 This session, we are happy to introduce a terrific session called Challenging Goliath, bringing virtual reality into higher education. Our speakers today are Saley Davis, Cheryl Moore, Alino Connor, and Al Rotondo. Dr. Alino Connor and Elaine, who was unable to be with us today, are associate professors at SUNY Empire State College and they're working in learning and emerging technologies with the Master of Arts in Learning and Emerging Technologies program called MALLOT. Saley Davis has been an educator for 20 years, working with homeschool children, private schools, and special needs. She has degrees in creative marketing and media communications. Cheryl Moore is the master's candidate in learning and emerging technologies at MALLOT from Empire State College. Moore is employed as a financial educator at SEFCU, a New York State Credit Union, where she works with individuals served by non-profit organizations, schools, and credit union members. Al Rotondo has written, produced, and directed hundreds of corporate video presentations and has taught video production techniques at associations, conventions, trade shows, and through podcasts. Always embracing the entrepreneurial spirit of his work, he pioneered the production of one of the first podcasts for the video production industry, while producing broadcast and corporate TV and earning a learning and emerging technology master's at Empire State College. The three speakers above, let's see. And now I want to say welcome all. Let's begin the session. Okay, well thank you very much everybody for staying here this late or early evening for all of you. We're here from Empire State College, which is part of the State University of New York, and just a little background on us. We're a rather unique SUNY school in that we pretty much serve adults. So we have a very interesting population. The school started in the 1970s. We have almost 20,000 students, but we're distributed across New York State. So what you're going to hear from these students and myself, I lean and I'm one of the instructors, is how we create community within an online network. And so remember, these students have never met each other physically. I think I've met a couple of them physically, but really we know each other from a distance. And so tonight we're going to be looking at a little bit of the history of how Empire State College got into this. And then we will look and see how some of the instructors that are here tonight and I'm going to be representing my colleague, Dr. Nicola Alon. She and I have been pioneers in this for over 10 years. And then we're going to look at what we're doing today. And then in the middle, we're going to actually see what some of our illustrious students have done. And then we'll wrap it up by looking at some of the things we're doing presently. So what I do want to point out, and I think a lot of people have brought this in before, what online courses can be somewhat isolating. And we've been able to use the virtual reality over the past 10 years as a way to create a sense of community. You all know a sense of presence. We've been able to do shared development, which is one of the things that you're going to see here, how we've supported each other in developing things. But we find that we can encourage creativity and immersive medias. But we're also challenged. It takes a while for people to learn how to get into these environments. And we tend to be very much our own self-supporters. We don't have a lot of institutional support coming in and giving us the help. So that would be the things we would like. But undaunted to go back a little bit through our history, Empire State College headquarters, and it's in 40 locations around the state, but it's headquartered out of Saratoga, New York, which is a historical town. What you see up here is the alumni house. When funding came through a grant, which Nicola could have talked more about, but in the mid-2000s, funding came and the original buildings were designed by artists who made it look kind of like our actual alumni house. What we did initially was work through Second Life. And here is one of the meetings that Nicola herself was at. She's there with the long hair and the red dress. She actually makes avatars. So what happened to was Nicola was able to take that concept of kind of going back in history. And she developed a course over 10 years ago called The Future of Being Human, a very interesting futuristic course. And the storyline was she brought them into the bottom of this ancient building. And then when the students came in, they became teleported in through an avatar system into another reality. So she really was getting people to start thinking about the concept of being human, but also where are humans going with these virtual spaces and virtual environments? So in that process, she gave here some of the assignments that she had. They went through this experience, they went into their online courses, and they wrote using this right from her notes some of the expectations within the course and started to think about how humans would start working in these environments. But at the same point, while she was doing that futuristic work, the artists that were funded initially were developing facsimiles. I don't know if you can see to the left. That was something we had on our original Second Life Island, which was a replica of one of the