 All right, well thank you so much everyone for joining us this afternoon. I'm Susan Glasser from the New Yorker and Charter member of the Michelle Dunn fan club who is our fantastic organizer today But we are here for those of you joining us on live stream as well We're here at the Carnegie Endowment This event I should say is sponsored both by Carnegie and by the project on Middle East democracy And it couldn't be more timely. We have the visit of the Egyptian president which is getting underway today And he is scheduled to meet tomorrow I believe at a lunch with vice with President Trump as well as other members of the administration It comes at a very crucial and interesting time in terms of events inside Egypt So I'm personally looking forward to the insights and thoughts of everyone here today on the panel There'll also be lots of time hopefully for your questions as well So let me just thank you for sharing your time with us and I guess we'll just jump right in Let me quickly introduce each of our panelists and then you'll hear a lot more from them as I mentioned Going from the left for Michelle Dunn is our host today and organizer And she is the director of the Middle East program at here at Carnegie and so Michelle Thank you very much now. We also have joining us at Motaz El Fajiri Who is now in a new role as the general coordinator of the Egyptian rights forum? And I think we'll talk a little bit more about this as a as a new sort of umbrella group of human rights groups Thank you so much for joining us today. And then on my right. We have Ma May El Sadani who is the legal and judicial director at the Tahrir Center the Tahrir Institute from the Middle East All of them have long experience with these issues both operating inside Egypt and and more recently for reasons We will discuss outside of Egypt as well So I have to say thank you to all of them and may I I'd like to start with you because You know the context that we all have here in Washington obviously is the president's visits here But why is it so significant in terms of the timing and what what is going on? Inside of Egypt that would lead one to want to have a visit like this with the Trump administration today Thank You Carnegie and Fomet for inviting me and thank you Susan for moderating today the so in Egypt right now the Egyptian parliament is considering constitutional amendments that would really threaten to Severely change the nature of the Egyptian state. They would do a few things on the very macro level these amendments would Change the relationship between citizens and the state and what's owed to them the obligations and that relationship on the institutional level They would threaten to expand the authority of the executive and the military at the expense of a more independent judicial and legal system as well and In the immediate they threaten to extend the lifeline of a government that has not been effective in demonstrating long-term vision when it comes to dealing with Economic challenges like demographic changes water security food security when it comes to the war on terror It's been there have been the use of slash and burn tactics and collective punishment without a long-term sense of vision and just an overall rights deterioration that facilitated via the use of the law so the constitutional amendments would threaten to formalize that and if I may I just Want to go quickly through sort of five of the constitutional amendments and the implications they would have on the state Well, I I do want you to get to that especially because I think one thing people may not appreciate Here in Washington is the extent to which this is so dramatic, I mean we're talking about a significant revision You know of the constitutional order. This isn't just sort of one Let me extend the presidential term, right? I mean this is essentially restructuring The government to make official what has been You know de facto if not the juror already, right? Absolutely, and it's not just even about Presidency or the presidency itself. It's so much more than that I would say as early as 2000 as early as the last presidential election we began hearing MPs speak about the possibility of Constitutional amendments so they were paving the way for the Egyptian state to kind of get used to this idea that We're in a special time a critical time if you will and that there's a need for an extension of the mandate of this government It began being presented on an MPs dialogues on Egyptian television and sort of since then we've seen the official introduction of the draft constitutional amendments which are likely up for a final vote and This weekend April 14th is when the debate is scheduled to begin thereafter There will be a national referendum But the issue here is that there hasn't been space for Egyptians to mobilize or talk or even learn about the amendments Because the initial framing was about President Sisi and his ability to continue and and Building on the charisma that some people viewed him to have because it became sort of a matter of people and a person rather than institutions it becomes that much more difficult for a Population that has no access to an independent media that does not have a functioning civil society to really engage with the amendments Understand what's in them Egyptian media does not talk about the substance of the amendments at all They don't explain how it affects the nature of the state It's all about the presidency and the Accomplishments of this presidency when in fact the amendments like you said do do a lot more than just allow a President to run for reelection So what we've heard most commonly in the Western media is that the amendments would extend the presidential term limits from four From four years to six years with a maximum of two consecutive terms They would have an additional provision that just applies to presidency the current president To run for reelection under the new terms, which is why we've heard that he would stay in power until at least 2034 but beyond that it's much more than the presidency, right? It's about Empowering the president to appoint the heads of judicial bodies So if you have a president who's selecting the heads of a judiciary at a time when there is an increasingly Politicized judiciary you don't have the ability to challenge rulings You don't have the ability to challenge legislation that's passed disproportionately by the executive So you don't have a space to really change Institutionally so you're closing up the space for peaceful transfer of power for Systematic change from within the state all of which are really central and important Foundations of any functioning state in addition to the amendments on the judiciary There's an amendment that would define the military as the protector of the Constitution and query what that means at a time When you have a constant what and when you have judicial and legislative powers that are supposed to interpret and engage with the Constitutions not the armed forces which their mandate is to protect the country not to interpret a legal document and query as to what power it authorizes it and whether that it places the armed forces above the Legislature and the judiciary bodies that are meant to be engaging with the Constitution the amendments also extend The jurisdiction of military courts one of the trends that we've unfortunately seen in Egypt in the last few years is an escalation in the use of military courts between 2014 and 2016 a two-year period alone 7400 civilians were brought to trial before a military court system that doesn't have access to an appeal system that isn't Transparent under which Confessions on the basis of torture are acceptable forms of admitted evidence. So you have a lot of concerns there Complicating the ability of citizens access to justice as well And then finally the amendments would also introduce in a Second House of Parliament which in and of itself is not a problem here in the US We have a bicameral legislature The issue is that this second House of Parliament would be made of one-third appointed members members who are not Accountable to their to their constituents really eating away at the ability of a legislature to serve its people to meet the demands of the people So if we kind of zoom out and ask what this means It's really that we we're seeing the deterioration of the Egyptian state institutions at the expense of the executive and the military We're seeing a redefining of the relationship between citizens and the