move right in. Um, thank you jack and the planning board for having us So i'm just going to call a roll here and i'm going to go back down just the way I see it steve schreiber here dorthy pam Here and welcome dorthy to your back to the crc for your first meeting. Um, thank you. I'm thrilled to be back um I'm here and I confused evan ross evan Here and mandy joe hannity is here. So all five of us are here. Welcome. Um, uh jack and i I believe agreed that I will be sort of presiding over this portion of the joint meeting. I thank The planning department and the planning board for suggesting this joint meeting to sort of Have an initial discussion about zoning priorities and I want to I want to Lead off with this is an initial discussion To start the whole process for you know, I know crc was not called to order during the public comment We're going to get better at figuring out those two joint agendas as we do this more often. Um But all crc members were here for that and we are at the beginning of a process There aren't any concrete proposals on the table yet This is before the council has even referred anything concrete to the committees to hold the public hearings as required by law and i'm hoping tonight will start to flesh out and and You know sort of clarify How this might work because this is really going to be the first time these two boards and committees Along with the planning department really delve into sort of joint efforts on dealing with zoning by law changes and in in a In a big way And the plan for tonight's joint part of the meeting is sort of threefold The first part is that rob and chris will give a preliminary status report on where they are regarding a work plan um That then we as a joint group can discuss and give feedback on and that work plan will be things like What's coming first or second what they see and and things like that and chris and rob will will Give a preliminary one tonight. Um I I do not know how complete it is Because we had originally talked about it being more complete for the february 9th crc meetings so this is sort of a progress update on that and And it will be more my my assumption is it will be more fleshed out come next tuesday at the crc meeting after that discussion jack and i will be updating the bodies on discussions we've had regarding collaboration and potentially more joint meetings and how That can happen in relationship to the work plan that rob and chris will be talking about and discussion will follow with that and then after that we hoped to hold some actual discussion collaborative discussion and all on The challenges faced in the bl and as they relate to sort of the zoning priorities that the council directed the town manager to to sort of come in with uh revisions for and so that the hope of that conversation is again a very first start Of how conversations between the two committees could work And what they might look like and for us to sort of dip our toe into that it will by no means be the last conversations These bodies have or the last time it's the very first time people will have to hear where we are on the challenges visions Where we hope zoning changes for that area might bring us And all and those those discussions will continue because there as I said there are nothing on the table right now despite some of the specificity of the zoning priorities that the council Directed the town manager to work on Um, so with that I will take I see one hand. I really would like to go to chris and rob soon So I will recognize janet initially, but but after that we're going to move to chris and rob janet Um, thank you. I just I have a question a clarification point is I thought that this um item on the agenda Was just talking about the work plan and collaboration And so I didn't realize that we were going into the bl And because as we learning in the zoning subcommittee is quite, um murky and complicated and we have you know, we've been working on maps and different Ways of envisioning what should be in the bl And so I I didn't even realize that was on the agenda and then I chris christine berth stop had sent me your memo And it looked like we're talking more substantively About the bl and I know there's tons of people interested in the bl issues, um And I know that they probably don't if I didn't realize we're talking about the bl I'm sure they didn't so I was wondering to me it looks like it wasn't really properly noticed But I just I think we have enough to talk about and I would love to talk about How we're going to work together, you know public participation plan and all that stuff So I just I would I just don't think we can go into the substantive issue that wasn't properly noticed So I just I don't want to go into the territory. So that was that was my My reaction to that. I was quite surprised when I read your Your memo. Thank you, Janet for voicing that concern the notice and the agendas all said zoning priorities They were not specific about what type of discussion or any Specificity to that and the zoning priorities list a number of things. So the belief is that that notice was Acceptable under open meeting law in order to have a discussion even on the substantive matters not just on a work plan And so so we will continue that It'll all depend on though How far we go into that on timing because I know you guys have more stuff to do on planning board It is the only thing noticed for crc. We're aiming to finish all of this I think the crc portion in this part by about 8 30 or so. I think is what I talked to jack about And as I said, it will not be the only time we talk Substance on bl or or anything related to bl It's a it's a toe in the water to show how these conversations would start So I guess my point is if I didn't realize we were talking about the bl In substance because that says zoning amendment priorities work plan. I don't think anyone else did so I do think it's an open meeting law violation, but thank you So we will start with chris and rob Good evening. Thanks for having us. Thank you for this joint meeting. We are really happy to Be here to start talking about zoning bylaw amendments And the beginning of a work plan As mentioned, we hope to with feedback tonight and a little bit more time Really have a more concrete complete plan for the february night meeting and discussion Along with more details about what what has been worked on We have a very brief group of slides To go through tonight To talk about these items that we will be working on and how we see the Next several weeks to go Christine's going to start it off with pams assistance Are you ready for the slides ready for the slides? Okay, let me just find them. Where are they? That's not them They should be on your desktop pan. They are on my desktop, but they're not showing up Here when I asked to share So when I do this Can you see them? No I sent them to um, mandy joe and jack. Yep. I can try to bring them up I got them. Hold on Can you see it now? Yeah, go to the first slide. So this is just a little Outline of How we got here and what we're doing So first, um, this is really the first meeting that we've had with With both bodies. It's really the first meeting we've had with the planning board to talk about zoning amendments since the Town council Asked us to start working on them So this is a draft work plan. May I have the next slide, please? On january 4th the town council voted to direct the town manager to present zoning amendments to the town council And the zoning amendments were divided into two groups and assigned due dates There was a phase one set of zoning amendments and a phase two set I think they were initially termed the march set and the september set Um, so the building commissioner and the planning department assessed the list and we're working on developing a work plan to achieve the stated goals The planning department and the building commission will present the work plan to the crc community resources committee on february 9th May I have the next slide, please? Um, I I wanted to review what the town council asked the town manager to ask us to do um in the first set of Of uh requests there were um dealing with the bl zoning district the limited business zoning district and trying to figure out How to allow Housing to occur there. There is existing housing there, but for the most part it's non conforming So how can we allow housing to occur in the bl zoning district? The second one that we have listed here is adding footnote a To maximum lot coverage and maximum building coverage and what that means is that Footnote a has to do with a special permit that either the planning board or the zoning board of appeals can grant To modify dimensional Requirements so in this case it would be modifying maximum lot coverage and maximum building coverage The third one we have listed here is revising the supplemental dwelling unit bylaw And the idea is to allow a larger supplemental dwelling unit Then we currently allow 800 square feet and we'd like to be able to offer one that would be as big as a thousand square feet The next one here is demolition delay bylaw revisions And this is something that the historical commission has been working on for quite a while And I think members of town council are aware of some of the difficulties with dealing with with Sort of enforcing the demolition delay bylaw to make it to make it work It really doesn't work very well in its current state. So they're working on Coming up with a revised version and they're working with the planning department on that and that of course the building commissioner The the I think fifth thing here is working with town council to begin to Talk about housing types and what kinds of housing types might be allowed in different parts of town currently Um, I think single family houses are allowed in all residential districts um, and I believe that Two family houses are also allowed in all residential districts And some of them require special permit, but we'd like to consider the possibility of allowing other types of housing like perhaps Triplexes or quadriplexes Um, so that's a conversation that will be starting Um sometime this year The sixth one is that right move apartments to site plan review in more districts So currently apartments are allowed by site plan review in the bg general business district But they're not uh everywhere else Special permit is required special permit from the zoning board of appeals So the idea is to make it easier to develop apartments in different uh districts um, the next one is uh remove footnote m and footnote m is We only have three footnotes left in the dimensional table, but footnote m is um Requiring it deals with the rg general residence district And for townhouses and apartments that are built in the rg district There's a requirement to have in addition to the initial Lot area that's required in the rg district For each dwelling unit that you add there you need to have 4 000 square feet of Additional lot area and the idea here is to Eliminate footnote m so you can revert to the The amount of additional lot area that you need for any other type of residential use So if you have a duplex or Uh I guess a duplex is a good example. Um, you only need to have 2,500 square feet an additional Lot area so that's a discussion that we've actually started that discussion in a pretty robust way in the uh zoning subcommittee meeting The last one here under phase one is revising the definition of apartments. So apartments are currently limited to You can only have four 24 units in an apartment Building and you have to have a mix of units You can't have any more than 50 percent of any one particular type And there are other issues related to apartments. So if you can show me the next slide, please And uh, this is phase two. So these are things that the town council asked us to come back with by um september The first phase of things were things that they wanted us to come back with by march so um Anyway by september the the request was that we would deal with dimensional regulations in the general residence and village center residence districts And for the most part that would deal with lot area and frontage and things like that Um lowering barriers to development of duplexes and triplexes. So that's something that we uh Are starting the conversation in phase one, but we would continue the conversation in phase two Looking at frontage regulations for residential districts because we know that some Some properties particularly in the rg district Are like one foot short of what they need to be In compliance with the zoning bylaw and therefore they're considered to be non-conforming. So there are things that Need to be looked at there. The next one is look at appropriate uses for village centers. And I think this was Mentioned by darthie pam as being important if we're going to put more Residential development and village centers. We really need to look at what other types of support Uses could go there such as you know little stores to buy bread or buy, you know milk or Address or whatever you wanted to buy but not to have to go And get in your car and drive somewhere to you know be able to have these services Um, the last one here is transportation issues and generally speaking the planning board doesn't Talk too much about transportation issues. That's really The billywick of the department of public works and the transportation advisory committee But there may be some things that the planning board could do about transportation issues And the last one here is hiring a consultant To guide us into creating form-based design guidelines or form-based code To make our buildings more In keeping with the buildings that are already here. So those are the things that the town council asked us to do May I have the next slide, please? So rob is going to take over from here Okay, so as you saw that's a pretty big list of items And those were the priorities established by the council And you know, there's another list of priorities that staff has that you know hasn't been Incorporated into that yet. So we're going to talk a little bit about that in a couple of minutes But really what we needed to do as a planning department staff is look at this list Look at the things that we feel are necessary to Maybe move along with it that aren't listed there And what can we put together for a work plan that will Be something that could be accomplished this spring and possibly be ready for Review and consideration This summer if you can go on to the next slide, please so the The town as as chris mentioned the town council list included all these items in the first group of bullets The bl district is something that not only the zoning subcommittee began Quite a bit of work on in a previous couple of weeks ago in one of their Meeting sessions But the town staff and planning staff has started looking at this in great detail as well And we'll continue to do that and you know work together with the zoning subcommittee and share thoughts and ideas as We bring concepts together that we think are worthy of consideration The elimination of footnote m as chris mentioned This is the area increase for the additional unit on on a property Is is well into discussion and study and being analyzed And and looked at both by the sub zoning subcommittee and staff We also would like to address the apartment's definition And the supplemental dwelling units. So this first group of council Priorities is something that we think could be worked on both by staff zoning subcommittee and be ready for In be ready for Viewing for showing a complete concept of an idea in each of these areas For the march 9th crc meeting. So that in no way is suggesting that a an amendment is complete ready to move on to consideration, but it will have uh, hopefully the back up information all the supporting documents and Good idea or ideas Uh to start the process to really think about a an amendment in those areas Now some of the planning department priorities That we'll continue to work on during this time We feel go along with some of these items up above in the town council list. For example, inclusionary zoning We think now might be the time to look at that How it's triggered the the applicability of the inclusionary zoning requirements, especially if we're looking at increase in the density in the bl district Now might be the time to look at that. So we we expect to have