 I'll go ahead and call to order the meeting. June 26th meeting of the Montpelier Planning Commission. First, we have to approve the agenda, so I'll take a motion to approve and you're ready. I'll move to approve the agenda. Okay. Motion for Marianne. Do we have a second? I'll second. Second for Maria. Those in favor of approving the agenda, say aye. Aye. Aye. Okay. Gender approved and we will move on. Comments from the chair, I don't have anything new. It looks like we're going forward with our summer plans. I think things are moving along like we expected to get through some of these things. Does anybody else have any meetings or any updates or anything? Okay. Did have one question for Mike, actually, I'll just do that now. Mike, we had talked about some ideas that some of the stuff that came from Habitat, like including the state program for expansion centers. I remember the name exactly. I just want to make sure that we're still planning on including that in the zoning changes that are coming up. Is that correct? Yeah, there are going to be a number of other changes that are in the zoning. But the public input meeting that we're, you know, the whatever we want to call it, that input meeting that we want to have in July is really about kind of having the conversations around the housing pieces. But there will be a bunch of other pieces in there. Okay. Okay, that sounds good. I just wanted to, I mean, I thought that we were still on track with that. I just, we hadn't talked about that in a little while. I just wanted to double check in. Okay. Can I just, sorry, can I just jump in where the Habitat changes, like expanding the downtown district or what were, can you remind me what they were? Uh, there's a, there's this, the state, I mean, I don't want to say that this has directly anything to do with habitat. It's just in my mind, it's connected because habitat is something that would be useful for the Habitat project. But there's a, there's a state program and Mike can explain more, but it's just a gross center thing that kind of eases some of the state regulation for certain projects. And, but, but cities are partly in control of deciding where those. Places are, you're referring to doing the NDAs, the neighborhood designation areas. Right, neighborhood designation areas is, is it, yeah, as neighborhood, because yeah, it's about, it's about residential development. Um, yeah, I'm curious whether, I mean. Whether we'd want to add it to the bridge, if we, I mean. It is, it seems like it's related to housing to me. Um, so it would be expanding the neighborhood development area or establishing one. Establishing, establishing one because we don't have one, but it doesn't actually require any zoning changes. We've, we've done our review of the regulations. We think we're okay. We can apply. But we're, it kind of come down to the timing. We want to adjust the growth center designation as well. So we kind of want to package these up into one item to do the growth center designation. We need to amend the zoning, the zoning. We don't need to for the NDA, but you can attach the NDA to the growth center. So it kind of would save, save a bit of work if we had the growth center done already. But we do have a growth center. We just need to adjust some things about it. Okay. Yeah. The country club is not in the growth center. The country club road. So we need to make an adjustment to add that in. Yeah. I mean, to me, that seems worthwhile to add to the bridge draft. And I did correspond with Evelyn a little bit from the city. And I think what I drafted is a little bit short of what a typical short commentary for the bridge might be. So anyway, this might be worth putting that in there seems to me. Okay. Yeah. That's something to keep in mind. And it's going to be on the agenda. So what I'm hearing is we could, we can think about some other things to include. Sounds good. All right. So I'm going to move on the agenda unless anybody has anything else in the comments to share arena. Next on our agenda is comments from the general public. We have none present online. Do we have any present in person, Mike? No. Okay. So no one's present for comments. They're general business. So then we get into what we were just talking about. Arion drafted a bridge article for us to review. I went in this morning and I don't think I really left any comments myself. Does anybody else? Does anybody have anything to say about it? We have Maria and we have Gabe. I'm only just realizing it's not a Google doc. So I can't because I haven't seen anything I've done. I made tweaks here and there to wrap the whole thing. So I don't know what's the best way to share them with all of you. How about we just we make a Google doc out of it? Do you want to? Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm terrible with Google docs, but Maria, can you put it in Google docs? Let me see. Well, maybe Gabe can talk while I'm trying to do this. Okay. All I was going to say was thank you, Arion. I thought it was well done. I didn't tweak anything, but I just appreciate you putting the work in. I just made a folder for you, Maria. So you can just open up. I made a folder called bridge article. So you can just create a document in that folder. You should just drag and drop. Yeah, I think we actually have an outreach folder. Actually, let me delete that folder. Just put it in the outreach folder. And yeah, I appreciated it, Arion. I didn't have any major things to add myself, but it is it would probably be good for us to think about if there's any other subject matter we want to include. Well, you know, I was going to ask too, do you guys usually, I don't know if this I'm trying to envision what if this is something like a commentary type? I mean, it seems plenty long to me, but I certainly adding more topics as we brainstorm, but I didn't know if we wanted to have a if we can include a graphic or a description of what the design review district is for ordinary people who may not know what that area town is. So they talk about stuff inside it, and then we talk about stuff outside of it. Just thinking about putting everything at the elementary school level. I think that's a good idea. I think we might have to talk to Parage about whether they Yeah, we can easily provide them. I mean, we have the map for the district on the city website. So easy to provide, but if they wanted to print it or how they wanted to do it, would you would you be okay with doing that? Arion, just like I think it's good to like, you know, keep you as the contact for this with between the like to be our liaison with the bridge and just discuss with them whether they would like to include a map of the design review district. Yeah, if Evelyn from the city can help me and it sounded like she wanted to be involved in that process. As you're as you're gathering from my problem with Google Docs, I'm like terrible with technology. So if someone can help me, I'm totally fine to be the contact. Yeah, yeah, I think that's good. And you can always just if you as far as the map goes, you can you can reach out to me anytime and I can send you a link to the, you know, to the map on the city website that we would ask bridge to just include. Okay, great. Just, you know, an overall map to show what urban one urban two, you know, those not everyone knows the districts in town. Because of proximity to the downtown has kind of helped the argument right a lot in in a couple of cases here. Yeah, the other conversation that we might want to have about the article is so when we were talking about this we were initially talking about, you know, maybe July 10th having this meeting with the public and then July 24th having kind of a city plan kickoff meeting. The one issue that comes up is that the bridge is by the time we need to send the article to the bridge, I don't know if it's going to be I think it appears on the wealth is the next issue. So we might need to push our schedule out one one set of meetings so that way we would be doing the zoning on the 24th and then the city plan on the August 14th. I don't know or something or we can push to an in between week or pick a special date or something else. There's other possibilities. I think tentatively that that should be fine. I think we had plans to possibly not meet in August, but if we know that there's not too many conflicts if we can still get a quorum for August 14th we could go with that plan and if it turns out we don't we could use that would be the city plan meeting. Yeah I mean if we push it to September it just may mean that I'm working with SE Group and rather than doing four of the chapters we may be doing you know almost all of them because we need to start getting the public