 Hello everyone and welcome to Inside Leather History, a fireside chat. I'm Doug O'Keefe and I produce these chats with Mistress Joanne Gatti. Every once in a while we do a slightly different chat and today I'm doing a chat in Amsterdam with Mario Delott. You may notice behind us that we have a wonderful image of the village people and boy didn't everyone love the village people. Mario has a very unique story that he's going to share with us today. Mario was very dear friends with Glen Hughes, the Leatherman, and he's depicted right here behind us. So I'm going to start off a little bit here. We'll talk a little bit about Mario and what brought him to knowing Glen Hughes. Then we'll talk about Glenn and some of the work that Mario's doing. So Mario, let's start off right now. Tell us a little bit about your childhood. It was very difficult for you. I've been born, I was born in 1951, born out of wedlock, been raised in a children's home, so to speak, orphanage. Came home when I was nine, 10 years old. Left my home when I was 18 and doing the things that I had to do. Met my husband in 1975. But before that I was already doing my things in clubs like discotex and so on. And I was involved in music, especially dance music. So I was living my life, so to speak. So in 1977, it go very fast when I heard this music in discotex at that time, I was totally flabbergasted. And then I heard these songs of a band called The Village People. There was no picture of it, I just heard it, music of it, San Francisco in Hollywood, Macho Man, and it was fascinating for me that all the gay ingredients, but I could not relate to whatever it was, I could only relate to the music. There was no real picture of the group. So that's how it really started when I started to be interested in a group called Village People. That's how it started. But taking a step back, you indicated that when you stayed in the orphanage, that taught you some very useful disciplines that you were able to apply to your work now. Tell us a little bit about that. In the orphanage, it was taught, don't moan, do the things you have to do and don't talk about it, this is the way it is, and don't think about it. It was very sad in a way, but when I grew older, I took it as an advantage in order to do something or to gain something. I still use it today. Don't moan about it, this is what you have to do and that's the goal. It works in some way. So here I am, and that's what I did. You alluded to music being very comforting to you and you even said that you mentioned Billie Holiday's Lady and Sadness being very, very important to you. Why is that? Tell us a little bit. Okay, okay, now I really have to tell the real story. I was brought up in the orphanage without any love. There was no comfort, there was absolutely nothing. So when I got home at 10, I didn't know who my father was, I didn't know who my mother was. I was brought up actually by nuns. But you have to find out things yourself. At first you hear music and okay, you like it. But the first album I brought, no, the first music I listened, I was able to listen to was Billie Holiday. I didn't know who the singer was. At first I thought it was a man because of Billie. Billie is the guy's name. But then I heard a voice, Billie Holiday, and Strange Food, that was the very first song. And when I was 16 years old, I bought the album Lady and Satan, and that was my first final record that I bought for the prize of 19 guilders and 90s, which was a huge amount of money. But I could afford it because I was working at clubs when I was 14, 15 years old. So I had money in order to buy vinyl. But Billie Holiday's Lady and Satan was my first fourth album. That's how it all started with music and being comforted by the lyrics that Billie Holiday sang. I could relate to it more or less. What lyrics does the song contain that are so precious to you? About love, about man. You have to remember I was raised in the orphanage and I was, you know, you are not brought up with love, you know, you are brought up with surviving. And I, so, but I knew that I was attracted to men when I was 13, 14 years, but not to boys my age, but to men, elderly men, not elderly men, but, you know, men of 24, 25, older, you know. When you are 14, you know, these are men, you know. So that's what happened. So I had my first sexual relationship, my contact with a guy who was 24, 25. And that didn't work out. So when I heard Billie's songs, I said, okay, I can relate to that as young as I was. What other music of Billie Holiday resonates with you? My man. I wanted to be hit by a man, but it never happened. So, you know, I was very dramatic. I wanted to be loved by a man, and it never happened at a time. I just want to be loved because I had no love. So I did everything in order to get love or to be in love, and that was difficult. What other music has had such an impact upon you? Pardon? What other music