ideas and suggestions on how to do that Uh recodification. This has been talked about and called a number of different things As we've been discussing zoning bylaw amendments over the past months and really what we're hoping to do is have a reformatted bylaw with a very initial level of corrections adjustments, nothing too substantive for changes at this point to get us a good cleaner more presentable document That is is going to be good for all of us working forward and continue to make adjustments and additions and changes in the future And we'll be ready to talk more about that and probably even show What that is starting to look like In at the February 9th or shortly after set of meetings We also believe the mixed use building Use category needs to be defined. It needs to be a set of standards that goes along with with those buildings Uh specifically to deal with the percentage of commercial or non-residential space And how that first floor of those the building gets gets used For those non-residential uses You've all heard about flood maps in the past and then chris did talk a little bit about demo delay The the historic commission has done a lot of great work on the demo delay advancing that along Staff has made comments on on their draft and will continue to work with the historic commission to Come up with a document that Will be ready to move forward next slide, please So we're you know, we're looking at a very rough schedule at this point But these are the group of meetings coming up over the next couple of months that we think will be able to Talk about our progress and Work on these these matters A couple of meetings have already occurred zoning subcommittee tonight's meeting, of course And we are going to be actively preparing for the February 9th meeting to to really finalize this this work plan Talk more specifically about what what staff in the zoning subcommittee has either Realized through the studies or analysis that's occurring and possibly even talk about some Some concepts for amendment amendments and how to deal with some of these these questions and issues We've got a zoning subcommittee in the the upcoming planning board meetings where If there's time and interest we'll be able to provide updates And show our progress On the work we are completing The CRC meeting on the 23rd if it's available would be a good time to probably see Some of these items really come together and shape up into what a a bylaw amendment proposal could start to look like The following zoning subcommittee planning board meetings could be used again for for those updates And our goal is to get to the march 9th meeting timeframe with a package a package of materials that support or I guess provide background on what's being requested And and Supporting information for the bet what staff in the zoning subcommittee And you know to the input that we received along the way during these series of meetings that we think is the best approach for the moment and really begin that That that that effort to refine Hopefully make adjustments and with the with the idea and at least at this point that we would be moving those Those concepts further along in the process working our way towards Submission to the council in planning board So that's that's the end of our slide presentation. Chris, feel free to add anything that you think I might have missed Otherwise, we can certainly be ready for questions I don't have anything to add Thank you chris and rob for that. Um, that was Appreciated and I think crc is going to look forward to hearing more on tuesday And are there any initial thoughts from I've any crc or planning board members regarding what we just heard I'm gonna let the hands populate jack Yeah, I'm just I'm Very disturbed by this comment By the planning board member that mentioned open meeting law violation I think we need to rectify this Now because it's it's just It doesn't sit well with me. I feel like this was advertised Zoning priorities. We have 14 items Uh, we're trying to work, you know through a plan and a schedule and Can we please rectify this? um Because I I'm not comfortable with the with with the comment Um, that we're violating open meeting law Okay, thank you jack. Um, I will say the way the crc meeting was noticed was presentation discussion items a zoning priorities And that's all it said and so that um covers everything which is why I believe we have adequately um complied with open meeting law and that crc notice Also indicated that it was joined with the planning board um, and so that agenda and notice on the calendar Covered that it would be with the planning board that zoning priorities would be discussed um as the discussion item that would be joined with the planning board for this special meeting um and based on that and that covers everything we've planned on discussing tonight um in in the you know given that open meeting law requires only adequate notice and um That I think fulfills that requirement that the crc meeting agenda that said it would be joint with the planning board said zoning priorities without any specification beyond that is that um to jack does that I'm not sure what else you would want me to I I mean I I would You know ask janet to like What's going on? um Because I just feel like that it just There there's some we need some consensus here With our discussions we we need to move forward and um Janet you raised your hand. I will recognize you out of the line here for discussion on work plan so jack I I can understand how you might be reacting to this but um, it's nothing personal to me It's it's literally I talked to maria at the zoning subcommittee yesterday and asked her what this agenda item was I talked to you last week about it like what were you talking about it because I was confused But I didn't understand why you were all getting together to talk about a work plan And then I also talked to christine about it and it was just Work plan work print work plan And I never heard that it was anything substantive And so, you know, I'm kind of an organized planning person and I had no idea until this afternoon That we were going to start talking about the bl which I know is very intricate and um, you know, if we want to start talking about All the stuff that dug marshal did and the different thing maps I'm I'm totally down for that, but I just don't think we noticed it Properly, and it's just a legal issue. And so I didn't look at the c or c um agenda I looked at our agenda and So I'm just responding to that and so the the purpose of opening meeting law is to give the public notice of what's going to be discussed And so I think what mendee joe is saying, hey, we told you And then I'm saying the planning board didn't even tell me and I had you know inquired about it over and over So it's you know, that's that's where I'm coming from. It's not personal and I'm glad we're talking about this work plan because you know That's what I'm here for and I've been thinking about a lot. So I hope you know, it's just the law, you know And I'm seeing it that way and I understand what mendee joe is saying based on her agenda, you know So I don't know where that leaves us, but I hope it's not a personal thing I mean, I think as attorneys we're often just sort of You know I'm a step away from things a lot of times because I'm just like, oh, that's just the rule. Let's enforce it. That's fair people I've noticed I know a lot of people would love to talk about the bl who live right next to the bl and probably didn't realize it looking at our agenda So that's it anyone else want to make a comment on What janet has raised Steve shriver is raising I see that steve and yohana have raised their hands since and when I asked that so steve and yohana So we're not the ones that decide whether or not there's an open medium law violation So I think that if the planning board member Wants to complain or anyone else wants to complain. They should do that But I think we should, you know forge ahead with the agenda that in my opinion was properly noticed the ohana um, I echo stevens sentiments I To me the process seems fine and let's move on Andrew I'm with janet on this one. I think that the planning board expectation. I think a lot of folks Or who follow the planning board? They'll look at our agenda and not consider looking at the The crc even in a joint meeting and I think you know janet's comments about raising the sub multiple times and not getting the answer pretty They're pretty powerful. So I would I would agree. It seems like it wasn't properly noticed I'm going to make a decision that before we go on there were two other things that no one has mentioned as potentially problematic the the presentation we just heard in a discussion following that presentation and then A summary of jack and ice conversation And how the two boards might collaborate together again that directly. I think everyone would agree relates to a work plan It appears the two agendas were listed slightly differently I just looked at the planning board agenda Let's finish those two discussions And see where we are time wise before we spend more time on this because I know we're not going to be here all night as a joint As a joint group And then we can make a decision as a group And entertain any potential motions or not regarding any further discussion at that time Um Andrew your hand is still up. Did you have anything more to add? Okay. Just wanted to make sure so so I that's the decision i'm i'm going to go with right now We will potentially revisit this when we finish the two other items that were on the list to talk about before we get to substantive matters to Forge into dip a toe into how to discuss substantive matters with seven and five twelve members of the two committees And so back to We were going to discuss feedback and thoughts on what rob and chris presented Maria and then dorthy Hey, nanny joe um So Oh, so that last night's zoning subcommittee meeting it just made it really clear to me how Important it is to have planning department staff involved in discussions in real time as um The zoning subcommittee created a few studies and we made our own sort of conclusions like oh, this is interesting And then they stepped right in and said actually You know, I don't want to get into the weeds But you know having that was really enlightening to hear both chris and rob speak up um and inform us Exactly of like why This has that application or um, this has this impact that we didn't consider So I really look to the planning staff to set sort of their time frame and work plan as far as What is appropriate for them to get work done presentable to the various groups? um, you know the zoning subcommittee we do not have the Historical knowledge and zoning. I'll speak for myself zoning bylaw knowledge that um the planning department has So I'd really look to them to set sort of the speed and the series of meetings that we should have moving forward Um, I think that when we started the zoning subcommittee weekly meetings It was back when we misunderstood that by march 15th We should have this and that's changed. So I'm hoping that can relax a little so that we can get more work done So, yeah, I really look forward to um the planning department like I'm over the moon that they're going to help out and so um, yeah, I just want to know more about like Moving forward what next steps might be but um, but yeah, thank you for You know helping out and uh letting the zoning subcommittee help out however we can But that you guys really tell us, you know, where we can fold into all this work moving forward Thank you, maria dorthy Well, I just second what maria said but uh, what I wanted to say was I was so pleased that the Planning department's list Their own list had inclusionary zoning at the top because I believe that the motivation behind this A lot of a lot of the motivation behind the the rezoning is desire to create more And more affordable housing and not just Through the fact that if we create more housing somehow it'll all become more affordable But really a big aim to create housing that can fit a more diverse group of people So I think it's really important to have inclusionary zoning right up there at the top when we consider what we're doing So, thank you. Thank you dorthy um Is there anyone else that has any comments or feedback at this time janet So I'm really excited to see the inclusionary zoning there because I you know, I think um It's so important and I think with some tweaks We can have a great new bylaw in that that is more comprehensive and covers You know any development more with more than 10 units and it will implement one of the um goals of the master plan I I you know just from our You know two or three zoning subcommittee meetings and all the um Maps and all the analysis of what the bylaw means and how it relates to this and that and then you know who owns what property How big things could get um What the effective footnotes are and there's lots of footnotes that you know, especially footnote a is very loose kind of waiver I really do appreciate The planning department bringing more staff on and and the and putting a work plan that has a lot of careful analysis Because you just can't look at something and think oh here here's the easy fix Like it has weird repercussions everywhere and you have to kind of sort through them And I also like the hive mind of you know The zoning subcommittee members everybody on that has something different to bring to the table and different points of view And also it's a good place for the public to be involved So I just I do love this slower work plan because I'd rather be thorough and do a really well good job Because the zoning changes as we know less can last for decades um I have a question for um Robin chris about design guidelines because when I read the master plan It literally like trumpets that increasing density Should be accompanied by strict design guidelines And then it to ensure that the town in 10 or 20 years is still amorous. It still looks like amorous It still has a new england style Um a development pattern that is not sprawling everywhere And then also that we you know protect our historic buildings And so I know that's on the list and it's it always sort of shows up at the bottom of the list But we have money now or we've had money for years Can that can we jump start that so? You know to see you know for downtime planning because I think whatever we want to see downtown Is probably what we want to see in village centers and so Can we do that faster like is there a plan to start putting an RFP out and looking at people and You know I volunteer to help in any way Chris um, we're working with the With the town with the finance committee with the jcpc and With staff here in the planning department to try to work out exactly How much money we need for that design guidelines analysis and um We think we actually need more money than what we had initially And the money that we had initially is Unfortunately old money and it's not old money in the good way. It's old money in the bad way. So that money may We may need to ask for some new money to do this. So Stay stay tuned But we're working on it Yeah My question I'll try to it's like these different thoughts in my head. I'll try to be as clear as possible I'm just wondering how previous um feedback that we've received from the community like they were for example to Downtown planning community engagement and there's like lots of data there and uh In bank center and one was I think the library And so how is that information going to be incorporated into Planning what's happening in the changes in zoning? and secondly You know since our goal is to have more affordable housing to have more workforce housing diversity of people living in our community What what are we doing to ensure? That is indeed going to happen in the sense that Have like I'm just thinking that We're assuming that if we build more affordable housing then we will have more people of color living here or we will have more Work, you know more people working here teachers and so forth living here Where is in my mind? I'm wondering if it would make sense to do a survey that would be sent out to teachers firefighters police different workforce and try to get a sense of What kind of housing would they like would it be independent? I like the idea of starter homes like would they prefer that or would