hearing process going on those. So I mean we may break it into pieces and do four of them on one and then four of four or five of them on one and four or five of them at the next meeting and kind of break the hearings into two groups. I think that could potentially be okay though. We can like if we have any more input later we can still have that opportunity during the public hearing process right? Yeah. So I think it'd be okay because yeah we don't even have confirmation that the bridge will be able to to print this right away do we? Like we don't have any certainty about that or I'm just shook her head. Yeah I mean Evelyn from the city just emailed and said the submission deadline I think is July 7th for that mid July so right they could be they could have a full issue already. Although she told me they're usually looking usually scrambling for articles during the summer because it's more difficult to get there's less going on there's usually not much going on in the legislature usually not much going on in the city because so many people are on vacations. Okay well we can be optimistic that we can get that done but yeah I'll leave it to you guys to sort that out. Yeah that was it. We would have to submit by July 7th in order for the addition that comes out on the 12th and our meeting is on the 10th so that was the trick. My understanding is like after this meeting we could possibly submit just ASAP right? Yes but the next article still doesn't come out till the 12th. Yeah so it doesn't matter how early we send it it still won't come out on the 12th so if we have a hearing on the 10th the article will come out after the hearing. Yeah I think I'm good with us kicking things back and then in the meantime we have other things too. And if we get through the more of the storyboards and that's more information for SE Group to continue working on. Yeah that sounds fine. Yeah that sounds fine. We can also talk about some shading outreach possibly. I don't know yeah yeah we have stuff to think about. Is everybody good with that plan? Just pushing things back a little bit just to make sure that the bridge article lines up with our public hearing instead of being in the wrong order. Okay do we Maria do you have a version for us on the drive? Yep I also just sent a link via the chat the zoom chat to it. Did you guys see that? I only sent it to Mike. I'm not sure why. Well it looks good. Just to you. Well it is there for everybody else. I can see if I can find it. Oh it's in the chat so I'd have to adjust the chat. I'm not seeing it in the outreach folder. Oh did I put it in the wrong I put it in a spot called zoning changes. Okay 2023. Oh does everybody happy summer okay yeah I could just share it from there then. It's in the chat now or it should be assuming I didn't mess up the chat. Okay let's just take a minute and review. I don't think all the edits came through exactly as I did them but yeah Maria why don't you just go ahead and walk us through what you're thinking and then we'll. In the first paragraph I wanted to make it clear these were just ideas that we were throwing out there and not amendments that we were really pushing for you know. So I think that first paragraph I had I can't see. Okay so my edit would be to write something. I have a comment on the side there. We wanted to provide an update on our recent work as well as highlight some changes to the zoning regulations we've considered and response to citizen requests that we hope to open to public discussions soon. So just making it seem like we aren't completely tied to these ideas just yet and that we are really looking for public input. Oh okay I can't see your comments and I'm just Oh really? Well I don't know why I'm looking at it yeah I can't see that comment at least I don't know if it's because it's at the top of the page and I just want to make sure I have your comments to edit it but I'm not sure why. It's like a super long comment. Oh okay it was just like hidden at the top okay I think I've got it. Yeah what do people think about do you have a preference for an opening? I know the word that you used at the last meeting was that you wanted it to be a listening session for the Planning Commission to hear from the public and I kind of like the way that sounded you know we have some ideas but this is a listening session to hear what people think but I don't know how to work that into what your input I think was good. I think we would also want to have the date when it says input soon we probably I think would want to go and put that date of July 24th just in case the only thing somebody reads if they only read the opening paragraph they would know they would hear the date they may not read the whole thing but they'll know that. But I apologize I'm super late so this might have already been spoken about but isn't AARP no longer it's just the acronym now right? I think it is just an acronym now. Oh that's weird so they don't spell out what they are I just thought that was like yeah they read they read they rebrand I think they changed their incorporation so that they're now just AARP. Okay I'm going to share a screen and we can just edit at the same time and get it done the fastest that way I think. I actually lost part of Maria's comment but I did add at the bottom here instead of soon for we will bring the part about the listening session on June on July 24 but the middle part we wanted to provide an update on our recent work as well as highlights and changes to citizen requests that we will bring to public friend put it in a listening session on July 24 so that's that's the full and okay Ariane's nodding like that seems fine does it seem fine Ariane if that's the answer? Yeah I think that captured what I wrote down from stomach so yeah. Yeah I think so too. Anybody have anything else for that? Or we go to the next? Try to change the font though that's not the font but the other part or is it okay next paragraph may you have something there? Yeah I just I kind of I understood what Ariane meant by we anticipate will be completed but that also sounded very final to me and so my language is to make it a little bit looser and to say we've been busy working on a final draft of the city plan which will be ready for public input and comment by and then just put a date there. I think saying completed just sounded a bit too final. What would be our estimate this fall? Do you have an idea Mike? Yeah so we're talking city plan ready for public comment. I mean we've been saying July and that was why we were just talking about August I mean if we wanted to say by this fall I think we would be okay I would still like to be earlier than that but we could say late summer or early fall that would that would be fine. Was that was that the only thing you have Maria for this paragraph? Yeah. Is that good for you? Is that good for everybody else? Do we want to remind people what the city plan is here? That's a good idea. I mean just kind of remind we can't assume everyone knows what it is. I'm just looking at my other computer that has it. I don't know what the elevator pitch is for the Montpelier city plan. I'm gonna give it a rough stab we'll say strategic plan for the city over the next x years. I think it might be best to make it an added I don't mean to totally wordsmith this thing but I think it's made the best to I like Brian's I had the suggestion just say something we've been working on the final draft of the city plan you know which is a document that we update that was it every seven years you know the outlines the city's city's goals you know for the next however many years in that period we anticipate that it'll be ready for public comment. Are you I'll just I'll just say what you just said Aaron which is or which guides so you said which which outlines this you know the city's priorities and identifies priorities and outlines priorities and ways to and act on them. It's really good. What about just saying outlines the city's planning priorities over the next eight years? I think that's probably good. I think before Aaron you said goals which I liked because that's how the plan is drafted like goals and priorities maybe over the next eight years. We'll anticipate it we'll be ready for okay. I'm sorry but did we want I just was noted that do we want to further the well I don't know if we want to be more specific about I don't want people to be confused about a listening session and then we talk about public comment in the second paragraph so is the public comment would be the part of the formal approval right the ultimate final approval process for the plan whereas the listening session we're positioning that as kind of an interim you know pregame of a official public comment