buildings, the historical buildings right near our campus. So initially we did have that type of funding. The other thing we also had back in around 2007 when I got involved was there was some grant funding that allowed me to get a private island. And I don't know if you remember, you couldn't bring young people onto Second Life. They had, I forget the name, Teen Island, but I got actually a private island. And back then we did have some support from the college. We did have some of our tech people would help us with, if we had a meeting, they would help people with their microphones and some of those supports that you wish you had. But when I went and worked with this grant, I worked with middle school students. Very different environment. They had no problem with the environment. The problem was more keeping them focused. And so I learned a lot from that. And one of the things I've always done is tried to publish my work more as what you call action research. I haven't had the time or the funding to do research much outside of my classroom. So this was a publication that I created all about 10 years ago, bringing this to some of the teacher education conferences. And what Nikola and I did, the other faculty member, we tried to bring this beyond our immediate students. And at that point I was in the science education program. And so what we started to do was our own grassroots effort to get other faculty involved, to get instructional designers involved. This little website that you see a screen capture of was some of the work that we assembled. We had monthly meetings. And we were able to maintain funding for Second Life for a while. Simultaneously, the college and myself, and it's a part of it, we started a master's program in learning and emerging technology. You're going to meet some of our illustrious students shortly. And along with that, it became cost prohibitive to stay in Second Life. Nikola and I, we really had to be our own support. And along with the wonderful ability to now get islands and artifacts that we could use from others, we were able to kind of move out on our own. And so what we did when the program started, we were still at that point in Second Life using some of the materials that were created by different artists. So this was a building that Nikola had commissioned. And this is just one of our early preparatory meetings in our new master's program. What we have since done, and this is the work you're going to be learning about shortly, was developed a course where students themselves create islands. And we've been very happy with Kitely. Kitely has given us the ability to have islands that are affordable. Students come in, we've had over 30 students now develop their own islands to suit their own needs. Some of them become, becomes part of their final thesis. And what I did in the process was create a number of online tutorials. Way back in my past history, I'd been a technical writer for IBM. So I have that kind of technical writing background. I have a lot of materials that I would be glad to share with anybody, their open source on how to create Kitely Islands, which just gives us the benefit of a wonderful server along with Firestorm and the very wonderful open source materials that have been allowed, that have been given to us. So one of the things that Nikola and I have continued to do is we still promote the online worlds within SUNY. The SUNY system itself has, I think, some half million students. And we're part of the consortiums there. What we often do is bring forth our work. We still have a lot of old perceptions that the islands are expensive. We have the competition now in online environments with a lot of e-communication tools. So it holds us back sometimes. But I think what you're going to find is the communities that we've developed have kept us going. What I have seen though, and I think maybe some of you might identify with this, there can be disruption bringing in a new technology like this that really is outside of the learning management systems. And sometimes that can cause issues among faculty themselves. Innovative technologies can be perceived as being a little threatening. But what I want to applaud are the students that I've worked with. Here's one student who is a social worker. He's created his own environment. And he brings parents who have been sent over by court-appointed systems. And he has a virtual environment that he's developed where he can bring parents and social workers and children together in a very new way. And this just is a student presenting at a conference. We've had other students. Oh, and this happens to be the part of the student's island. There was a key researcher out of England. And he decided to make some of his buildings like the place where the research was done in England. And on these slides are the ways you can find these islands in Kitely. We have another student who was working on enculturating people coming in from other countries. She wanted a safe place for them to come in and explore. She created this space. This happens to be a historic setting for Japanese cultural studies for high school students. So we've had students who've actually created some work dealing with some of the materials that have been made available by artists. This one I think is the last before we go on to the students themselves was a very unique island that's just under development right