 Hey, everyone. Thank you so much for watching. My name is Raif Derrazy and I've recently begun regular interviews of experts in HIV science, cure research, healthcare, advocacy, and community support. Today, I have the distinct and exciting pleasure of getting to interview Mr. Mark S. King. Mark is an award-winning blogger, author, speaker, and HIV AIDS activist who has been involved in HIV causes since testing positive in 1985. Mark was named the 2020 LGBTQ journalist of the year by the National Lesbian and Gay Journalist Association, which also awarded him their excellence in blogging honor in 2014, 2016, and 2020. My fabulous disease, his amazing blog, won the 2020 GLAAD award for Outstanding Blog After Five Consecutive Nominations and was named one of 2020's Out 100 by Out Magazine. Oh, that's an mouthful. Hey, Mark, how you doing? I'm great. How are you, Raif? I'm really good. Gosh, that was a long introduction. I really need to stop, you know, winning things, just so we can get to the chase. Exactly. Make it easy for me, please. So, Mark and I actually met, we met in 2019 at USCHA. That was my first time going to an HIV AIDS conference and you went out of your way to introduce yourself to me via social media before I even got to the conference, kind of took me under your wing and just made sure I was comfortable and happy there. So, I was, thank you for that. Well, you're very welcome. You know, it's always great to see, you know, you were a social media fellow, as I recall. So, you were already on the scene, you know, putting yourself out there as a person living with HIV and I'm all about that. You know, I'm, you know, I want to lift up other voices, you know, I can't do this forever, you know. And so, it was nice to see a younger voice on the scene who was, you know, you know, putting himself out there. And you also had, you know, this great hook, you know, you were an all-natural bodybuilder. It was something that you did as a result of your HIV diagnosis. It was just such a great story. So, it was fun to lift you up and it's nice to see that you've stuck around, you know, you didn't come in and you, and then you kind of faded away, you know, you've stuck it out and can really become a part of our community and I'm very happy for you. Thank you. And to your point, it was, it's actually been hard, especially during the pandemic. I, there's so many aspects of my life that kind of fell apart and I really had to fight and push through to like pick up those pieces again. And so, here I am in 2023, so many years later, and I'm finally feel like I have my rhythm again. And that's why I'm bringing you on as one of my first interviewees so that we can. Well, you know, we're all going through it, right? You know, you are not alone in that. And we all kind of lost our rhythm, you know. And I'm amazed at the people who figured it out and use the pandemic to even increase, you know, what they were doing. It definitely threw me off. Yeah, same. Well, I want to start by asking you a general wide birds eye view question that I'm going to be asking everybody. And it is, what is your current assessment of the global HIV epidemic? And you can answer that however you feel you want. Well, you know, it's it's my assessment of all pandemics and health care in general around the world, which is a real big difference between the haves and the have nots. You know, if you have access to medications of any kind, for whatever thing you're you're dealing with, then you're going to be okay. And if you don't, you're not. You know, we certainly saw that through COVID. And the same is true with AIDS, HIV, it always has been. When we look globally, it's those who have access to all of those, you know, medical breakthroughs that have been made over the, you know, the last couple of decades. And whether or not you're going to reach an undetectable level depends on not on whether you want to and have the will. It's whether you have the way. Do you have access to those medications that are saving lives or medications that are helping people prevent HIV transmission in the first place? And and you know what that goes for the United States, I'm not talking about some far flung, although I am countries out there who don't have resources. I'm talking about the USA South. You know, I'm talking about black trans women having more than a 50% chance of living with HIV in their lifetimes. I'm talking about states here in the United States rejecting HIV prevention funding because of political purposes. You know, we have so much disparity right here in the United States. So when you ask me, I can't help but think as we all should about those who are left behind. You know, I often talk about the fact that white cis gay men, we got what we came for. You know, historically speaking, we came in, we made a lot of noise, we sped up clinical trials. We got the attention that we desperately needed and we should have gotten that. And as a result, medications happened, research happened, support services happened, we got what we came for. And then a lot of us left the playing field. So when I talk about how happy I am to see a man that looks like you, Rafe, who is on the scene, who is talking about issues, it's not for nothing. It's because we need to remain on the playing field for those who are left behind. Black and black and brown people, black trans women, people who are still fighting for the right to exist in this country and to remain healthy living with HIV or prevent HIV infection. Yeah, incredibly well said. And that's a powerful statement that we got what we came for. It's