right so so public comment itself right is a term that's a charged term for us because we know that means that we're going to like public hearings right official stuff. Yeah maybe it's more to like we anticipate the draft will be a release to the public by late summer early fall. Did we want to shift that paragraph to the bottom maybe that second paragraph I mean we're opening by talking about the zoning and maybe it makes sense to just continue with our zoning and then shift that to the bottom as you know I was I was thinking that that's I think that's the most confusing thing about it. Well I guess that was one of my questions too I had was our primary mission of the commission is the city plan I mean obviously we're doing zoning amendments too but I those came along later from in my tenure the zoning amendments I don't know if this is. So we're equally charged with both just to be clear. Well no I hear you I hear you I hear you. I'm sure we are I'm sure we are I just didn't know what we're we're going to focus on out of the gate is the work on the plan or the zoning amendments I guess it from what everything you guys are saying it should be zoning amendments because they're going to take more time potentially to explain or they might be more controversial than the plan. I don't want all the work done on the city plan to be lost in the beginning I mean oh and by the way we're working on the city plan. Well I mean I will say that I feel like the city plan talk is optional because it wasn't the goal of this particular outreach. Right. It's like it's actually kind of the bonus item. So that makes sense. At the end by the way we're still working on the plan. I'll throw it also in there to just to signify that different topic here. Is everybody okay with doing that moving it down like that? In that way it's I mean I just scanning through this it's like yeah with all the rest of this is about zoning changes. So keeping all of that stuff together without interruption I think makes a lot of sense especially since it's so short too. I'm sorry I haven't gone to the last couple meetings. The focus of this I guess notice and the paper is primarily what the zoning changes and then yes just noticing new to saying the listening session. Yeah that's the goal of this one is about about the zoning changes like housing in particular. I mean there's gonna be a bunch of different zoning changes that we're considering but it's like this one's focusing more on the housing stuff that will be suggesting change. In that case again I think it makes sense to just at the bottom of the to sort of say at the bottom of this just you know we also want to let you know that we're continuing to work on you know we continue our work on the city plan which outlines the city's goals and priorities and we expect to have that completed you know draft released to the public by this fall and you know we look forward to you know hearing your input is that project progressing as well or something like that. Yeah that's yeah so we're going for so Maria did you have more on the second on the next paragraph? Well later in the paragraph I just took out I guess we need to change the Vermont Association of Retired Persons just to AARP right? And then I also just whoa. And then I just try to simplify the last sentence. I'm fine with this is everybody else okay? What are you on? Do you think do you think it's okay? Is there something missing from here? What you're going for? Bunch of stuff on the screen covering up buttons but it's going to delete it. And I'm sorry to believe in this but this was the report from CNU and AARP remote. Yeah does anybody else know that? I'll stop their heads. It's easy for us to find out. We're busy trying to edit but I can throw Vermont in there if we can confirm. I looked back at the report it did say I don't know if it's AARP Vermont or Vermont AARP but it said one of the two. I can double check. I think in Vermont it's AARP Vermont I think. I'll double check it right now but you're right that's what it is I just Aaron you were right it's AARP Vermont. I think buttons are covering up but I need here all right I did not do what I wanted to do. I'm missing where I can accept these changes. I think they were comments not changes so you just have to hit the check box or actually maybe if you hit the check box yeah there it goes. Thank you that is what I was missing and Ariane you're not the only Luddite around. So we don't have anything for the next one just to keep things same I keep going back to single spacing on this. I think that's what correct me if I'm wrong but does anybody know does the bridge prefer double spacing? I don't think they do So Maria what was your next? So this was more just trying to reflect how Mike described this in the last meeting that you know when I went through each of these recommendations I was just like wait are we doing all of this or is this you know like I'm trying to envision it from an outsider's perspective and it seemed overlapping you know because like wait they can double but then they can also have up to four like what are all these options and so make it clear that this is like a menu of options that we came up with but these aren't going to be and that they're still in like we're still brainstorming these ideas this is just what we've come up with so far so I think what I'm not sure maybe look at what I wrote so it can just be like the planning commission has come up with the following zoning changes or has I had trouble thinking of like the language this would be but what about is currently considering the following recommendations or is concerned that's currently considering like suggesting some of or I mean the captures that yeah we may do some we may end up suggesting some but not all kind of ideas for consideration so it's maybe it's a menu of ideas for consideration so okay say has developed the following ideas for consideration where is it so that people understand that it's not all or nothing you know this is just they can pick and choose for adventure okay so this is the uh like like are we good I'm going to move on as long as are we good with develop the following menu of ideas for consideration yeah so okay so the next thing is the the map idea so we talked about this before we're gonna Ariane's gonna reach out as part of this to see if the bridge will include a map of the design review district with the article I know they have print and web versions I imagine one might be easier than the other for them um what's the uh what's the next thing Maria sorry if you need me to I know I'm not sure about the also's because it makes it sound like Amanda that we are considering all these things and this that I'm going back up to the bullet points got you have a comment here but I was just kind of thinking about it because it made it seem like these things would be done in conjunction with each other as opposed to their again that menu of options idea um but we are also considering doubling the density makes it seem like we are going to be doing this in addition to doubling the density so I wasn't sure if just taking out also just to make it seem like these are all independent ideas but I don't know what do you guys think I'm fine I'm fine either way I think the also could be considered as a I mean I would interpret that as an either or a an and or type type thing but which is I think how it's intended I'm not sure how other people would interpret it I mean since we positioned it as a menu I think we also is okay what I was looking at was the second sentence of the third bullet thought that you guys said that was kind of like the third rail of zone changes or what happened that was that was I mean I don't know if it's an incremental step towards I guess it probably is um it also would allow more more infill of housing right I mean I don't know if we want to talk about eliminating then you guys are making me paranoid about a mention mentioning eliminating density caps because of what you said happened before oh well I mean I don't know I think I think what from what happened I mean I could see people coming in with like this is a slippery slope you know so I had the same thought looking through that so I don't know in some ways it would be nice to eliminate them I mean we know that that's the that's the recommendation from the think tanks that that's the best way and I don't know how to expect I don't know what to expect honestly about about how people react this time around yeah I don't and I mean we could take that one out and also I'm not sure we need the outside the design review district because it kind of is a menu so we could just double density in all the districts if they don't if if the public