now. We encourage you to visit these islands created by a graphic artist. And to the left you're going to see the aerial view of his island. And to the right you'll see one of his actual creations, a very interesting space. So being that I'm in the academic and part of what I do is see how my students work in these spaces. Some create them. This last slide is just students visiting a space. I had them play around, pull some artifacts out of their inventory and do some playful things with them. And you just see that this I used to build community and I had a recent publication there. And I really could tease out and see that these students themselves really have enjoyed the process. So now to let them speak for themselves, I'll pass the mic over to Al Rotondo. And I will try to turn to the slides for him. But Al cue me if I don't do them at the right time. Thank you. First slide please. The concept began as an exercise in teaching three-point lighting in a sky box hovering above one of two Empire State College islands in Second Life. Functioning video lights were developed and once this was achieved I knew that further concepts could be flushed out in a virtual environment. Next slide please. Second Life had just opened up their code. The recent emergence of the open simulator environment, the one we're in right now, made virtual environments now accessible to everyone. I began to design and implement a fully functioning virtual learning environment and named it video production world. This provides a way for video production learners to see, experience, situationally engage and learn the tools and techniques of the trade of video production without leaving home. This saves the traditional costs of traveling to learning conferences and the conference costs of setting up live learning simulations, leveling the playing field for learners of all economic backgrounds. Next slide please. I created wayfinding kiosks that are located in different parts of the island for easy navigation throughout the island. When you click one of the names, it highlights the area on the map and therefore you know where to go to see that particular event and display. Next slide please. This project was effective in five distinct areas. One, harnessing the in-world sun to mimic the real world sun in helping teach outdoor lighting techniques through the use of scrims and reflectors. This was the first bit of physics that we played with myself and a developer that I worked with on this. Once I saw that we could control the actual sun, the in-world sun, to act as a real sun, I was really excited and knew that the rest of the physics would fall into place. This was the first of many technical developments. Two, creating working, functioning video lights to teach three-point lighting techniques. We had started with some lights in second life, but then we further developed them. We were able to turn them on and off, adjust the intensity of the lights, etc. Next slide please. Three, achieving in-world balance of cameras on booms with counterweights to teach this type of camera mounting and movement. We created two different booms, and the physics of adding weights and different size weights was just very, very interesting and amazing to do in an in-world environment. Next slide please. Providing an amphitheater to play a variety of video production instructional videos that I created just for this video production training environment. Next slide please. And five, recreating a working, active TV studio, teaching camera switching techniques. Mannequins or teaching agents were used to play the parts of camera people, the director and on-stage talent. Next slide please. Reviewers of this thesis project had a five-choice answer system for their survey. They could express their agreement with terms ranging from strongly agree to agree to indifferent, then disagree and strongly disagree. The reviewers were a selection of novices and existing video professionals. Analysis of this data indicated that overall favorable responses were evenly distributed between novices and professionals, making video production world positively received among both types of learners and visitors. Next slide please. Video production world proved that the physical three-dimensional aspects of video production can be taught in a virtual environment with considerable success. Success was achieved in several real-world physical replications such as control of the in-world sun, creating functional and controllable video lights, and developing real-world weight differentials in a virtual environment. Thank you. And now we'll have Selie talk about her work. Thank you, Al. Thank you, Eileen. Well, the virtual world is like the Guy Fox mask. Some see it as inspirational. Others view it with fear and distrust. Is this based on its facelessness, technology, or darker fears? Well, I once shared the same prejudice. And just to kind of speak on that, before I started my master's program, I would have never set foot in any virtual world. So what I've learned in my studies is that breaking down those fears to help others see the potential of virtual worlds is not an easy task. So working as a student, I explore aspects of the virtual world using my island in Kitely, Multiverse Masters. I make builds to serve as a meeting place for gamification of education, simulation, testing grounds, interactivity, playground games, and