they prefer to be in condos or would they prefer to be in you know, are we building the right kind of housing that? people would want because I did read about one study where They built like a special builder was invited to build workforce housing for teachers And none of the teachers moved in because that's not what they wanted And so it ended up being rented to you know marketplace whatever So i'm just hoping that we can do some sort of community Either it's already been done and if not we could while you are working on Some of the details we could set out surveys to work for us two people of color UMass Hampshire college PhD students who could be recruited to stay back and what would be inviting for them to stay back Chris or Rob, do you have any thoughts on that before I recognize Doug? I have a thought about the The community forums that were held a few years ago. I think we've We've all I And I think I speak for other planners have internalized that And I think the planning board has internalized what we heard at those meetings If someone wants to have you know things written out in list form about exactly what we heard You know we can probably do that But I think you know we heard what people had to say There were differences of opinion Not everybody agreed and we tried to listen to what everybody Said and so what we're trying to accommodate or accomplish is you know trying to be as as As knowledgeable of all of those different Opinions but put something together that we can actually move forward with So That's that's the answer to the community forums I think we've internalized that that information and we can put it in writing if if people want that The other part about surveys Perhaps that's something that CRC would like to accomplish in its outreach, but I don't know if the planning department is Equipped to do that at this time Thank you chris. Um dug then dorthy Yeah, I just wanted to say in response to the question about the timing of Uh design guidelines that I would not support Commencing a design guideline Process until we've had more conversation about what we actually want Because those got design guidelines typically are a way of depicting what you already want Thank you. Doug um dorthy One way to approach this is and this has been mentioned by people in at the many meetings Is to take a look at a successful neighborhood and see what it is what's there And a successful neighborhood to me Is one where people interact mix and have a sense of community and seem happy to be there So I did some writing around and you know on the ground research today Two of the key neighborhoods that have been talked about. Um, I did um Lincoln and sunset and prospect and I did uh cottage street and What I saw was there was a difference in lot size in various places But there were some things that were in common between the neighborhoods That wasn't dependent on lot size That there was private space in the back not necessarily huge But some private outdoor space and then there was public outward looking space They almost all had front porches So in fact, you could do a calendar of uh front porches of amherst and it would be a really good fundraiser because There are a lot of wonderful quirky front porches all over the place. So, um, a good community is one where people Feel they can have some time outdoors by themselves and where they can interact in a very low key way Just by sitting on your porch watching people go by or you know working in your front yard and talking to people go by in the sidewalk and um This was true for smaller houses on smaller lots and bigger houses and bigger lots so, um, I think Looking at saying what what works. I mean, several people have mentioned this and we could do some more research of our own um What seems to make a neighborhood one where people work together and come together on an organized fashion and you know have neighborhood regular neighborhood meetings Have neighborhood listservs Uh people know each other by name. Um that kind of thing and That is I think that the aspect of amherst that is most desirable. So, um I think that I think I do like shallownay survey idea very very much We make assumptions And sometimes, you know We don't know and if we want a more varied neighborhood more people and varied incomes We have to really find out. Well, would they would they come if we made it if we build it would they come, you know So that that's my suggestion that we also look at what's here We know that many neighborhoods and amherst are really great and people like them. So how can we develop them add some infill? Increase density in ways that don't sacrifice those good qualities. I think that's kind of the challenge that we face here and When I was thinking about the work plan, um I was trying to um and I I know that this is going to be a longer process, but Does this does For this is like a crc question You're going to be doing like a community impact review and trying to figure out the impacts on different members of the community and Listen, did you have a policy of doing a community impact review? And so I thought you were taking a deeper look at the effects of different zoning changes And I also wondered like what's the timing of that? What would that look like? And then also Are you going to be doing the community outreach to to or is that? You know how to get the community involved and I know christine brestrup is saying the planning department is going to put You know the live You know the zoning priorities onto the website and so all these you know Documents that we're generating and ideas and whatever is going to be live and people can comment on that So i'm trying to see how that's all going to go like The crc has a community impact review. We're supposed to be doing a robust public process. Is that the planning board's job? You know what what's that going to look like? And how does it time to how does that have those two things tying with the work plan? So so that was actually going to be one of my questions I haven't spoken yet. So i'm going to take my chairs presiding officer's privilege right now to ask a few questions But also try to respond to to some of those questions, too CRC as Was mentioned is actively working on an outreach plan for the comprehensive housing policy The goal is to potentially use that as a model for outreach regarding zoning um amendments Of that outreach plan would include Um, you know, we haven't made any decisions yet, but part of the thinking of With the housing outreach plan is community at least one community conversation regarding The housing policy where it's an actual conversation with people who show up at a meeting instead of one way public comment It is possible that that might be similar to how outreach regarding zoning bylaws work Much of that outreach is hard to do before you have something in front of you to talk about We saw that at a council meeting when there were just zoning priorities, but no concrete proposals It's hard to really delve into the discussion And so I think the thinking right now at least from the chair's point of view is that much of that outreach Beyond the public comments that are available at all meetings the public hearing that will Happen after a formal presentation and proposal to town council on a bylaw Will will occur sort of after the CRC and the council have some initial discussions on The visions and stuff some of what I was envisioning might happen today between our two bodies Um, that that'll happen at a council meeting. That'll happen potentially at us. That'll happen obviously at a CRC meeting There is thinking of using potentially using for zoning these zoning proposals Blanking on the name not the work sessions for councils in our rules, but the um the The public dialogue sessions. Thank you, Shalini The public dialogue sessions for prior to council meetings for public to get involved in conversations So it's a what I would say is it's a work plan in progress even with the community outreach That will hopefully as we see where chris and rob are on timing will be able to be fleshed out with specific meeting times and all We did just change our membership At february night's meeting CRC will be talking about meeting times too With a potential to maybe move them To a time that more people can attend because that is certainly in our thing. So so that's a response to that I I actually in that Wanted to ask chris and rob as they come up with their work plan if they can think about Because I don't know how specific the work plan will be in terms of timing and when things go to council and when things come to crc As that comes to think about potentially needing some extended time between Initial proposals and where you guys were talking about, you know, where that discussion and nitty gritty sort of discussion of feedback goes potentially needing some extended time to do that community outreach at that time um to just consider that as as you're thinking about timing with with work plan, um And then the one other thing I wanted to mention that doesn't really relate to work plan But I wanted to put out there because I know we have a number of attendees And I will mention it again at the crc meeting is In mid january governor baker signed the housing choice bill That related to a whole bunch of housing initiatives One of which was amending mgl chapter 40a section 5 section 5 is the section that deals with voting quantums to pass zoning amendments at the town council or city council Vote um and those quantums for specific types of Bylaw changes Have changed from two-thirds required at the town council to simple majority required So from nine votes in our form of government to seven votes some of the priorities and some of these revisions that we might be looking at might fall under that category We do not know now obviously which may or which may not and so as these these revisions and discussions take place that will be be determined and will be made known by town attorney To determine which way which number will be required whether it'll be simple majority or Two-thirds, but I wanted to put that out there while we have public attending and a lot of interest to know that that typical requirement for two-thirds for all zoning changes as of mid january under state law has changed for A small subset of zoning changes some of which may fall under What we are working on now um So so mendee joe so you don't feel like these Zoning priorities are specific proposals like that will come later and that will sort of trigger a public process And then how does the community impact review go get into your Thank you for reminding me about the community impact review. There's a lot you don't like to say so I didn't want to So yes, the crc has adopted a community impact review or well community impact process or community Review process. It's not just an impact review. It is a process for dealing with measures that come to crc Um, and so those when measures come crc has sometimes struggled with what are we supposed to do with this referral from town council? And what does council want back? So we've adopted a process that allows us to figure out what exactly the council is asking us to do And then how to go about um doing that, you know, sometimes it's something That might not need an impact or benefit or pro and con type analysis or thinking it might need more of a can this be applied You know more of a goal analysis and so so that that process involves figuring out which of those analyses or questioning and and considerations is appropriate and then for when um an impacts and benefits analysis is appropriate For doing that in a way that this document guides the crc to ask questions Because we realized if we didn't have anything written down, we would miss categories of questions And and it has helped us in the past to just review the categories and say hey Did we talk about transportation issues regarding x y or z bylaw amendment that we were referred to? and did we talk about um You know climate and sustainability measures and questions. Do we have let's take a minute and say Are there any questions that relate to that or are there any effects we can think of and what might they be? and and so it's it's more of a guide to Reviewing the proposal in front of the crc than an actual document necessarily that is produced at the end of that beyond the crc report and that will Happen throughout the discussion. I believe at crc meaning CRC members need to take that that sort of document and use it to guide how they're going to approach asking questions and reviewing The measures both before and after a final measure is Proposed at the council. So so it was adopted for something that has been referred to the crc from the council Obviously, we are starting these conversations before that formal referral um, and so so it is likely that document will in you know, will reflect Questions will reflect that documents um categories I hope that helps a little bit of an understanding of how crc will go about looking at zoning bylaw revisions both Before there are specific proposals and after and you mentioned a question about specific proposals. Yes These zoning priorities had some specific proposals in them But crc recognizes that crc is not the expert to determine whether that is the actual right proposal or revision for accomplishing the main goal of Making that a priority and that's what We are relying on chris and rob and the planning department And and the building commissioner to bring to us is They could very well say hey you recommended eliminating footnote m We think that's the absolute wrong thing to do to accomplish the goal you want And that's where we'll start the discussion And so it's not necessarily that these are the set in stone what the revisions are going to come So I hope that clarifies that that was something that was Discussed a lot at the town council level before these zoning priorities were adopted so you know I shalini Yeah, and I'm just these are my thoughts and we haven't yet clarified and we haven't yet just finalized them but I'm also imagining that that um While we're also gathering feedback on the measures that that's part of They're like we like manager mentioned the The dialogue sessions will be kind of more like consult and like having very specific stakeholders identified And using existing groups to reach out to different stakeholders Whether it's renters or whether it's like I was mentioning and so some of the Work we're doing is once there are specific measures But I'm imagining that there are going to be questions about people's lived experiences quality of life So not speaking to specifically The measures or the changes the zoning changes, but I'm also imagining that we're going to create a process like the surveys or forum that dialogue sessions is some combination of things where we're also understanding what are peoples And that's not going to be the planning departments or don't worry. That's not on you. I mean, I'm hoping that's crc with some combination is going to be able to um, gather that information as well about people's lived experiences and not just about specific Zoning by law changes and that will be incorporated and will be useful and helpful in making sure that what we are creating is meeting people's needs Thank you. Um, chris and rob. Have you received enough feedback to help you continue on in in Coming up with a work plan. Are there any specific questions you have that you'd like to hear Thoughts from crc or the planning board on as you work towards a more complete work plan Uh, I think that's good. I don't have any specific questions, but do recognize that we will I think maybe at the ninth meeting really try to Come better understand that extended time frame that we need to build in so we are we are aware of that and have that in mind, but um expecting that we'll adjust that and Finalize that in our next discussions But thank you. Thank you rob chris. I don't really have any other questions or Comments to make at this time. I'm looking forward to our meeting on tuesday any further comments Questions feedback for rob and chris from planning board or crc members. I know crc gets another crack at this on the ninth So janet Um, I'm just In the planning board, we usually have a tradition of after we discuss or get information Um going to the public and I see there's a hand up in our attendees And so before