doesn't select the first option then we would double the density in the design review district as well all districts right how about taking that sentence out and then just reaffirming that this would help create more housing in my failure because all the other ones talk about housing well yeah like this is the pro of doing that well do we need the potentially I mean it would allow for more housing development wouldn't it just we don't know if it'll actually happen yeah I mean that's what I'm getting at it would it would yes it would technically allow for more but but would would that lead to anything we don't know it was just true for any of these changes when we we don't know the the degree to which density is that is stopping development anyway like by itself because this is it's a very complicated issue okay should I take out potentially I would say so you would yeah okay are there any other bullet points we wanted to and are people okay with that bullet point yeah you seem to take out we are considering also the fourth bullet point to the commission is also considering that's going to be in there what parts do I take out because at the top it says the planning commission has developed the following menu of ideas for consideration eliminate density caps expanding the density exemption doubling the density in all districts and eliminating density caps we don't need to put in here considering good point it's a good point I like the consistency of that I think the fourth bullet point is also infusing for people who don't know you know what urban center one two three are you know is there going to be can there be a map of what that means or that asking too much to have I'll probably clip down as I mean because they're in the design review district so I'm at the shows design review district will show those boundaries as well I just need to clip it down yeah and I maybe I should just change it to more general language rather than using the names of the districts and just say like currently the area downtown is I mean I don't know if that's correct to say yeah I'd say I think it's I think it's helpful to steer clear of as best we can or at least if we're going to say something like design review district say you know the design review district which you know generally you know located near the urban core of the pound you know just to kind of give some layman's context to what we're talking about I'm going to guess that anybody who's in design review is going to know that they're there but for the casual reader they want to kind of get some sense of whether or not this is something that affects them or not just sort of general kind of location cues would be helpful I think understanding that they're not on really great they're not particularly precise but I don't know that matters at this point what do you guys think about this change just saying currently the three neighborhoods that make up the downtown do not have density requirements we could extend this to other high density districts that are adjacent to the downtown I would say currently the downtown currently downtown neighborhoods do not have a density requirement okay in sec do you think they were districts so you said I would just I would just say downtown the downtown neighborhoods do not have a density requirement everybody okay with this paragraph then as it is now let's go to the next paragraph we're being thorough about this outreach this is a group effort right here already um Maria yeah I just changed some of the language and again I think we should change the input session to listening session to discuss these proposals I just wanted to make it clear again that we were looking for input and that what we we're going to suggest really are suggestions and not something concrete that we're settled on there's a lot of proposal proposed in that sense so maybe that could be fine tuned but we're we're saying listening sessions instead of public input or instead of input listening public input but I'm sorry public listening I don't know listening session or public listening session what do you think Mike I don't know if it matters thing it just depends how it sounds in the sentence and I would say we'll be we'll be holding listening sessions not planning them we'll be holding them or hosting that's always nice I like that it implies like we providing cocktails or something but that's where people can think that fortunately the wood stove will not be fired up in July um I accidentally clicked on some of like to accept some of Maria's stuff so I accidentally did that but so I'm not sure we talked about some of the stuff I accept already but so we'll be hosting listening sessions to discuss these proposals yeah as well as collect additional proposals from the public but where any proposed changes move forward to the official public hearings people okay with that sentence you can probably change the additional proposals to additional ideas we're trying to cut down on the number proposals we could probably take out the any proposed changes move forward it can just say any changes move forward we hope that these listening sessions will be scheduled later this summer next paragraph what's that starting paragraph yeah we we think that sentence sentence goes up I'm sorry I'm sorry it's new paragraph to be it's starting it we have also been busy working on the draft final draft city plan the next time this is the paragraph break yeah what happened here I'm we've also okay how about we intend to schedule well actually it's already been scheduled up top so we should just go and say the session's going to be July 24th yeah thank you at the regular planning commission meeting from 530 to 730 we could uh just just a just a note that there if the bridge in there at least in their web version can link to a to the city website where you can log into to a meeting that might be helpful there just like something that you could possibly bring up or when you when you discuss it with the bridge I'm sorry what did you say that was in this where we talk about when the session will be if it could be a link in that sentence or that yeah a link like at least in their web version to the city's webpage for for the public meetings yeah okay I think that's how most people get into these meetings is navigating through the city website to that page I assume I go ahead and put the date up top too so that they're not it's like a clickbait thing where we can people dig for the info and we're only planning to have one listening session is that right because it's plural up above we'll be hosting listening sessions just not what that same paragraph at the bottom the second set yep we will be hosting listening sessions thank you listening sessions do you think it's worth it to say this at the end also um just just might just say later in the fall just so people don't think that it's like happening we're having a listening session then a public hearing it right after it yeah I just want people to people who are familiar enough with public hearings to see the listening session and think that we're just kind of doing a branding thing calling the public hearing something else for them to realize like no this is different is that okay for everyone to put that I think um just tweaking the sentence to make it like active language later in the fall we will hold public hearings yeah this is something like more for more formal public hearing yeah fall it will will occur later in the fall there try to combine both ideas and keep it active as Maria said is it okay later in the fall we will schedule formal public hearings yeah is it okay or yeah okay doke uh that's it so um let's um if I was if I was nitpicking I would say like we we've capitalized planning commission sometimes and and other times don't and maybe the city too it may be city too but I think it's just I think it's just because it was new content you just yeah I let's see I mean I don't know what the AP says about that but I'm pretty sure as long as we're consistent I don't think it's a big deal important enough to be capitalized I think the royal commission right the the planning commission it's interesting interesting English language question here uh is it really a pronoun when we talk when we refer to the regular planning commission meetings though thoughts on characterization in that context I will say I would say this session will take place during our regular scheduled planning commission meeting on July 24th from 5 30 to 7 30 I think during our regular okay we yeah we have been talking like that and so some of this yeah I would just say regularly scheduled because what is a regular meeting as opposed to a regular one a special one this day actual answer to that