has had a similar impact upon you? The music, most of the time it comforted me. I could relate to the lyrics, so to speak, but also could relate to the voices. Mainly I listened to female voices. Now it's a different story. The only male voice I could relate to was Johnny Mathis. I like Johnny Mathis, so, you know, I started to buy albums of Johnny Mathis at that time. And next to that, I was young, so I wanted to have good times. So I was totally mesmerized by the Motown sound. And being gay, of course, I love the Supremes and the Motoweeves and the Fondellas and the Marvelettes and all these wonderful ladies that could identify with all these groups. I was, you know, this is what it was. And that helped me in order to become who I am. But you've seen yourself as androgynous. How do you mean? I was a boy, but I was very skinny. I was very hairy, and I was very feminine, and I was not feminine as people thought. I was just who I was. I was not over the top, but still I was over the top. But it was totally myself, you know. I was totally myself, and I never excused myself for that. My mother told me that. You know, I've been bullied many, many times when I was 15, 16 years old. But my mother always said, me never excuse your lifestyle, so to speak. So I never did. But I had a very low self-esteem. I have to admit that. I didn't eat. I was very, very skinny. Being fat wasn't sin. So there was no fat in my dictionary, so to speak. So I always wore black, had very long hair. I curled my hair. And I was hairy. I was totally hairy. I was, you know, like this. I'm still very hairy. So, but I was skinny. So I wore black clothes, black pants, black t-shirts, long t-shirts. And as skinny as possible. But coming back to the music scene here in Amsterdam at the time that you discovered the village people in the 1970s, tell us a little bit about the gay scene here in Amsterdam at that time. What clubs were available? What kinds of things did you do? Oh, I never participated in the gay clips in Amsterdam, so to speak. I was then involved. I was then had a relationship with my husband, and we worked our asses off with the photo industry. And he was a musician. So we were both involved in that aspect of life. We were making money. We were traveling around. And that's basically it. And because we were both involved in the music industry, I started to discover disco music. And when we went to clubs, it was like, you know, we went to the IT Club and to other places. And that's basically it. I went to clubs in order to dance. I didn't need any other men because I had a man. I just danced my asses off. So that's what I did. And I was not involved with other men or I had my own man. What sort of music was very popular here in Amsterdam at that time? Disco music because I was only related to disco music at that time. And you mean about the 70s? Well, what stars were famous here that were also famous, for example, in England or the US? I have no idea. I have to tell you, I was not into pop music. I was into Billie Holiday, Nancy Wilson. Diane was in the Supreme's Motown and American Songbook. Oh, OK. And I was not involved in pop music, like Queen or it's OK. I couldn't be bothered. All right, thanks. But what about stars like Gloria Gaynor? That's disco. I love disco. That's what I'm saying. Tell me more about the disco people, the disco names you knew, Yvonne Elliman, for example. Oh, I was living in the country when I was, let's say, 20. And Gloria Gaynor came by. But I never can say goodbye. So I went to all these disco clips in the Southern part of the Netherlands where I lived. So I spent my days in disco clips all over the Southern part of the Netherlands because I lived there. So yeah, Vicky Sue Robinson of Gloria Gaynor, the trams, you name it. And then suddenly you heard a song like Village People or San Francisco in Hollywood. Everybody is a star. So I could relate to that as well, you know, lyric wise. And the beat, I loved the beat of the disco song. It was the best. I was not involved in all the things. Just the beat, just let's move it. And it was a good exercise to stay skinny, you know. Take us to 1980 when you met Glenn Hughes, the leather man in the Village People. Oh, OK. I met the Village People on April the 17th in New York at the Sigma Sound Studios. Before that, I already was involved more or less with the group. I became or I proclaimed myself as president of the Dutch Village People Fan Club. So I put together this kind of a fan club magazine of a few pages. And I always sent it to the company in New York. And I always got mail back. So I'd say, thank you for your good work. Keep up the good work. So in 1980, I traveled to New York and I more or less announced myself, OK, I'm coming. You know, I really want to meet you guys. So I went to the office. And I was greeted very nicely by the producers, Chapmar and Henry Balolo. They were very, very nice to me. And