we you know make a decision or go on so I just wanted to point that out Thank you janet. Um, I was going to before I Hold on. Um, I recognize there is a hand it happens to be I think if if it's still from the last time I looked Yes, it's it's from from a fellow counselor. Um Planning board already had its public comment time crc did not Because of the special meeting include public comment time as presiding officer during this joint meeting I will take that into consideration, but I would like us to get through the update on collaboration before That hand is recognized because those are very closely coordinated, um At that time, but I do after those two and before we move on to whether we have time to get into a more substantive discussion Do intend to recognize and potentially allow more comment period I'll I'll I'll refer to also the planning board chair on that too But but I am aware of that and and we'll we'll fit some of that in In the in another appropriate time, but thank you janet So without any more comments from crc or planning board members We're going to move on to item number two sort of in this work plan discussion We kind of separated them, which is an update on thoughts regarding collaboration Um on the zoning discussion So so as you saw there's a work plan with a whole lot of meetings of three separate bodies and jack Myself and actually maria chow who's chair of the zoning subcommittee Had a nice discussion to talk about how we could collaborate this joint meeting is one of the First of that collaboration, but one of our as as chairs of these three bodies Some of our primary concerns is not um Is allowing the planning department and the building commissioner and all to get their work done without having to attend too Many meetings to talk about the same thing over and over again um with different bodies because the If they have to in one week attend three two-hour meetings or one and a half hour meetings of zoning subcommittee planning board and crc all talking about The exact same by-law amendment for example um, that's that's Four plus hours that they could be working on those by-law amendments instead of talking about them with With community and with the committee members. So we are hoping to Somehow have more joint meetings and you know This is something that crc will need to discuss in terms of timing not proposed for tonight to discuss that That's why there is calendar meetings on the ninth for discussion as to when we can time stuff but we I particularly want to hear the thoughts of the planning board members and the crc members about How we can do joint meetings more frequently potentially how frequent that could be whether it fits into schedules of planning board Um and zoning subcommittee in hopes that you know, we heard some public comments already about we don't know where to go When these are being discussed That that hopefully the public also has an idea of which meetings they need to attend a little more clearly For that. So so where jack eye and maria. We're leaning. I think we're to try and figure out At a crc meeting which of the zoning subcommittee or planning board meeting times Is better for crc and that crc then would Um, in some sense join those meetings instead of asking zoning subcommittee or planning board to come to a crc meeting Whenever crc might have a meeting right now. They are Tuesdays two to four Which we recognize is not always great for community members volunteering their time and having full-time jobs But also for residents to actually attend meetings And so that is in some sense the update and I think we were thinking potentially As frequently as once a month, but this all depends on work plan and the timing of the work plan Um, that we will see out of planning department And the building commissioner a little bit next week about how frequently these combined meetings might happen But we I personally would love to hear what people think about Trying to do joint meetings to have real discussions um with 12 people Whether it might be beneficial to everyone here Um and and thoughts so with that I will recognize jack jack and maria Do you want to add anything before I start recognizing people to that sort of summary? maria's shaking her head jack Uh, no, I I have nothing. I just you know, we're trying to get something that works You know given the town council um, you know initiatives for you know Working out these zoning priorities so we myself Want to be flexible and I hopefully you know the the rest of the planning board will be as well, but And we're also kind of like recognizing The planning department, uh, you know limited resources fantastic resources at that but limited uh in terms of uh You know staff and time so we're just I feel like this came about because of uh you know The schedule that was going to be with with crc meeting on you know every tuesday And and and chris's you know draft schedule. It just wasn't going to work so With that said You know, I feel like we were gonna kind of revisit You know, what was it going to be be able to be accomplished within a reasonable timeframe, but You know would make the town council would You know achieve the town council's goal so um So we're looking at less meetings, but more productive meetings. I guess is you know a general concept so Is that jet your understanding mandy Yes, so I think with that, um, we'll go to the people who raised their hands dorthy Okay I understand what the problem is, but I will say that the Feeling of the meetings are completely different the zoning subcommittee small Very intensive detail Takes a lot of time to figure out what is being said um And I would hate to lose Those detailed meetings to me. They're very essential I understand the problem with the staff the planning staff who are so helpful And I and so I'm not gonna I'm not offering a solution to the problem, but I'm I'm saying that the We we can't lose the level of discussion at the zoning subcommittee and then It carries over it's discussed from slightly different points of view at the planning board even though there's a good deal of overlap I found them all really essential I think the real issue is That the crc Everybody on the crc has to absolutely totally understand what it is. We're talking about And then somehow We have to help other people on the town council Understand it as well. We really don't this this is so important Just so absolutely integral to the success of our town That We have to make sure that we have done the work in the discussion and it's not easy. It's not easy. So I'm just that's my comment that I I find at this moment all three meetings very valuable Thank you, Dorothy Doug Yeah, I was just gonna point out that you won't have 12 people if crc comes to a zoning subcommittee meeting because you'll only have five of us Rather than seven of us from the planning board in attendance at those meetings and I don't know how Uh, let's see. I'm trying to think who the two members of the planning board are who are not on the zoning subcommittee But you know, whether they would feel like they were left out if you came to the zoning subcommittee So I just thought that was a one consideration Um, I'm on the zoning subcommittee and the planning board and so I've blocked out those times and I you know, I'm happy And supportive to have as many of the crc that want to join those conversations Uh, as uh, dorthy mentioned, I think the The tenor and the feel of the zoning subcommittee meeting is much more casual and uh Conversational I guess, um, so I I too would be Sorry to see that wither away. Um And I think it probably will be affected if most of the work that's discussed comes from the planning staff Um, I think uh, you know given the work that we've been doing on the zoning subcommittee Um, I certainly show up at meetings more informed when I've done some work to prepare for the conversation And it'll be easy for me not to do that work if planning staff is showing up with the bulk of the work Thank you Thank you doug maria Hey tandy jim. Um, I agree with doug But I do think that the difference between us bringing the prepared work and the planning department having time to produce More thorough more In-depth work will actually be a more effective meeting. Um, we make a lot of guesses and assumptions Me mean we meaning like the zoning subcommittee. We're mere mortals But then when the planning department, you know comes in with their sort of background and historical knowledge of what's been tried What's failed what's worked? Um, I think their data is going to be much more telling and they just need the time to do it between the meetings So I think it's finding. Um, hopefully robin Chris and the rest of the department can find that fine balance of How much time do we need to get something pretty substantive and informative so that We can all understand it and you know, I feel like every time we presented something dug at the zoning subcommittee It was a lot of data and i'm not sure when picked up on it They probably had to look at their graphs and charts later on their own But I feel like the staff the planning department could really come with um something kind of um paired down and really clear And you know start to list the pros and cons in real ways I feel like we were just sure showing what's possible and what's currently possible But they can actually sort of distill it for us on another level So I just want to make sure we're not meeting so frequently that we can't get that information um So I agree our our meetings have been very just you know very diet much more like dialogue and discussion But at the same time I'd love to have more thorough information to talk about So from the staff so um, I don't know what the frequency of meetings it is but um, Hopefully that's the work plan that's going to figure that out Thank you maria Janet I have a question for christine Did you do you because we I thought we've done at the last couple of zoning subcommittee meetings There's been some great analysis and charts of Um, you know different properties who owns them what build that could look like a lot of sketches and You know analysis I'm wondering if christine did you find that useful or would you rather had the planning department bring that to the planning board and the zoning subcommittee? Just hear our questions and put those charts together It seemed like that was great work and I was I was just admiring the depth of Expertise we have in the zoning subcommittee. So that's my first question. I have one other idea Can I answer that? Yes, you may. Yeah, I found that useful. I I will also Be glad when the planning staff has a chance to delve into some of these things and and I think that maria and dug did a terrific job and it happens that they have You know architectural skills and planning skills that they can bring to these things but um, you know the planning staff is really interested and Wants to be involved here. So I think um There may be opportunities for maria and dug to Contribute but I think you know rely on the planning staff probably makes more sense in the end Okay, and then I want to call out andrew's chart his his mapping also Um, the I had this idea and I don't know if it's going to fit in. Um I just thought of this before our meeting is I was wondering if The crc wanted to have like a liaison to the zoning subcommittee because we were getting you know, we're like What darthee's talking about is like really nitty gritty and you know We're talking about different categories and you can have a four plex and a trick plex and what's that versus an apartment and You know that kind of discussion I thought that would be maybe a good person from the crc as a liaison But it sounds like you all want to be more involved. So I'm not sure that idea would quite fit at this moment Maybe in the future so So just to respond to that before I recognize shallony. Um The council is the one that determines who the liaisons are and the council has not designated a liaison to either the planning board Or the zoning subcommittee under its rules Um, but beyond that I do believe given conversations that crc has had In the past and the fact that it took a lead on trying to come up with some priorities that the council wants to see Come to it and the fact that the crc is The council committee that is discussing land use and zoning per council charge Um, that the full council wants to be involved the full crc wants to be involved In more detail with the discussions relating to the priorities that the council Asked the town manager to come back with with zoning changes. Um, so I hope that somewhat answers the question. Um Certainly, I can't speak for every committee member, but that's my understanding given prior discussions at crc and council Shallony you had your hand up, but you unraised it Yeah, I just wanted to hear you out first. I mean I wanted to give you the space to answer first. Um, Yeah, I think this is an incredibly timely and important conversation Glad we're all having this I think what I'm also hearing is that there's a lack of clarity around the different skillsets and roles and the timing of those things In the sense that it sounds like the zoning committee is doing a lot of very in-depth work and has some skillsets Which are very useful, but then I also heard from Uh, the planning department that perhaps those skills would be more useful at a different time and It some of that work needs to happen in the planning department And then what is the role of the crc in all of this? Like we can come to all of the meetings, but What are we contributing? What is our role? And so just having some clarity around who's doing what and What is the timing of those things and how do we share that information? I guess that's kind of what we're doing right now But I just thought I will summarize that's what's going on in my head and And what I'm seeing is this year Is a town counsellor my constantly my Oops Okay, so um, yeah, and I And I'll just venture out and say that I think um is town counsellor is our role an important role is to obviously listen into The community and get feedback and all of that and also the long-term planning as crc members of Some of these issues and so I mean that's that feels like our role and then it'd be interesting to see how we can Clearly identify what are the skill sets and roles of the different people working here? Thank you. Shalini Dorothy Um, I go to the zoning subcommittee not really to influence it I just go because it's helping me to try to understand it so um You know, you go to different places for different things, right? CRC is going to have to be making decisions but You know, I have found this is a very complex topic, but really important and so I've been grappling with doing it and So when we when we go to a meeting it doesn't mean necessarily participating and and guiding it just means attending and listening That's all Thank you, Dorothy. Um, any other thoughts of planning board or crc members regarding this I'm going to start with evan and then go to jack Yeah, so I just just to throw my two cents in I think the idea of trying to increase joint meetings is definitely um, a good thing but also Um, provide having some clarity about When we would be doing this like what are the stages at which a joint meeting would be appropriate? Um, because I I understand the concern for staff time, which I think is important Then I think the other thing that you mentioned that I want to echo is For the public who's trying to follow it as well I think it's really, you know, I'm looking at the attendees list and I'm seeing Quite a few names that I know we're at uh council schreiber in my district meeting On monday talking about zoning and now they're here tonight talking about zoning and they may well be at the CRC meeting on tuesday to talk about zoning Um, and I'm sure they would like to have to attend less meetings to have their input And so finding a way to make clear I think to the public when joint meetings are happening where their input would be um Valuable so people don't feel like they have to be at every zoning subcommittee meeting every planning board meeting and every crc meeting So that they don't miss an opportunity to hear something important I think will be really will be really valuable But then I also do want to sort of echo what I what I think dorthy might have been saying which is that There also needs