state and what they can expect to be owed to them and We're seeing this extension of a government of the lifeline of a government that really hasn't been able to meet the demands of its people which raises questions on Egypt's long-term stability its security and honestly its ability to be a good part of the United States and other countries So just a little bit to talk about that No, but I think it's really important to start with the first principles about you know, what exactly we're talking about here So what has I want to bring you into this? First of all, do you can you help us to understand why you think this is happening now in other words? Why does the government even feel compelled to do this and what does it mean? Does it essentially enshrine? In the constitution the inability of people like you to do your work inside Egypt Well, I'd like also to thank the Carnegie and Pommet for providing me here in Washington to Convey our concern on the current situation from rights in Egypt Actually, I just remember today that in April 2017 I was here on a panel and Michelle down also was part of the panel hosted by Pommet in the first Visit of CC to the White House at that time the Theory in Washington that Trump will support a stronger man in Egypt to maintain public order and stability To cooperate in the fight against terrorism and this kind of debate that we know and the school that we know What is different today? after two years Since the first visit we got to know more about the mechanism of this regime in the country how true Egypt What is the component of the patronage system? I would call it the patronage system that has been built in Egypt, which in my view is not just the threatening the stability of the Egyptian society and the and the fabric of the Egyptian Egyptian society in general, but it will make the hard task for Upcoming government democratic government in Egypt actually to deal with the legacy of this regime And when we're talking about you know transitional justice and these issues things are becoming more and more complicated today in Egypt because of the re-engineering of the Egyptian political regime and of course the constitutional amendment is part of that Which comes within what we can call the phase of consolidation of power Which is started in the presidential election the sham presidential election Which was carried out without candidate without Observers people O'Conan were in jail And after the presidential elections that it started to amend the constitution Well, we are dealing with a regime that it is not just a repressive ruler That we know about his catastrophic human rights record since 2013 even before His his he comes to power. We know that he was part of the massacre and the leading of the of the many of the Human rights crimes that committed in Egypt since 2013, but even before that since 2011 he when he was the director President cc when he was a director of the military intelligence he played a leading role in Managing the campaign the security campaign against international and local human rights movement and also was involved in Repressing protesters including cops and Christian and in the famous Maspero massacre in November 2011, but the new element today that we are talking also about unqualified ruler The theory in Washington that we will have in Egypt Repressive regime but deliver deliver stability deliver economic progress and social progress But but today we see the situation how the economy is managed What is the combat the the land escape of this economy the increasing rule of the military in the economy the patronage Network that has been established in the media With the rule of the military as well in changing the land escape of media ownership in Egypt Which distort is a public opinion today because we cannot know exactly I mean the theory that there is a supporter for the constitutional amendment and there are you know He's a stronger man. He has popularity But this is not true because most of the opponent for the constitutional amendment today Many of them are in jail many of them is struggling to convey their message But they do not have the platform to to convey that but they are struggling They are resisting the situation few days ago. We we have witnessed growing number of young people who take the risk and going across Egypt Distributing leaflet against the constitutional amendment the campaign known for constitutional amendment having global dimension But also domestic dimension despite the coasts that has been made by Egyptian rule democracy and activists and human rights defendants and for me the indicator that there is more and more British north conscience more and more human rights defender who have been persecuted in the country is also an indicator of ongoing Resistance to this repressive regime So let me ask you just quickly before I bring in Michelle to talk about this number one Why is this happening now? Why do you believe that the government is bringing forward these amendments right now? And then number two tell us a little bit about why you know You're not able to do your work inside of you Well anyone follow the political trajectory of CC since he was Minister of Defense Won't be surprised that these constitutional amendment proposed today in Egypt. He started with a baggage of policies to retaliate against, you know different political Society liberal leftist Islamist then human rights community then he started another phase of preventive taking preventive measures against any potential unrest to his policies especially when he began austerity measures With hard social cost for Egyptians today more than 30 Egyptian live under two dollar daily and Is foreign and domestic debt is has increased significantly in Egypt So this oppressive machine is very important to maintain the status quo labor movement and trade unionists also have been repressed Refer to military trials and it was clear that this move of repression against trade union and the end and trade union Also to maintain and control any unrest among workers Against these social hard social policies and the final phase that we see today is a consolidation of power As I said it started from the presidential election and led to the constitutional amendment Well, President sisi want to establish a very classic I would say in on the way of totalitarian regime not just repressive because a few days ago in New York Times Published even an article on how the military and the intelligence intervene in dramas that will be put past in Ramadana So we are facing a regime that control education media media institutions civil society creating Businessmen owned the businessman who came from military background to own new media outlets and controlling the economic Landscape it is in his view. He is trying to build a totalitarian regime But I don't think this will be durable and it will succeed First this is confronted with a demographic complexity in Egypt 100 million Populations the most populated country in the Arab region most of them are young people as they are the most Vulnerable in term of economy and alienation and marginalization is a neighborhood in the region today What we see that the Arab Spring has not has not Killed, you know, we see what's happening in Algeria and Sudan and the economic social condition today mobilizing people in the in many countries in the region including Jordan. We saw that in June 2018 so I think this won't be successful, but if he continues like that, it will create a permanent state of disorder I would say it permanent state of disorder and it may lead Egypt into protracted State of instability that not just Egyptian will pay the price, but the whole region Europe United States as well Why we are not able to do our work inside Egypt. I mean the campaign against human rights community is intense more than 30 Activist high-profile activists are under travel ban Their assets have been frozen personal and organizational assets death threat against leading human rights defenders as well retaliation and reprisal against family members Some of them are put in jail for long period. So even those who have been working on forced disappearance They became themselves victim of forced disappearance as that won him Hanan Badri Dean and others So that climate is very risky for them adding to that In challenging voices outside in the aspora. They are also targeted by the regime incitement to violence against them surveillance propaganda machines that has become systematic in