 Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Dr. Rimi Longway, head of Department of Political Science, Texas College. I'm a moderator for today's very important, you know, Texas College dot-tox webinar series on Indo-Nagatilema, an unbiased historical and contemporary view with Sir Kovoto Tisi Sumi, a renowned social activist in Naga society today. Well, before I have the honor to welcome and introduce honorable speaker, I would like to inform and request all the participants to kindly mute microphones and refrain from presenting the screen. However, one can use the chat box for putting forward relevant questions to be taken up during the Q&A session later. I also would like to inform all the participants that towards the end of the session, I will be sharing the feedback link which will have to be, you know, filled up by all the participants in a few minutes time. So, without further ado now, I would like to take this opportunity to introduce our honorable speaker. About the speaker, honorable speaker, Sir Kovoto Tisi Sumi is the hereditary chief of the village, Sumi village of Hevisin in Dimokul district. School at St. Edmunds School, Tsi Long, he is a graduate of Huzhel Ali College, Mokokchong, a well-read person. He helps from one of the most prominent families of the Sumi tribe of Navalan, deriving a direct lineage to the Lizendri, Chokha, Tisi, chief of the Sishimi village, his great grandfather, Kutu Tisi, established the village of Lokobo approximately 160 years ago. It was his grandfather, Sikipu Sema, who risked British displeasure and the condemnations of his fellow chiefs to grant the American missionary, Mr. Bank, Iver Anderson, permission to open the first Christian center in Sumi territory at Aizutu. His father, Mr. Nibuku Sema, settled at Mokokchong village, Tau, and was one of its most prominent citizens. He was instrumental in the founding of Tau Higher Secondary School, one of the first private English school in Nagaland, Fuzhel Ali College, the first arts college in Nagaland, Sumi M.E. School, now Sumi High School, and Nibuku High School, the first schools ever set up by a tribal community in Nagaland. Drawing from familiarity, his elder brother, Mr. Enato Tisi, being a repository of knowledge of these issues with nearly all the prominent players, both overground and underground, in the Naga issue. From colonial times to post-independent status, the speaker's credential to discuss the Naga issue is as good, if not better, than that of any other Naga. Now, as you all know, the Naga issue described as one of the world's, you know, oldest surviving insurgency problem. But for us, ours is not the issue of insurgency in reality. We have, you know, something which we deserve to get. We are asking something that we deserve to get. There are very many aspects of a Naga movement, and we are very, you know, privileged today to have Sir Uto Sisi, you know, a renowned social activist, and who has, who's credentialed to talk about this issue. You know, no, is, is, you know, no wonder that better, much more better than anyone else in another society today. So without further ado, I would like to, you know, welcome everyone. Please join me. Welcome Sir Uto Sisi Sumi, our honorable speaker for our session today. Sir. Thank you, Dr. Ramai, and good evening to all the viewers. The topic which I am addressing is very, it has multiple threads. Although our history, Naga history is not that long, there have been so many players and so many threads to restore it, that it is very confusing. And amidst the confusion, it is very unfortunate that many lives have cropped up. Now, my purpose, initial purpose was to address the contemporary realities that we're facing today. But when we confuse the present by raking up the past, and by manufacturing or super imposing different stories, then it creates no confusion and we use direction. So my intent, I don't know if I'll be able to cover all that I wish to do, but my intent is to clear up confusions of the past and try to address where we are heading. So what we have to keep in mind is that we Naga's, we lived untouched and unknown by people until the advent of the British. Now, prior to the arrival of the British, every Naga village was an independent, self-governing, self-sustaining unit. Some villages may have owed penalty or suzerainty to larger villages, they might have paid annual tributes, but those were exceptions to the rule. And even in such cases, the village unit itself was independent in every other way. Now, after the arrival of the British, the first major event that the Naga's faced was the demand for labour during the First World War. So now, the British raised a number of labour corps across India, but in the Naga Hills, the 21st Naga labour corps was raised. Now, this labour corps consisted of 1,000 Sunnis, 400 Lothars, 200 Aos, 200 Ringmas, and 200 Changs and Trans-Border tribes. Trans-Border means the unadministered parts, what we presently know as Quang Sang, Mohn, Kee Free, and all those districts. And this group was led by Mr. Kuhayj Momi, the Chief of Sky Village, with the assistance of Mr. Hekeke Awomi of Surimi Village. Now, that is one aspect. Now, the confusion arises when members of the Manipura labour corps, the 22nd Manipura labour corps, they were an entirely separate unit. They had no connection with the Naga labour corps. Only their destination and their goal was similar. Now, this Manipura labour corps was raised with the permission of the Maharaja Manipura. And although, see, one thing you must keep in mind is we should not confuse the word Manipura with the ethnic group Maite. Maite are the ethnic group and Manipura is the name of the land where different people reside. Now, the Manipura labour corps, the tribals of Manipura were reluctant and Reverend William Pettigrew he convinced the tribals to join. And at that time, the cookies, they were not willing. And that led to the first, some call it the British call it the Cookie Rebellion. We have different names for it. So, anyway, the Angami units of the Naga labour corps were diverted to the British troops to help the British troops to suppress the cookies. So, now this 22nd Manipura labour corps, it consisted of 750 lamkums, 750 cookies. And 500 from the remaining tribes from the present-day districts of Mao and Senapa. And these were led by interpreters. They were not led, they were accompanied by interpreters and assistant interpreters. And chief among them was a Mr. Kamre Shaza, then Porong Singh, then Rui Cham Ho, Rumsong, and Teba Porong. Please forgive me if I get the pronunciation wrong. And Thomsong Mulhau. So, we should not confuse the 21st Naga labour corps with the 22nd Manipura labour corps. They had no connection, they were raised from entirely different places, from comprised of entirely different people, they had no connection with each other. Now, this has led to the confusion of the formation of the Naga club. Now, the Naga club, I have tried gathering sources from, I was gathering information from multiple sources. And the closest I got was that it was formed in March of 1918 by Mr. Richale Penu, along with others working in the then DC office actually. And Mr. Penu here I think. He was the first president, secretary, armed treasurer, because they were not many members. Now, on May of the same year, 1918, when the Naga labour corps returned to Naga land, they, not all of them, but some of them for are joined the Naga club and thereby strengthened it. So, we should not have any confusion about those who joined the labour corps and those who formed the Naga club. Now, the reason why these two events are so important for the memorandum to the Simon Convention in 1929. Now, these were signed by some members of the Naga club. Now, I don't see what the confusion is, because the wording is very clear. I forgot to bring the print out, but I will read from my file from it in my phone. Please be here with me. Sorry Ash. It says, we, the undersigned Naga of the Naga club, who are the only persons at present, who can voice for our people have heard with great redundancy. The wording is, who are the only persons at present. So, in the day and age, when it was difficult to communicate with other people, they took it upon themselves to speak for all the Naga people. Just because some of our tribesmen do not have the names of the signatures there, doesn't mean they're excluded. They are saying clearly that they are speaking since they are the ones present. Now, they had multiple reasons for their fears of being, but one of the issues was taxation. It says our country is poor and it does not pay for its administration. Therefore, if it is continued to be placed on