then they offered me, well, why don't you go with us to the Sigma Sound Studios where the group is? They are recording the music for Can't Stop the Music. So I said, OK, very happy, of course. I went there. And I got introduced by the producers to the group. And they were all very, very cool and friendly. And also to Glenn Michael Hughes, of course. And what I did was, I had for each member, I had a question list. And each member had to fill in a list of 10 questions. So I had 60 answers. And I'm more or less demanded it, so to speak. And they were impressed by that. So that was a good sign. And after we met in the studios, the road manager, we said, you know, ask me, why don't you join us to have some lunch at a Thai restaurant somewhere on Broadway? And I said, yes, OK, I will do that. So, you know, I went with them to a Thai restaurant. And it was very nice, very OK. I was tense. I was a fan. I was not a friend. I was just a fan. So when we said goodbye, Glenn Michael, he said to me, keep writing. And I thought by myself, sure. Anyway. So I wrote him a letter. Thank you for everything. But I wrote to all members of that. You know, and also to the people. Thank you for being so nice to me. But he was the one who replied me. And from that on, it really started to develop some kind of friendship, so to speak. Or, you know, you got to know each other a little bit better. That's how it really started. April 17, 1980. What were your impressions of the various members of the village people? There you obviously there were six people. Tell me a little bit about each one of them. What's what stays in your mind? What stays in my mind is that they were very cool. Cool. They were OK. They had no so to speak. They were very, very nice. And they were relaxing. And that's what I liked. They were like you and I, you know. They had no, they were not arrogant. That's what I liked about them. And they were surprised that I knew so much about disco music. Not even about them, but about other people, you know. So it was my enthusiasm. And they were very nice to me, absolutely. And the producer itself, a producer like Jacques, he was very kind to me. Very, very kind to me, so to speak. But I rejected that. So, yeah, I just wanted to be, I just wanted to get in touch with the group in order to make my club bigger. That was the main thing, so to speak. I had no other intention in order to. No, no, no. How were the village people formed? The village people were formed by Jacques Morali. They were put together by Can't Stop Predictions, by an ad. And, you know, they had to apply. And they all did auditions. Victor Willis was then the lead singer. He was already into the group. And Alex Bryde was a friend of Victor Willis, the soldier. And they needed more, four more characters in order to form a band. And Glenn was one of them. And he was a talk collector at the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel. The Brooklyn Battery Tunnel. Brooklyn Battery Tunnel. Exactly. And, you know, they saw him. He had this, you know, this attitude and this mustache. And he was just in. And that's how it all started with them. And Wendy, the cowboy, and David was on Broadway. Wendy was on Broadway, so he all needed a job. And, you know, we have to find a job in order to support ourselves. That's how it really started. And Philippe was, Philippe the Indian was already involved in the project Village People with Jacques Morali and Henry Balolo with the very first album Village People. So Glenn went from being a talk collector to being in a singing group. How was his persona developed? He was the son of a policeman. And his model was a former tap dancer in the circus. His grandmother was a trapeze artist in Barnes and Bailey. So, and they lived in Bethpage on Long Island. And he was, you know, blue collar family person. But he always wanted to be in show business. His mother was in show business. His grandmother was in show business. So he was, he wanted to be in show business. So he, he went to Ed and, you know, more or less did his thing and did the audition for Village People. And as far as I know, what he told me, that was his life. He always wanted to be in show business. He auditioned and he did two songs from the musical Hair. Where Do I Go? And Let the Sunshine In, I believe. No, Aquaria, sorry, Aquaria. And he was okay. Did he have to sing these acapella to the producers? Yes, he had to do acapellas. Just a bar, so to speak. But also because of his looks, you know, he had this, this, this masculine look. And the day, and the producers wanted to have a leather, a leather man, you know, that can apply into, you know, with all the different characters. And he was the perfect guy for it. Why so? Of his looks and his attitude. He was very handsome. He was very, you know, the producer himself, Jacques, was gay, was a gay man. So he thought, oh, Glenn is very, very nice. That's okay. So