Egypt every day So if I may add if I may add Mufa's just one thing I would also add the crackdown that's happening in Egypt is not just facilitated by ad hoc practices It's also legalized which is something you touched on the fact that there's a protest law and NGO law a counterterrorism law All of these laws that are sort of formalizing the practices. I think that's something to keep in mind that these are not Random events. They're systemized and institutionalized by the state Well, it does feel that these things are going along hand-in-hand which goes actually to my opening question to Michelle Which is put this in context for us a little bit. I have to say for someone like me who's not You know had the chance to follow sort of every single Step along the way that's gotten us where we are from, you know, kind of the upheaval of 2011-2012 to this moment Me there's an argument to be made I know some people who closely follow Egypt do make the argument that we are now already in a situation where this is more of a repressive Moment than even say the latter stages of the Mubarak era Do you do you agree with that and and and again Contextualized like why? Are we at this moment? And you know, do you agree that this is in fact a threshold thing that the effort to create a Jura constitutional order around Okay, thank you. Thanks for being with us today Susan and thanks to Demates and May for being here Yeah, I think this I think this is a very important moment with the constitutional amendments I've heard some people say to me. Well, look, we know that you know things have been moving in this direction for a long time It's just more of the same whatever I don't think so. I think this is really crossing Crossing into a new era with these constitutional amendments I mean, it certainly is saying to Egyptians that everything they struggled for from 2011 onward is Completely destroyed, right because it's putting even the presidential term limits. It's putting it back to pretty much the same Situation that Mubarak had and then it's even going beyond that, you know, as you've heard From May and Mates, I would say under Mubarak, for example, there there certainly was more a room for the judiciary To operate and you even had situations. It wasn't a completely free judiciary But it but it was certainly freer and certainly in terms of the human rights situation There's no comparison. I mean, there are the number of political prisoners in Egypt today and practices such as extensive use of Enforced disappearance and of extra judicial killing these were things that Didn't happen nearly as often under Mubarak. They were much more rarely used there were political prisoners There was torture and so forth under Mubarak But some of these other things were not and they and they really have have terrorized the population So, you know, that's where we are. It isn't getting better I mean if you look at human rights reports that have come out recently just Reviewing for example, what happened during the year 2018 the numbers are really shocking the number of people disappeared the number of people dying in prison whether from medical neglect or torture the number of extrajudicial killings in a very troubling recent report speaking about Documenting how in many cases extra judicial killings have been they've been staged as Looking as though they were counter-terrorism raids when they were really people pulled out of detention and and they're they're killing staged so there are a lot of you know shocking things going on and You know why are you you've asked a couple times now Susan? Why is this happening now with the constitutional amendments? I've heard some different theories about this. I mean Mates has said this has been you know Sort of in a line in the plan with what CC has had to consolidate his control, and I think that's true But they also seem to be sort of trying to get this done now and trying to get it done pretty quickly I've heard some different theories about that Some theories about the international political situation That that could make this a particularly good time for CC to get this done his current term ends in 2022 He had a very Uncomfortable end of his first term when all of a sudden people popped up wanting to run against him and so forth So I think he doesn't want to let this go too long He wants to have this all taken care of well before the end of his his current term and maybe the presence of President Trump in in the US Possibly a BB Netanyahu in Israel. I mean he's got a very congenial Situation internationally with no one who's going to give him a very hard time There also may be more Economic hard times coming in Egypt as they continue to bring down energy Subsidies and try to manage the currency and so forth So there may be reasons why he wants to get this done and his visit to the US is Perfectly timed as as May said the Egyptian Parliament is just about done with their final review They were very shortly Approved these amendments and then we will start that the popular referendum will take place before the end of this month And so you know it really is it's it's almost as though CC is up for election again himself because as May said in Egypt these amendments are all about CC and You know usually in the past the United States has been a little careful about that type of thing You know about inviting somebody Here to Washington just a week or two before in effect. He goes up for a popular election Well, that's not the case this time. That's right, and I'm glad you brought that up. I want to ask all of you That's the inescapable Context at least for a Washington conversation Around this in Egypt. It's hard for me to imagine It seems to me you're being you know gentle even in in that characterization Michelle in the past We had an enormous months if not years long fight here in Washington over even the the question of a whether it should Human rights abuses inside of Egypt the idea that a massive dramatic Revision of the constitutional order in order to what appears to eliminate or severely curtail The vestiges of democracy inside Egypt in the past as we all know that would have been the kind of front-page story that it simply hasn't been Recently for some understandable reasons. It does appear that this timing is no coincidence in terms of and What appears to be offering essentially the U.S. administration's in premature on fairly dramatic Constitutional political move. Do you let me ask both of our? Other panelists. Do you believe that that's how we'll be seen inside of Egypt as the endorsement? Or the de facto support of the Trump administration and how important is that to President Sisi's campaign? I think it's immensely important that photo op that he's going to get at the in the oval office alongside President Trump Sends the message that we are we consider Egypt a stable partner and an ally no matter what you do And that no matter what you do is a very dangerous message to send both to Egyptians inside the country who still believe in preserving democratic values and principles and to other to the region other Autocrats who are watching and taking note from this example. I think it's undeniable that just a few days before the vote goes on he's here Emphasizing the U.S. Egyptian relationship with likely no mention of human rights in the readouts, which we've seen unfortunately since the U.S. Administration has taken home. There is rarely talk of human rights in the readouts It's often about economy or counterterrorism without any sort of nuanced conversation about what the state of the of the state The actual nature of the state is and how it affects the everyday lives of people So I think it's hard It's impossible to distance that and I think it will definitely be used Capitalized that visit is going to be covered in Egyptian media And it will be covered in a in a single way because it's a state-controlled media as Matas was alluding to Yeah, and so how much of a factor Matas? Do you think that the the kind of Trump administration's Premature is for I know that you know very early on actually President Trump even during the campaign was very complimentary of him and The timing of this just just seems inescapable in a way that actually we saw a lot of direct free election support next door in Israel for Prime Minister Netanyahu in Would have been front-page news But have not been so much recently with the overall Position is that U.S. administrations the executive authorities support to President Sisi and they think