the reform scheme, we are afraid that new and heavy taxes will have to be imposed on us. So, the fear of taxation was one of the driving factors and the second was the fear of encroachment from other people who are more advanced than us. So, please do not make this this memorandum a point where we exclude some people or some people try to claim greater rights because of this. So, that is another aspect to that. Now, if you have any questions, I'll be willing to answer them later on, but since there are a lot of trades here, many stories, I would like to advance as fast as possible. Now, coming to the NNC. Now, the NNC in its first resolution passed on 19 June 1946. It does not talk about independence. There were four points there. The first point was solidarity of the Navathrides, including those in unadministered areas. So, which were not properly ruled by the British. The second was it was at that time that Assam was brought under the administration of Bangor. So, the NNC objected to that. The third point was autonomy. Autonomy, sorry, within Assam. Please keep this in mind. Within Assam, we'd safeguard for the interests of Nagaland. This is the first time that the term Nagaland was used. There were no defined borders, but when they used the term Nagaland, they meant Nagaland-inhabited areas. And the fourth point was separate electorate of the Navaths. So, the story develops. I am not saying that anyone has established our right to independence or anyone has sold our right to independence. What I'm just narrating is the story. The sequence of events that happened. I'm not claiming anything. Why am I denying anything? Please keep that in mind. I'm just taking your facts. If you have counter-facts, you can pick it up. Now, in 1947, the nine-point agreement, the Albor-Hydery agreement, there, among others, this has been the precursor of successive agreements, including the 16-point agreement and the basis for the foundation of the state of Nagaland. Now, in the nine-point agreement, point number three states, no laws will affect the terms of the agreement or the religious practices of the Nagas without the consent of the NNC. So, what are the fears of the Nagas was that we would be converted to Hinduism. So, this was addressed. And point number four brings up the same. The terms of the agreement or the land will not be affected without the consent of the NNC. The wording, I believe that Article 321a has taken, springs up from this, because without the consent of the Nagaland Assembly, nothing would be passed. No central laws can be passed with Ricardo Navarro. Now, point number six, two states that all Naga areas should be brought under one administrative unit. So, this threat of integration of Naga-inhabited areas carries on. Now, the problem was in point number nine. It says that there would be a review within 10 years. Now, the problem arose when the Indian authorities claimed that after 10 years, the review will be under the constitutional laws of India, whereas the NNC claimed that it will be a totally new agreement. And it does not necessarily have to be under the state of, I mean, under the constitution of India. So, that is under the spectrum. Then, in 1947, Mr. Isaac Pizzo declared independence. He raised the flag on 14 August. We all know the story. But I think one thing we should know is that he did not raise the flag as the president of the NNC. Because at that point in time, the president of the NNC was Mr. Mondromo Gitan. He was the president of the NNC in 1948. Now, it was only in 1951 that Mr. Pizzo became the president of the NNC. Now, after his taking over as the president of the NNC, he held the plebiscite. Now, the plebiscite of 1951, see, we have to understand that this is not a modern day and age where you could travel anywhere you wanted, where you could call up anyone. There were no roads. You had to walk on foot. So, people were sent. And they could not cover every Naga tribe, every Naga area. But they approached the elders of the villages of the tribes and they gave the consent. Now, this practice is still prevalent in Naga. The chiefs, the elders, the council, they decide on behalf of the village. It is not a democratic practice. But this has been the tradition. Now, we may change it in the future. But what has happened in the past has happened. So, you cannot say that this plebiscite was not proper. It was proper for the day and age. So, that is one aspect to that. Then Mr. Pizzo, this is where the first rift among members of the NNC happened. Now, Mr. Pizzo called for all government employees to resign from the government service. Now, this created a wedge between those serving in the government offices and those who are not. And as is usually the case, the more educated were already in service. So, it became a sort of a divide between the educated and the uneducated. And this call from all records that I have been able to access was answered only by two persons, only two persons resigned from government service. One was Mr. Menutang, who was a compounder in the SM records. A compounder is a pharmacist, okay, dispenses medicine. And the second was Mr. Chaknam. He was a carpenter instructor. So, these two persons were the only ones who resigned from government employment. Now, going forward, the war, the battle threats in the story. Now, this, the NNC was the organization. Now, at this stage of time, the Assam police and Assam border guards, they were called. They were already committing atrocities upon the others. So, while this, all this was going on, on the other hand, this conflict had started. Now, the members of the NNC, they realized that they needed a government. Because NNC as an organization was not capable of handling the day-to-day affairs, handling the things. So, in March, 22nd March, 1956, the declaration of the federal government of Nagaland at Pennsylvania village. So, there, that was the first time that a Naga government was formed. So, please keep that in mind. The NNC was the first Naga organization. And the FGN was the first Naga government. So, now, with the declaration of the federal government of Nagaland, then in June of 1956, the same year, 22nd March, it was declared, the government declared. And in June, the FGN had held its biggest ever session at a sunny village, Waka. And Mr. Skatosu was elected the president. But unfortunately, he had not reached the stipulated 45 years of age. The constitution of the NNC FGN stated that the president had to have reached a candidate for 45 years of age. So, an electoral college was formed. And they selected Mr. Krise Nisa, sorry, Krise Nisa, C.A. Tsuk, sorry, as president. He was the first president of the FGN. But in October of 1959, Mr. C.A. Tsuk resigned and then Mr. Skatosu was elected in his place, in his case, at Ihanuni. Now, this is one trait of the story. The other trait is the war. Now, people, especially the younger generation, even I never witnessed that war, because I was still, it was before I was born, and it was a gay land, I was just a toddler. But there was a war going on. It was not an insurgency, it was not a rebellion, it was a proper war between the Naga Army and Indian Army. Now, Mr. Fizo had set up the Naga Home Guard on the General 3D. And Mr. Kaito, the later on General, General, General Kaito had set up the Naga Save Guard, yes. So, when the FGN was formed, it was combined. And that gave birth. The combination of the Home Guard and the Naga Save Guard gave birth to the first Naga Army. And the Commander-in-Chief was General Kaito. So, this war, the first real battle between the Indian Army and the Naga Army took place in mid-August, 1955. It started mid-August, 1935. And there was Koshif to Kakiye village, Sataka area. So, the headquarters of the Army was there, Naga Army, and then the Indian Army attacked them. Now, see, I'm reading the stories because there is a question. I want to show what drove people to do the things they did. So, this war started and the Indian Army and the Assam rebels, they, they pincer attacked the Indian Army from the north and the Assam rebels from the south. Now, mid-August, they started bombarding with mortals. And up to the 4th of September, there was heavy bombardment. And it was only on the 4th of September that they attacked. And from the 4th to the 10th, they fought those quarters. So, this is not an insurgent war. This is a real war between two armies. They are fighting for sustained amount of days without a break. So, this, I'm giving just a few examples. This was under the genuship of General Kakiye. Then again, another instance, these two, I think all of you have heard it, that is the attack on the Tudda post led by General Zehidu. Now, that was