to be some space for the separate committees themselves to be able to have internal discussions about these And so I you know, I think it's valuable when we have a crc meeting with the five crc members to be able to Have a conversation you can have a little bit of a more thorough conversation Um, and so I'm hoping we can find a way to have those joint meetings While still preserving a little bit of time for the for the individual committees to have their discussions Without having additional meetings, right? um I don't want us to have joint meetings and then separate meetings all the time because I also want to make sure This doesn't increase the meeting load of the counselors or the resident volunteers Who are giving their time for free to the to the planning board in the zoning subcommittee? um and so I trust that the Mandy and jack and maria can can work that out But I think increasing the joint meetings is a good idea But we always I think always making sure there's a reason why we're doing that joint meeting And that reason is clear to us and to the public about why that meeting is a joint meeting And what the objective is of bringing those groups together like we did tonight This was a very clear one I mean we have to have a discussion about how we're going to work together that's sort of the objective But also providing some initial feedback on the work plan Thank you. Evan jack Yeah, I was just going to say that you know five of the Seven planning board members are on the zoning subcommittee. So That's that's quite a few people and and so my thinking was that Is there some process that we can capture from the zoning subcommittee You know Workings that that we can just incorporate within our regular planning board meetings so that we can Have You know consolidate and have fewer meetings Put less stress on the planning Department and just you know just add some efficiencies Through it all so I think that That is something that I think You know came to mind that You know how how can we do this better? um But I you know, I agree. I like that format of the zoning subcommittee And you know, what is it and why can't we bring that into the planning board? and be productive You know since five of the seven already on the zoning subcommittee So and you know our schedule Has been fairly light with regard to projects and and that so it just seems like We can do that, you know for You know the next you know month or or two Which is your time frame for getting some You know knocking out some of the the the priorities Thank you jack maria But yeah exactly that I think that um I am going to try to do my second attempt at dissolving the zoning subcommittee Um, basically the zoning subcommittees are an hour and a half I personally feel so rushed like I try to get into the meat of each topic and make sure we have public comment at the end I feel like if the planning board meetings are light that um, if there's opportunity to put on the agenda working session for this topic that um Like Doug said when we work on things we really understand it a lot better and we're kind of passionate about anyways We tend to like side get sidetracked and show other charts that maybe aren't related but um, I think we could totally set aside an agenda item on Planning board meetings to do that And the way we run it is we have the members present what they found and then just open it up Among the members other members to chime in with like, oh, did you think about this or what do you think about that? And then having chris and rob there to immediately give feedback and say This is impossible because the parking will never work or we've tried that and this is the reason why that didn't work So that kind of discussion would be fantastic to have at the planning board I I think um, especially with all the new planning board members and having a lot of different input and um, and I think we since like you said jack we've already carved out this time slot and it's so much more sort of Liberal, you know, it's what is it three hours long usually so it'll be a much more we can get really much more in depth into each Topic I think I feel like when we were presenting at the zoning subcommittees We just barely got all the data out and people are just you know letting it all sink in and It was a little fast-paced in my opinion. So um, if other members are open to that idea, I'm totally behind having eliminating zoning subcommittee Yet again, this is the thing that's my agenda But um, and then you know having it sort of fold into Like an hour or two for each planning board meeting So yeah, what what do you guys think that they're board members? Doug and then Andrew All right, I uh, you know, I'm fine with what maria was uh posing But what I was going to say was that the the reason I think the zoning subcommittee meetings have been more conversational and and not quite as formal is that The members are all unmuted And the chair does not have to call on you before you speak So it's much more conversational And um, you know, I think if we wanted to take planning board agenda and and Say, okay during this working session, we're just going to all unmute and have a conversation I think that would probably achieve the same Uh flow of thought that we get at the zoning subcommittee Thank you, Doug Andrew I hadn't thought of your point, Doug, but I think it's a very good one And I think you've really captured one of the reasons why that committee works so well the subcommittee works so well Um, I I also agree with maria. I think with with five of seven It seems logical to to collapse this the two ceremonies, but I think of it not so much. I wouldn't present it as like disbanding it but just kind of rolling it up into planning you know, because I think that's Because we're still doing the work right and we're still having the conversations Um, but if we can collapse that I think it's it makes a lot of sense for everybody certainly I think for the the staff to be able to only have to Count them one night instead of the two. I think is it is a huge opportunity and sometimes those conversations might Be useful relative to the topics that we're discussing In the meeting anyway, so I'd be in favor of of collapsing the two thanks at this point I want to Summarize I'm going to summarize and then actually I'll I'll recognize janet before I summarize janet so, um I So I'm concerned about time and so if um You know our planning board meetings usually are about three hours long. They we get kind of epic at four So if we were donating designating an hour and a half of that each meeting to you know a footnote m or a discussion You know because it does take a long time I think that we're going to either Have to meet as a planning board more often like maybe you know three wednesdays a month, which i'm fine with But I think that the idea that we could You know, I don't I don't I think we can't do that level of detail and work And then the regular planning board work because we're like one permit away from a four hour meeting often So if if the planning board is interested in adding I mean, I would love to talk about planning for an hour and a half Oh every other week, but I don't know I think those meetings are going to get long so I wonder if the planning board would be interested in adding a meeting You know to go to go into depth Um or to make sure we have that time. It doesn't get eaten away. Um That's I mean, maybe we could talk that at a planning board meeting But I'm not sure it really addresses the topic so much of how does the crc and the planning board And the zoning subcommittee is if the planning board starts acting like the zoning subcommittee And maybe we we add make our meetings longer add a meeting a month I guess that's less one group for you guys to come and meet with but I'm not sure We kind of us the how do we all work together kind of thing So that's what I was going to summarize what I was hearing. Um, so thank you for bringing that back to us Janet, but also for your comments on on timing um So what I'm hearing um from a variety of individuals is The conversational atmosphere of a zoning subcommittee as it occurs is very helpful um, I will say at crc We sometimes have that conversational it works better with five or six people than it does with 12 or 13 um, and and i'm hearing from From the planning board members and I would assume I hear it from crc members If if they were to chime in that that is very helpful to things like this discussion. Um That's harder with 13. I'm hearing that It might be wise to have the the planning board portion or or that the discussions regard with planning board members To be at the planning board instead of zoning subcommittee But that that might not always work out because of timing and so that would be something I believe that jack and maria would have to discuss more closely to see how that goes um, I'm hearing that CRC with the planning board or zoning subcommittee is a good thing to do But it needs to be thought out carefully in terms of when in the process for each of these um Changes or groupings which we'll see from chris and rob on how they might group things later in the in the week next week and throughout the month That we have to think about when in the process those joint meetings should happen And that they should not be the only time the boards and committees discuss that that Each board and committee needs their own time to have those more conversational meetings too Even if we can figure out a way to have a conversational meeting with 12 members But but that the individual committees because they might be focusing on different levels of analysis or areas of analysis To have that time within their own committees To focus on that would be good. Um, so that's what I've heard through this conversation. I think that might give jack maria myself and the planning department chris and rob some idea on how to create a little bit more efficiency um, while also not overworking chris and rob In terms of demands on their time attending meetings um to do that what what might You know, I think one of the things we need to potentially figure out is also that I heard was Where each committee's um contribution lies what type of contribution they're contributing So that the public knows is crc the one that's delving into The nitty gritty of this particular bylaw and what I always refer to is the nitty gritty of is Is that setback or that frontage going to be 100 feet or 95 feet or 85 feet? um When is that happening versus when is more of a vision happening? Which committees are doing that or is there overlap on those discussions? um, and stuff like that. I think as we delve into this for the first time that may Start to work itself out a little bit particularly potentially as we have joint meetings to see where questions people ask questions and whether they fall into that but we might have to gear that a little bit more and and potentially more specificity on agendas um to help the public understand where the conversation is going on a particular agenda may also be helpful from things I've heard um That's my summary of this discussion If if there are if people think I summarized anything wrong feel free to correct me now Um, or if anyone has anything to add to that summary Um, that would be great. And if not, then we will move on to recognizing the hands that are up I believe with jack before we We talk about something else janet So just thinking about like ways to communicate. Um, when we started the zoning subcommittee started working on the um The priorities I put together a google doc because I was I was trying to think of like what are the questions We people will have About each priority and so I did a summary of a google doc for like moving the bl and to footnote b Put down all the questions I could think of and I thought You know if we had this living document and we had it on the web So everyone can look at it and as we attach diagrams and documents it could be something that people could look at And you know so and and I did one for footnote m also Which I haven't updated after our meeting But I kept on thinking like if we had a live like each each priority had a discussion document We were collecting information and answering questions and attaching maps or um drawings You know that could be visible to the public. It could be visible to the crc It could be visible to the planning board the zoning subcommittee You know the planning department and that it might be just this living thing that we can consolidate the information We have and people post questions, you know public can post questions. Hey, I'm wondering what does bill that look like in the rg You know what happens to this building if there's a waiver and it's it's four stories Not three, you know kind of thing like that And so I just wanted to put that out as a kind of a more modern way to to You know consolidate all our information and ideas or questions together So if just something to think about So thank you for putting that out that idea out there I know I I saw evan immediately react and I know my immediate reaction was ah open meeting law We started this whole meeting with potential open meeting law violations and I know this is an area um that Committees boards and other public bodies struggle with And how does it comply and so I know my hesitancy would be to ensure that something like that complies Before it ever does it and I know there are some potential rulings out there that might say it does And there are potential rulings out there that say it might say it doesn't so So I I don't know how workable that type of decision is. I don't want to shoot it down immediately. Um, but But having a living document that can be modified when there is no meeting called Um, certainly does bring in potential open meeting law concerns Well, that was the question that was the issue the what we were looking at was if this, you know Is it helping open meeting law by saying? Hey, this is what the committee is working on You can see it in living time and ask questions about it Or should it be revised once a week and then there'd be an announcement. So that'd be I mean It seems like it's a question for the town attorney Um Is is what it would be. Um, but thank you for that suggestion any other final comments um See none without objection jack work. I feel like under um Our current circumstances we should offer another public comment period. Um, and then potentially Um call the crc portion of the meeting to a close so that the planning board can finish its agenda Does that sound like a good plan jack? Yeah, but you know, I'm wondering, you know, what have we accomplished tonight? Um In terms of the you know the the schedule And and things like that I I feel like Are we done? Uh Should we be finishing right now? I know it's like two hours in but um Where do we go from here sort of thing so Um So so in terms of planning department work plan that'll come back to crc on the ninth for a way to figure out how to do it Um, that'll have I from what I saw some potential Places for the planning board items for when the planning board might have that discussion or zoning subcommittee I I assume chris and rob will be talking to you and maria Regarding some of that scheduling It'll come to the crc for talking about that scheduling here along with how to fit in the public feedback Um, there will be a progress report at the town council meeting I think not the monday one because crc won't have discussed it So the one on the 22nd if I have my dates right for adding 14 days, um But But so that that's where we are with the work plan It sounds like chris and rob got some valuable feedback from the two bodies regarding thoughts on the work plan and all and then for the three bodies together I heard some valuable things um From both sets of committees regarding that that will require some More close work between the chairs of the three bodies to make sure That when we hold joint meetings That they are clear on what their purpose are and they are held at the correct time But the the committees believe joint meetings would be useful Is what I heard. Um, so it's a matter of working out a little more of the details on how that goes about Um, and not too often is the other thing I heard about joint meetings Um, so, you know and Did I miss do you have one more questions jack? No, I just I guess, you know just having a uh a plan