that Having someone in power that they consider him strong enough that can you know Protect Egypt from falling apart like other countries in the region, but I think this View as I think the three panelists it challenges this this view There are windows and opportunities in United States to change that gradually and to get some minor small Gradual victory when it comes to human rights, and I think this happened really over the past two or three if there are some prisoners who Were released in Egypt because of the pressure made by United States and then it comes to international pressure is United States is decisive It's foreign policy to Egypt, especially its leverage on the military And in Europe also, President Sisi was aware that he needs this kind of international support He signed military deals with France, Germany, Italy, and he received this support But we saw also recently France gradually started to talk about human rights in the last visit of President Macron He received ten human rights defenders who are involved in a in case 173 on foreign funding And it was a very challenging move to President Sisi So I think it is up to us as Egyptian human rights defender in diaspora I think to work hard on that with our of course allies in the United States in Europe To challenge this view and to try to change it for the sake of Egyptian people So this is very interesting So your point is that even if President Trump remains, you know Gives him the photo op gives him the picture in the Oval Office gives him a tweet that you still see the U.S. And other potential Western allies as having enough leverage over the Sisi government What are you specifically thinking of pressure on arms sales where we're gonna talk about that in a second Of course pressure on arms sales is very important and crucial The American weapons are used against Egyptian civilians. It's very simple Egyptian and foreign as well I mean there are cases for people who innocent people who killed by the military machine in Egypt So this is something in term of legitimacy and moral responsibility United States should act to that But I think given the diversity in American institutions, there are opportunities to Surround the Egyptian government with this kind of moral Responsibility I see today in American media Editorial in Washington Post more times how they speak about the record of breathing Sisi is a Congress the position of some congressman who are Who are very supportive to Egyptian people and humanized defenders the same in Europe also? And this is a very long the pattern public opinion is important Government action are made by public opinion in the West and I think for us as Egyptian humanized defender I believe that this kind of soft power by media institutions civil society institutions It's very important and they give you here one example in France because I'm personally involved in advocacy more in Europe Never group is a company that is owned six percent of its shares owned by the French government And it is involved it in repression of labor Activists working in Alexander in a factory owned by the military human rights organization started to uncover this involvement a French trade unions start to write letters to the leadership of the company This kind of work is very important working with civil society institution trade unions media institution to pressure government in the West Not just actually to to to consider Egyptian people, but they consider their own Society their own public opinion because this taxpayer are Promoting repression in Egypt President Trump says that this will achieve stability for Egypt But what we are seeing today more radicalization among young people more young people in Egypt in in Isis and engage it in radical Islamist wing in Egypt and this will not achieve stability for the West. Well, let me let me ask Michelle I mean, you know, obviously what Motaz is describing essentially is the kind of activism. We actually were familiar with in previous era of US Egyptian relations and civil society activism and You know, American administrations carving out space to do things Is that still possible in the Trump administration given the opacity of decision-making and the president's own personal predilection? For this and what appears to be a general withdrawal of US leadership in the region because that's the other context We haven't talked about today, but I want to ask you where this fits in. Are we seeing? Some of these developments actually is a response to the US being less involved And then it used to be What I think the Trump administration has been doing and will do is raise individual cases of Americans imprisoned in Egypt of whom there are may you probably have a better count than I do but there are you know More than more than it does 20 years I've heard about 20 and just to slip it in there I'll give it back to you right away one of the individuals who was detained in the aftermath of the train crash Which happened recently around the expressions against the constitutional amendments is an American citizen, right? And then again, right and there have been more and more right So there are American citizens and and maybe some green cold green card holders the Trump administration will raise privately They You know perhaps the case of someone like April Corley the American woman you just alluded to her I think Montez who was gravely wounded in this attack with Apache helicopters in the desert 2015 and who still has not received any kind of Reasonable settlement from the Egyptian government. So they might raise things like this the problem is that I think this administration in particular will resist raising the structural issues that then end up Having a very very negative and widespread Effects on human rights. I mean whether it's the constitutional amendments the politicization of the courts military trials of civilians a Bismal treatment in prison between torture and so forth Montez was just speaking about radicalization Among particularly young people in Egyptian prisons extremely dangerous. These are sort of the larger issues that I think unfortunately this administration Doesn't see or doesn't agree with or doesn't want to get into to be honest with you all Administrations have disliked, you know raising those larger structural issues because then it was an interference in their politics and so forth But some administrations have done it more than others normally it falls to the Congress and that's even more the case Now than before and Congress does have the power of the purse string and it does have a say As you know, it's a negotiation back and forth between the Congress and the administration over things like conditions on Military assistance. Well, that's right. And so let's talk with just quickly and I'll bring everybody into this But Michelle if you can start us off. What is the regional context? It's very interesting A we're talking about the long-term support of the United States for the Egyptian military But you actually now have an interesting situation where there are major arms purchases of fighter jets from Russia That President sisi is contemplating how much is the administration going to make that an issue? Is that is that a potential? Rift between the two and also you see this Visit coming we haven't mentioned Libya, but it's very interesting that you actually have a situation where the Egyptians along with other US partners in the Gulf in particular UAE and Saudi Arabia are backing one side in what appears to be this escalating Fight inside of Libya and the United States at least for the moment appears to be on the other side with the sticking with the UN backed Government so how does that play in is that something that we'll see any hint of publicly? disagreement with you, I Doubt we will see that publicly, but but it's a curious situation Because while on the one hand there we can see some some affinity of the President Trump has an affinity for strong men and Sisi's a strong man and as Mott has said I think that You know Sisi's been able to project himself You know as the one who can keep hold of Egypt amidst you know as we see now Libya Algeria Sudan, you know a lot of unrest Going on in the region and so forth and you know, he's been a he's been a steady military and intelligence partner to Israel So you know that is there and and I think President Sisi has also been able to project himself as the friend of Christians inside of Egypt and the friend of women I would dispute those I