fought for four days. They attacked the Indian Army post at Tudda for four days. And the Indian Army could not provide supplies or reinforcements to the troops there. So, they were airlifting, I mean, air-dropping supplies. Then they shot down at the quota. There was just pure blind luck. Anyway, see, these are examples of what I mean of a war. They were ambushes. They were skirmishes. All that was happening side by side. But I'm just giving you these two examples of what it means to have a sustained war with an army. So, this backdrop, alongside with this war, there was a suffering of the people. Now, you cannot imagine what the people of Nagaland were going through at that time. Now, the villages used to call it grouping. But it was herding of the villagers into concentration camps. In fact, the U.S. Army in Vietnam, they copied the Indian system of grouping in Vietnam. Now, the purpose of grouping was to herd villages together so that they could not feed the Naga Army. Now, they were herded together. They were not allowed to cultivate their fields. And in the few instances where they were allowed to cultivate their fields, they had to be packed by a certain type. And there were many instances where, it seems in some instances, they were made to bear body seals. The seals were put on their bodies. And women were sealed on their breast, private partner. See, things like that were happening. Now, the village of Mamatong, I'm giving one example, was raided 30 times in one, within one year. And it was burned, burned to the ground on 2050, April of 1956. Then again, Yampang, Malaysian going south. On April, 1956, 50 villagers were killed. Most of them were beheaded. And later on, in that same year, another 269 of them were killed. See, I'm just giving some examples. There were hundreds of such cases. Now, again, after the first ceasefire in 1960, Mr. Isakhtishesu, he was the Secretary, EXOFS of the FGN. He wrote to the government of India. And in his letter, he states that 34,244 Naga's died in the period 2nd of October, 1952 to 1960. Out of the 34,244, 10,358 were either shot or beheaded, stabbed with bullets. 16,876 died in concentration camps. 7,015 died of starvation. And the rest due to unknown causes. And in that period, 36 villages were razed to the ground. There were similar villages, multiple times, but that is counted as one. So, this suffering, this war was going on, this suffering was going on. And then again, in the organization itself, NNCF, FGN, FGN, tribalism was raised. So, it is very easy in hindsight to blame people. Why did you do that? You shouldn't have done that. But when you look at the context, then you will understand why things developed the way they did. Now, the 16 point agreement. So, there were those who formed the NPC, another people's convention. They were those who saw the suffering of the people and who decided to try to do something about it. And they approached the Indians of Hordes. And at that time, Nagaland was just a district of Horsesan. Now, all that they aspired for was an autonomous area. Did you not even hope for a state? But they decided, since we are with the Horses, they might as well ask for something impossible. So, they up their demand for a state. And they were granted that state. Now, I believe it was sometime in 2000, I don't know the exact year, but when Mr. Jamer wrote The Petrope of Nagas Society, 16 point agreement. Now, so many people were against it. But how many Nagas were there? What he has stated in that book is correct. I'm willing to debate with anyone. I will defend Mr. Jamer. On that book, I do not agree with Mr. Jamer and many more patients. But on that, I agree. That is the bedrock of the society. Because Nagas, as explained earlier, we never existed as a single unit. We were desperate group of people, tribes. Even within the tribes, we existed in different villages. We had no connection with each other. So, the 16 point agreement was the agreement which first put Nagas under one administrative unit under the rule of Nagas. That is the foundation on which we are trying to build up now. That is the bedrock. That is where we will base any future society that we can build. Now, the 16 point agreement, number seven of the 16 point agreement, that is also based on the 9 point agreement. So, these issues are the core issues and they have never been given up by any Nagas. So, that is right to the religious and social practices. Nagas' customary laws and procedure are customary. Civil and criminal laws according to Nagas' customary laws. Ownership and transfer of land and its resources will belong to us. Point number 13 was, please keep this in mind. Point number 13 is consolidation of contagious Nagas areas. The other Nagas tribes inhabiting the areas contagious to the present Nagaland should be allowed to join Nagaland if they so desire. Now, please keep this in mind. Listen to the words carefully. They should be allowed. That means the government of Naira, the government of India, nor the state governments should deny them the right to join Nagaland, but if they so desire. Not by force, but by consent, by will. Now, Mr. R. C. Chitinjamer was sent in 1962 to address the Nagas of Manipur into joining the state of Nagaland. Now, we spoke at Pukul, at the public ground, asking the Nagas of Nagaland to join Nagaland. Now, two people spoke, I don't know about the others, but two people spoke on behalf of the people of Nagaland. One was Mr. R. C. Chitinjamer and the other was Mr. Adikaw Mo. And both of them refused to join the state of Nagaland. So the terms of the 16 point agreement, one of the terms was, it's not that we didn't fulfill it, but some Nagas refused to think, accept it. So please keep all these things in mind when you talk about any issue. All these are connected. Then, now again, since these were happening on different threads, on panel lines, but all are connected to stories. So again, I come back to the question of the RGN, the Revolutionary Government of Nagaland. Nobody who talks about it, I don't know why, but their accusations that the Simis betrayed the Nagakos, the NNC, by forming the RGN. Now, those who say the Simis betrayed the NNC or the Nagakos, do you know the sequence of events that led to the formation of the RGN? Now, taking the example of the Irish struggle, the Irish had an organization, the Simpe. And they had the army, the IRA, the Irish Revolutionary Army. Now, when they were fighting with the British, the organization was sidelined and the IRA had complete authority on all matters, because when you're fighting a war, when you're fighting a guerrilla war, it falls to the fighters to decide matters. Even in a conventional country, during times of war, the politicians listened to the generals. So now, whether you admit it or not, whether you like it or not, the Simis bore the brunt of the fighting, the Simis bore the brunt of the sufferings. I'm not saying that Simis and that will no rights because of that, no. We did a part, everybody did this part, some in greater measure, some in lesser measure, but we all have an equal share. But when you say Simis betrayed the cause, then it is for Simis also to claim what we did. Now, I'm not sure to defend Simis, I'm just narrating this to you. If it is wrong, if you find it actually incorrect, then you can correct it. So I will narrate the sequence of events. Now, in 1960, the first Indonaga ceasefire was declared. Now, in 1965, General Kaito was removed as the commander-in-chief and he was made the defense minister. Now, that seems like an update, but when you are fighting a war, when you are taken away from battlefield, then that means you are sidelined. And that would have been okay, but it is on record that a member said that anybody can be command-in-chief except Kaito. Now, that is not the way a government is run. So we can argue about that later on or on another day, but that is how it was removed in 1965. Now, from 1966-67, there were rounds of talk at prime ministerial level. See, the NSNIM when the first time I signed an agreement with the government of India, there was a thing, the promise of talks at prime ministerial level. They were hoping what had happened in the past. It was nothing new. But the difference is that there really were talks on the prime ministerial level. Mrs. Indra Gandhi was speaking directly to Mr. Kaito, the prime minister of the Indian prime minister, prime minister. Now, there were six rounds of talks in that period. And on the sixth and final round, what I heard was that during the course of the talks, Mrs. Gandhi told Mr. Kaito, oh, Mr. Sky, your house is divided. Now, later on, it came to pass. See, recently there was an article and I