forward was what I think was you know Chris had had you know like weekly Zoning priorities knocked off and that's not going to happen So I was just I'm just wondering about you're are we going to revisit? You know the schedule And just how we're going to to deal with The plan, you know moving forward, you know schedule wise and And I'm not sure we got that resolved tonight, but um If you would you like to address that question Yeah, I think that we rob and I got enough input tonight from you all from the planning board and the CRC that we can you know start to put together a schedule and we'll be in touch with manny joe and maria and Jack about when it would be appropriate to meet and you know, I think that over the next what do we have four days? um Thursday, friday, not saturday sunday, but monday We'll be able to put something together for the crc and members of the planning board who are available could Listen in on that meeting and I think we'll we'll be further down the road than we are than we are right now, but um I think we've gotten some valuable input to help us move forward Yeah, and for For purposes the agenda for crc. Just so people know um is fairly busy but the The planned timing would be for the work plan to Come to discussion Approximately an hour into the meeting. So around three o'clock right now um, so if anyone is interested in the meeting starts at two comprehensive housing policy Discussions will encompass approximately the first hour of the meeting a little bit more um If if people are interested in the zoning work plan discussion, it'll Probably not occur till three o'clock at the earliest um For how the plan is going the Agenda planning is going for that um For those interested Any other further discussion Shalini Um, I would just like to offer to the planning department staff What can we do to support you in doing your work in terms of the planning board in terms of the crc folks What can we do to what would be most useful from us? Coming to you Why don't rob and I think about that in the next few days and we'll get back to you about that But thank you for the offer Thank you and add one other question, which is Probably a stupid question, but it's also because i'm new to This work and also because i've never attended too many planning board meetings But what are the discussions happening in the planning board meetings about Zoning right now that would really help me understand also like what are you all talking about and then What is our overlap and What is the redundancy and what could we each be doing so that it's more complementary and not redundant? I'm going to go to jack and maria. I believe most of that discussion has been happening in zoning subcommittee if i'm Correct, so maria. Do you want to summarize a little bit about what the subcommittee's been discussing? Sure, i'm okay um, uh, let's see we were given from chris the first two items on the crc Uh priority list one and it would we just start with bl Footnote b and i think it's not necessarily we've found out it's not necessarily about removing um I mean putting bl on footnote b, but the goal is more housing in bl And then the other item we've been looking at is um the impacts of uh bringing footnote m I think i reverse it getting rid of footnote m. That's right Um, and we literally is the tip of the iceberg We just got you know a good handle on what is currently allowed and what is sort of all these different sort of in worst-case scenario versus you know maximum build out versus um a few little tweaks So those are the only two items we've touched on and um, we haven't discussed at all with planning board. I think um but uh Just from last night's zoning subcommittee meeting it just showed me how Useful it was to have the planning staff of chris and rob In active discussion with us um It immediately made the discussion take right turns that I would not have thought that it would have gone in so that um Really should be considered moving forward that it's not like committees all talking amongst themselves and then suddenly the planning staff, you know Folds in so I'm not sure how that divides up work, but I I hope this work plan This miracle work plan explains it all Next week objective anything that Uh, no, no, I don't I again, I think I think I I love the the how things kind of get talked like how Doug mentioned that things this The rapport is is really good within that zoning subcommittee And if we can just capture that within our planning board meetings I I don't know why we can't you know spend an hour or two hours And do the same You know from from efficiency standpoint, especially where we don't have a lot of project review Items, you know in front of us at this time so But you know it sounds like chris and rob will come up with some sort of uh Uh proposal and and I guess we go from there Thank you Doug Yeah, I I would also like to add that the predominant conversations in the planning board over the last frankly six months have been about the 40 our proposal And we abruptly tabled that when we received direction from CRC and town council to start to look at these other zoning priorities Thank you for that update Doug um With that we are going to go to a mini public comment session because there has already been public comment. I'm going to ask everyone to Limit their comments to two minutes instead of three Since um, we've already had one public comment session. So Pam, I know I'm going to need your help here. Um, So Shane is first All right. Hi Kathy Hi, um, and I think I can do it in less than two minutes, but I'll try not to speed read I thought this was a great meeting. Um, and I just want to go back to the substance on the work plan and a couple comments One is on the word design And it seems to be Thought of chris when you talked about it's a big consultant project that we have to go out and get something extra Which maybe to redo design everywhere we would but I think if you start to focus on any of the zones So if it's the bl zone you can think about what what's it going to look like and what kind of design features So dorothy's backyard front yard setbacks Um, could be part of that. It doesn't have to be big design. It can be neighborhood design What's the look in the feel of the neighborhood? Um, and I think that's particularly important when you start talking about duplex triplex Quadruplex whatever townhouses and I've seen it in other zoning codes. They just say what do we want these things to look like? You know front yards backyards porches Secondly, um, I can't find the word sidewalk in our zoning code um And one of the things that does make neighborhoods and communities particularly as they get more dense is the ability to walk And walk safely. I know when the sidewalk was put up on pine street up here in north amherst People said they started meeting their neighbors Because they walked on the sidewalk and they would meet their neighbors You couldn't walk on the street because it's really heavily trafficked street So to whatever extent we can on some of these neighborhoods Cottages one of them when I walk there, there are no sidewalks and people walk in the street now If you put a lot more cars in it, we need to think about where people are going to walk So that means think about the setback design Um, I think when you come back to us with this work plan What I'm hoping is you will do will have done interactive work At the staff level so it's not just adopt these but really say what does it look like in a 3d way? I know your staff Chris can do that. Um So these lot sizes that we've seen that zoning subcommittee has been done What does it look if you build that out? And then the last is just a pure question when we talk about supplemental dwelling units There's an a accessory to a little bit Dwelling unit that's in the same law that Mandy talked about and it set a statewide standard for what these are And it's 900 square feet Or 50 of the width of the dwelling unit the lesser of the two. So if you have a small primary Unit say a thousand square feet. It could only be 500 square feet And my impression is that has to be statewide So I don't know whether we come in and do our own versus we say take a look at what the state has done So that's just a comment at the end So think of design in small not just we come wait to the end and do a big design But as we're looking at his own and talking about more housing, what do we want to look like? Don't forget sidewalks and do please do do the interactive Including interactive mixed use and and apartments part of the people reason people are fleeing to mixed use Is because they can't there is no definition of what it is So the two interact with each other. Thank you Thank you. Kathy. Um next up is going to be michael greenbaum Hi michael Michael you're muted. Can you hear me now? Yes, we can. Yes. Thank you very much Uh, I have lots of thoughts about the organizational relationship things you're talking about but they tend to go back to the charters So maybe I'll save them for the time at which you go into your charter review So somebody down the road um my one substantive point is that I have opposed thinking about the chapter 40 are overlay for downtown Because I really have never thought of downtown as a neighborhood. I have thought of downtown as the common inheritance of all of amherst and even surrounding areas and therefore I'm opposed to increased residents downtown although I am very much in favor of thinking of chapter 40 are in terms of village centers So there was a comment earlier this evening about thinking about the village centers and downtown in much the same way And I would be very happy if that were not the case if we could rethink downtown as our common property and think of the commercial establishment which I think has suffered quite a bit recently and entertainment and culture and those things not residents. So that's one point the other point Thinking ahead to the Zoning by-law seems to me a well-written Zoning by-law should not have footnotes Footnotes should be reserved for changes that either are mandated by the state Or that are about subsequently down the line and particularly Footnotes that suggest exemptions to the by-law that they are attached to I would rather have a much I'd rather have a by-law that Includes the flexibility where you want the flexibility in the body of the by-law Seems to me it's it's a very complicated and not a very happy situation when your footnotes Sort of say pay no attention to that man behind the curtain And that's the way I suspect they are often read now and It seems to me it's important to preserve the difference between Site plan review and special permit Although I wish the names were more different so that people would not get confused by them And to have something akin to the relationship between the landing board and the zoning board Remain, I think separation of powers is a very important thing at every level of government I think it's important for amity and for collaboration between these boards But they should have very different purposes And I think the distinction is a very important one for the town Thank you Thank you, michael mora I'm mora mora, can you unmute yourself? I think you have to allow her to talk I thought I had Yeah, I she is able Because the only option I have is disable So Could you ask her to unmute? Yes, one of your options Yes And mora, can you hear me? If you can can you unmute please so mora just unraised her hand Janet is unmuted. Can we mute janet again? Thank you Um, we're gonna go to pam and then we'll see if we can get more working again So pam, I think I just got unmuted, correct? You are You are, everything was going so quick. So pam, you are able to speak It was while you were talking to mora, so I wasn't sure if it was me or mora. I know Um Just a couple comments on sort of the organization and structure of your of your collaboration Um, the first point is when I go to a planning board Meeting I would look at their agenda and there was nothing besides Zoning amendment priorities work plan on the agenda tonight So it it too took me by surprise that you might and maybe not at this hour get and delve into the the uh, footnote b if if in your organization of Um Rolling the zoning subcommittee into the the weekly or or bi-weekly planning board meeting It would seem very appropriate to list it as a joint meeting Of the planning board and zoning subcommittee so that people were aware that there was going to be this working session During that During that meeting I find the The collab it and it has to be a collaboration of town staff and zoning subcommittee because that is in fact where the nitty gritty Gets discussed and you've got to be able to go back and forth and ask questions of each other To probe and understand the ramifications. I totally understand that 99 of the people that are currently on the planning board have actually not dealt with a whole lot of Zoning in the past And it is a learning it is a learning process and I absolutely commend you for getting up to speed By getting in there and dealing with the details that is how you learn To do it and so I appreciate having And seeing that that that growth of understanding because in fact the suggestions for zoning changes And have some pretty significant ramifications and I think the town simply needs to be able to weigh what those impacts are And and approve or disapprove of them Um I think that's that's all I really need to say but um, I do appreciate And I and I would hate to oh the other thing is that the crc to me And I'm going to make sort of a corporate analogy I see the crc as a Set of the town council and it really should be functioning at sort of executive level It's kind of like eisenhower saying I want to you know, I want to capture You know town x and in morocco And the people on the ground sort of help make that happen I don't really feel like crc ought to be weighing in on every single zoning subcommittee meeting Unless you're there as sort of a bystander as we are in the in the town Your role is to kind of set a direction and These the staff people the zoning subcommittee the planning board are all out there working to try to help formulate stuff, but it I would find trying to attend a meeting with 12 people. I found it very frustrating tonight To to attend a meeting with 12 people and not get a word in edge wise Um, but that's maybe just my personality. Anyway smaller is better and um, if if the zoning subcommittee Can get rolled up officially into the planning board conversation that would be better than losing it all together Because I think it plays a key role in in helping formulate the discussion. Thanks Thank you. Pam. Um Pam can we figure out a way? field sadler can we figure out a way to Get mora in We now have a new option for mora, which is allowed to talk. So we're gonna try Hi mora I got it now. We got it Hey We can hear you mora I wanted to say that I have a lot of reservations about Letting the planning staff do what the zoning subcommittee is doing not that they couldn't do As good a job or it may be even better But it's done behind closed doors And it was it would be much nicer in the zoning subcommittee people are given an assignment They do the assignment. They present it and then Chris or this last meeting Rob was there too Brought up some other points about it and it was I think it was better for everybody And I don't I think if the planning staff just works on things and then presents it at the end We don't get that give and take And I really worry about bringing the zoning subcommittee into the planning board meeting Because even without a lot of projects The planning board meeting still seems to take two or three hours And I don't think we'd get to those topics And in in as much of depth as it is at the zoning subcommittee So sorry mora. I don't agree with you and I think a meeting this size is really pretty unproductive to actually getting detailed works Work done It's okay for discussing the broad topics but not for looking at the details Thank you for that mora um with that Um Oh, we got two more. Please keep your comments to two minutes And then we're going to close this up with the end of these two more ira Hi ira Hi, how are you? I just want to appreciate everyone who is now Putting an accent on hearing from the public what we want as a town and what we are concerned with might be the repercussions