will let my colleagues if they want to say more about about his actual record on those issues But but I think there are those in the Trump administration I mean Ivanka Trump tweeted about this recently who accept that who believe that he's doing great things for for Women and for Christians inside of Egypt So that's on that what I think that the Trump administration would have used the positive side of the leisure on the other side of the ledger though Susan I mean Sisi is He actually opposes US positions on many issues, right? So on Libya on Syria, I mean Sisi's been on the other the other side of this issue from the United States He's not been now Maybe the Trump administration is sort of you know pulling up stakes a bit and not taking big interest But at least the positions that Sisi have had have been the other side. I think even on The Arab-Israeli peace issue and that that is an issue that I think is still of some importance to the White House You know Sisi does not support what sorry well, that's right I want to ask everybody about that question, especially in light of Netanyahu's last-minute campaign Announcement that he's considering right getting annexation So while while we know that Sisi is no great friend to the Palestinians at the same time You know I think for all these Arab allies of Trump the position on Jerusalem now on Golan and if indeed Israel moves forward to to annex parts of the West Bank and and the US administration Recognize that that puts these Arab leaders in a very uncomfortable position. It's humiliating frankly You know and and and you know there are populations I was just reading an article in the Arabic press from Egypt today about all these all these Egyptian parliamentarians speaking up And they're all supporting Sisi's visit and how wonderful it's going to be every single one though mentioned We have a real problem on Jerusalem and Golan and where this administration is going on this issue So I think that's you know, it's problematic I mean regarding Gaza and so forth, you know count on Sisi to do what's in Egypt's national interest I don't think he's going to do more of that and the kind of a role that Israel and That Netanyahu and that President Trump and others may view that they would like to see Sisi take on in Gaza I'm doubtful that he would be able to that the security establishment would support that and then there's Russia and You know the thing is look if you I Do think it's a concern of this administration and we've already seen them engaging I mean if only for commercial reasons They don't want to see more and more arms sales going to Russia and then there are security reasons as well We've seen a big issue with Turkey Obviously, and now the the purchase the contract that Egypt has supposedly made for these fighter aircraft I think would bring into play the Katzah sanctions the countering America's adversaries You know sanctions now the administration there would be a choice maybe as to whether to apply them or not But I think it seems that that purchase would be Sanctionable so I do think these things are problematic and just to connect this back to the constitutional amendments Let's remember these constitutional amendments are not about securing the stability of Egypt They are about securing Sisi's hold on power and Persistence in power and the question is even for the Trump administration Is he really an asset on all these issues more than some other Egyptian president would be? I don't think so. I think in many cases his actual positions are not Really what what they would like them to be well, you know, it's interesting it disconnects I think to to May's original point, which is That it's we can't untwine The arguments over Sisi's record and what kind of a leader he is and that and these constitutional amendments And that is partially why there's been so little debate about, you know The long-term impact of doing something like this, right? Like, you know, here we are arguing over what kind of a president Sisi is and what what what we should make of him as a partner of the US So there's a lot to unpack in what Michelle just said, but I want to ask you specifically about this This notion that's here in Washington in particular Ivanka Trump tweeting that he's a friend to women Is that is that possibly true? Is there the idea of this is a bulwark to minority sort of an outpost of Moderation in a sea of potential extremism that that seems to be the marketing What's the reality? I think Egypt is Doing a good job at framing itself as the things that the US wants it to be whether that's a regional partner Whether that's a supporter of minorities whether that's a proponent of women It knows sort of what the West is interested in what the catch terms are which what the phrases are that will get people's attention And that will Attract the support that it needs, but I think that couldn't be farther from the truth even very briefly on the regional issue President Egypt does not does not have the same regional influence that it used to and I think it continues to capitalize on Maybe the historic role that it has played in the region But the reality is that influence is dying and continues to die as the country doesn't take leadership on so many of these regional issues That Michelle was talking about and then on the women and minority issues When looking at minorities Egypt has a church construction law in which it subjects Christians to a different law than that governing the building of mosques, which means inadvertently there or it or advertently There's a distinct Distinct sorry legal scheme that prohibits Christians from getting the same treatment that Muslims would when they're attempting to build a mosque and that in and of itself is a problem let alone the fact that the Church construction law has not been implemented properly Project on Middle East democracy did a great report on this tracking the implementation of the law and how it has affected Christians ability to worship in villages. We're seeing continued instances of sectarian violence We're seeing resorting to reconciliation sessions instead of the formal judicial process for Christians Which puts them at a disadvantage? Subjects them to an informal system that is likely going to result in the Christian family that may have been Harmed actually being forced to depart the village and this is these are trends You're not seeing these as ad hoc incidents You're seeing these are things that are systemized and institutionalized and on the women issue Without even getting into the laws particularly implicating women in on the most general sense the NGO law the protest law All of these laws are targeting rights defenders who are both women and men We have women in detention women who are subject to egregious conditions women who don't have access to justice Let alone trans women one of the women who was arrested around the constitutional amendments mobilized Mobilizing is a trans woman who is currently being held in an all-male prison. So She's being held in solitary confinement, which not something to celebrate But still in that environment in which she's subjected to male guards in which she's been subjected to a forced anal exam And I'm sorry to use the term, but that's what it is So really horrific conditions So one would be hard-pressed to say that the practices nor the law like support women and minorities In fact, just like they are implicating Egyptians as a whole minorities and women are Disproportionately subject to even more harm both because they're Egyptians and because they're minorities What has just a small note on women and then I have something to say on foreign policy and the economy Well, I just remind the audience that CC has he has had shameful record or woman and the rights of woman in 2011 when he was the director of the military intelligence he gave instructions for Virginity test Practiced against female protesters and this has not been investigated. He should be persecuted for that He and his colleagues and this is something really it's a catastrophe and choking and so far It has not been investigated So I cannot you know trust this man to do any progress in the right of format But that's just like Saudi Arabia also using the file of woman to market itself internationally But in home both Saudi Arabia and Egypt prosecute woman human rights defenders and prosecutors people who defend rights of woman Seeing something also on foreign policy. I think today in the region This is applied to Egypt and