think a video by the print article, I forgot where it came from. Anyway, they blame Mr. Muiwa. But in this case, Mr. Muiwa had nothing to do with it. It was Mr. Rameo, Z. Rameo. He was also Thangkul. He was Fizo's man during the talks. He was relaying the messages to and fro, informing Mr. Fizo of what's taking place. So, whether he instigated Fizo or not, whether Fizo did his own accord or not, nobody knows. But the message was conveyed by Mr. Fizo to Mr. Kaito that no agreement can be signed without the signature of the president of the NNC. So, now when Mr. Fizo is in London, so that meant either extension of the talks or whatever there was a delay because of that. Now, currently, some members walk away from the talks and their excuse was that the Hyderabad house where they were staying, they were asked to vacate Hyderabad house. Now, they took it as an insult maybe. But in my opinion, and in the opinion of a few elders I met, they said, see, it does not matter where you stay as long as you can get what you want. So, it's just an excuse. So, whatever the case is, and the reason why the Nagas were asked to vacate Hyderabad house was because a Russian trade delegation which had a long-standing engagement to come to India, they were going to be put up there. Anyway, let that aside. So, the talks failed. The six rounds of talks, prime ministerial level failed. Now, there are 66 to 67. Now, on 10 April 1967, now, Mr. General Kaito was the commandant chief. His elder brother, Gato, was the prime minister. And Mr. Scott O'Soo, the president, they were in loss. So, it seemed on the surface, it seemed as if one family was controlling the FGN. And again, other times it says that the simis controlling the FGN. But when you talk about that, what exactly were they doing? There was a war going on. They were fighting the war. There were talks going on. They were doing what they had to do. So, this is subjective what I am giving the facts as they stood there. Now, 10 April 1967, Mr. Scott O'Soo was removed from the presidency of the FGN because of one reason. Now, all along they had been fighting with the Indian Army without the budget, without the defense budget. Now, suddenly a defense budget of 25 black rupees was put up. Now, Mr. Scott O'Soo, his contention is that when Nagas are so poor, when they can hardly pay house tax or five rupees, how do they expect to raise them? So, he did not give presidential assent to the family. Now, according to the constitution, if the president does not assent or does not reject the bill within 90 days, then the bill automatically passes. So, Mr. Scott O'Soo, non-assent was just a symbolic gesture on his part. The bill would have been passed, but they used it as an excuse to impeach Mr. Scott O'Soo. And the impeachment procedure also was varied. It should have been a two-thirds majority, but none of them happened. Anyway, I'm just stating facts. Now, that is 1987. Now, 1968, on May 6, 1968, Mr. Scott O'Soo, who was the prime minister, was removed stating that they wanted to change, the FGN wanted to change the form of government from a prime ministerial to a presidential form of government. Now, along with that, what people do not know is Mr. Scott O'Soo was already fighting with his younger brother, General Kaito, because General Kaito had seen all his maneuverings against them to depose them. So, he wanted to form an army government, but his elder brother Kaito refused, saying that if we form an army government, that means we will have to control people by force. And even so, while that was going on, again, the Oho Tatar Ho Ho said that they would change the system of government. Therefore, Mr. Kaito would have to step down. Now, he stepped down. After six months, again, they reverted back to the prime ministerial system of government. So, if you were in his place, what would you think? Was it a genuine wish to change the system of government or was it an excuse to remove him from office? So, these are the reasons why the simis felt betrayed. It was a systematic, they seem to be a systematic, whether it's here or not, it is for everyone to make their own judgment. But they seem to be a systematic movement to remove simis from the positions of power they were holding. Now, despite all that, Mr, sorry, General Kaito, he formed the army government in 1997, but since his brother did not consent to it, nobody joined General Kaito. Apart from a few, of course, a few people were his followers following him, but nobody of importance. Then he was assassinated. After that, they was again under controversy. There were some who wanted to break the ceasefire and some who wanted to continue the ceasefire. Now, the very odd thing was those who did, most of the fighting wanted to continue the ceasefire, whereas those who did the last part, they wanted to break the ceasefire in time. So that led to the formation of the Revolutionary Government of Nagaland. All these events combined. The fact that there was a systematic targeting, removal of simis from officers of power, combined with the fact that simis were born in the brunt of the fighting, were searching for a way out, whereas others wanted to start the fight again. So they formed the Arjen. Now, what did the Arjen do? Did they make a deal with the Government of India? No. If you know of any such, please tell me. They continued the ceasefire. The Arjen continued the ceasefire up to 1973, I believe. Yes, 1973 was the year when they surrendered. They surrendered and those who wanted to join the PSF joined. The vast majority of them didn't join. They just went back to the thing, prior lives. They may have been one or two people in positions of power in the Arjen who might have taken advantage, but there was no formal agreement, no formal package, nothing of that sort. The only demand was for the creation of four new districts. Up to that instant of time, Nagaland had only three districts, Kohima, Mogulchung and Jwensang. And it was the Arjen's condition. The only condition they had was to create the districts of Mon, Pek, Wakha and Zinabutok. And that is the end of the Arjen story. They did not tax people. They did not claim to bring something better for an hour. There were the elements which felt betrayed by the NNC. The NNC making that the Arjen betrayed them, but the Arjen also felt that the NNC had betrayed them. So they walked out. They surrendered, finished. That's the end of the story. No need to point fingers. The facts are there. Now, coming to the NNC. Now, the funny thing is these people who have been denouncing all the previous accords, who are all for war, they signed the Shlomo Accord. And the Shlomo Accord just won the first point is that to accept without condition the constitution of India. That tells the story for itself. I will not elaborate. No need to go into why they signed, who signed it, what were the terms of the thing. Accord. Point number one. Then Muiva and Issa, they condemned the Shlomo Accord. Then again, another part of the story is in 1979 Issa and Muiva, they were surrounded. That was when they were in Burma, first world Burma, or present day Myanmar. They were surrounded and I mean, who not surrounded, they were arrested. And they were about to be taken in. But those who wanted to execute them needed an order from General Kole Konyak. And General Kole Konyak refused to sign their order for their execution. In that period, Kablan came, Mr. Kablan came, he surrounded the camp and said that if Issa and Muiva are harmed, they would kill everyone in the camp. And that still made Kalyron for three days. At the end, Issa and Muiva, they were spared. And that's just a side story of the differences between the NNC. Now, in 1980, we all know that the NSN was formed. Now, formation of the NSN was done by Issa, Muiva and Koli, sorry, Kablan. Now, what all of us are wondering is about the split, the split in the NSN. Now, depending on who you listen to, you have different sources. I've also heard many different stories from different sources. But from what I gather, the closest to the truth I thought was that Mr. Muiva was going to China. They called it the Ale Kamal, the Orang Kamal. Then while crossing the Kachin territories, some misunderstanding cropped up between the Kachins and Mr. Muiva and the Kachins refused in passage. And they sent word to the NSN saying that in future, only Issa and Kablan will be allowed to pass Kachin areas, not Muiva. So, Issa was sent in this place. Now, during the absence of Issa, there were two parties emerged within the NSN. One was for talks with India. The other was against it. Now, I believe that Mr. Muiva was the one who started this, the talks with India. He wanted talks with India. And