of Just removing this footnote, you know, it seems like such an innocent thing to do um, etc And also I just want to weigh in on keeping the zoning and planning separate Just to repeat what michael reenbaum said separation of powers But also there's just obvious different styles that the discussions are having just based on what you're saying And I think just mixing them into one big bowl Is going to just kill everything that you are saying is what helps you think these things through Um, so thanks so much Thank you ira held up I held up Hi, I just wanted to add that I was really pleased with the zoning subcommittee last week I thought a lot was accomplished and a lot was discussed in in real date and I would hate to see It lost The one thing that I wanted to say that in 40 years of observing Planning and zoning board meetings first for the league of women voters and now for the indy for the first time In 40 years. I have seen the planning board Actually doing some planning and I want to commend them for that and I don't want to lose that a long by Mixing it with a with a regular planning board meeting where they're dealing with other issues I really Want to commend you folks for finally doing some planning which the planning board is supposed to do And please don't lose it Thank you hilda With that I believe Jack I see one hand on our side jack. I'm about ready to I think There's nothing else. I'm Ready to adjourn, but I'm not going to declare crc adjourned yet jack Okay, so I with with that said I was wondering if we could do like a straw poll amongst the planning board Because we have this, you know, we have these goals presented to us from town council um, we have You know a fairly tight schedule It seems like for february march and I was just wondering if we do a straw poll for chris and and Rob's information because they're going to recommend to us What they think should happen, but if we met weekly On wednesdays You know versus by by weekly and I'm wondering, you know, how that would Work with everyone's schedule. I think it's good for me, uh in general, but that would facilitate. I think um You know combination of the the zoning subcommittee items within the planning board So i'm just throwing that out there and uh, is that you know, is that a fair thing to So so before I adjourn because once I adjourn, I think that ends the item for all of us Because it was a joint meeting so I will not adjourn yet. Um with that request from the planning board chair Um, I would suggest if that straw poll is taken and I'm happy to call on each planning board member at the request of the chair to do that um that The suggestion from given the conversation I've heard is that not every meet week have Maybe one week devoted to The non zoning discussions and another week Devoted to zoning discussions because that would give chris and rob more time to potentially. Um, if that's a consideration Yeah, I would put that out as a potential Option as you're thinking about this and for members to think about Johanna before I do a straw poll if people are willing. Johanna. Thanks for the time. Um My question is are you thinking every wednesday ad infinitum or every wednesday for like February and march while we work through the zoning bylaw and then we would go back to bi weekly That's my understanding it is like because I I I know that town council is wanting to get some resolution on the top priorities there so I It's a temporary thing that we would you know meet weekly now. I'm just wondering if planning board members If that's an option and and then certainly that would that would You know incorporate the the zoning subcommittee and You know You know being on it would eliminate the zoning subcommittee, but incorporate it within regular planning board meetings Because we're meeting more frequently Uh, it just seems like there's some urgency that that we resolve some zoning priorities. So, um I just wanted to throw that out there Tom And it would only be to you know like like February march And Just a straw poll And I don't know if chris do you think that is something that That Would You would entertain or is that crazy? Can I speak mandy? Yes um From my standpoint meeting every week with the planning board would be um I could do that as long as we don't also have zoning subcommittee meetings So if that's the decision you're making, um, I think we could make that work Tom Sure, I was going to agree. Um, and I think that meeting every week, you know, right now We'd be meeting every week as the zoning subcommittee. I think if we were able to commit that time And we could actually carve that time out of every, um Planning board meeting I think it would be useful and productive to have the other two members participating in those meetings as well. So I'm all for consolidating those two into um Just the planning board meetings but doing it weekly and making sure we carve out the time to do the work we need to do I believe there is andrew maria Doug and janet that haven't commented yet on jack's thoughts Andrew Uh, I I'm fine with it as well. I think like right now we're meeting the subcommittees meeting Every week and the planning boards meeting every other week. So we would be taking a meeting out of the schedule um In terms of like the the night commitment, so I'm in favor of that I think relates to me sort of the the advantages are we get the other two planning board members in And then I think as long as we've got um support from christen and company I would I would certainly advocate for that Thank you, Doug Yeah, I'm I'm I'm fine with that in general I happen to have a half hour obligation next wednesday evening, but I could I may be able to move that and uh, otherwise I'd just duck out for 30 minutes But beyond that I'm pretty available Thank you maria Um, I think I'm available. I just want to make sure if uh, if every other planning board meeting is the zoning subcommitting meeting Is that what you're proposing so that every first and third wednesday is a planning board meeting with no zoning Stuff and then the second and fourth Are the zoning subcommittee meetings and that way? chris and rob can Uh have time I guess I I would like to see their work plan first. I guess before we commit to anything in case you know, they need more time than Every two weeks to help with the research. So but otherwise I I think I can swing that I just Want to not commit to it until we know the work plan So I think jack's Purpose of jack. I won't put origin in your mouth jack Yeah, I mean I I just want to throw it out there for chris and rob as an option And it looks like we're kind of good with meeting weekly and whether it's You know, whether the focus each week is is on our normal, you know project review versus um, you know zoning, uh You know bylaw topics is to be determined, but I feel like we all want to get something done Um given the town councils You know You know interests, you know during the the next two months and sounds like we can do it so um Sounds like that, you know, it looks like there's some efficiencies here um but I I defer to chris and rob are gonna tell us what they want to do and then and then we'll See what can happen, you know after that but I think did we hear from everybody? The only one we didn't from planning board is janet and dug. I think raised his hand again Yeah Janet if you've got anything and then dug So I could meet um every wednesday um and So I'm not sure my preference would be You know an hour and a half like maybe the first hour and a half on zoning issues and then regular meeting or what? but I do think it's important that um We make it really consistent and signal to the public what we're doing um And so maybe we should just list that as a joint Planning board zoning subcommittee for that hour and a half to kind of force us into that structure Um, so I'm fine with meeting weekly on that and I I you know would like to work In a way that would really help the planning department work on stuff And I think that back and forth will be good for us I would like not to vote to kill the zoning subcommittee because it's not on the agenda And also it seems like it's been this very effective mechanism in way and in a funny way We're trying to get the vibe of the zoning subcommittee on the planning board So I say let's keep the zoning subcommittee on the back burner. See if the vibe can be extended This might become too much in the meetings might become four hours And we all know that last hour a lot of us don't really function And stuff like that. So I'm fine with meeting weekly I feel like we have to be clear about you know to the public and to ourselves what what our schedule is and what we're working on Doug I'm one of the brief thought which was uh the zoning subcommittee typically takes its own minutes And the planning board has had ham and chris doing the minutes So going to weekly might uh increase the staff obligations on minutes in a way that I just hope chris will and ham will think about while they're putting together the work plan Yeah Thank you for that. Um I I would just from crc's point of view I would just add to chris and rob a suggestion of as you're putting together a work plan and thinking about what meetings might be discussed at what um given conversation today think about when joint meetings between crc and Some subset or full planning board meetings would be most appropriate from your thinking a point of view in terms of discussion and all to maybe Have a proposal from that point of view too For us to jump off with when we talk about it on tuesday Because we would value your input on when you think A joint meeting would be most helpful to the planning department Any final words on zoning priorities? Seeing none. I want to say thank you to the planning board for hosting us And for taking two and a half hours out of your meeting to host us and have this very valuable conversation And I also want to say thank you On behalf of the full town council, I guess um for jumping right in To talk about the zoning priorities that the town council has asked the town manager to do and thank you to the planning department and to Chris and rob in particular But I know it's not just you two that are going to be dealing with this It's your entire departments and all the staff at the department that don't show up at the meeting too that are dealing with it to to help us Figure something out with related to zoning and to everyone The rest of the CRC agenda is items not anticipated. We don't have any And with that, I just want to say I think CRC is looking forward to working with everyone To discuss zoning and planning In this town as we move forward over the next year. So thank you and with that I'm going to adjourn the CRC portion of the meeting at 9 11 p.m Thank you everyone. Thank you Pam Welcome. Good night everyone Good night All right, so uh, we can move to um old business and we're The next topic is a zoning Bylaw site line review review criteria and design guidelines section 11.2417 regarding minimizing intrusion of lighting view and discussion. So I will certainly you know, uh I hand that over to to janet and let her Thank you It seems like we always have this later. We always try to get this early. It's the later, but I do Very quickly um, so anyway section 11.2417 was um part of the emily dickinson permit hearing and On that the the lighting was upcast on the buildings down downcast on the light The lights in the buildings were on till 10 and then I think the path went off at you know In the last soul left and so during that discussion members raised two Two issues about the bylaw section Does all lighting need to be downcast except for um lit signs And do all lights need to be turned off after business hours except for safety or security lights and um when I looked at the um The text of the section it said the goal of Goal was to minimize intrusion of lighting and protect adjacent properties And so you know, I'm not going to go to the whole thing But so I looked at the legislative history and a shout out to hilda greenbaum who basically Tell me exactly the year to look at um, and from leading the legislative history It was very clear to me that all the lighting had to be downcast and turned off after business hours Except for the safety lights and the lit lights um And that was those two sentences were added in 2007 in fall town meeting um It was a unanimous vote which almost I can't that doesn't happen that often in town meeting but did when I was there um and so The planning board member who presented it to town meeting um said the changes were In this for both special permit and site plan review criteria And it this is intended to protect residential properties from light intrusion from commercial properties So it directs that all exterior lighting be shielded and downcast As to prevent glare that interferes either with motorists of residential properties nearby Or motorists or residential properties nearby And it requires that lights be extinguished outside of normal business hours Um, except for safety and security. He said several times that the changes applied to all districts And applied to every zoning district for every use in town um, and he described it as changes to criteria not to guidelines and so, um I read that as saying there's not exceptions and there's no exceptions in the by-law or there's no of the magical footnotes um, and so This these two sentences were added by unanimous vote of the select board the planning board um, the finance committee and the former commercial relations committee and there was no discussion before the vote so To me that was the legislative history is pretty much okif And so, you know, so, you know So that's the legislative history. And so I began to ponder this. I was like, what's the difference between downcast and upcast lighting You know, and I since I bird I was thinking about if you were a bird would that matter to you? And so I did some research on that and it turns out that upcast lighting is particularly bad for birds But it also is bad for mammals insects reptiles and even plants and that also includes night lighting in general Um, it's worse in the spring somewhere in fall because obviously there's more insects and animals around and in green plants It affects their, you know, the migration of birds navigation The ability of animals to see the timing of plants like their their internal timing can get um Kind of thrown off by night lights They can bloom at different times the trees would might shed their leaves earlier late And then animals, you know, maybe, you know, a little mouse going out at night might be eaten by a coyote because it's easily seen And then it also disorients turtles I mean, so anyway, so night lighting is not great and I began to Realize how much I admire now how dark amherst is when I moved here I thought my god, this is the darkest place I've ever lived And so now I see the benefit of that Um, another thing is if you have night lights and lights at night That's a use of energy that you don't need and so You know, I just wanted to present this to the board because to me the section of You know the meaning of section 11 point two one two four one seven is clear That all lighting must be downcast except for architectural signs And turned off when they're not needing except for safety And um, this fits with the dark sky standards Of the international dark sky association and I summarize that is You know, put your lights on only when you need them only the area that has to be lit No brighter than necessary. Um It's something like blue lighting was preferred low level Oh minimize blue light emissions and use warmer colors and also shield Have them downcast and fully sheared shielded And so I just wanted to present that because I don't know if we're ever going to run into this again I know we have some buildings in town that have upcast lighting Um, and probably if we talked to them, they'd be like, oh, we can change that And I thought you can just put your lighting downcast on your building Or on a tree or on a post or something like that. So that I think it's Not a hard change to make or um an adjustment to make So that that was my presentation if anyone has questions or reactions or Okay, um Let me get my uh That chris breast rip has her hand raised. Yes chris Um, I wanted to mention something that we did talk about at the public hearing and and it is the fact that