devastating too, because not for your demographic, but just the juxtaposition of everyone else who doesn't fit into that and what that implies for them. And it's very true. Yeah. So if we really want to be the fully human beings that we fought to be recognized as throughout those early years, then we'll keep right on fighting for those who don't look like us. And unfortunately, there seems to be a wave even of legislation that is backtracking on a lot of the progress that we have made that could potentially even influence or affect wife's gender males, gay males, as well as everybody else. Right. We're not free until everybody's free. We're not free of the threat of HIV until everybody's free of that threat, right? This is all a global viral biological community we're in. There is a terrific book that came out last year on the viral underclass by Stephen Thrasher, who lays out the case that we are all, you know, cells away. And that those that suffer the most from any viral pandemic are those who are suffering in general from racism, from transphobia, from homophobia, but chief among those things, racism. Well, taking it back a few years, 1985, my birth year, as a matter of fact. Oh, great. When were you born in 85? May 8th. Oh, okay. So I had already been diagnosed. So as I like to say, I have HIV antibodies older than you. Yeah. Mark said that to me when I first met him. It doesn't get old. It doesn't ever get old. I love saying it. Yeah, hilarious. And it's great that you have, you do have such a humor about the way that you share yourself. So in 1985, you were diagnosed and you essentially immediately started advocacy and activism. I mean, talk about a different time with different realities and different acceptance towards the gay community and towards HIV. Where did you find the strength and the courage to do that? You know, heroism or what we perceive as heroism is often what happens when you have no other choice. You know, and your back is up against the wall and you got to fight. And that's what happens. And that's what happened to me and to a lot of people. Not all of us made that choice. And I respect that. Some people were frozen into an action. Some people were just scared shitless and weren't sure how to respond. I totally get all of that. You know, for me, it was a matter of going to work. In my case, living in Los Angeles and West Hollywood, I went to work for the first AIDS organization that was created in Los Angeles, the LA Shanti Foundation. We trained volunteers to be with the dying and help them die with dignity. That was our mission. Can you imagine? I mean, like fast forward to today in terms of living with HIV. No, we trained volunteers to help people die with dignity. And often people who were rejected by everybody else, they were rejected by their church and their community and their family. And they just wanted somebody to be there for them and not judge them, not tell them everything is going to be okay. Just be there with them and be a compassionate, non-judgmental presence. That was what we did. And in the meantime, I was marching in the streets and I was doing my bit in that regard. But I thought that job working at Shanti was the last job I'd ever have. It was an easy choice to make. It was like, okay, I'll make some points with whoever's upstairs before I die. And it just, as it turns out, we're all different. Life is so random, Rafe. Life is random. The fact that I'm sitting here talking to you is some cosmic weird roll of the dice, random stuff. So many people who were better people than I, who were more, you know, who were bigger activists, who were more empowered, died just as fast as the ones who gave up the minute they were diagnosed. It was just, it was so random. It's that whole fox hole, being in the trenches and war time and the bullets whizzing by. And he gets it and you don't. I don't know how else. And I stopped a long time ago trying to figure out why that is. Instead, I just, that is the way it is. So here I am. And so I'm going to talk to Rafe and tell you the story of what happened to us, you know, and make sense of it. Is that something you had to work through, that this existential question of why me? Why am I here? Yes, sure. Absolutely. You know, while it was happening, and I was going to all these funerals that weren't mine, it was kind of like there was so much happening that you didn't have time to kind of look at it from 20,000 feet and go, why are you? Why not you, Mark? You know, I was just doing my, I was dancing as fast as I could. You know, I was doing my best to just visit the guy in intensive care and deliver the meal over there and do the work I was doing with the organization I was with. You know, and it was just happening so fast that there wasn't enough time to kind of look back and go, why am I still breathing? Because I figured any minute it would be me. I mean, we all got up every morning and checked for the spot, or waited for the cough, or something that would suggest the countdown has begun. You know, we all did that. We all engaged in that little kind of, you know, self diagnosis, you know, on a daily basis. And so, you know, it's funny, it really wasn't until, you know, because this started in 85 for me, it really wasn't until the new medications happened in 97, you know, combo therapy, and suddenly it was something that was legit after so many lost causes of medication. Suddenly, we had medications that worked. And a couple of things happened to me then. A, I could breathe, I could exhale, finally. And I could look back and go, wow, you mean I'm coming out the other