because we're doing a listening session suggests that this is not a regular meeting this will be a very intimate friendly we're hosting it there'll be there'll be cocktails I know I thought there was a provider there's gonna be cocktails I want to start a rumor about that um okay there we go just and I was just thinking I I do I do like the kind of um I like the I very much enjoy the the the opening sentence happy summer from your planning commission in that same vein I think given what we've listed out here I might be good to the tone wise to say something we'd like to invite you to a listening session um you know to uh in response to some zoning regular changes that we're considering uh this part of regular works something a little more conversational on tone I think would be helpful and I think the idea of an invitation as a way to open this up would be a nice summer thing to do uh are you thinking is this like a second sentence after happy summer yeah I just say something like you know happy summer happy summer for your planning planning commission um we'd like to invite you to a listening session in response to some zoning changes that we're currently considering and then to say like you know doesn't that this thing session that held on July 24th we have to put the time at this point to say like you know just July 24th and if they're if they are interested in invitation they will need them on and I'm sorry okay before before I proceed this is all this stuff I just don't have anything different for some weird reason in this document so it's okay but I'm just what I'm afraid of is like changing and then people being like no I liked it better before I'm like I don't know how to go back but then I'll stop well we're apologize it's too late it's already started uh we'd like to invite you to a listening session regarding some of our recent work is what I have so far I would say in response to some zoning regulations that we currently consider you guys want me to change this to in response Mike's nodded I'll take a single nod okay zoning changes yeah yeah we have been considering period it's hard to fit in the citizen requests at this point I don't know that we need to put that in it's included later I liked it here because I wanted to make it clear that we weren't just coming up with this willy nilly or that this was being spearheaded by the planning department or the planning commission that we are already responding to citizen requests for zoning changes although maybe I'm being like Brian I'm just being a bit paranoid about the response we're new it's frightened easily I feel like they've teed us up to be paranoid I know I was like so I'm so paranoid you shouldn't be paranoid it's kind of like getting punched in the face like once you've what's just happened once you'll I mean I've happened to me a lot I just don't yeah I remember it felt like by time on the planning commission it felt like a punch to the face so I think that's good but I don't think we need in response in the second sense then right some of our recent work about or I don't know that just sounds confusing to me I would just say regarding some zoning changes we've been considering regarding yeah good regarding regarding some zoning changes yep I like that better too should we call it with this okay do we have a like Brian's comment to add the Montpelier in front just for this first new planning commission just in case the bridge does get out a little bit beyond just Montpelier so okay that's that's fair for the sake of trying to not impersonate the east Montpelier or berry planning conditions and yeah yeah these other city these other city offices are getting lots of calls angry calls eaming and berry yeah okay I just wanted to say I hope everyone on the commission could invite some people to the listening session that you think might be interested in the topic or have ideas or thoughts about zoning changes you know I feel like we have I'm sure we all know at least a dozen people who are curious and interested in this topic and hopefully we can get a good turnout I think that I think that's a really great point and I'll be mentioning this to some people I know and I'm going to be even more uh conscientious to reach out to people when it comes to the city council meeting too because that's like you know that's the big the moment of truth time but yeah any of these meetings you know getting the word out is going to it's going to add value I would I would hope yeah can I just do some add some suggestions to tighten this up a little bit okay on the second paragraph we are also planning we don't we're not also planning it's that's not really where I would just say we will be bringing forward proposed zoning amendments or we are yeah that has that is the fact that let me step around we move paragraphs around which is probably yeah yeah I know that's what I'm just saying we are bringing forward and and then I'd say and not the ARP I would just say and ARP Vermont in the second yeah oh yeah we never yeah it's fine we've never made that change actually oh but we verified it's yeah yeah okay thank you thank you and then ARP Vermont promotes I and then this is just largely I get wary of plugging like making representations about what ARP Vermont and CNU generally do I don't know that it's our job to kind of characterize what it is they do I just don't I always get a little wary about that like you don't know their mission statement that came from the letter that they sent to us I'm assuming that's what I read that I did take off their website but I just wanted to be clear that CNU was really the one that wrote the report I guess but yeah yeah thanks thanks Ariane and I feel comfortable since we're using their words to describe them okay that's cool so then so then in the fourth line down in that paragraph it's again ARP Vermont I was gonna take a motion to prove this when we're ready and at the same time I want to say that we should probably include in that motion because because we did do some tinkering here that we should entrust Ariane to make any grammatical changes that she needs to record smithing in case there's something we missed before she proceeds to just want to say that yeah this is for a motion do we want to also say you know Evelyn from the city said she would take a look at it and I don't know she has some other you know we could say like non substantive changes or something like that that she might like I may have missed does Evelyn work in the city manager's office is that yeah she's the city's new communication director okay so we finally we finally have somebody who is officially a communications director who actually has the background and experience and training in it so she's very good at what she does okay that makes that makes sense because I you know I missed last meeting so I'm not this this connection between Ariane and Neville and I missed out on that but okay do we have any other changes before we're ready to vote this out I'm sorry I'm just I'm trying to get this tightened up as best I can the first pair the first sentence in the third paragraph the report recommend removing the density caps for all zoning districts in the city I again that this is in line with trying to stay away from technical verbiage and making this more accessible I think the second the second sentence does a good job of contextualizing what density caps are or sort of defining it and the more accessible way I would say like the report recommend removing removing the certain limitations on the number of units allowed per square feet also known as density caps in zoning districts throughout the city I just maybe I'm being too I'm wondering if people will know if that means if they truly don't know like you know if they're coming from a place where they don't know what density caps are would they with this can I get your point get your point no I get yeah I just don't I don't want to make it a crazy word sell it to get there those so I'm there's a balancing act there I'm just how about the report recommended removing zoning regulations that limit the number of units allowed per square foot yeah also known as density caps that's yeah and maybe units I think is also like housing units did you say based on square foot so you said yeah I think you can delete that section you have square footage there you go yeah you know instead of saying parcel based on square footage number of housing units based on lot size yeah people think of things in terms of lots okay that's like yeah number housing units based on a lot size that's that's the same that's also known as density caps so otherwise yeah otherwise this sounds weird it's like it's creates a comparison supposed to a inclusive aka