 Okay, we're back here live in Silicon Valley, the heart of Big Data Land here at Stratoconference. This is SiliconANGLE's coverage of O'Reilly Media Stratoconference, where all the innovation and big data, analytics, applications, infrastructure is happening here. This is theCUBE, our flagship live program. We go out to the events, extract the signal from the noise. I'm John Furrier, I'm with my co-host. Hi everybody, I'm Dave Vellante, wikibon.org. And this is an old saying that big data gives the cloud something to do. And we're going to come into our cloud and big data segment here. We're here with Michael Manusheri, a CUBE alum. He is heavily involved in Google's developer program. And basically going out, courting developers and helping them really exploit the Google infrastructure, the greatness that is Google. Michael, welcome back to theCUBE. Yeah, thanks for the good to see you guys again. Yeah, good to see you. So programming, honestly, is something that's really not talked about here, because it's kind of a big data analytics. A lot of business show, a lot of big money players like Intel, EMC making some power moves, distribution issues and going on. But it is an open source community. We're talking about code now. And Google knows a little bit about code and data and big data because since the Google tool bar, we've been collecting big data and they have Gmail and a variety of online services. You guys are in the big data business core competency. Yeah, I mean, if people forget, like the BI tools were all about things you install and use, and I'm here to meet startups, meet developers who are doing new things, integrating with some of these systems, filling the gaps between all these different technologies. And that's why I'm here today. So we coined a term yesterday called data as code, which is a riff on infrastructure as a code, which is essentially kind of your philosophy, also Facebook has the same philosophy of DevOps and that's world, and that's automation, cloud, cloud operations. But data as code takes on a whole other life. For example, we talked to some Python developers who are really hardcore data scientists programming. So that's a big market going on. Like the whole Python analytics thing, I think that's huge and it's going to grow and grow. Making this stuff accessible to people. So talk about your view on this because this is something that we want to expand more editorially on is that data was a set of data you would bring into an application. The application would interrogate the data and use that data. But data as code takes on a whole another reasoning, meta reasoning like layer where the developers need to use code, code sets and build on that. Yeah, I'm a big fan of data as a living breathing thing. You know, like looking at data while it's streaming, looking at data itself as an object and gaining insights from that. I think a lot of this stuff going on here and Google does this too with things like the way we use protocol buffers to move data back and forth and really understand what's going on with data in motion. I think that's a real key. What's going on in that area right now? What are some of the advances that you're seeing that you can share with the developers out there? You've seen a lot of interesting things like Twitter Storm which is a way to look at data as it's moving through a pipeline rather than BI tools which is data warehouse, warehouse it and then look at it later. Warehouse it and we'll figure out what to do with that data later. Yeah, shove it in the closet and then we'll go pull it out when we need it. Exactly, people are realizing that data is a living thing, right? You can gain access to it while it's streaming and there's some value there. Also aggregate analysis of all the data you've collected that's important as well. I think people are coming to grips with that. People at the big data world know all about this. Google's done it, Facebook's done it, Twitter's done it and Amazon as well. But here we're seeing people just small development teams realizing the power of this kind of technology and a lot of it's open source and they can use it, it's accessible. Prices are coming down. So I think this is going to be a big sea change in the way we look at data for business. From that BI warehouse to the living, breathing data. So analyze the data, make decisions, let the machine help you make decisions prior to persisting it. Exactly, exactly. It's not just warehousing, it's not like sticking it in a box. It's like let's open it up and see what it's doing, like data in motion and seeing what the historic insights are as well. Well like you said, Google's been doing that for a long time as some of the other web giants. What are developers sort of asking you for? What's the big request that they're making? How are you responding to that? One is accessibility, like one is a way for them to interact with these tools in a way where they don't have to do a lot of infrastructure work. That's the biggest thing. I think that's, so I work on the Google BigQuery team. It's a hosted analytics database basically, right? So people want to be able to access that without building their own infrastructure, plugging in their own machines, doing a lot of work to write code to plug the gaps. They just want a way to get the data in from one data store to another and we're working on that now at Google. Okay, and then obviously providing that as a cloud-based service. Exactly, all cloud-based APIs to interact with all the stuff and everything's going in that direction. Amazon's doing a lot of this as well. You see this, this is kind of a trend. I think like you see Cladera and some of these big cloud players doing the same thing. Well, I mean Amazon clearly is attacking the enterprise and being very aggressive. You saw the re-invent conference and they were throwing down the gauntlet. Basically essentially calling the traditional enterprise guys margin pigs. You guys haven't used that in your marketing. Yeah, we don't say that. But Amazon is very aggressive, right? And