other countries including Saudi Arabia Emirates Well, the dynamics of counter-revolution burden foreign policy of these countries and The price is high for the people in the region in Yemen in Syria and in Libya today Hafter if after I mean he represents the model I'm trying to copy paste the model of presidencies and that's why United Arab Emirates Egypt. They give him support In his move inside it. Yeah, so this foreign policy Egyptian foreign policy with struck peaceful resolution of the conflict in Libya So and it will continue like that because I think repressive policies inside Egypt and the dynamics of Maintaining power and considered a consolidating power has some kind of regional dimension because now we are talking about the regional polarization There is a group of regional actors who work hard to repress any democratic transition happening in the region in Algeria today The forces of the counter-revolution started to be very strong in Algeria these days with the repression and Detention among activists and this is also based on instruction and support by some regional power Going into the economy one thing that prison CC has been raised for is the economic measures that have been taken so far So this is a testimony. I mean presented by the IMF recently because there is We cannot distinct between politics and and the economy in Egypt case Well, I'm F says Egypt gross model need to evolve by allowing the private sector to take part But this is unfortunately obstructed why it is obstructed weak governance lack of transparency Poor competition and poor competition adding another factor That's a heavy presence of the state in the economy and here's a military in the economy, which has significantly significantly increased under prison CC providing tender by direct order to the military without any kind of competition and this actually Hurt the basic of liberal economies that's propagated by United States today And it will work against the interest of private sector that we want to flourish in Egypt in order to provide employment and Opportunity for Egyptian people. Well, these aren't really important points And by the way, I'm gonna get to the audience next so just start to think of what questions you have Quickly before we do that. I want to ask both you Michelle's point about the Israeli Palestinian peace process such as it is or lack there How much do you think that is a factor if if Prime Minister Netanyahu is Reelected tomorrow. Do you foresee there being any? Rift between Egypt and the Jerusalem issue and the Golan Heights will will it will it even come up in the meeting with President Trump? I'll yield my time to my I mean My answer is simple to that for a long time the Palestinian Israeli conflict has been used to blackmail Western government This is something really clear and Brison sees, you know, very well that his involvement in this will help him also to maintain his power and to pass certain, you know Concessions from to get certain concession from Western actors I think today Palestinians are under very tough choices. There is divide in insides of Palestinian Authority repression has turned it actually and practice by Palestinian Faction against Palestinian activists, not just Israeli against Palestinian as a whole regional dynamics today is very hard when it comes to the peaceful and and Durable solution for the Arab Israeli conflict. We have seen in the last Arab summit in Tunisia Well, there was some condemnation to the Israeli Policies in Palestinian occupied territory, but what kind of mechanisms you have what kind of policies you have what kind of leverage that They can use to force and to pressure Israel to change its policies I think they have nothing to offer They are just concerned about their own domestic policies and they use the Arab Israeli card in order to Gain more and more time in their in power and also to blackmail Western government is something clear. I think but that's what's interesting perspective my perspective as an Egyptian Citizen and Egyptian activist who follow the situation inside Egypt. I know maybe in United States It is different aspect of that, but I'm just conveying the local Egyptian Yeah, it's very interesting and I think a lot of people would agree with your analysis That's what's so interesting about the Trump administration though saying that it intends to proceed with potentially offering a peace plan We'll see right. I mean, they've been saying that for a long time But I find it your argument very interesting in that sense because it could finally force presidency and other Arab leaders to actually That tactic might not work for them anymore They actually would have to say whether they support this plan or not and what? Impassment actually President Trump did to Arab leader a few days before their summit He just declares that Glenn, you know, we recognize Glenn under Israeli sovereigns and now reason This is coming to the White House, right so that if effectively he's recognizing Did he put out any kind of a statement on the Golan? They did put out a statement saying that they were against this, you know as they did with the change on Jerusalem All right, so let's bring in all of your questions one favor given that there's a lot of people here And we want to get to as many as possible Tell us who you are and do make it a question if you can. Thanks so much. You sir We've we have a microphone A previous member of Egyptian American Alliance and also Egyptian for a change My question is a Small question about two avenues simply the system to us Egyptian American or Egyptians The system is just a gun and People are imprisoned in this country. There is no law. It's only is a gun He can any any difference he can just put them in jail. So any ability we can extract Just a word a word from the administration from the State Department that any any concern just for the future because this situation is not sustainable So for just for your asset, can you extract just a lip service? Just to let them know that this is not acceptable at least you have a Minimum base of moral standards. That's one thing the other thing is Any way you can because the the this System is surviving because the lack not because the system is this wrong because of the lack of Opposition the opposition is doesn't have a skeleton doesn't have a structure. There is many opposition But it's just not organized. No figure. No skeleton the minute this Opposition figure out a system or a skeleton or a structure. This system is gone anyway for those who care about the the The future of Egypt to to be changed peacefully would want to go into the route of radicals So anyway the or any action from us here as an American or American citizen, whatever to Help those Egyptians because they don't know it's looks so far. They don't know how to Okay, thank you. So I guess the question is what what can anyone do here that would actually be tangible and constructive? Possibility of getting at least lip service from the White House on on human rights or Civic freedom issues It doesn't seem so it seems as though in this administration They came in with the idea that the Obama administration had been mistaken to be speaking up about human rights Even though maybe they weren't that effective in doing anything about it, but they were speaking up about human rights and that irritated The Egyptian Government and so forth. So the the from the beginning the the Trump administration said we're not going to do that I do think Congress Speaks up and will will continue to to speak up regarding Opposition and and what people can do and so forth. I just want to take a moment to advertise I'm a Hemsowie, and I have a new paper out about Egyptians and Excel Thanks, Montez. It's out there on the table and it talks about what people are doing And what it's what it says is that up to this point? You're quite right There's been very little. I mean the political opposition has really been crushed fragmented polarized And you know in many ways there are a lot of things that Egyptians are doing in exile where they have more freedom in the realms of human rights advocacy and Also in the realm of media You know not all of it good, but but there there's a lot of you know There's a lot of activity and that that activity I think is Disturbing the Egyptian government that the Egyptian government is doing things to push back That was much as his right of activity outside of the country as well, which is Maybe I can take something here. I think there