side of this? Shit. And then the other thing that happened is I had this kind of delayed reaction where I felt entitled to party because of all those years I had been that had been stolen from me. And so, this very ironic thing happened with me, and that was my response to having survived it was to engage in incredibly self-destructive behaviors. You know, party, you know, in the drugs, and it was like, there was something in me that, you know, I said goodbye to a lot of friends, like literally. And on their deathbeds, holding hands, and made all sorts of promises about not forgetting them and to continue fighting this fight on their behalf. And so, and I did survive and I responded to it by sticking needles in my arm. You know, you know, there's something, there's a lot to unpack there, right, about how that responded. And I guess I'm just saying that I had a second health crisis of my own design that was very much a response to the first one. And I made it out of that one too. You know, when I talk about my fabulous disease, my blog, I'm being cheeky of course about that name, but there's more than one. There's more than one disease. There's been more than one mortal threat in my lifetime. And that is actually good context that we need to remember. And that is there are many mortal threats in a lifetime. We all have our shit. And when I look at someone of your generation or even younger, and they're accused of being apathetic about HIV, I'm like, you know, yeah, okay. I worked really hard so we could get to a place where somebody a little younger might be a little apathetic. I'll tell you know, versus what I went through, I'll take it. Yeah, I'll take it. And no one could fault you for your journey that you went through. I mean, you essentially went through a decade of being in survival mode and enduring all this trauma and never really having the opportunity to heal that or deal with it. Until like you said, you finally had these medications where you could breathe. I think anybody in their right mind would have struggled with dealing with the immensity of that. I can't even fathom. Thank you. I appreciate the generosity of that remark. You know, the fact is, is we are a little wounded, those of us who have been around this length of time. And even those who haven't, who have been around 10 years, five years living with HIV, there is a certain trauma that happens. A lot of it because of the social stigma that we have to deal with, you know, I walked through a graveyard, you know, they say to be a long term survivor, you have to step over a lot of dead bodies, you know. And so there's certainly that trauma to it. And so there is that that you're right, that is legitimate. It's what happened to me. I don't mind telling people the story. It's also true that I will not allow HIV to steal my joy for one more second. That I am so much more than that. And that since being positive, since that time, I've got a new job. I've gone on to do other things. I fall in love. I have a husband and cats and Netflix and chilling and all sorts of stuff that is that my life is about. And so I, you know, I get I get calls and emails a lot from college kids, they're doing a paper on long term survivors, and they want to talk about this great tragedy that I endured. And my first response to them is always, please don't reduce us to that. Yeah, we are so much more. And yes, these things happened. And yes, they were tough. But I can guarantee you, Rafe, there are people watching this video interview right now who have been through worse. It might have looked different for them. It might have been some other challenge that had nothing to do with HIV, but it's worse for them. It's at least just as bad. We all have our stuff. You know, the question is, how do you respond to it? And how is it going to shape you? What is it going to provide to you that makes you better, that makes you stronger, that makes you more capable of being empathetic to somebody else? Because if it doesn't make me that, what the hell was it all for? Amen. You might know something about that in your relatively short career living with HIV. You might know something about that. Yeah, sure. And, you know, what is going on for you right now? Well, I am thinking about, you know, just my own journey with my diagnosis of AIDS in 2012. And then, you know, I've had my share of dealing with alcoholism and addiction in my life since I was a child. So, and that was one of my questions was going to be, do you have any words or insight for other people who are watching this who also struggle with addiction in one form or another? Or also the loved ones, friends, family who are, if not victims, to the relationship with that person, witnesses to it and, yeah. Well, first of all, forgive yourself. I have to tell myself that every day. And I'm telling that to you. Forgive yourself. And take the help that is offered to you or seek it out. Addiction of whatever form is a family disease. It affects everybody involved with that person and everybody has to adjust and make excuses for and make allowances for and feels the pain and feel, you know, it's a domino's falling all over the family, all over the social unit of that person, you know. So we have a lot of cleaning up to do when we have whenever we get to the point where we're ready to deal with it. And thank goodness my family, well, on the one hand, I kept my family at a distance many thousands of miles away. And so a lot of times they weren't there to witness a lot of the wreckage that in my path, you know. But I kept them at that distance because I had other things