Family Dickinson museum is a nonprofit educational institution And it's protected under section three of chapter 40a um The specific section that I wanted to read to you says No zoning ordinance or bylaw shall regulate or restrict the interior area of a single family residential building Nor shall any such uh ordinance or bylaw prohibit Regulate or restrict the use of land or structures for religious purposes or for educational purposes on land owned Or leased by the commonwealth or any of its agencies subdivisions or bodies politic or by a religious sector denomination Or by a nonprofit educational corporation Provided however that such land or structures may be subject to reasonable regulations Concerning the bulk and height of structures and determining yard sizes lot area setbacks Open space parking and building coverage requirements. So in other words the planning board has discretion as to how much of the um Requirements in our bylaw that we would impose upon a nonprofit educational institution And I think you did discuss this and you discussed it very carefully and I remember um going through the Minutes of both meetings on october 21st and november 4th and these issues were brought up and it was um noted that Emily Dickinson museum is uh A special place in town and it is a nonprofit educational institution I think maria or somebody mentioned that it's a landmark. So I think this is a different kind of situation from If you know somebody had a commercial building and they wanted to light it in a similar manner You might treat that differently, but I think the way you treated the emily dickinson museum was within your uh area of discretion Particularly because of section three of chapter 48. Thank you So I don't I don't want to revisit the old decision. I just wanted to present this information because I'm not sure um You know I part of it's just my I was just rooting about animals and I just thought how does it affect this and I I actually have become obsessed with downcast lighting and in most of you know, you know, I have downcast lighting on my My house and so I think it would just be good to people to know and to understand The impact and things like that. So Also, the poem was pretty I mean, I just had a good chance to read some poetry any other comments See none um So jenna, I know you put a lot of time into this um, if you want to you know kind of restate anything um, I know that we all Personally, I did not see Did not see the demonstration and we can talk about the emily dickinson project now correct chris because it's been Filed with the town clerk so But in this case You know, we're the planning board and I just felt like We had they they had a demonstration and It seemed like You know the the knowledgeable Folks, you know with on the within the board here I thought comfortable with what Was, you know demonstrated during that lighting period and but you know, I appreciate your You're you're you know delving into this this particular subject and I I think that we can take that Yeah, and and and and you know improve So Yes so But this particular project I think was vetted, you know heavily by our our, you know planning board members and I appreciate the demonstration that the emily dickinson museum You know put up and it seemed like okay. Well, we can do this, but I guess there's downcast and then There's some sort of variable where Not upcast, but you know, it seemed like the light was captured Uh by the building Did not escape the property And that's that's why the board, you know You know approved it, but in general We definitely want to Be, you know wary of This, you know lighting, you know by law and and understand what you know your concerns are so Any other comments from the board, okay So, all right. Oh my gosh, this this draft Going on the next item Be draft housing policy May I say something about that? Yes So the crc I don't think they've really completed their work on this. They're looking for planning department Input sooner than Later, but I don't think they're looking for Uh planning board input necessarily until april That's right. That that that was my understanding and that's why we haven't Really kind of, you know Dived into it, but um It's something that we definitely want to pay some attention to And you know provide our our comments on so um Is this uh, we're um, oh my gosh, I'm trying to remember now um Mr. Marshall has his hand raised too Yes, Doug Yeah, I have a you know, okay. So the end of april is the deadline Is it your uh, is it your preference that each individual planning board member submit individual comments or that we You are going to put this on the agenda of some of our meetings and we're going to have general conversation Which uh ham or chris will summarize in minutes That's yeah, so i'm done. Uh, like I'm Trying to get my uh My focus here, but yes, we I think we all agreed that we were going to review this policy and that the and then I thought that we would be able to provide that during a future meeting and That you know chris and pam Would collectively provide our comments within one document And provide that to crc versus us individually providing comments you know as citizens to To the town council So does that does that sound reasonable for us that you would You would kind of combine Our comments, but it wouldn't be like a single sort of vision From the planning board, but it would be individual comments from the planning board members That you would provide Uh after we have sufficient discussion I think we need to have some discussion. I would like you to have some discussion You don't have to take a vote, but you know, you'll come with your Point of view and present your point of view to your fellow board members and then pam and I will Try to summarize what you've said and pass that along to the crc Yeah, that's that would be my preference and we would like vote You know you would have some document and we would just like the minutes we would Comment on what you what you have, you know Uh discerned from our From our discussions um But yeah, so I I don't I don't expect us to have a singular sort of uh Planning board recommendation and from what I understood from our previous discussions that We will have individual comments But it would be provided from the planning board with you know, so Say, you know andrew Andrew's concerns or this or that and then and then yohanna would You know, I just kind of so there'd be some some document that These are planning board Comments, you know, but it would be member specific, you know specific versus us trying to coalesce You know Make sense to me. Okay. All right Janet you have your hand up um Even myself so I I think that's actually a very efficient way So we get a chance to talk to amongst each other and you don't have to come up with a synthesized statement Would it be okay if I just wrote some more detailed comments separately? I don't want to under I might dig into it with the more depth than people anyone wants to know about But for maybe another person like another attorney like many joe So I I don't want to undermine the general thing. So is that do you think that's okay? I think I think we would could just include it as an appendix or Yeah That's good. So um Topics not reasonably anticipated 48 hours prior to the meeting No topics okay new business We have none listed um any Not anticipated. Nope. Nope. Okay. Um, can chris. Can I interrupt you there? There was that bill Did you want to talk about that? The house bill um that we got from kp law Yes, we could do that. I think maybe janet suggested that we do that, didn't she? um, so we did get a summary of the house bill 52 50 From kp law and I sent it on to you all um And essentially what it does is along with a lot of things about The budget it provides For certain types of zoning amendments to be adopted certain types of zoning amendments having to do with housing in particular to be adopted by A majority vote of the legislative body Rather than a two-thirds vote so that would mean a town meeting could adopt certain things having to do with housing by a Major did I say yeah town council by a majority vote and um, I I believe that also applies to special permits for Things for for applications related to housing That could also be granted by majority vote rather than a special rather than a Two-thirds vote what i'm not clear on is and I think i'm right in this I believe that the special permit is a discretionary permit and it would still be Able to be denied I believe that's true. Although I have to check that out But that's in the nature of the special permit that you can deny it So I think you either vote for these certain things by majority or you you know, you can you can still deny it But we have to get a little bit more specific about this rob and I have to look at this more carefully And we probably have to talk to Our our town attorney joel bard about exactly what does this mean and do we need to change anything in our zoning by-law? to Accommodate this new law. So that's something that we will be Investigating and coming back to you with what we hope are clear answers But we just wanted to introduce the topic and I believe we've sent this Summary to you and if you had any questions You could ask them and we could take them under advice and get back to you with the answers Thank you chris Janet jenet has her hand raised. Oh, no It's residual. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. All right Um the form a Subdivision Applications any yes, we do have a form a and you got a map GIS map in your packets, which you didn't receive sorry But pam can show you the the location of the property. It's on Pomeran Lane It's just east of the Oh, this is can you flip that around pam so north is pointing up You know, I've flipped it For this presentation so it matched the other one Oh, well, it's easier to look at a GIS map if it's oriented with north going up. So What this gentleman wants to do a fellow, um, let's see michael pal and his wife adriana. Whoops. Sorry Sorry It's so ephemeral, isn't it? Um, anyway, they own the property that's outlined in yellow here and it's um Along pamery lane right across the street from pamery court. So it's just A little bit east of the pamery intersection that we'll be talking about about the mass works project We're not talking about that tonight But the town will be talking about that and it's just east east of carriage lane If you're if you're familiar with that subdivision down there So they own this big piece of property and what they'd like to do is be able to carve out A piece that encompasses the existing house Which is where they live And they want to be able to build a bigger house for their growing family. I think they have four children Back on the back property here. So, um, if pam can show us the A and r map now that would be helpful and I see now why she flipped the other I flipped it Yes, I thought it was so on the ball in this case north is to the left So, um, what they're showing here is the property with the existing house In this square this little square towards the front of the property and then they're showing a um An access strip, which is 40 feet wide and that's what's required And then they're showing the location of the house The access strip is um Yes, that's it, right And then location of the new house is back there and they also want to build a barn So they're showing the building circle Where they want to put the barn they're showing some Some setback information to to prove that the new buildings will be Appropriately located and and won't Won't be against the setback lines And so this is what they want to do. So if the board would Would agree I would ask Mr. Gemsick to come and meet me at town hall to sign this plan Um, the comments that we received from the town Uh engineer were that when the properties are eventually separated and one is sold Um, he would recommend that there either be an easement Um across the common driveway, you can see that there's a common driveway On on the north there, um, or that the driveways be separated So each house would have its own separate driveway The way it's shown on this plan is that each house Would have its own separate driveway, but there's a little piece of driveway connecting the two so So either and I've passed this information along to michael pal That he either needs to grant an easement to The person who is going to buy the property or He would need to cut off that little piece of of driveway So do you agree? Do you have any questions? And then if not, do you agree that jack can sign the plan? Oh, and by the way, I meant to say this this will be going before the zoning board of appeals The zoning board of appeals is going to look at a grading plan for the driveway and a grading plan for the area around the house and it may get into The trees that might be removed if they're over six inches So the zoning board is going to be looking at this carefully With regard to granting a special permit for a flag lot But this is the first step when they separate the two properties any comment Doug Yeah, I guess I'm I'm a little bit puzzled on what basis could we object? Um, if you saw there was something here that didn't Comport with your understanding of the zoning bylaw Um, I think that would be a cause for objection And then we would go back to the applicant and say you really need to get your Surveyor to look at this more carefully But I've looked at it carefully the town engineer has looked at it carefully And we don't see any um any issues with zoning The flag lot needs to be twice the area of the required Lot area in the zoning district So the front portion of this lot Is in the our end zoning district which requires 20 000 square feet in lot area and the rear portion Um for the flag lot would require 60 000 square feet because it's in the ro district And they have a total of 93 000 on the back lot and 28 000 on the front lot So they so they meet that requirement and they meet their frontage requirements So i'm not seeing any problems with this but um It's really a case when jack signs this he's saying This does not require subdivision approval That's why it's called a and r subdivision approval not required Well, i'm not going to second guess you or or jason skeels. So um, I will Uh, agree to that to jack signing Okay Does anyone have any questions? Yeah, it looks you know looks good, uh tom I was just gonna say that I I approve you to sign it as well. Okay Okay good Okay, um, okay, so I think we can oh andrew Yeah, I wasn't sure if you're doing a roll call, but I approve also. Okay Uh, should we do a roll call press? Sure if you want to okay, um You need a motion Yes, I move to approve the a and r just described And a second Second Okay, maria. All right. So let's go through maria approve Tom approved andrew proved dog I accept Janet I Johanna I And myself accept so Okay, thank you very good Anything else along the lines of the for me Nope subdivision. Okay upcoming zba applications Nothing to report sir All right, um upcoming spp sprs ube applications Not that I know of All right Uh, we can go on to the playing board committee and liason reports Pioneer valley planning commission um Nothing of note. I mean I had an executive committee meeting uh last thursday but again, nothing of note um With regard to the cpa andrew We had a meeting last thursday and unfortunately I only made the tail end of it We've got another one that we're looking to schedule in february. We had just um in the portion that I was present for we just talked about ways we might be able to Standardize our evaluation and and how we review the criteria consistently So I think that that work will probably carry over into february as well They also were putting together a timeline of How we could approach this work in a more You know controlled manner Rather than kind of like the hockey stick at the end of the year and and how we might be able to solicit more stations Thank you Doug Marshall on the ag commission We have met met. So no nothing new great Tom on the design reviewer board Very good, uh and chris Well, we we already had the the joint committee there. So I would think that we Be on top of everything there, but um Uh, and then that also the zoning subcommittee so Uh reported the chair. I have nothing to add Or to staff I have nothing to add Great, so we can adjourn what 941 I have Thank you all