that's also one of the reasons that Glenn was into the world. How did Glenn acquire the image that we see here on screen, his cover, his chains, his leathers, were those things that he already had? No, no, no, no. He was given by the producers an amount of $1,000 and he was sent to Mr. Leather in New York. There's a store in the village. And they said to him, here's your $1,000 and buy yourself some leather so that you can become the leather man of the village people. So he was given a thousand and he spent a thousand and came back with all these leather goods. And he created the leather man from scratch, from zero to, you know, he crystallized more or less over the years the leather man character. And he was very good at it. Absolutely, he, you know, but, you know, he loved it as well. You know, the more he created it, the more he became a part of the character as well as far as I can consider. You know, he loved it. He loved it very much. Village people was his life. Were there various items in his leather closet that he preferred over others? Not in the beginning, I suppose, but later on, he loved his character, but he also loved his gear, so to speak, but it was only on stage. But when the group became bigger and bigger, he also custom made vests, you know, and buckles. Like this buckle, for instance, he wore a lot on times, on stage, and it became also, his nickname was Mr. Eagle, and that's because of this buckle that he wore. We have a photo here. I don't know if the audience can see this very well. It's Glenn wearing a studded vest. You have this vest in your home. Yes, that's correct. And I have to say it's an amazing piece of work. It's truly breathtaking in its complexity and its personality. What about this, can you tell me? This is so iconic. What can you tell me about this vest? Actually, Glenn was very, he was interesting, so to speak. He didn't, he was very down to earth, first of all, but he didn't put any value to the things that he owned. So I was the one, later years, that I took care of the leather, that I took care of this vest because it was totally damaged and I more or less restored it. He didn't put any attention to it if it was kaput or the nut, doesn't matter. So I fixed it to it, whether it is today. Actually, he owned two and one was given away by his mother to the church because the mother had no idea how valuable the vest was. And I more or less saved the vest because he said, when I'm gone, please take the vest. I said, okay, I'm gonna take care of it. So the same about the buckle. He loved it, but he had no clue how valuable it actually was. He was very, you know, he was not into material things. He was very down to earth. Okay. That was, you know, I like that about him. So tell me how your relationship with Glenn began to evolve. What sorts of things were you able to do with Glenn that, for example, someone special might be able to do? Well, first of all, I was a fan and he started to write me and I responded. You know, you go back and forth in the correspondence. And, but I also started to get bigger and bigger in my so-called dutch fan club of village people. And at a certain point, the company can stop positions, decided that I would become international because of my work, what I was doing for the group. And in 1983, I was invited by the group to come to Las Vegas to see their shows for seven days. So I accepted the invitation. The invitation came actually from Glenn. So I went to Vegas. First two days to New York, blah, blah, blah. And then off to Vegas. And they had an engagement at Riviera Hotel in the Versailles Room, a capacity of 800 people, twice as two shows a night. So I remember when I came by taxi to the hotel and Glenn and Alex were waiting for me outside the hotel. And, you know, I was kind of nervous. I've never been to Vegas before. I was to New York, okay. But Vegas totally knew to me. Anyway, they picked me up from the hotel, blah, blah, blah. And Glenn said to me, come to my apartment, to my suite, so to speak. And I said, okay. And, you know, he was very okay. And suddenly he said to me, why don't you come sit next to me on the bed? And then he put his hand on my lap and said, I'm so happy that you're here. And I thought, oh, okay, what's going to happen right now? And then he really looked me deep into the eyes and said, if it wasn't for you, I would jump out of the building right now. And I remember, and I remember saying to him, well, before you jump out of the building, let me do the shopping first. And, you know, I thought it was not funny to say, but it came out of my mouth. He started to laugh so loud, so loud, he couldn't stop laughing. And then I think because of my answer that really gave us a click, that gives a bond, you know. And then I realized that he was very depressive. I was depressive at that time as well because I was in a seven-year itch with the man I was living with. So, you know, we