to do, such as drugs, you know, and I had, you know, my advice for anybody who is acting out in that way for whatever reason, and I'm not saying the reasons aren't legit, we self-medicate in all sorts of ways. We've been through some stuff and we have to self-medicate sometimes, you know. They say if you want to know why you stopped drinking, if you want to know why you drank, stop drinking, and then you're left with those stuff, that stuff to sort out, you know, which you have to face some time one way or another, you know. Anyway, to answer your question, what is my advice to people? A, forgive yourself, and B, help is available. There are people waiting to help you who have been through this, who are waiting to help you, and you don't have to be in a big city if you're, if my crystal meth was my downfall. You don't have to be in a big city to find a crystal meth anonymous meeting. They exist because they exist online. There's probably one happening right now, you know. There are people who have been through whatever your thing is, alcohol, drugs, you know, gambling, sex, whatever it is that you are self-medicating with, that you're trying to escape whatever you're feeling through that. There are people there that have been through it too, and they are sitting here and they are at the ready waiting to help you. You felt that there were resources that you could go to? Well, first, there were, but I didn't know about it for years and years. The years that I was doing drugs, it didn't compute to me intellectually, oh, you know, I could get help for this. I mean, I knew, like generally speaking, that there's help for the others, the Betty Ford, there's rehab. Yeah. But I didn't connect the dots. I didn't connect the dots. And I think that a lot of people just think that they'll do this, you know, that they'll be in active addiction until they die. And for a lot of people, that's sadly exactly what happens, you know. I think that a lot of us don't connect the dots. We don't realize, oh, no, no, there is help. I can pull myself out of this. I can take the rope that's being thrown to me, you know, because they don't know where this rope is coming from or trust who it might be throwing it. You know, we're so caught up in our stuff that we're, I, for so many years when I was in that place, I thought I was doing just great because I was making all my own decisions and doing everything I could to protect the addiction from anybody else who might harm me. And that included people that were trying to help me. I didn't trust them either, you know. Walking away from that is a scary, scary thing because it's like jumping off a cliff. How do I know somebody's going to be there to catch me? How do I know that life will be better without all this? How do I know? And I didn't know. It was blind faith, you know. But yes, there are programs and they are free and there are groups of people who have survived alcoholism and sexual addiction and crystal meth and all of those things. And they are meeting in church basements and online and in places right now. And they're, they know you. They know the person who walks through that door. And I think it's important that I think it's important that those of us who are living with someone who is struggling with addiction, myself, I grew up with my, with my biological father and then my stepfather and then, you know, relationships throughout my life dealing with different forms of addiction. And I think it's equally as important that those people have access to resources to to get access to therapy and then also just to know how to communicate. And like you said, be the person that you would need in that situation instead of we come into these things with so much baggage and so many feelings. It's, it's terribly difficult to know the right way to communicate in that situation. I talked to a lot of family members who reach out to me for whatever reason and they're so helpless. And, and, and, you know, it's so hard to be, to have to tell them, let go, let go, step away from the addicts, take care of yourself. Those things that you're doing that one would normally do with a loved one to support a loved one are actually the, the, the, the most hurtful thing you can do for them. And that is keep helping, keep helping, keep putting that safety net out there, you know, that you think might save their life, but in fact it's killing them because it keeps giving them the opportunity to keep using, to keep using, keep using you as well as the drug because they're terribly sick and, and, and it's hard to be able to tell a family member that because it goes against everything that they feel instinctually they want to do to help, you know. Yeah, those are really hard words to hear, but that's a really powerful statement in eye opening. Yeah, you give them enough rope to hang themselves, you know, and it's rough and sometimes, you know, they say, you know, the gift of reaching bottom, you know, the fact that you have to get there to go, oh, maybe now I'm ready for help, you know, as long as you got a little lifeline, as long as you got a few dollars coming in because the family member keeps throwing your way because you keep asking, you know, or, you know, and it's counterintuitive to everything we know about trying to love somebody and help a family member, you know. It really is. All right, well, on that note. Rafe Derrazy, this is not the conversation I expected to have today, and I'm so grateful, I'm so grateful to you for letting yourself be vulnerable and telling the truth and feeling the feelings. And thank you. Thank you. Yeah, of