are two Goal right now when it comes to rules of Egyptian outside because you know the growing number of Activists who left to the country the first one is to to talk to each other first because really since the 2011 there is Division that happened within the political society and civil society as well and it was furthered in 2013 so we need first to understand really to review what happened in Egypt and to learn from what happened and I think one of the Major tasks right now is to how to transform human rights how to use human rights as a An agenda for this kind of common ground between different actors who working on Egypt What I see now human rights is is human rights issues today in Egypt Is the thing is that every Egyptian? I mean the political civil society international even international actors There is a consensus that now there is a catastrophe when it comes to human rights And this catastrophe will imbed the transition in the future and it hurt the social fabric of Egyptian society So there is a rule On us as Egyptian human rights activists to think how to provide Alternatives and how to think about detailed program when it comes to certain issues for example transitional justice dealing with the legacy of The successive authoritarian regime that Egypt has known so far the institutional and legal mess that My talked about because President Ceasar mean Did with the Egyptian institution and laws many things that really create This order in the legal structure of an institutional structure of Egyptian State so these are hard issues and we are not inventing the wheel because in other Models like in Chile or in Tunisia under under Ben Ali Human rights defender in exile blade a rule in the leader rule and talking to each other to Discussing some of the breathing issues and one of the breathing issues issue Egypt today is the rule of civilian military relation what kind of of check and balance that should be Pilled you know in any future transition the relationship between state and religion because this is also created Polarization in Egyptian society and it one of the factor that led the revolution to fail or to be embattled in Egypt is a polarization caused by the religious lack of consensus on the rule of religion and And the state and guarantees needed to protect minority woman and all of that and the second Goal for for for the work outside Egypt of course is mobilization mobilization targeting public opinion institution civil society working with Trade unions in in different countries like in Europe for example because they are very influential in Europe Targeting business also because we are I think as a human rights defender. We have not done much work on that working with our targeting Private companies that working with Egyptian government and trying also to persuade and convince them to consider human rights agenda in the relationship with Egypt Do you want anything or should we go ahead? I would add something just about the the reason why the opposition is so fragmented certainly There were a lot of challenges a lot of mistakes made But I think it's important to also realize the situation that that we're dealing with we're dealing with a legal scheme that prohibits People from gathering even for a meeting for political parties that have tried to engage on the constitutional amendment issue Like a duster party had its members arrested outside of a meeting That was a in a private space And so I think it's important to keep that in mind not as an excuse But also to understand the reality to know that there's systematically laws and practices that are making it so that there is no Opposition and I think that underscores actually why one of the reasons why these constitutional amendments are so Important and so impactful because they eliminate any space for that opposition So it becomes so much easier for in our meetings the US to ask us so if not CC then what's the alternative and really it's impossible to answer that question when we're in this context and When the US is sending these implicit messages of support, I would say, okay Right. Thank all of you. Thank you to all of you for your presentations I'm Amy Austin homes. I teach at the American University in Cairo and I'm also here at the Wilson Center now this year My I have one question, but there's there's an Egyptian a European and an American angle to it So basically as all of you know when Tillerson first came into office It wasn't actually clear that he would take a stand on You know human rights in Egypt, but he did that he did actually withhold Some of the US military aid to Egypt where he made it conditional for a certain amount of time So do you see any possibility that? Pompeo for example could change his position and I'm mentioning this because when he spoke at the American University in Cairo Recently when he gave his speech there He didn't actually mention Julio de Jenny for example a single time although when he was in Saudi Arabia. He did mention the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. So Is this because there's been a lack of coordination between and this gets to the European Dimension of has there been a lack of coordination between Those of us here in the United States and for example in Europe on these issues because in Europe the issue Julio de Jenny has been a very big issue. I mean his his parents are still pushing for some accountability So is there a lack of coordination between Europe and the United States on these issues that might be the reason why Pompeo didn't mention in his speech and finally You know all of this as I'm sure you know there was a lot of anger at The American University in Cairo because of his speech But also the fact that it was done in a very sort of secretive way and then it was presented as an example of how this is freedom of speech Etc. And I don't want to go into the details of the university politics behind that but You know it gets to the issue of academic freedom and freedom of expression and Also the issue of economic development in Egypt because the government itself realizes that they need to improve the Educational system in Egypt and they actually realize that they need to attract foreign universities to come and Establish either branch campuses in Egypt or to somehow expand the educational offerings in Egypt But that's not happening because universities are afraid to come to Egypt So is there any recognition and this is the final part of the question Is there any recognition in Egypt that you can see that their own policies are Prohibiting regarding the crackdown on academic freedom and journalists etc. And everyone basically but that that those policies are prohibiting their economic goals of You know educating their population so that they can achieve economic development etc Is there any recognition that you see that that their own policies are counterproductive in terms of what they hope to achieve for their Own economic development. Well, thank you. That's very interesting set of questions I you know, we might not be able to get to all of them But just quickly were you were you at the speech and what was your impression of it? You are here. Okay, so it's affecting your your world and your colleagues Just something on the universities in UK Egyptian ambassador in UK offered University of Liverpool to open like branch in Egypt and they evaluated the situation Fused to go to Egypt foreign academics. Also, there are instructions, you know, not to do any field research in Egypt So it's also catastrophic when it comes to education and development of education in the country Well, how the situation will it change? I think now we have evidence just few days ago evidence in terms of the impact of Misled counter-tourism policies in Egypt and instability in Egypt. I think recently this reports are published by Reuters special report on killing civilians, you know in counter-tourism operation is horrible And I don't know how policy makers in the West can Fact this fact have been said by human rights organization But Reuters today Additional evidence of how the Western weapons have been used against civilians mirth in Egypt I remind you five Citizens were killed when you because you mentioned Jolly regime five citizens were killed in July 2016 in middle of 2016 and the police at that time said that because they are the perpetrator of the killing of Jolly regime those five Egyptian innocent citizen Where is the right? You know, these people were assassinated by this or and more in