were, you know, we were there. And then he said, okay, I'm gonna take care of you these coming days. Don't you worry, I'll show you wherever you have to go. And he said, I want you to be in the show room five days here, five shows here and five shows backstage so that you can do your work. And that's what I did. And he took care of me and it was wonderful days. I never saw daylight, I partied all night long and slept through and slept through the day because it was too hot. And midnight show started at 12 and ended at two. I mean, what do you do in Vegas after two, you party. So, you go to bed at four in the morning or five in the morning so you don't get up. And then at four, you know, you eat something and the day starts. It's a total different rhythm. And it was no clock, so. And I was young, you know, I was 32, 33. You mentioned Glenn being depressive. What does that mean? What was going on there? I believe he was depressive of, he had a very low self-esteem as I could. But at that time I didn't know what was going on. The only thing that I know that he could be very depressive. But I found it out later in my relationship with Glenn what really happened. But, you know, at that time he was, you know, when he was on stage, when he was the character, he was okay, he was the best man you could ever be with. But in his private life, he was 180 degrees different. And I started to see that. But I couldn't put my finger on it. I was too young to know. I know that I was depressive at times. So we were two lost souls, so to speak, you know. I never mentioned it to others. Never. No, it was so-called secret between us. But over time, knowing Glenn, what did you come to understand about that? Like I said, he had a very low self-esteem and he was not very happy with the life that he was living. He had everything. He had money, obviously fancy clothes, obviously traveling the world and meeting famous people. Why would he not be happy? I ask him that many times, but I believe people don't have an answer for that. He didn't have an answer for that. He just didn't feel well. Could happen just like that, you know. And in the late, in the mid 90s, when I started to live with him, when I was with him, he became manic depressive. The disease became worse and worse and that was frightening for me as well. But I never blamed him for that. But, you know, it was a disease that more or less developed more and more to that. But on stage, you couldn't even, you didn't notice. At that time in that environment, clearly drugs were a major player, especially in the disco scene and at that time in entertainment history, was this an issue for Glenn? No, he was drug-free, he was drug-free. He only drank champagne, as far as I know, and some wine. But no beer, as far as I know, no drugs. Drugs was a no-no because his father was a very strict cop. And when he was a young kid, his father showed him many times the bad sides of reality. So his father took him in his car and showed him 42nd Street and said, this is the other side of reality. Don't you ever do this? So Glenn was warned, so he never did any drugs. He was very strict, he was very conservative in that. He never tried it. And I never did drugs either. That had to be a challenge because clearly a lot of people in that industry- Oh, it was right there in front of you. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And at times when I was with Glenn, it was even offered to you. Like sex was offered, drugs was offered as well. It was very easy and very attractive, of course, but he never used it. How was Glenn about managing his fortune, for example? His father took care of that. Oh, okay. His father took care of him. So when Glenn passed away, he died as a millionaire. His father was the businessman. He was very taken care of of Glenn as well as the other members of the village people. He took care of the finances of village people. He did. That had to be quite something for a blue-collar cop in suburban New York City having a son in a basically gay iconic situation. How did his family cope with Glenn's circumstances and the others? That was very funny. I still believe still today Glenn was in show business and they loved it and they never brought up the gay aspect of Glenn. Never, ever, never, ever have I heard his father say to me that his son was gay nor his mother. They were just very proud of their son. Did Glenn ever bring a boyfriend home? Yes, but it was never mentioned as a boyfriend. The carpenter, let me put it that way. No, it was never mentioned. The word gay was never mentioned, not even when I was there. I was his friend from the Netherlands, Amsterdam. No, homosexuality was a no, no, I believe, according to his father. His mother was more flexible, I have to say that. Mother was very religious, okay. But his father was very, very strict and very conservative. I, in 1986, I was introduced to his father at his place in