course. I wish I could say that it was a decision that I made and not helplessly just a part of who I am. But yeah, you know, it's great and it's really important and it's why I do what I do. So I know people are going to get value out of this interview, especially. Well, you know, and I appreciate you, you know, I learned a long time ago that if we want to succeed in reaching people, whatever that means, building an audience, all of those things that people can smell a fake from a mile away, authenticity, you know, we reveal ourselves. I had an editor tell me 30 years ago, tell the truth. It doesn't matter how you look. It doesn't matter what people think it does. Just tell the truth about what you're going through and let the chips fall where they may. That's that draws people in. And you're going to draw people into your story. And this isn't all about how Rafe Derrazy builds an audience. This is about anybody that wants to connect to other people. Don't worry so much about covering the blemishes and having the best photo lenses. It's about telling the truth. But essentially it's not the end of the year. Although it looks great. Don't get me wrong. You look great, you know, but yeah, it's about just letting ourselves be seen as flawed and human and trying our best. That's what that's what it's all about. So yes, last year, we were celebrating 40 years into the pandemic. We've come a such a long way. We still have a long way to go. Now we're at a point where there's an entire generation of humans living with HIV who have successfully lived with it for decades and now are now aging. Is our attention on aging with HIV? Is it where it needs to be? Are we having the right conversations? What are your thoughts on that? Well, you know, it's easy to say on the one hand, oh, this is all gravy. I thought I'd be dead 30 years ago. So this is all gravy, you know, and and that's a great idealistic way to look at it. And it's also happens to be true. So what has happened now is it has just put me into the same group of aging people that exist elsewhere, which is we're all freaked out about getting older. Now we're dealing with now I'm dealing with mortality from like the regular standpoint. Yeah. Right. I'm going to be 63 this year. You know, this is I am now reaching an age where I'm losing friends for regular reasons, you know, pre age reasons, you know, you say is our focus on that? I think scientifically we can't help but focus on, you know, yes, you're right, aging in HIV is like the new hot topic. Why is that? And I think the reason is, is because I belong to this generation, which we've been the guinea pigs from the beginning, you know, like, oh my gosh, these people have HIV. I wonder how long they'll live because there's no medications. Oh, not very long. Oh, now we have some drugs to throw at them. Now I wonder what will happen to them because we they don't know, right? They have to wait and see. They have to watch us. We have been watched and poked and prodded and studied and blood drawn and our brains examined in MRIs. I mean, all sorts of stuff for 40 years. And and now they're looking at us going, oh, well, now Mark's getting into his 60s and he's been on drugs for a really long time. Wonder what will happen to him now? You know, wonder how long it'll live. Wonder if he'll get osteoporosis and all sorts of weird things or if he'll, you know, lose his faculty sooner because of the HIV, let's watch and see. You know, I can't help but feel a little like great, you know, I'm the first in line and now they're watching to see how long I'm going to survive this part of, you know, you know, it's interesting scientifically. And I guess it beats the alternative, right? That I that I did pass away 30, you know, in the first wave or the second wave. So it is scientifically a very interesting thing. It also makes me feel like, OK, well, yet again, we're the guinea pigs, right? They're going to see how long we survive with this or that or what what weird, you know, secondary infections we get or how fast, you know, we get, you know, Alzheimer's, right? So here's the thing. It's going to help. Examining me and those in my generation and in my boat is going to help the next guy. So good. I may not benefit from whatever they learn about me, but it's going to help the next people and the next generation, you know, are they're going to live a little longer? They're going to avoid some things because what they learned about people like me. Once again, I'll take it. I'll take it. You know, it's it's it's been a gift. And it's funny, you know, I don't want to die any more than the next person does. I don't care how many extra years I've had. I still want to stick around. I want to know what happens on my favorite TV show next season. I want to see how beautiful my nieces look at their weddings. You know, you know, nobody wants this to end. And it doesn't matter how fortunate we've been and how many life tragedies we've survived. We want to stick around and keep watching the show because life is beautiful. Yeah, life is great. And there's so many wonderful people around to get to know. And I'm having a great time. And I hope I get to keep doing it for a long time. I hope so too. And when it ends, Rafe, I'm going to say, hold on, I have a couple of more thoughts I'd like to share. There'll be some damn movie that I really want to get to see. And I'll miss it. And that's too bad. That's such a great insight. I never in a million years would have thought your relationship with that with the scientific community would mirror in a way the way it did during AIDS