sorry I just always get I'm always sort of sensitive to the idea that like we sometimes lose sight of what we know and assume others know it especially with these things really agree so we don't need the second sentence or no well I think cleaning up the for all zoning districts in the city or is that okay never mind never mind about it in all zoning districts I think the second one still adds some context or like helps fully explain if someone didn't get it with the person it should be currently a certain number of units are allowed per square foot not is allowed units are what's a certain number is allowed that's why the word processors not telling us wrong the operative isn't the number it should be units number let's see if we change the are if it tells us it's wrong thanks Google I could be wrong I'm not a particular I don't think Google's just a bit picky about grammar I'd say just the are everybody good with our we don't need to worry too much about that okay so with that I will take a motion to entrust our on to a motion to approve this article for publication on our behalf uh and you know with um while granting Ari on the power to make any worth smithing or grammatical change is necessary to uh you know publish it anyone want to make that motion I'll make that motion with the express horizon that entrusting Ari on with such power is brought with yeah I know I hope it doesn't put her on the path to evil uh so we have a motion from Erin do we have a second I'll second second from Maria those in favor of the motion say aye aye can you post can you abstain okay so that's uh uh two three four so yeah we're just missing John right so so six zero vote favor passing okay thanks so much for your work on this thanks Maria for your extra review and thanks everybody else for helping tonight so it's saved in uh just to make sure we for future reference it's it's saved in the zoning changes folder on the google drive I stopped sharing right yes thank you okay we move on the agenda which is to finalize approval storyboard outlines for transportation natural resources I have not uh been involved with this too much so um Mike uh what what do you have in mind for for the sip do we need to just do we need to vote on this um do we um I guess obviously we need to ask people have any final comments but I take it that there was work done in the last meeting about it yeah there were a couple of outstanding pieces now that I turned those off now I gotta go find them again that's right there all the word storyboards all right so we went through this one the transportation at the last meeting I went through I believe I accepted all of these this down um link to the complete streets playing yes that is the information oh on this one the only change that I had to make for this meeting uh we didn't approve it was we had two committees that weren't discussed so I added in we've got uh on failure has two communities dedicated transportation the transportation infrastructure committee and complete streets committee uh m tick is tasked with advising city council on policies infrastructure improvements related transportation um and then the complete streets so if anyone's take a quick read those two that was those were the only two additions that needed to be made don't have any comments changes no no looks good all right all right looks good Mike all right then I will stop sharing that one and open natural resources so natural resources we um I think that it's the only piece we need to look at yes so the change here and unfortunately so I went through accepted most of the other changes and then was trying to work on this planning context and as I talk about this I think everyone else will start to remember it we were trying to fix this thing and unfortunately when I made the changes I kind of deleted what was already there so now we're really kind of stuck having to go back we had to um but the idea was we really wanted to capture the fact that um the planning context for natural resources is that we are the compact historic settlement and a lot of what we do is by absorbing growth we're helping to protect the natural resources surrounding us um but at the same time we also have some of these these things that we care about um like water quality and land conservation so I tried to rewrite it and I don't know if I hit it but I tried to capture that other sense so I'll let you guys take a look at it's the stuff in yellow where does the quotation come from exactly that's under state law that's 4302 of the title 24 are we planning on dropping like a little footnote in there to reference that or we could I think it's helpful if we're going to use quotations we should probably put a little citation in you could probably well no one way to do that would be the link to the statute on the state website I mean it was like I just we could put a little hot link in there somebody anybody have comments about this approach I like it I think we went over that language over and over again the past two meetings and I think Mike was able to consolidate all the different ideas before throwing around yeah thanks and I was gone for those meetings can I ask what's the I'm trying to distill what the what are we trying to say in the first bullet point the economy growth in order to reduce the pressure to develop for us and farmlands so the planning context is trying to lay out our goals so it's it's kind of kicking off our laying out of our goals and what we're trying to accomplish in in in this case natural resources and one of our key points that that the public doesn't generally see is that a lot of our protection of natural resources actually comes from accommodating growth accommodating growth in the urban core of the urban zone is I would know just accommodating growth within the city of Montpelier mostly you know anywhere we have some rural lands but really Montpelier is the compact settlement that protects the rural countryside and that's one of the points because you know sometimes like we don't protect we don't regulate the protection of primal soils in the city of Montpelier we're going to lose that we're going to build on it here in the city because by building on our soils here within our boundaries and hooking to sewer and water and accommodating density we're not we're you know that development is not being forced out into east Montpelier and these other rural places where you know those ag soils are actually helping farms okay that makes sense and if I just might suggest them saying I think adding growth are accommodating growth within the city to reduce development in forest and far and neighboring forest and farmlands within the city yeah it's just that the accommodating growth was is not sufficiently contextualized I understand that are accommodating accommodating within the city in order to reduce the pressure to develop I would just say to reduce the development and neighboring forest and farmlands we're to did we want to reduce the pressure to develop or to reduce the development pressure I mean isn't isn't the idea if you reduce the pressure it actually reduces development and like they're the same right the objective is to reduce development period in neighboring communities ah okay reduced development do we want to have reduced development on farm and forest lands in our neighboring communities yeah I think okay yeah it's just the the reduced pressure I don't understand what it means you can just say to reduce development they can make sense good yeah and I would just say instead of in order to reduce I would just say coming in growth within city to reduce development on forest and reduce development in neighboring forests and farmlands I don't know something like that you could say forest land instead of forest to kind of make it consistent instead of saying on forest imagining people trying to build and talk trees you could say development in the forest and farm yeah put the space put the space down there forest and farmlands if I separate farm lands into two words sorry I feel bad haven't been absent for the last couple meetings to kind of parachuting and do this stuff fine it's totally fine all right that feel good and I just I'm sorry the last bullet point I would just take away no delete through okay so anybody else have any comments on on this section are we good with this being on the website okay we will get other bites to applet this one all right so now getting to the new stuff arts and culture well actually I don't know if somebody else wanted to take the take the controls of this one sure I can I can walk through and have people yeah I can stop sharing if you want to open it okay here we go arts and culture so Maria's suggestion to have the