Bethpage and the first thing that Glenn said to me was, if you're gonna meet my father, don't even mention religion and that you're gay and blah, blah, blah. So I was there in five minutes and religion was already on the table and being gay wasn't anyway. Was it good or bad that this was the case? His father was shocked by my, because I'm from Europe, I'm from the Netherlands. So, hey, being gay is not an issue for me. Religion, hey, you can discuss religion. So he was shocked, but still I was a good friend of Glenn according to Patrick, his father. I went along with Patrick because I knew where he came from. I never judged his father. This is what he is. He had his own demons too, to deal with. That's why I always thought, always said to Glenn, please don't hate your father. He's a victim of whatever. That's very progressive. Always think like that. But how did Glenn manage to balance his religious convictions with the circumstances he was in with the village people? Glenn was raised Catholic, yes? Yes, Roman Catholic. How did he cope with that religious element to his life? No, that was no issue. He abandoned his religion's background totally. He didn't believe in that. That no value for him. He was more into, Lucerne, atheism. Yes, atheism. That's very, it's a big step. For him, probably. He had many conflicts with his father. His father was a very strict religious man, Patrick. His mother was, you know, the most sweetest woman and angel in the house, taking care of her boy, so to speak, of her husband and her son. And later, the boyfriend from Amsterdam, taking care of her boys. That's what she always said. Dolores was a sweetheart, still is. We spoke a moment ago about the drug scene in the entertainment industry and the recording industry at that time. What about sex? Clearly, you've got six iconic-looking men who represent numerous elements of the gay community. There had to be tons of boys and men throwing themselves at these guys. How did Glenn and the others manage that? Oh, that was very funny. I never participated in it, please. I was very shy. Anyway, so I didn't do that. I had my reasons for that. But Glenn, you know, Glenn stayed in the character of village people, the latter men, so it was presented to him in a silver plate. And he took care of that. And everybody did, except for a few from the group. And I've seen that happen. I always kept my mouth shut, of course. You don't talk about like that. You don't go into public. You don't do that, you know? It's a code. You don't talk about it. But I've seen it happen, of course. And men were ridiculous stupid. And yeah, and they, you know, Glenn was just presenting a character, so to speak. But there were these guys who really thought he was the real character in real life. And he wasn't like that. It was his job, so to speak. So. Well, tell us about real life. If Glenn were just a regular person, what sort of things did he like? Or what things did he do? When I was with Glenn, we watched TV shows like Touch With An Angel, and we stopped together, so to speak, you know? We went out for shopping. We went out to record stores. We did our shopping, you know? And we watched TV. That's basically it. And he cooked for me, and I cooked for him. And I was no heavy duty leather scene at all, as far as I know. As far as I've experienced it. But when he was into his character on stage, it was a different agenda and a different person. And I could totally understand it because it was the way he was. He was like Jacqueline Hyde at times. And that also had to do with his depressions. He could be Jacqueline Hyde at the same time. And that was not a nice side of a beautiful side of Glenn Michael Hughes. And I could relate to it more or less because I recognized it more or less. But it was very, very sad at times. So on stage and off stage, when he was still in the character, he was the best leatherman you could ever imagine. When he was out of the leatherman character, he was the best friend you could ever have. I have the most wonderful times with him. When I visited your home, and I saw, for example, the vest that we mentioned earlier. Yes. Seeing that and seeing some other things that Glenn's that you have, Glenn was physically very small. He was. He hated sports. And that was surprising to me. Well, at that time, it was not really necessary to do sports. You have to remember, this is the 70s, the 80s. So today it's a total different story. You have to be masculine in order. And at those days, it didn't really matter. Plus, he was covered in leather. Yes, yes, yes. Who cares? So Glenn really has the image here. I mean, we can see he's got his cover. He's got his shades. The the mustache alone, I think a lot of men would love to be able to have that. I've tried growing my mustache like that. I can't quite get it to the same volume that Glenn has here. So another iconic image of Glenn here. This is where I really