epidemic. And yes, I imagine that it will help future generations, whatever is learned. But so correct me if I'm wrong, what I'm hearing is that for you, aging as a person living with HIV, for you, the best way to go about it would be to approach it as anyone else would and the same fears and concerns and passions and everything just like anybody else. Because we are, our baseline is we're human. And so we have the same human needs to want to continue to survive and thrive and enjoy all that this beautiful world has to offer. I mean, we're just human, like everybody else, right? We have those same wants. So yeah, you know, I guess what I'm saying is the psychological element of, well, you've survived so much, so you're probably really grateful for that. So you'll probably be fine about dying. No, not so much. Yes, I am grateful for all of those things. And yes, I would like a little more please. I'd like to continue, continue reaping the benefits of my survival by enjoying it all. For sure. I imagine. But I think that's an insight in of itself that wanting to be treated as you are as a human being like anybody else is a powerful note for the healthcare community and the way that they treat those of us living with HIV. Yes, yes, you know, you're absolutely right. You're right. You're right. Boy, you just made what I said sound better than it was because you're right. It's a good note for healthcare providers to not focus so much on our HIV going, oh my gosh, you're a survivor. Well, you must feel great, you know, or you must be grateful. Are you and I'm like, yes, I am. But my prostate doesn't feel so great. Could you please make it so I'm not peeing five times a night? You know, in other words, we do have stuff to talk about. I went to a therapist once and he was at a community organization and it was this therapist like getting his hours in, you know, he was young, hadn't gotten whatever his license. And boy, when he found out how long I'd lived with HIV, you could see that he was just his, he was drooling. He was like smacking his lips. He was like, oh my gosh, you've lived this long with HIV. Oh my, that must be really hard. Tell me all about it. Yeah, we're not here for you. We're here for me. Right. Right. I said, you know, no, not so much. I've really worked through all of that. I'd really like to talk about my, you know, this is a few years back, my inability to have a long term relationship, you know, my interpersonal, you know, whatever it is, you know, he was very disappointed. And there's something you said earlier, Rafe, about how I'd worked through all of that or whatever. And I gotta say that by being a writer and by writing it, I've worked through my stuff that the trauma we talk about, the fact that we're all a little haunted, you know, I've worked through it because I've written about it. It was my therapy, it was my way of getting it down on paper, you know, whether it got posted in an article or on my site or not, you know, I wrote it down and I was able to process. And I've been writing the story and telling the story for years and years. And it's helped me process it. And I'm not saying so everybody should do that. But those of us who have some sort of platform, even if it's the platform of having friends, you know, sometimes the greatest gift you can give to somebody is to say to them, tell me about it. You know, maybe you have a friend who's living with HIV, tell me about it, you know, or you have a friend that's lost a parent or is going through stuff, you know, tell me about it, let them talk it out, let give them an ear, don't try to fix it, don't judge it, just let them be that compassionate presence that we taught volunteers how to be back in the day when somebody was sitting there dying. Don't try to fix it, just listen to them. Absolutely, thank you for saying that. All right, well, clearly I could talk with you forever for hours. But I'm going to try to wrap it up here. I do want to touch on your husband, Michael. Yes. I want to talk about your relationship a little bit, because you know, that's something that's a struggle for a lot of folks living with HIV is they might feel that love or long lasting committed relationships is out of the question that who would want to be with me, you know, now that I'm living with HIV, or they might think, well, I can only be with someone who also has HIV, because they're the only people who would understand. So I'm curious of your own relationship. Is Michael positive? How long have you been together? What is what is that like? You know, it's interesting. We have, we've been together 10 years, a little over 10 years now. We were married seven years ago. And it was, you know, I'm just stupid lucky. I'm just lucky. I, you know, well, I, I loved him right away, I guess I want to say, and he would say, no, you didn't know we didn't talk to love right away. No, no, we were just seeing each other for, you know, he was very cautious, you know. But obviously, we're, we're worthy of love and relationships. And fortunately, there are many, many more all the time, people who are not living with HIV, who understand what you equals you means, who understands what prep is, who know that I have no ability to, to transmit this to anyone else, nor have I had that ability for many years, because I've been unsuccessful treatment. So on more and more, there are people who understand that. I have to have a generosity of spirit toward those who don't, who are still afraid. And by that, I mean, there are people who are negative, who are still nervous about that. Maybe they hear the science, but