word outwardly here popular arts and cultural life represent the essence I guess that makes sense anybody good or is everybody good with that I had some things down here I did end up yeah capitalizing the scene city for pronouns for things ended up I mean I don't know this is I'm gonna start from the beginning all right I said this thing it's the same mob pillars known as a thriving artistic community that sounds like a proclamation thing that I've been trying to avoid in these like a like a self proclamation thing so change that to more of like strives to be a thriving artistic community we could use a different word beside or different verb there besides strives but what do people think about that I like it okay so yeah so in 2018 the city completed the end and I had not been calling it the art synergy plan but art synergy was the group that was created that first put the plan together so to kind of but the plan itself is called the public art master plan I mean Mike what are your thoughts and calling it the art synergy public art master plan or or I don't know like like look what's what's the way to do this correctly but also you know not make it sound like too crazy of a name yeah I'd have to look at the title but if art synergy is the company that made the public art master plan then I didn't know if that was how they named it with the art synergy master plan it was well I don't know I don't know where this like who drafted this paragraph the art synergy part so this is um se group has tried to use as much of our language as possible to pull these things together to make these draft scripts so this is probably it's something we gave them we didn't give them our synergy um like because I drafted that original thing and I was not definitely not calling it art synergy um okay well in that case I might just cut that part out like I just thought maybe there was like an official like technical reason to call it that um but I mean the title of the public the title of it is the public art master plan I double checked out this morning uh and it was drafted by something called art synergy uh and then that plan created the public arts commission um which we now use to like put the to implement the plan okay uh so in 2018 the city completed the public art master plan which articulated the mission vision goals this needs to be and goals for public art and Montpelier the plan also approach has strategies and identified resources to aid in the placement creation of maintenance of public art um the commission subsequently created the city's first public person okay we don't need that that's and that's not yeah that was that piece was wrong because I I thought I made that correction but maybe I didn't because I reviewed this before and I had the order incorrect when I first reviewed it said we created a public art commission and they created the master plan and it's not we created the master plan and a recommendation of the master plan was to create a public arts commission which is what we did afterwards thank you the people for the last sentence in that paragraph just see this chapter works in conjunction with the goals of the public art master plan I like it and supplements that plan and the work of the public art commission right oops okay so I was guest user and we have a list for the map so that's all that comment was about okay do we need to keep that just for future reference then yeah just keep that so that way that's that's coming uh so this next part is just when I went through it there was just a lot of ampersands all of a sudden and I'm like are we are we doing ampersands now like and I started to change some of them but then there were so many I was like did I did I miss the memo the ampersand memo or what we're doing this now just so just to get clarity like do we want ampersands or do we want the word and any any opinions I think it depends on how it's how we we do it we just like you said we should be consistent and and sometimes it's the arts and culture plan our arts and culture chapter and they throw the other for the other chapters that have and do we have another chapter as and I mean just I'm not I mean this is a facility are we using ampersands there as well we weren't before yeah we'll just have to check to see the for consistency but we can make the decision now that says we'll just use and and then if we if it comes up in the other one we'll fix them I'm in favor of and unless someone else has a different I'm actually an ampersand I don't know for like a branding thing I don't know yeah I sometimes use the ampersand only because a lot of times these chapters will come up in a list so we might have you know the transportation housing utilities and facilities and public safety plan and you end up with the extra and in the middle because it happens to be utilities and facilities happen to be together using the ampersand kind of makes it a single unit but I'm I'm not the top English person for how we should be correctly putting these things together I was thinking that way like the most compelling reason to possibly use ampersands if we're doing it for some kind of branding style type like like some law firms use like a plus instead of an and I mean like one of those things yeah but okay so I skipped ahead of so Maria had I was just trying to open up that paragraph that or not the paragraph open up that section I just say all of the different things that arts and culture are related to I think originally it was just economic development but we then go on to include transportation all these other things I think uh I think I I had done the first draft of that one and I and I like had hoped to flesh out some more because I kind of wrote part of it but I yeah did not write a lot so that's why I think it was limited to that do we want to add content out it looks like there yeah there is some content added I think there is good oh so this one this this where it says like in an unexpected way I just flagged this paragraph because yeah there was this was in the original this was in the original thing that we had had and so originally it said the arts and culture plan relates with the transportation utilities chapters by enhancing ordinary practical infrastructure to make it contribute to the aesthetic value of the city the arts and culture plan calls for increased functional arts such as unique by cracks and benches um like I thought that that was like that was fine but this so this paragraph has changed to like in an unexpected way it's like that confuses me because it makes it sound like the city's confused about its own plan or something like I don't know um I'm not a fan of the unexpected way either so just I just want to juxtapose these to see if like if there's a version of this paragraph that we want between those and I just wanted to ask if there are parts that people like of each one or or what we should do about this I like yours Kirby or sorry the original version I mean what you have in the comment are people okay with replacing yeah I like the original actually I'll be 11 oh we've got different font yeah all right this is all going to get pulled into their thing anyways this isn't a thing this gets put into the storyboard and they'll reformat it to whatever the storyboard format is used to let out yeah I'm just having a moment here all right we'll leave it at that um I have a question here and I think this is because I wasn't part of the um discussion of this chapter but as a person who owns an art studio in town there's there's mom Peter being a thriving artist community also depends on housing you know people can't live here so and that there is one second one of the goals is to support you know maintain and improve the many independent studios galleries theaters is that done through the planning department like who is supporting that well I mean we've got mom pillar alive we've got the um the public arts commission we do have staff Josh drum who's a art community and economic development coordinator he is he staffs the public art commission so um there's that there's also a number of other policies and programs that we do I mean lost nation theater is hosted upstairs they basically don't pay anything to be up there so we've got um small things like that using space uh the main lobby here has um art space um so we've got a number of larger and smaller things that you know now that we've got the art commission we're trying to do more um of these efforts okay so the planning department doesn't really come in well the I mean Josh works for the planning department oh okay so he he is so we don't want to add anything relating to or anything are we good or did you did did you want to uh link the chapters or anything like