while this was going on, the killing started. Now, it might have started as a fractional feud, but it ended up as a tribal war. Because the people of Myanmar, the Nagas of Myanmar, they used to carry the loads of the NSN, they used to do all their works, mineral labor, everything. But see, it means don't think that I am being tribalistic or I have a certain hatred for any certain tribe. But this is not something I invented. This is what I've heard. This is what I have been able to confirm so far. The Tangkuls used to really mistreat the villages of Myanmar. They used to beat them, they used to mock at them for the ignorance, beat them when they couldn't carry loads. So, maybe the villagers saw this opportunity, this fractional feud as they operated for revenge and they chased off all the Tangkuls. So, if this version is right, there was never a split in the NSN. It was just one tribe was driven away. Anyway, I leave that, I am not giving any judgments, I leave that to your own judgment. You form your own opinion. Now, coming back to Isabh, what was Isabh doing at this period of time? He was not dead. So now, people have given me various things, that I support this or that. So, Mr. Kitobi, I know him by reputation. His wife is related to me also from the same village, my village of origin. But I have never met him, whether you believe it or not. But that's what I'm stating. And if you can do that, I met him, then you may bring that proof and shame me in public. Anyway, yesterday I went to meet him. I wanted to ask him, what was, what were you doing? What did Isabh do at this period of time? Because he, after Isabh, was the senior amongst the seniors. Now, whether you like it or not, whether you like it or not, the Naga army is still run on tribal lines. We may talk about nationalism, but our tribe is paramount. There are few from every tribe who believe in the national language, who fight for the national language. But the vast majority still hold on to our tribal languages. Still hold on to our village languages. So, I wanted to know from Kitobi what happened. So, according to his thing, Isabh had gone to China, was on the way to China, when this misunderstanding cropped up. So, he sent word to Isabh saying, please come back. Things are not going well. Then what, what, what he replied he got, he seems was there. Isabh told him, just hold on. It is a very important mission. I cannot come back, but stick with the majority. So, Kitobi, he followed the majority. Now, I asked him, then what happened when Isabh came back? He said, Isabh came back, never said anything, and then went to India via Anarcha. And they have no formal contact, I mean personal contact since then. So, that is another version of what, not another version, that is what the only thing I've heard about what Isabh did after this thing, the action split of 1918. Now, read that is made, that is, this is just, I'm just giving the background. What I want to discuss is the contemporary techniques now. Now, the NSCN IM, they are a relatively new outfit. Now, how did they gain prominence, how did they gain power in Nagaland? Very simple. They managed to fool the elders of Nagaland with false Christian principles, talking about Nagaland for Christ, Christianity on the one hand, on the other hand, no tolerance killing anyone who even speaks out against them. And they managed, at the same time, while they were fooling the elders with Christianity, they were terrorizing the young people. This too, the brunt of these two has been felt by the similes. In the 90s, early 90s, 80s and 90s, are not like this. Early 90s, you ask those above 50, what the IM is to do. Leaving aside the question of being able to bring, you're not allowed to play cards, if you caught playing cards, you were made to eat the cards and they would beat you up. You were not allowed to play Karam. Karam, you were beaten up. That was one of the techniques. They terrorized people into submission. Here in Dimbabwe, they took up selective killing of semi, you can call them local heroes, dadas. I personally know of two people. I consider them how they were slightly alert to me. They were my friends. They would kill, not for anything, but just because they happened to be local heroes, just to prove their dominance. And the other was the capturing of organizations, the Naga Ho Ho, the NSF, and they set up the NBHR. And the ultimate was the subversion of the state government. They first tried it in 1998, in the elections. They said that we will bring a solution to why court elections. Now, I don't know what brains the Naga politicians, the opposition had, but Mr. Jamil refused. And Mr. Jamil, it seems he said that I have taken an oath on the Bible to follow the constitution of India. So I cannot think for sure myself. And that is how the Congress had a thing, a landslide victory. There was nothing fishy about that. The IM tried to get everyone to boycott elections. The Congress refused to boycott. That's where the Congress, since they filed, they won. Now, in 2003, this is where the real Tamasha begins. 2003, Rio came. On the one hand, the IM lambasted Mr. Jamil for writing the bedrock of Naga society. On the other hand, Mr. Rio jumped into the IM van wagon, promising a solution between three months. And here we are. 2003, I'm not sure whether we are 27 years, I believe. 27 years down the line, what have we achieved? Oh, sorry, we live with 27 hours here. Anyway, whatever it is. Now, all along, we have been made promises of impending solutions. We have been praying for a solution. I have written multiple times the newspapers. They published some of them. I said, what solution are you praying for? Do you know what solution they're going to bring? And the framework agreement, everybody has something fantastic had been achieved. Then the UNPO, I first, when I heard the UNPO, I thought it was some organ of the United Nations. It's just an NGO, a non-governmental organization. Anyone can be a member of the UNPO. It's not exclusive preserve of NSNIM. So all these, we have been lied to, lied to, lied to. And now again, why is every Naga talking about sovereignty? The word sovereignty never existed in the Naga freedom struggle until the IM. All Naga's view was independence, independence, independence, independence. That is the only word that Naga's view. Sovereignty is a newly coined term. Now we come to the question of, I mean, shared sovereignty. What does it even mean? I'm very fortunate. Mr. Kasey, Kohima Gas Agency, he sent me a WhatsApp message yesterday saying that there's only one nation which shares sovereignty with, I think, New Zealand or Australia. Anyway, it is the island of New and it was independent and he chose to share his sovereignty with, please let me check once again, excuse me, yes, New Zealand. So this island was independent and he chose to share his sovereignty with New Zealand. See, that is the concept of shared sovereignty. When you have sovereignty, when I had it, then I can choose to share or I can choose to share. A person who does not have sovereignty cannot choose to share his sovereignty. So I've explained also the concept, what is independence and what is sovereignty. It's been published in the papers, but nobody seems to bother. And I'm tired of bringing up the same issue. Just when I posted about this webinar yesterday, one word commented saying that there has been many days since we have seen any article of yours. Now I'm one man and I'm writing against multiple organizations, against the government, against NGOs, against, so, but when it comes to repeating myself, all these concerns I've shared before, whether it's shared sovereignty, whether it's framework, whether it's a solution, I think, and especially the constitution, the flag and the constitution, I've written last year. I said, what does a flag mean? It's nothing, it's just simple. Anyone can have a flag. Maybe my village thing, student union, my village, both of us, they have flags. What is so great about having a flag? What matters is the constitution. Now the IEM and the supporters of the IEM are talking about constitution. Now, do the members of the IEM or the supporters of the IEM constitution even know what the IEM constitution is? You tell me, do you know, do you know on what principles the NSCN has been formed? It has been formed on Mao Zedong's communism. Its constitution is there for anyone who has the will to search for it. Now let me read out what the constitution says. Now, constitution, part two, article one, part two deals with the council and government and article one states, one party, one government system in Nagaland. In Nagaland, there's no talk of Nagaland, one party, one government