putting things out there that were, actually put a lot of pressure on CIOs. I think it's the right move for them. I think that's a great idea, right? Like bring that stuff into the cloud. There's a lot of advantages to the cloud. I was just in the F1 talk. So the Google F1 talk was packed. They talked about Spanner, our new database inside of Google, cool stuff. And one thing we do at Google is we use atomic clocks to sync the commit mess, you know, commits. Algorithmically solve for the speed of light. I mean it's like, cloud used to just be VMs in the cloud, right? You could do the same thing internally. Now it's moving farther away. Like are you going to put an atomic clock in your internal data center if you've got one guy running the show? No. Dave and I were talking yesterday. We're all, when the bottom up meets the top down, all the action happens in the middle. And we're moving quickly to that line. But the question that we were, especially what we were having was that we talked to all of our CIO friends and we asked them directly and also we surveyed them. And we asked them, if you can give up your data center, would you do it? In a heartbeat, almost 100% yes. Everybody. Because they're in meetings. Their budget of time is spent. If it's not power and cooling, if it's at least cost, it's some other operational baggage. And they want to build apps. And they want to onboard developers. So what do you see in that? How do you, now that you agree with that? That trend is completely right. Like, you can look at it with mail, right? Like it's the same product that people had. Their own send mail servers and they, blah, blah, blah. Now they just want to use Gmail or something like that. Like that's a trend. And everybody wants to move in that direction. They want to build apps. Look at the mobile developers who are three person shops. They're building a game. They don't have time to build a data center. They don't want exchange. They just, I'll say it. I didn't say that. I'll say it. No, no, it's the truth. Sorry, Microsoft, I got to get with the program. But no, but there are some issues. So like, you know, what, you know. You've seen the Microsoft ads. The new Microsoft ads, have you seen them? Going after Gmail. That's right. Good luck with that. Yeah, I dress like that. Serving ads. No, I'll look in the clouds, actually get some traction. We'll see how that goes. But in all seriousness, no, there's some security risks. So let's talk about that. I mean, you know, web services is now prime time. And you go back a decade when web services was hitting the scene. You know, it was post.com bubble. It just never popped. It was some good tech involved. But now, you know, fast forward 10 more years, web services is the rage, because you can use web services and some of those techniques to do validation, authentication, all kinds of stuff. So what is your take on that? Because that's a developer angle, but it's also a network, and it's also some other plumbing stuff. Yeah, it's true. Like educating people on how to use, like things like web services, RESTful APIs, that's a challenge. I mean, a lot of people that come from the desktop world, they don't know how to do that. I've noticed that kind of gap. And you see people who really get that, making a lot of inroads into that system. I think that this is true. The security angle as well. I think people just need to be educated. I have a hard time believing that, you know, security in the cloud is, especially with these large established players, is any worse than something you could do with the duct taped together data centers that you have internally. But it's just about education and using those protocols properly. But I think generally people, I would agree with that. The vast majority of potential customers out there, companies like Google are going to have much better security. The difference seems to be, and I wonder what Google's posture is, if we talked about, you know, Amazon's attack in the enterprise before, you said that's good for them. It seems like you're more comfortable with going after the developer space, and that's maybe the best use case for today. I personally think there's an inevitability that more and more people will move to the web as a first class. And even mobile as the first class development platform and then the web second. And, you know, this kind of traditional space where people are still building desktop apps, do you think that's quickly going away? Because of all the advantages of the web platform. The tooling and, you know, some of the technologies we need to catch up, but we'll catch up quickly. Like what? Give me some examples of that. I mean, building a web application, the tooling is still pretty primordial, right? Like if you want to do something, like if you wanted to build it, you know, some kind of database front-end in the cloud. Like, yeah, it's, the tooling is not quite there yet, but we're moving quickly. We have teams of Google working on this. We have lots of people in the open source space working on great tooling, you know. So I think it's coming. So, how do you get by all the noise? And I want to ask you, I want to ask you about how you guys evangelize some of the things that you've done as open source code and get by the noise, but also I wanted, before that, reference what Intel said yesterday on, because they're actually, they're a big player, and it's legit, right? It's performance, gains, security, and user experience. I mean, those are things that Google, that's like in your DNA, right? Talk about those three factors of performance security, I mentioned sellable security in the database side, and then user experience. And then- You know, I don't have the metrics for security, but for me, I know that Google security is top notch, and I know some of the cloud players that are out there, they care about that first and foremost. They have, we have armies of people that care about security. It's a differentiator for you, right? I mean, this is another thing you can't do with your own infrastructure