for educational content for varied ages and levels. I convinced the graduate student collaborative to fund a club island for presentation displays to give students a place to practice presenting and a place to meet. Out of four fellow officers, one was already familiar with virtual worlds. One was hostile and aggressively against it, and two had no opinion. So I used Zoom and multiple virtual viewers to do live training. Although I gained support for the attempt, one of the two joining decided the learning curve was too high and the other was open but non-participatory after the training. So a feedback from members was also mixed with a majority remaining indifferent. The college cut funding for the project after only one month of the island being live. This is an example of the need to communicate intensely with others to overcome these inhibitions concerning this technology. I also presented one of my builds, Multiverse Moon Base Masters at the Cooney Gaming Conference in New York City as a proof of concept via distance with the help of my on-site college professor Mark Lewis. Technology at the conference did not allow for in-world participation. I presented via phone over a portable speaker as the professor controlled the slides. Later, we had one-on-one sessions for participants to try out the games designed. Again, the campus did not allow virtual world connectivity, so we used Skype Conference. Sharing my screen, I walked through the gameplay while answering questions. This did not allow for first player interaction. However, this is an example of how we must work through barriers to promote the potential virtual worlds offer. To help support developers, I create tutorial videos and presentations. This one on virtual world design was presented in-world for the Institute of New Paradigms. I have found the best way to change stigmas and open minds to these opportunities is to research, publish, and promote. I use videos, presentations, websites, and blogs to do so. I create curriculum supports on Wapoli.com and developer supports on MultiverseMasters.blogspot.com. If you are interested in making a positive impact on the OpenSim community, then I strongly encourage you to do the same. Thank you very much. So thank you, Say Lee, and our lovely participants will be inviting you to their spaces. But let's go over to Cheryl Moore, who has something to tell us about her recent piloted financial space that she created. Thank you, Eileen. As a student of learning with emerging technologies at Empire State College, I became enamored with designing virtual spaces in Dr. O'Connor's virtual practicum courses. My profession is in financial education, as you heard. So I was inspired to create an environment in which people could have fun learning something that otherwise can be considered boring or stressful and even intimidating, which is the financial education piece. So what you're seeing here is an aerial view of the shopping center that serves as the backdrop for the financial education. I created an environment named Pixelated, in which individuals can experience real-world practice and have fun. And then I conducted a pilot study to test the environment and examine how to bring financial education into a virtual space. The design is a mixture of realism and simplicity and a little humor sprinkled throughout. So for example, there's a restroom, because as we know, when you're shopping, you need a restroom, right? Go ahead in the next slide. Thank you, Eileen. As an educator and instructional designer, I follow an approach to financial education that is rooted in the principles that you see here on the slide. And the focus is on behavior and capability, inclusion, not judgment. So having a virtual space in which to learn is exciting because people can practice without having concern over real-world failure and the things that tend to cause that stress and anxiety around finances for some people. And actually using humor and dynamic visuals is a great way, as you may know, to put people at ease and establish a safe and fun learning environment. This slide is an example of a shopping list or the shopping list that can be used to teach budgeting, saving and sharing and actually also prioritization of needs and wants that enables autonomous decision-making. So students or learners in the environment would work through this list to accomplish the items and they get to practice several concepts around financial education that way. Here you see the credit union, and this is where learners log their transactions in a tool provided free by brightbank.com. It simulates a checking, saving, and even credit card account, which provides practice for recordkeeping and money mindfulness, which is an important concept. This is an example of an important habit which may not be modeled at home or taught elsewhere and so it can be practiced safely in world. And the uses of my study actually really enjoyed using that tool. So just to conclude, the educational approach involves these elements that you see on the slide, and they're all very easily achieved in an immersive space. So that really contributes to the appreciation of those spaces for what I do in my professional work. And if you're interested in learning more about the study, you can learn more about the study tomorrow evening. I'll be on at 5.30 or 8.30 Eastern Time. So I hope to see some of you there and help