system in Nagaland. So that means the Nagas of Manipur, Assam, Ananshal, they'll be allowed to have them. But in Nagaland, one party, one system of government. And NSCN is the only authentic national council and the GPRN, it's its legitimate government. So that means automatically no choice will have to be, will also have to submit to the authority of the NSCN. Now, this is communist, the communist idea of democracy. You have to belong to the party to be able to pass it, participate in government. If you're not a member of the party, you're nobody. I have written up for this before. I said, can you imagine, they're talking about tribal representation, representation. But even whether you're from any tribe, you will have to be a member of the NSCN IN to become a member. In any, to be eligible for election, to be eligible for selection, to be eligible for appointment. Now, part three, it talks about the legislature and executive. Now, I've written up for this also. Mr. KKCMR, he wrote an article saying powers of the other world. And I waited for two days for the IM to do, write something. And I, after I wrote, and I explained to the people of Nagaland, what it means, the Yaro is the chairman of the council. He has all powers, financial, legislative, judicial, appointment, everything. And again, infrastructure and there's article six. All, all means of distribution, transport and combination will be nationalist. Okay. That seems so simple, but when you talk about the distribution and transportation, when you may have all the products in the world, but if I control the transportation and distribution and your powers, in the oil boom of the US, in the early days of the oil boom, in the United States of America, how did Mr. John the Rockefeller become the richest man in the world? Not because he had the most oil, but because he controlled, he managed to talk the railways into giving him a concession and he controlled the distribution of oil. That is why he became rich. So when you talk about controlling the distribution and the transportation of goods, that means you're essentially you're the whole market, the whole economy is in your hands. Now, that is one part of communication, which is there. So communication also comes in. You will not even be allowed to talk on your phone or via internet without a permission. Anyway, Part B talks about religious organizations. And now here I want, I'm hoping that there's some members of the NPCC who will get this message. It's a very thing. Christianity will be the state religion, but there will be no forced conversions. Okay. That is acceptable. Now, what is, for me, I'm a religious man. I don't care. I'm a religious man, but I don't believe in organized religion. So for the vast majority of Nagas, all churches shall function under the umbrella of the council of Navaland churches. You know what that means? And here again, you see the success in the media, whether social or print, they talk about nagaling, nagaling, but on paper, everything is nagaling, nagaling, nagaling, even the framework agreement, everything is nagaling. What is this? Who are they fooling? I mean, not who are they fooling. Why are you being fooled? Anyway, so that essentially it means that the NPCC will no longer function. And then the council of Nagaland churches will control everything. Now we have seen this in the former Union of Socialist Republics, Russia, the Communist Russia. The Russian Orthodox Church was completely under control of the state. They appointed the priests, they transferred the priests, they did what they want. And the priests had to report to them of what their thing, obligation within members of Congressional is happening in China. China also Christianity flushes, flourishes, but the controlled churches. And you have this underground, the real believers are driven underground. We have to worship in secret. You hunger for bibles. So this is the Christianity they got to know. Now the economic system, part five, Article one, all land and forests that may be made mentioned by the government shall be nationalized. Now you mark the real manner of the wording, all land and forests that may be mentioned by the government shall be nationalized. What it means is that anything that the government wants, it will take, it will nationalize, they will mention it. It will be made mentioned, means they will name it and it becomes theirs. All land and forests. Article two, they shall be a ceiling on private ownership of land as may be stipulated by law. Now what is that ceiling going to be? They will pass a law saying that you cannot own land in excess of 10 square feet, in excess of 100 square feet. That means only land, the rest of the land, no matter how many thousand acres you have, all the rest belongs to them. You know what that means? Constitution, talking about constitution. Then Article three, talks of mineral resources. All minerals shall be nationalized. That means anything from underground is theirs. Article four, all the big rivers and lakes made mentioned by the government shall be nationalized. Here again, they reserve the right to take anything, any river, any lake. Article five, industries, all major means of production and industries shall be nationalized until such time as deemed necessary. So they will take away all your means of production and industry for as long as they think, as long as they want. This is the constitution. Now there is a block of the competency clauses. Now I am not sure of what is contained there, but I do have a copy of, I think, 30 or 40 articles. It's been with me for, I think four or five years now, which I am published in the Nagaland Times. One of the clauses, number four, states that cultivation, manufacture and sale for export of opium will be allowed. So essentially Nagaland is going to become a drug producer. We are going to sustain ourselves on the drug industry for export. Where do you think all the heroin in India is coming from? It is coming from the legitimate thing, opium fields, which the government has licensed to produce a thing. What do you call it? Opium derivatives are heroin and morphine, for the morphine industry. Now, number 27 and 28, here's what I want you to know. They have no, the NSN, I am, they know that they do not have the support of the government people of Manipur. I have argued with the young people of Manipur for many years now. Once I asked one young man, how many times have you called a bond in favor of integration? It's zero times. I told him, you call bonds for every small matter. A truck runs over your dog, you call for a bond. Now, just before yesterday, an alleged I.M. Carter was arrested by the army and then Mao Kedde was a bond. So I commented, strange Manipuris, for one I.M. Carter, you call a bond and for integration, nothing. All he could say, although he did not verify it, that they held one really for integration. So the I.M., they know very well that the government people of now Manipur are not in favor of integration, but they have been terrorized into science. The I.M. does not speak for the people of Nagas of Manipur any more than they speak for the Nagas of Nagalaya. They are a self-serving, self-perpetuating body. And this is evident in the clause 27. They demanding for Nagaland state their solution envisages, grant of 20 members, meaning upper house, plus two lower members, increased from one. And it seems they are not aware that Nagaland has a single I.M. already have, we have a Raja Sabha seat. So they are going to demand for one Raja Sabha seat. And clearly they say, Manipur Hill area delimitation to 30 seats from the present 26 seats. So they, a long time back, they had no intention of integration. Their constitution is unacceptable to anyone from any modern democratic nation in the world. Maybe no Koreans may accept it, but even China will no longer accept this. This is the constitution they want for us. This is what they plan for us. So are you willing to fight for this? The Naga journey, we are just starting our story. Before we have started crawling, we are talking about flying. Before we have started standing up, we are tripping each other. Nagaland is the experiment for Navas. Look at us. Shameless people, primitive people. We, the little people, the arrogant people are the ones who are exploiting our less fortunate brothers. It is not India. Don't blame India. India has done more than enough to oppose its past mistakes. Right now, it is we ourselves. We are fooling ourselves. We are destroying ourselves. And we have people, educated people who are pushing the agenda. We have people who are actively working to suppress our own people, to fool our own people, to mislead our people