if you're small, is like have really top notch security, unless you have a great security expert. I mean, Google and Amazon, all these people, they hire security experts, they have armies of people monitoring the cloud systems. That's one thing. Okay. Well, there are trust issues on that too. I mean, there's a lot of issues there. Well, but I want to stay on security for a second, because from a technology standpoint, and a process, et cetera, I think there's no question that your security's going to be better. The issue for a lot of enterprise customers, and again, we're going after developers, so this is not as much of an issue, but I want to get your opinion here is, well, I can't go in and audit. It doesn't comply with the edicts of my organization. They won't redefine what an incident is, the reporting's not compatible with the way I report, and this just doesn't work for me. I mean, I can't speak for other companies, but I know at Google we have this internal project called the Data Liberation Front. I don't know if you've got heard about this. There's actually Google engineers who let you export all your data and make sure that every product that's cloud-based has an option for you to get your data out and monitor it. Google Apps has a great monitoring API, for example. So I don't know about the other players, but at Google, at least, we think a lot about this. So as a customer, could I actually come in and physically audit the data center? Well, it depends on what you're doing, right? You can't come into our data centers, but we have APIs that let you log. Look at the App Engine logging apparatus. Everything is logged very well. We're building the same kind of tools on the Compute Engine product that's going to be generally available at some point this year, probably. And so these kind of things are, we're building it. Okay, so I respect that. You're not going to let people into your buildings. Will you meet with me or do I have to email you? Oh, I mean, it depends on what you're doing, right? I'm not from a big customer, right? Will you sit down and meet with me and to talk about security and what you're doing? I mean, we just released a platform support package, and this is to address some of those concerns. So some of our big players coming in, they can come and talk to somebody. We have sales engineers as well. I mean, we're building this for the long term. Maybe let my insurance owners in and have a little discussion. I'm serious. These are compliance issues, yeah. I'm very familiar with this because I used to work on the Google Apps product. And yeah, these are important things. And we're going to maintain full compliance with some of these enterprise-level security. And I know it's out of the context of the developer community because they're not pounding you for that stuff, but it's coming, right? Yeah, I mean, these are real problems and real challenges for people. But yeah, we are working on it and we're aware of some of these things. How do you talk to the young developers out there, Michael? Because there's a new generation of entrepreneurs and developers coming into the marketplace who don't know that we're on our fourth generation open source. We haven't lived through those generational shifts. As we had that debate last night, I think we're on the fourth generation open source. We debated what year it actually started, but we pegged 1985 as a nice November. I just went to the QFS talk here. It's just that it looks a lot like rate and we were just joking that, you know, we see the same things over and over. We call it the prehistoric open source. And then really UNIX drove a lot of that, you know, it was AT&T created that way. But so those young guys are out there looking for navigation around what to do, what products to get involved in. There's a lot of choices of patches, obviously solid. You guys have a lot of different approaches. Dremel's out there. We always talk about like the modern, I call them the modern developers and these are people that using like Ruby on Rails and they love scripting languages and they don't know anything about systems. And I think great, you know, like systems is becoming a specialized thing. You know, they just want the cloud to work. They want everything to look like a web stack. And we sort of do that at Google where we, you know, the infrastructure is a separate layer. Like, you know, there's somebody running all that stuff and then all the app developers just write their app. And I think that's the way everything is going. I always trust whatever Google does now, everyone will be doing it. Yeah, we joke, Dave and I have joked on the queue before that Google's could be the, is the Intel, what they did with the microprocessor by hardening down all the really complex, low level coding. Yeah, exactly. I think developers just go to the microprocessor. So you guys have that same- We have that same mentality, like, but on the cloud scale, right? So we want the cloud to just be a cloud that you can write an application, deploy it and it's just out there for everybody. We handle all the details. So I got to ask you about something that we're calling software-led infrastructure versus software-defined infrastructure. All the rage on convergence, the old convergence, network storage, compute. Yeah, the old son network is the computer. That is convergence, but you add flash. We had Scott McNeely on a while back and he said, I just sort of called the cloud. That would still be a business. I mean, the converged infrastructure, I say he has a good name, but it's been modernized. You got flash, you got open compute going on. So a whole new dimension of what those elements are now doing and they're calling it software-defined data center. I want to get your take on that. What is the software-defined data center? And what is not defined? You said, why we use the term software-led. Well, I'm not sure exactly what your terminology means, but I do get what the concept is, which is like people want, they want use cases, they want the development environment to match