you learn a little bit more about what happened in that study. So thank you. Okay, thank you. As you can see, we have wonderful adult students who really bring their own personal history and interest in as they've been designing work. And so I hope you will get a chance to speak more with them, visit their islands, and join Cheryl tomorrow evening. She had a very productive pilot study. But just to kind of wrap up this part of the presentation with where are we going now? As you can see, we've got a combination of faculty who work and teach within these spaces. We've been using them in an online forum, sometimes for meetings, sometimes for, as you'll see in a moment, a residency. We've been using them in different ways and hope to continue to use them. At the same time, we have had some 30 students develop their own spaces over the past couple of years. And again, thank you so much to OpenSim, to Kitely, and to the many generous artists that have allowed us to do this. And what we are seeing though is, I'll show you a couple of our new ventures. We, in the mallet program, we are 100% online and we now have a group of wonderful students who've graduated or working. And we wanted to consider, continue with the quote, residency model. The school has such other master's programs where the people get together geographically. And that's very nice when you're together. It's expensive though. Our main headquarters is out of New York City. It's very expensive to go in there. And so we're trying to see, and it's been brought into the strategic plan of the graduate program, to look at alternative ways of meeting. And so we piloted a virtual residency. And wonderfully, Al, who's already graduated, say Lee, who's actually still close to finished with her graduation. They came and helped support other newbies coming into this environment. So it was a very multi students in different parts of their own careers. And what we are doing is trying to get more groups involved in these virtual environments. But I will tell you between teaching, and I recently became program coordinator with a lot of administrative responsibilities, grading, publishing. I don't have time personally to go out and be convincing all faculty. So what we've done, though, among ourselves is created a think tank. And we're starting to think, and I'm hoping we can encourage some of you to join us. But I'll show you these last few things that are helping us take the message forward. This was the residency that I mentioned. I'll show you some of the feedback we got from the residency. We ran it to be very similar to a conference. And I think that had its pluses and minuses. But there's a lot of interest within our program because we're an emerging technology program in things that are augmented reality as well. We're looking at 360 cameras. So the goal of this conference was to introduce some of those areas too. So we had some classic, more like this where you have, now we call them our TED talks, in the background where we introduced some concepts. Dr. Alon brought people on a walking tour, which was very well received. To some of her island, she does very beautiful work. I have a science background. My work is very practical. She's got an art background. Her work is very elegant. And so we went on a walking tour. We got a chance to talk about some of our other courses in media and arts. I run STEM courses. We talked about those. And ended the residency with one of our instructors talking about some of the game design work he does with Unity. What was particularly pleasing to me, these were some snapshots from our residency, was that the dean came as well. And faculty members. The dean came, launched the residency, explained about the strategic focus we're trying to get. And starting to see the role of innovation within our graduate program. And here are, these are no snapshots of some of the people who were here. We have now brought in people beyond the college. So we had, I found it a very enjoyable time. What we did ask for people to, in an anonymous way, give us feedback. So we could improve it. And there were three questions. And the first one was, how does this differ from a, quote, regular conference? Everybody's been to conferences. And this was anonymous, so they could be honest. But again, they, these are students and alums and people who kind of know us. They were pretty kindly. One person did comment. It's just like any other conference, sit and listen. So I didn't know whether how to interpret that, but thought that's a little bit negative. But they found that it was very engaging in general. And I highlighted the leaps and bounds ahead of a typical webinar or conference calls. I've heard my students talk now about how often they literally claim they hate webinars, which we have to see in many different ways. What we did ask them was what was interesting to them. We did talk about augmented reality. Some people were pleased to find out they could build a world. We told them about open source. Some people really noticed the fact that it was a community. So one person expanded quite a bit about that. We had a walking tour, which was very popular. We have to remember, though, to walk slowly enough, the tour in person lost some people. But we did find that, you know, people enjoyed that opportunity to actually walk around. And they want to know, how could we improve this? Now, I will