so that we can continue to keep on exploiting them, taking away the rights, the privileges. It is very shameful on our parts. So don't talk about the solution. Don't talk about the constitution when you don't know what a constitution means. Don't talk about laws when you don't know how to follow basic laws. What is better than the constitution of India? Which constitutional Naga, which Naga constitutional expert can prepare a constitution which is better than what the constitution of India opposes? I requested Dr. Haneruddin to invite members of the Naga Ho Ho, NSF, Naga Modest Association, and BNHR. I wanted to have a debate. I do like lecturing like this. I would very much prefer a debate. Anyway, thank you so much for your patience in this thing. I hope I have not been confusing on any issue. But if there are any questions, please feel free to ask them. Thank you. Thank you so much, sir, for giving us in-depth analysis of the different aspects of the Naga movement and the Naga issue, and perhaps the discussion that galvanized everyone of us. Touching upon, you have tactfully touched upon all the contentious issues also, and then the conclusion that you have given out for everyone of us that the Naga's are to be blamed for the present situations. That is perhaps a very big take, what we call taking points from our level speaker. Thank you very much for taking everyone of us into a very deep insight of the Naga issues, which appears to be for everybody now as a simple issue of India understanding Naga's, and that Naga's are understanding India's position also, and that we are all yearning for a kind of solution for peaceful coexistence. But apart from that, beyond that, we have so much to learn, so much to talk about, and sir, you have tactfully discussed all the important issues which can perhaps lead us to have better light as we move along. So now I would like to open up the floor for Q&A session, and right now I have checked the chat box and then nobody have put up, put out the question, but I would request any participant who would like to just put forward a question to be answered by or clarified by our honorable speaker. Sir, you can kindly unmute your microphone, even you can use your video, you can turn on your video also, and then kindly, you know, make a brief question to our speaker. Now I open the floor for Q&A session. If you have any questions, I mean, you're spraying away from what I've said about what you think we should do, please feel free to put them up. So I think I've got a question from my friend, Mikhail. Yes, sir, can I raise up the question for you, sir? Yeah, he's asking that Mr. Mahatma Gandhi really say that the Navas have the right to be free. Right, right, sir. That is a fact. Okay. He did say that. You can unmute your speaker, Nikhil. It is a fact that Mr. Gandhi said, Navas have the right to be independent. In fact, in my opinion, if Mr. Niharu had not been so inconsequential, he would have been a better solution. I mean, he would have been a better alternative to what that took place, subsequently, because there were many national leaders of the time. Mr. Jayaprakash Narayan also was very actively involved in the Naga peace process. But Mr. Niharu also, I think his arrogance had a long great deal. His arrogance also took a very important part in the escalation of the conflict between India and the Navas. Okay, any other participant? You can kindly unmute your microphone and just put forward your questions. And sir is ready to take one of the questions and that is a very, very big blessing for us. Okay, sir, as we wait for other participants to take shape or making the questions ready, I would like to just ask one question from my side. Sir, as we all are talking about this final quote, demanding every part of the society or Naga areas, we are now, whether we understand the reality or not, we started getting to know that after the framework agreement that was signed on August 9, 2015, we all are made to understand that the peace talk is moving towards the conclusion. So, sir, I just want to ask about that. How soon should we move towards signing that final Naga peace accord, according to you? Because you have already discussed, you have mentioned about the internal problems that we face within the Naga society. And then now, everywhere we are talking about even not even not only the Naga, but also those people who are inclined for the Naga course, they are yearning for peace to return to the region. So, how soon do you think the Naga peace accord should be signed by the Naga? Okay, doctor. See, I have no idea of what the seven enemies are asking for. And in fact, I may have offended them when I recently said that they have no idea about Italy. Anyway, with that as it may, the government of India has repeatedly said that, see, according to what I gather, okay, I use sources, some sources of information, but I try to reason to rationalize, to use logic. So, last year, the October 21st deadline, in my opinion, it was set for the NSN-IM and the six NNPGs at that time to put forward their proposals. Because all along there was all talk talk, but as far as I know, the IM had never even put forward one definite demand or suggestion. So, the October 21st deadline was for that. Now, I hear that the six NNPGs, they submitted a proposal. Now, whether that was the final proposal or not, I don't know, but now this September, the central government is talking about September. Now, what I believe is, see, the Indians are not fools. They are way better educated than us. They have much more experience than us. And see, I don't like to generalize, but it is because of the fanatics in the RSS and the JPA, otherwise, Hinduism is a very good religion, very tolerant, very understanding. They accommodate people. So, I believe that they will definitely put some proposals before the public. Now, whether they are IM or the seven NNPGs signed or not, they are going to put those proposals. And then it is for us, the people, now the framework agreement also states, it does not state that the sovereignty lies with the INS and IM. It says with the people. So, in my opinion, the sensible thing for Indian government will be to bring the proposals to the people who hold the power to decide. The people, if they have seen the proposals of either the IM or the NNPGs, they should put it before the court of public opinion. We are not so stupid that we cannot decide what is in our best interest and what is against our interests. So, it's not a question of we must sign it now or we should keep on the extending it. But we are sick of the extortion. See, they are very offended when our governor, Mr. Ravi, called them armed Chinese extortionists. But what do you call them? Do freedom fighters go around carrying guns, not to fight with our oppressors, but to extort from us? They have become oppressors. The very definition of an armed gang means a group of people armed. When someone takes money forcibly from you, what do you call him? You call him an extortionist. So, what was wrong with Mr. Ravi's description? Why everybody was so upset? IM, NNPGs, NSMK also from Myanmar, they also wrote against it. You said the language. If it is true, I think one question came up, but I'm not very sure. Okay, sir. Let me read out the question for you. Perhaps today's session is an eye-opener. If I really mean it, and then I hope that, you know, like me, other participants are also easily benefited by our talks today by our own speaker. So, I have one more question for you. And after that, I also want to invite one more question from a participant before we actually wind up a session. I want to just after sir take this question forward, then I would like to just send out a feedback link for everyone of you to kindly fill up the feedback link. So, the question is sir, what is the way forward for the Nagas? Okay, what is the way forward for the Nagas in our pursuance to be an independent Naga nation? Whether we are to abandon this political story or to continue? So, this is a very important question for the Naga point of reason. Okay, the way forward. What is the way forward? What is necessary for Nagas to ever become an independent nation? There's only one condition we need to fulfill. Only one condition. That is the only condition. We must understand the purpose of laws. We must understand that everybody is subject to the same laws. That is the only way we can build a nation, because a nation is built on laws. When you do not understand the value of laws, when you keep breaking the laws, then you cannot have a nation. So, first, before talking about political independence, let us talk about do we understand and do we follow laws? Before