think Glenn is the most attractive is when he's like dressed like this. That's when he really shows sort of that badass element, I guess. Pardon? The badass element. Yes, it could be. Yeah. He could be like that to me as well. He could be very, very badass. Yeah. If you love a man, you love a man. That's basically it. And we've got a picture of Glenn here, the center of the group of the village people. The disco group of the village people. Yes, yes. There's an interesting bit to this as we as we explore Glenn and the rest of the people in the group. They originally, were they not simply to be performers? And then there was some arrangement made for them to actually record the music? That's just... Say that again. They actually recorded. And that's, of course, where the money came from and their fortunes came from where the, because their actual voices were recorded. That was the very first group. And the producers had to find the characters because the first group was very successful. But the first album was recorded by studio singles. Yeah. And the group was not even formed. So that's why the second album, Much A Man Was Produced, and then you came in Glenn, Randy, and your other members. So then the group became a face, you know. I see. And that's how it was. That's how it worked. Yeah. There's Glenn again in his another iconic look here. Yes. Yeah. This is a very famous photo, but you can actually see his waistline. I don't think I've seen a waistline on myself like that in 40 years. This is taken in 1998, two days before, not two days, two years before he passed away. Yeah. Let's explore that a little bit. Tell us about Glenn's health. It deteriorated toward the end there. Tell us what was happening with Glenn. Glenn lived a, I do say, lived an easy lifestyle, so to speak. And in 1980, after we met in Vegas, our friendship became very close, so to speak. So we were, we started to be friends, you know, and he explained me very explicit things about his sexual life and things like that. And in 1986, he, I got a phone call from London, and it was Glenn saying that he was not doing very well and that he was HIV. And I was, I'm all as expected that, but I was so fucking angry. So I hang up the phone. And I was angry about the fact that he was only, that he only had five years to live, and our friendship would end within five years. So I didn't judge him. I was just pissed off by him anyway. So after a few minutes, he called me back and he said, are you going to leave me? I said, no, I'm not going to leave you. I'm just fucking angry that you're so stupid to get infected, you know? So, you know, our friendship grew stronger for that. And what do you do? The friendship has, I always call, I always consider friendship as the wave, you know? As the sea, you have up and tired, you have up and tired, you know? So this was, this is what it is, you know? So, okay, this is what it is. It's not my life, it's your life, but if I'm going to have to take care of you, I take care of you. You took care of me, I take care of you. No question. And that's what I did from the day that he told me that he was HIV, but he didn't have full blown AIDS then. That happened years later. So being HIV didn't stop him to perform with a group or doing good things. Nobody knew it, so hey, you know? But he was diagnosed, that's true. But for me it was no issue. As Glenn's health deteriorated, what were you able to do for him? Help him, and listen to him. And one of the, when he was very, very sick, he, I was living with him in New York. And what I still remember is what he said, AIDS gave me all the freedom I needed in the world. And I couldn't relate to that. What the fuck are you saying to me? But now I understand. I'm older now, you know? But that, you know, he taught me a lot about life, about the real thing, what's going on in love. He really taught me about it. And I, you know, what I did was help him and listen to him and take the best what I could do and, you know, what can you do? You do things without questioning it. If you love someone, if there's true love, you do it. I don't even, I still do that. I don't even question it. That's the way it is. Take it or leave it. So that's what I did. And I'm okay with it. I still miss him, but he was the best friend. I had a lot of my life, which is my husband, but I had the best, best, best friend and that was Glenn Michael Hughes. He was my best friend ever, ever. You have a lot of Glenn's things. When I visited your home, you showed me all kinds of memorabilia, gold records. How did you come to have those items? When he was passing away, when he was dying, he said to me, I want you to have this and take care of it. And I more or less refused it. I said, I don't want it. Please don't do this to me. He said, I want you to have it. You have to take care of it. And perhaps you can make money out of it. Well, we are 20 years later and didn't