have to say, I wish we had the support and time that this lovely conference has been run around. We didn't. And you'll see in some of the comments, they really wanted better organization. They wanted us to, you know, scaffold them into the environment more. There were some very good ideas about having two speakers. Somebody who speaks and somebody who watches the chat. So we get some very good productive ideas. None of which really would be, excuse me, within the realm of durability, provided that we had more staff to help us go through these. But we continue on using these meetings. We have our students now present when they do their final projects. We recently had people presenting about their final projects, which we tried a different format this time, where we had a quote poster session. It worked and didn't work. The students brought their work. We put them out in posters and the students stayed there as people came around to discuss what was going on in the different projects. We had microphone problems that more came from the fact that some of the students hadn't prepared in advance, so their mics didn't work right. And another problem for me, I had put the posters a little bit too close to each other. We had sound overlap. So I think there are ways we can improve. But the concept of going around and seeing the posters of different people's work seem to work. I think we need to polish it up a bit. But in terms of polishing, what I had observed was we've had a lot of wonderful students come through. I still continue with these students. Al has graduated two years back. He still is kind enough to come back. We started something that we've called the Institute for New Paradigms. And it's to be a think tank. We're still thinking through what our think tank will be. We've had meetings on a monthly basis since last spring. We've had enough interest to really say that this is an idea to pursue. And what we did was by the summer, when the summer started, I took a poll of people's interests. And based on the poll, which was through a Google form, we started breaking this down into an executive group and also into a research group. And those are the planning pieces. Now, so far, we haven't gotten as far as I would like in terms of passing over some of the management. I still do most of it myself, which has got a little challenging when I had to pick up an extra role a month or six weeks ago when somebody got promoted up and I had to pick up a lot more administrative work. But we do have a faithful group that comes to these meetings. We want to invite others. I think we're close to being well enough to invite others. We're very much still more of a professional development than research-oriented think tank. We've been sharing ideas. We've another student working with me. We co-published something just a week ago, just turned in all the paperwork. So what we're doing is what we hope someday to give Spielberg a run for the money, we're going to be having that threaded environment where we work sometimes virtually in an immersive space. Maybe someday when we do get the headsets in 3D here, we can do that as well. But we're finding that this environment does allow us to continue to work together. And just a couple more wrap-up slides where what we did ask the institute members themselves who really were a core of people that I've known and worked with over the past number of years and we've invited some guests. Selby might be here with us. Selby has been wonderful in helping us. But last June, we asked, what is it you'd like to know more about? So these are progressive thinkers. These slides I'll make available if anyone wants to read the fine detail. But you'll see that people are looking to things like 360 cameras, augmented reality. They're wanting to know more about web world. So all of this new dimension that's coming in. And that's something that this group really would like to learn more about. And we're starting to line up speakers. We're starting to look logistically how we can focus in a number of areas at once. The other thing that came through on that survey in June was that the 12 people who did respond to this question said they would like to continue with research. Now, I've made the form and I knew that if I just said yes or no, they would not want to say no directly to me. So I asked them, would they want to be part of this or maybe in the future? So that was a polite way to say no, I'm not interested or at least not interested now. But we had almost 90% interested in kind of continuing on with kind of future research into these areas. So as we formulate a little more of where we're going with these next steps, in summary, I'm finding that this interest recently in augmented reality, which is coming into a lot of the groups within which I work, is really starting to drive us to be able to open more conversations. And I think we're looking to see how we can leverage this going forward. And also what we're seeing is that to really continue this though, we need some kind of sustained professional growth, not just for people like the folks on the stage here who will do this on their own, but to get more faculty involved. Things I would love if we could have a nice web-based interface. I understand though that the technology is too robust to probably be web-served for a while, but I was delighted to hear this morning that we might be getting 3D