talking about political independence, let us talk about economic independence. What do we produce? Can we feed ourselves? Forget about high-end products, luxury goods. Just food. Can we feed ourselves? We cannot talk about utopian dreams of nationhood, patriotism, when we do not have food to fill our bellies. Look at our less fortunate brothers in Myanmar. Every year, they go through cycles of salvation. Every year, without fail. Here in India, do we? The only people who are deprived are those who are being deprived by us, not by the government of India. So, let us first learn to exist as a society before we can talk of a nation. We have to understand that the law applies to everyone, my family, my villager, my clan, my tribe. But our attitude is, laws are only for other families, other villages, other clans, other tribes. It does not apply to me. If I am in power, I will break every law so long as I can take conditions. This is the only way forward for us. Until that day arrives, no matter how many agreements, how many solutions we have with the government of India. If I were in a decision-making power in India, I would grant Nagar's conditional independence. Five years. Okay. Rule yourself for five years. And we will like the thing. Nine point agreement. Rule yourself for five years. And we will discuss the issue after five years. We will go crying, begging for India to take us back. We will be willing to forego all our special statuses. So, understand that. We are like spoiled brats. We are talking about running away from our parents' home. When we don't have money to feed ourselves, for example, when we don't have a place to sleep. So, only when we understand that we are all subject to the same laws, that everybody must follow the law, then we can hope to build a society where tribalism becomes secondary, where clans become secondary, where the interests of my village is subverted to the interests of the larger one. Then we can talk. Then we can say that we have made some progress. Then we can see the way forward, whether we should opt for independence or whether we should opt for the present relationship with India. As long as we don't understand what laws are for, there is no way forward for us. I hope that answers Yes, thank you so much sir. As I just scroll down, I could see some of the few questions still given out by our young participants, I believe. I assume most of them are very young, I think, young Nagas and they are very concerned, you know, Nagas. So, I feel that I will over them also. And I request you to bear with us also. A few questions because I think some of the questions that our young participants or our participants put forward are like, for example, there are many organizations that came into existence already and then they talk about issues, they think their own views. So, many youths are confused with different theories and, you know, with different viewpoints that many organizations are putting forward, putting out to the public domain. So, which theory would be better for the Nagayud and that is one by Jesse Naga. Which theory? Which narrative? Which theory or viewpoints of many organizations or Naga issues? Which theory or viewpoints could be the better one to be picked up? Which point to pick up? I don't know the question actually. Actually, the question is that there are many organizations or Naga issues, you know. These organizations are stating their own views about the Naga issues. So, which issue young, you know, youth talk today in Naga societies should be picking up? Okay. So, see, when you are faced with multiple crisis, multiple avenues, then you have to use your reasoning. You have to use your education. Now, as I said before, we have to understand the rule of law. Any society, whether it is a liberal, progressive, repressive, dictatorial society, every society is based on laws. Now, we Nagas are reprimanded people. Keep that in mind. We have lived in villages. We have just entered the modern world in one or two generations. So, our royalties, our ethics, our morals are only connected with our villages. So, within our village, we have very disciplined, very obedient, very law abiding. But once we move out from the villages, once we come into contact with other people, we break laws, carry on immoral lives, unethical lives, as long as we can get away with it. Because we feel that our obligation is only towards our fellow villagers or maybe to our clan or maybe to our tribe. Look at what is happening in Nagaland. This is the classic case of Nagas gone wrong. Look at all our educated Nagas, all the IS officers, IPS officers, NPS officers, NCS officers, look at our ingenious doctors. All of them are breaking the law. What sort of society do you hope to build? What sort of nation do you aspire for? When you're educated, when those in power are breaking the laws, the very laws which put them in the seats of power. So, I always say, let more organizations come up. Let multiple organizations come up until we learn to select what is good and what is bad. Because you may bemoan the fact that there are thousands of organizations in Nagaland but until one of them functions properly, people will never be able to decide which is the best one, which is good, which is bad. Let there be multiple political parties. There's no one way out because the only way out, only right theory, only right organization, only right political party will be the one which is honest, which follows the law, which follows rules and so far there's no such organization, whether overground or underground. So, what can we do about it? There's no choice for you. I'm repeating, pretty young people. You have been left without any thing, role models. You have to understand that there's a difference between personal achievement and contribution to society. Nagas have many distinguished people who have achieved personal distinction but we have hardly any who have ever contributed to Nagas society. There's a difference. Yes, because one person becomes an IS or an IDS officer, it doesn't mean he contributes to society. It is when he uses his office to help the poor, the unfortunate, to do seeking justice, then only is he contributing to society. Obviously, he's just an employee. He's just like any trokidara peon, running his pay. So, there's no choice. Don't fool anyone. Many people come to visit me. I said, don't believe Nagas. Don't even believe me either. Don't believe me also. You reserve your judgment but we are so impatient that we follow anyone. We jump on every bandwagon. So, have patience. What Nagas must learn is the patience to observe things and then to make judgments and follow people or organizations. Thank you so much, sir. I think once again, I learned another point from you that this session is really a self-examination as a Nagas session and it is really enriching. Before we end our session by giving you to give very few concluding lines, words from you. Along with that, can you just take these two questions from, I think I believe these questions are from the students, I believe, that what is the extent of the book, the significance of the book Nagas Saga written by K.K. Iralu when he taught so much? No, I have not read that. Okay, then what about from your side one or two books that the young Nagas must read to know about the Nagas story better? I cannot suggest any one such book because all books have different perspectives. So, my suggestion is you read as many of them as possible and don't form the opinion based on only one book. Read as many as you can, try to get all of them into context into sequence and then omit judgments. I cannot recommend any single book. I'm so sorry but that is all I have to say. I mean that's all I can say about reading books and one thing is listen to elders but don't believe everything they say because we have a tendency to puff up old achievements and to demigrate the achievements of others. So, read as many of them, many Nagas books as you can and be patient, read them, understand them and then omit judgments. So, I think with that I'll conclude or are there any more questions? Dr. Aniruddha, anything? It seems Dr. Rangmay is having some internet issue. So, let us compute this program sir. And on behalf of Exo College, on behalf of Department of Political Science, on behalf of my colleague and the moderator and facilitator of this program, Professor Rangmay, thank you sir. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you all the viewers for taking time out for being patient and listening to what I have to say. I hope that we all benefit from this session and may God bless you all. Thank you. Thank you sir. Thank you so much. Thank you every one.