make any money out of it. It's still in my house because I cannot do it. But like the buckle and some other things he gave to me and he said, I want you to wear it on gay events and things like that. I said, okay, I will respect that. So that's what I do. I wear it on gay events and other events that I think is important and wear Glenn stuff. That's what I do. And it's still in my house and it's now time to do something with it. And it's time to pass it on. Glenn had a copy of this buckle and I gave it to his successor to Eric Angzolone three years ago while Eric was here in Amsterdam and I said, this is for you. And he was totally surprised by it. And I said, well, Glenn would have loved it and he is smiling at you because you're doing a great job being the successor of Glenn. So that's what I'm doing now. I'm trying to pass it on, which is okay. But it's still difficult, but it's okay. It's always hard to say goodbye to things that you love. But it's okay. And it also gives me some more freedom as well. But not only Glenn's things continue, you told me that Glenn's financial contributions benefit or benefited a lot of people, families, for example. Yes, that's correct. When I was working for, I've worked for the group for about 17 years. And Glenn was the only man in the group who stayed in touch with his fan base. So every year when I was there, I had to select all the addresses on the system. And the young women and the young men at that time were 22, 20, whatever, 20 years. 20 years later, they were 40, 44, whatever. But it turned out when he passed away that he had supported four families, four fans who had created the family. And he had supported all these families, four families as a matter of fact. And nobody knew, even I didn't know that. So he had a heart of gold. He was a very, very good man. It's his religious backgrounds, I suppose, you know. Do those families still benefit? I don't know. I really don't know. I just found it, I just found out. And his mother was even surprised by that. Wow. I really don't know. The only thing that I took care of was keeping the addresses on, you know, that's one of my jobs. I did a lot of work with them. You're working on a very big project now about the village people, about Glenn Hughes. True. Tell us about that. What are you doing? It's in the process, so to speak. So what I'm doing is I'm trying, or I'm not trying, I'm putting together all the things that are things important for a photo art book. And the work title is My Journey with Glenn Michael Hughes. And it will include all the material that he produced, as well as never, ever seen published photo material, DMOs that I know, and I can do. Memorabilia that I will photograph. Letters, interviews that I had with a group from 1980 till 1986. So it's going to be huge. There is so much that has to be in the book. So I'm talking about at least 300 pages. And it's a coffee table size, album size. It's not going to be a small book. So I'm working on it, let's say two or three hours a day. And it's going to be huge. And it's also a tribute to Glenn, you know, to close off, you know, to make the clothing disclosure. And it's a hell of a job. It puts me also back in the time when I was working for the group. And I have so many material from the group as well from the record companies at that time. I was supported by many record companies worldwide because I was working for the group. And I kept everything, everything, every little scribble, everything, even personal notes from Glenn and the guys to me. So, you know, there is a lot. That's so much. I was going through my closet today and I realized, oh dear, I have also five tour jackets that I have put them somewhere, you know, and leather gear. And I have his chaps, his buckles, his vests, his shirts. I kept everything because you wanted me to have it. So that's what I, you know. What are you going to do with these items, especially the gold records? These are very valuable items. I have no idea. Today is today, tomorrow is another day. I always believe that, you know, it will work out fine. I believe in that. Today is today, tomorrow is another day. People will come to me, whatever. It always worked that way, you know. Time is running out. I understand that, but, you know, so far so good. There are always vibes or energies that come in your way and taking care of you. I always believe in it. I always believe that in my friendship with Glenn, you know, I still do that. He's still in my life, although he's not physical, but, you know, he's still there, and that's good. I miss him, but, you know, today I can say I'm very thankful that we had this friendship for 22 years. How lucky can you get? Mario, I would like to thank you very, very much. My pleasure. For participating in Inside Leather History, the fireside chat. Again, doing something different, not necessarily old-timers being interviewed, but something unique.