headset, 3D interface sooner than I had anticipated. But I think that this is something Kitely's working on. If we can get more pre-designed islands ahead to institutions, I think they can start jumping on board faster. So I think we're all living proof here at this conference that there are many ways we can use these to meet and to talk. I'm still interested in understanding how we can kind of create a conceptual framework for what I'm calling immersion, which is something we do here, but something that some of these other 3D environments are allowing us to get into. So I'll stop at that and thank you all for listening to very much a lecture. But I'm hoping maybe we've inspired some questions and maybe you'll continue to join us because we would very much like to have you come with us. So thank you. Thank you, Eileen, and thank you to all our panelists. Are there any questions from the audience? We're getting late in the day and everyone's getting ready to party, you know. Well, I want to thank our panelists and I'm watching the chat. Oh, I see one coming in. Buffy says, really great presentation and congrats on getting your dean to attend. That's like a minor miracle, right? Yes, it was. I had a champion when I started my program with the 52 university classes. Our vice president of academic affairs and he came out into world. Then our president for a while, Mary Jane Paulson, also came out into world. So I was very impressed with that. Let's see. We do have a question from Lucena Wisdomseeker. How can I get your online tutorials? I will gladly, as a matter of fact, I have to hold my phone because I have to use Skype on my phone. I will type the tutorials, the link. They're all right now out on Google sites. And I have anything from just the basic walk around to how to build. And so I will put the link here and gladly share them. And I think a question went by too. Would any of these students want to work with OpenSim people? And I will pretty much speak for them, but I think they would be delighted to. And if you could contact me or some of the students directly, I think you're going to find that. And when our institute meets again on Monday night, I will bring that forward. I think they would, depending on where they stand in their career and their, you know, also adults working, they also are pursuing a master's. But I think in theory, they would love to continue to work with others. So yes, I would say that's a very possible area and we'll make some contacts there. Oh, and Selie, by the way, is she, I'm, you know, 101 virtual world. Selie is the advanced course. She has created many wonderful tutorials to with non-playing characters. She teaches all about scripting. So I can teach you how to do the nuts and bolts, put the buildings down. She can teach you how to really go in an advanced way. So please do keep up with us. Thanks, Eileen. And Lisa Laxton had a question. Do you have a wish list for what you need technology-wise? Well, I wish all of my students who are at a distance could have robust technologies themselves. They could have powerful computers, good internet. What I would like, I mean, if I really just could have my druthers, a web-based interface. So I don't have to go through the challenge of getting people signed on. The other problem I'm having, if people work from home, they can generally sign on. If they're trying to come in from a school or an institution, downloading Firestorm is a real problem. They often have locks down. Some of the new Macs right now, we're not being able to download Firestorm. We're working on that. I am my own tech support and I'm not smart enough to know all the combinations. So I would like to have an easier interface to download. Also, it would be nice to have the 3D environment. There will always be a learning curve in terms of how you get your avatar to walk and talk. So that will always be there. But an easier way to get in would be very nice. It looks like one, Gimisa tried to use your link and it did not work for him. So we'll have to run that down later. Yeah, what about putting the HTTPS in front of it, that might work. Okay, and let me, I'm trying to put my phone down and get the link to some of my tutorials as well. Because I think we will and we'll be sure that you folks do know how to reach out to us if you're interested in finding out more about some of the islands we've created. The PowerPoint, excuse me, well, the PowerPoint that prompted the slides actually has the names of all of the islands in Kipley. If anyone wants to come visit the work that these wonderful students have done. And I'm sure they would be quite delighted to be able to continue on. We had one more question as we wrap up. Rhianna asks, how can we go about becoming part of the Institute or participating in the think tank? Just send me your email. And my email is just my name. It's Eileen, E-I-L-E-E-N dot O'Connor, O-C-O-N-N-O-R. And at ESC.edu, typing it in. And we will be glad to put you on our mailing list, which leaves you the option of joining us or not, but we can keep you apprised of what we're doing. And we need some thinkers to help us think. And we have a very good professional development process going. We have meetings. We are developing a collegial support, but I think we need more of a framework too. So we'll put you to work. Thank you, Eileen. And thanks to our panelists. What a terrific presentation.