that Maria I don't know it it's because the paragraph opens is saying that you know we're striving for my player to have an active artist community but then I guess we're trying to do that through hiring artists to provide public art is that the idea a thriving artistic community through our through our planning uh yeah I mean there's well I mean there's the arts and cultures chapter which has it has a number of strategies for increasing the amount of art around but um this artistic community thing I don't think I don't think that was in what we originally had said uh although it's it's fine I think to include that here as a goal uh but that's that's not exactly as far as purely the planning part of it uh what what we're like necessarily trying to do through planning I think like what Mike was saying there's some things outside of the planning context that shows that Montpelier tries to support art in other ways like with Lost Nation and and various other things but uh it's a good question about like whether this plan is is tightly related to the artistic community itself yeah I'm trying to remember back to what was in the plan um the specifics I know there was some things in the art synergy plan wanting a you know an artist in residence and um a couple of pieces similar to that um and I think we had some of that conversation about the plan of you know what what is the focus I mean a lot of this is talking about arts but we also talked about well what what about culture and you know how does that fit into everything but I think one of the first pieces was Montpelier has you know call ourselves out we haven't been doing a very good job um as a municipality when it comes to art um there were a lot of private you know we've got the Savoy Theater we've got Lost Nation we've got um a lot of other art studios that are out there but the city itself wasn't doing a lot um not like uh Berry City where you know you've got a lot of statues and monuments everywhere it was um you weren't here Maria when we were talking about it but you know there's a thing in planning there's a period of time in planning which was about 1880s to about 1910 1920 which was called the city beautiful movement where cities all around um the United States and all around the world really invested in public art and beauty and that's where all the statues come in if you look in other communities you will see a lot of these statues and monuments whether they're war monuments or statues to certain figures they all came out they were all put up in the same period of time it was a big movement and for for some reason and somehow Montpelier got completely missed um there's very little public art from the city beautiful movement that came out in Berry City we can go in and show you the Burns Memorial and the the youth triumphant in City Hall Park and a number of things that came in but in Montpelier we we really didn't have much and it was kind of surprising and so this was kind of an opportunity to start turning the page and saying what what can we be doing now to start to get more public art um that's public art uh as opposed to artists and I think yeah here it goes it so aspirations two aspirations one that's targeting the public art thoroughly integrated in our urban landscape that's what I was just talking about that city beautiful those uh you know public art in our benches um Berry City has little gargoyles and dragons stuff on their bike racks um and the second one is to find out how how to have a thriving studios galleries theaters and other venues and recognize as a destination and home for artists that was our second aspiration so that's it's less about us as municipality and more about us as supporting and that's where you see four and five are supporting be those were the goals to maintain and improve the studios and then to increase opportunities for affordable art courses for residents through programs at community services department and other departments and these can all be improved um that people see it but these were mostly taken out of the public art master plan right I mean I'm making the point here that the aspiration is that this will be a home for artists but nothing really touches on that yeah making sure they're actually home actual homes for our destination and home for artists and somebody I'm very tied into the artist community here and it's not an easy place to live are we talking like surely because of the lack of housing or or something yeah no for sure well and also a lack of studio space too right like all of this is tied to housing and real estate that's why I was asking what the city does to further that aspiration and sounds like you do do some things for like last nation so it seems very piecemeal but there isn't like a program to support it yeah this is this is a new chapter I don't know if you knew that but this is you know and I wasn't here for any of this part so this is all kind of new but I mean if that gives you any idea about piecemeal planning in the past I mean there there wasn't a city there wasn't part of our city plan before so we're trying to change it from piecemeal to something more dedicated and it's not just us it's like what what the public arts commission and the public arts master plan are doing is is more than what you know we've done so far but but we are trying to be part of that making it making it a concentrated yeah kind of effort but it's not too late to take some of these um like goals and be and develop more strategies to include uh look at you know we can always we can it's it's not too late for us to add more so if you have ideas now that you are here Maria and you have this background knowledge if you can take a look at what the like you know the aspiration be as mentions a destination in home for artists and if you're not seeing goals and strategies that that help get us there but there's but there are achievable things that we could consider um let us know I'm sorry for me I was just gonna say yeah just like let us know and it's not too late for us to add more to this plan before we take it to the public I was just saying this is in terms of like the um going back to the synergies um that the housing section could be in synergy with the arts and culture section yeah that was where I was kind of going with that that they are related because when you want artists here you need to fix the housing issue yeah we can do synergies but I mean I was kind of taking it broader than that too I know yeah you were going a bit deeper like like because because we were developing this chapter in the first place and like Mike just said a minute ago most of our ideas came out of the master of arts or the the master plan that that's that's pretty new which is great because we want to make sure that what we're saying in the city plan is you know um works works together synergizes with the other uh master plan but at the same time we're not exactly like like the city plans a little bit broader and if we want to start putting stuff in there that's the links housing together that's probably beyond the scope of what they would have thought about for the for the public arts master plan but it's stuff that would would be I think within the scope for what we're doing so if those ideas exist we can try to um yeah we can try to put in there so so yeah Maria was just getting at maybe in that sentence we talked about economic to transportation utilities and facilities maybe housing should be one of those mentioned as one of those chapters and then we could add a comment you know one of the very one of the barriers to growing our arts community is the lack of housing and affordable housing or something to that effect because you have this plan yeah sure I would also broaden that a bit more to housing and real estate shortage because I know a lot of artists who can't find studio space like rough draft to the top of the head but um trying to link some of the things that you're talking about yeah I think that sums it up I have to leave unfortunately but um thank you guys for all your good work I don't think you need me for the adjourning right uh no but thank you Ariane for pointing out that it's that time we got a little caught up um okay let's let's all plan to get out of here um um I think that was it for the chapter so so yeah that's that one wrapped up so that's it we'll consider that wrapped up uh and um I'm gonna take a motion to adjourn and we can pick up the other items from our agenda at a later meeting um you know we don't have we almost we almost made it through so even a motion to adjourn motion from Ariane to be a second second second from Aaron those in favor of getting out of here say hi okay see you all at the next meeting