they're still nervous. And you got to remember, you got to remember, they had a generation of being terrified of HIV and of acquiring HIV. They had a generation of nothing but death and mortality and terrible things, messages toward them. And, and as much as we can say, oh, don't worry about it now, I'm undetectable. Really, it's fine. I'm going to come in you now. You know, no. They're there. Can I say that on your show? Absolutely. You know, they're not on board yet. They're still, it's going to take some time. And it's not rejection, it's fear. You know, I've been there are those who are just, you know, idiots and just reject with, you know, they're willfully ignorant. There's a difference, right? There are people who are just still led by fear and we have to allow that that is the case and it may take longer. And so yes, that HIV negative person who is willing to date you might be a little special. You know, maybe they're, you know, they're, they're more informed than the average bear. And so good for them. That will continue to change. So regardless of whether or not that person in your life or potential in your life is HIV negative or positive, I've had them all in various combinations. And you know, the question is, do you feel worthy of anything, of being loved? You know, and if there's some question there, work on it, see somebody, find out why it is you don't feel that way and work on it. So anyway, to answer your question, yes, I'm stupid happy. And, and he's wonderful. He's a federal employee. He works on healthcare access for people. And he's, he's just great. He's, I, I, he's this cutest little thing. He's just the cutest thing. Okay, this is gonna, I can feel the nauseation coming through the, you know, from other people. So I will stop right there and just say we all deserve it. Absolutely 100%. Do you have any advice for how do you sustain a relationship for that long? What's the secret stuff? Over, overlooking. And I'll tell you, I, and I don't mean overlooking things that shouldn't be overlooked. I'm just saying, let it go, let it go. So what, he wants to do this thing with the clothes and you know, let it go. Um, the other thing is, you know, it really took me about this long in my life about, until about 10 years ago, that I understood what love means. You know, and this is corny. It's kind of like as the older you get, you realize that the corny things that people have always said happen to be true. And we were so young and jaded and that we didn't want to accept that these corny things might be true. Love is caring more about that person or as much about that person's happiness as about your own. And you're young, you're selfish, you're on the move, you're always looking for the next, the next cool thing. And we don't stop long enough to go to really care about what love means. And to me, love is I really care about Michael. I care about my partner. I want him to be happy. I don't want to play games with him. I don't want to make him feel bad. I don't want to, I don't want to let him think he's hurt me about something so that I can hold on to that, throw it back in his face. You know, why the hell would I want to do that? And I played all those games. I played all those games and had fights with people where I said things that were mean that you can't take back when you're done fighting. They're there. They're still sitting there, those terrible things. No, I'm not, I'm not, I'm no longer willing to play those games. I love him and that's that. And I will stand up for him and I will not do things to make him feel bad. I will care about him as much as I care about myself. And I'm telling you, as corny as all that sounds, I was 50 before I understood it. Well, it rings true to me. Good. Good. Well, you're way ahead of the game. Understanding and implementing are two different things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if they don't treat you like that, if they throw shit up in your face, if they try to, you know, play games with making points left and right, as opposed to caring about you, have a very low tolerance. Have a very low tolerance for that. And then you're out. And then you're out. Don't wait around. Don't think you're going to fix them. Out. There, you want advice? That's it. Why words, everyone? Yeah. All right, Mark. Well, thank you so much for this great conversation. You're welcome. I certainly hope you'll edit down to a reasonable. I might cut out a few minutes. You know, these are supposed to be not just surface conversations and interviews. We're supposed to go there. So people want to go. I think people want to go on that ride. So where can folks go to if they want to follow you and or your work? They can always go to myfabulousdisease.com. And that's the home base for all my stuff. And then if you want to follow me on Twitter and all those things, you can figure out how just go to myfabulousdisease.com. Okay, we'll go ahead and put a link to the website down in the description below. And I'll have it on the screen for everybody as well. All right, Mark. Thank you again so much. I hope we can revisit this and do this again sometime when it comes up. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for your work, Rafe. Thanks for doing this. Everyone, please like this video if you liked it. Subscribe if you haven't already and hit that bell so you get a notification every time a new video comes out. There's going to be a lot more coming out this year and moving forward. And share this with anyone who you might think would find this helpful. All right, guys, I'll see you soon. Cheers.