what they're doing, right? So one example is I want to test locally and deploy globally because it's easier that way. I want to test on my laptop, write an app that fits and then just deploy it at planetary scale. And that's the kind of stack that I want to be able to run. And I think that's what's happening, right? So people are, look at what Heroku's doing. Like they've scaled up the sort of Ruby on Rails kind of environment, you know, get to deploy this kind of stuff. And I think that's smart because developers want to do that. They want to use their rail stack on their laptop, develop, push to the cloud and it just runs. And I think that's sort of what you're getting at. Yeah, I think that's what people want. They want push button, global deployment, and you can use virtualization. Go hacking for the production side. I'm simplifying a little bit what I say at Google, we have that internally. I mean, there's a little more complicated. Yeah, we basically think that way. We're like, I don't, as a developer, if I'm making like the new Gmail or something, I don't want to think about the deployment that much. I just want to be able to, you know, make sure it runs and then push. Well, I talked to Sergey in 08, 2008, when they announced Android and or Chrome, if you will. And, you know, the big conversation was, I think I was the only one who actually wrote this, but, you know, turns out it was true today, but it's an operating system at the end of the day. And he kind of had that smirk on his face. No, it's not an operating system. It's the PR God, oh no, no, no, no operating system. Come on, Sergey, it's an operating environment. But that's what you're talking about, right? Yeah, it's just a place to run the app. Like, I don't know what you want to call it. Operating system is a specialized thing. I don't want to, well, that brings up, kind of let people get all their hair stands up when they hear about that, but it's really not about competitive issues. It's more of, it's an operating environment, right? You got run code on things, distributed resources. Right, it's like you want to build something and you want people to use it. I mean, that's all it is. I don't know what to call it anymore, but that's basically the environment. I think environment is a good way to look at it. Oh, let's talk about like the things, the language, like obviously Java's got a big following, Python's big. What are some of the languages that you're seeing that you think are well positioned for rapid acceleration in this new modern infrastructure? So you talked about Python earlier for analytics. Python is a huge developer community and we use it a lot at Google and I think that people are coming around the idea that it's a great language developed for some of these things. It's concise, a lot of people are using it for analytics and it's opening the door to people that are just getting into development. So that's one. I'm from Google, I don't want to plug Go, but I think Go has made a lot of these kind of inroads to some of this stuff. So I don't mean to sound like a company man, but Go has become very popular for some of these things. How about some of the databases out there? So you got Mongo, you got Hadoop, you got different varieties of flavors in memory, you got a hot startup, Aerospike, which is in memory. This brings up another language, it was JavaScript. So a lot of these things have JSON objects, there's a lot of JavaScript libraries. I mean, JavaScript is still big and it's very accessible as well. So say what you will about that languages. They got Node.js out there. Node is huge, things like that, WebSockets is huge. So there's a lot of these kind of JavaScript web based. So things that come from the web and are filtering out to the rest of the community, I think that's a big one. Talk about WebKit, okay? Because obviously when that came out that was really kind of liberating. And where do you see that happening now? What are some of the dynamics? How has that evolved? And we're talking about where is it? It's interesting to see Opera switching over to WebKit as well. Yeah, what are you hearing out there? What's some of the feedback you're getting on that? So WebKit is great. Like this is a really successful project, right? It was an open source project. It started with the grassroots around like, I think the Linux kind of environment and it just was the best way to do this. And after time, it just seemed like a really great solution to the kind of, you know, sort of the, what is it called? The rendering engine for a browser. And I think people have glommed onto it and said it's open source, we can use it, we can create some standards around it and it just has taken off. Okay, so given that, so what's happening in mobile on the developer front? What is the front end environment look like for developers who want to say, you know what, I want mobile. Web will get to it's easier or whatever, but mobile primarily. So you've seen Firefox OS, you have these kind of things where they're like, browsers that are the primary interface, you see Ubuntu moving into that space. It's great because it shows how big that market is, right? So, you know, it's, what did Eric Schmidt say? It's going to be 10 times larger than the kind of desktop market that we had. And that's wonderful. A lot of people are going to have mobile as their first computing environment. And I think it's just exciting. I think it's- First, second and third. Lots of operating systems in there. Okay, we've got a break. Michael, thanks for coming on theCUBE. One parting comment for the end. What is the future for developers over the next 12 to 14 months? What are you going to be seeing as the hot stuff? Cloud services and convergence. Okay, you're here on theCUBE. Google agreeing with data as code, which was our religion. We love that living organism data is a key asset and it's going to be real part of the developer equation as well as the customers. So this is theCUBE at the Strata conference. We'll be right back with our next guest after this short break.