early 2017 We saw the leaks that have been, you know broadcast in YouTube on execution of hostage in Sinai and Today's evidence coming from Reuters. So I think there is evidence from the ground What we like is a political well of Western leaders in Europe Europe is divided today With all of the growing right wing is a Brexit debate in the UK The EU unfortunately continue providing support to Debate within the institution not to release new fund to Egyptian government because of these reasons that we are talking about But there is a lack of political leadership And Europe has been always follow the US in this when it comes to Egypt if things change it here in Washington Europe will follow and this happened under Mubarak and the 2017 yeah, yeah, no, that's it quickly because I want to make sure we get a few more questions But Michelle that's the the sort of follow-up I would ask you is What if this is not an omission on the part of the US government, but this is the policy, I mean You know, it seems fairly clear in fact at this point that had the administration wanted to speak more publicly About these issues it would have absolutely not a lack of communication from the beginning of the Trump administration They didn't want to speak publicly about issues but as You know as was asked, you know secretary Tillerson did engage a little bit more now. He it's interesting He engaged on these NGO issues on the NGO case and the NGO law and those are just briefly really interesting to look at Right now. So in the case of the 43 people convicted in 2013 the the Trump administration got what it wanted Eventually, I mean it had to sort of really, you know Keep the pressure up and had been begun begun earlier under the Obama administration But eventually all those people were acquitted in December of last year now. We have the issue of the NGO law, which was Secretary Tillerson made very much an issue of this this very draconian new NGO law and just before CC arrives in town. There's this Announcement from the from one of the ministers in the Egyptian government that they're going to abrogate the law and put a new law in place Of course, I think that's really it's just a tactic to get the issue off the table for CC's visit You know, what will actually happen with that law? We have yet to see they have not abrogated the old law yet the new law is not out and You know, unfortunately if past experience is a guide these things often disappoint further down the line But well, but they you see that they felt they had to sort of well Let's try to let's try to close off the loop on that one I just wanted to make one more comment about and there is a difference of secretary Pompeo We can see a clear difference. I mean secretary Tillerson his views were you know They were kind of in a way more traditional Republican party views on foreign policy He was obviously a bit of an you know Didn't fit that comfortably inside the Trump administration and and and left Secretary Pompeo, I think seems to me much more have much more of an affinity with President Trump in terms of his His views on these issues and we're seeing that with the treatment of Egypt one last point on this point about Academic freedom and so forth The lack of academic freedom the lack of freedom in the media and so forth This all has an economic effect as well, and it's it's not only universities who don't want to come It's foreign direct investment. All these things are linked, right in the Mubarak in Mubarak They you know Mubarak era they understood this and there was a bit of loosening up on Media on civil society They allowed internet freedom and things like that because they wanted to attract foreign direct investment not because they were Democrats And and it was all seen as part of the same picture CC now comes in and says well that was Mubarak's mistake He loosened up too much, and then we had the you know 2011 Revolution so I'm not going to make that mistake, but he is having a problem if you read those IMF reports closely. Yes, they always start out with we're so happy with all the austerity measures But you read down a little bit and Montez was quoting from a recent one and you see the concerns About you know investment is not blowing into Egypt which which they had hoped it would do on the back of austerity measures Because it's not a free environment. It's not a level playing field State companies military companies are far too dominant It's not a competitive environment or an open environment, and so you know eventually, you know that that is going to catch up With CC government, I want to make sure that we get to a couple questions So I think we'll just take maybe two questions now, and then have our panelists come back for a final round So we'll go to you sir, and then you Hello, Greg aftan dillian with Boston University Just interpreting some of these constitutional amendments. I'm curious if this was one way for CC to preclude a military coup In other words, he's giving the military much more power and over the in the last presidential election you know we saw him arrest or Force people who announced they wanted to run for president with the military background to basically step down and So I'm wondering is he trying to protect Himself against a possible coup down the road since he you know came to power of course that way Thank you, and then right here in the front Thank you. Actually my question was quite the same with the previous one I am a circuit from CETA DC and my question was about a potential military coup against CC. I Am aware of that the Relations between the military and the president is very complicated in Egypt considering that I want to ask Are they inseparable the CC and military is inseparable and under what conditions the military can make an actions against CC? Thank you Well, why don't we I think As a lawyer, I'm not in the business of of guessing and sort of and anticipating exactly what's gonna happen And I don't think it's a good business with Egypt anyway because we're always surprised But I think it is it's very true What you say the relationship between president CC and the military is complicated as has been talked about before he comes from an intelligence background there is a Lack of distrust that comes as part of that community in general. It's something that plays into the relationship It's something that can't be ignored. I've heard multiple explanations for why that specific amendment is in the Constitution Some of which have implied that it is sort of a carrot in order to keep the balance of powers and others have taken a completely different Perspective of which this is something that's been handed down and said this must be part of the package So I'll leave it at that. I won't I won't stipulate us to which one it is But I think with regards to closing remarks, I think it's important for us Sometimes it's hard to talk about things like constitutional amendments. They're technical. They're very complicated They're they're they affect the nature of the state in a way that maybe is less easy to talk about than the arrest of one individual Or an American citizen in detention But I think it's important to keep in mind that these amendments change the way the Egyptian state will be that change is beginning It has begun already It's be it's escalating now and it will continue and I think if you want to see what Egypt is going to look like down the Line at 2034 one only need look at the way the institutions are deteriorating a judiciary that is losing its independence increasingly so alongside its prosecution a Legislature that has unfortunately become a rubber stamp for a lot of executive actions In fact the vast majority of laws passed by the Parliament which we track in our Egypt Parliament watch project are Initiated by the executive so they're not even initiated by MPs raising questions on legal stability and sort of legal independence as well And just the way the the government views its citizens I think it's very instructive to see how little tolerance there has been from this government with regards to just a no vote Or even a boycott of the vote We've seen people arrested in one week alone There were 70 individuals arrested in the aftermath of the train crash and expressing dissatisfaction around the constitutional amendments Among them like I said an American citizen a trans woman a trans man a really worrisome worry and worrying development And I would say it's it's instructive to sort of think I'll end with this I think about the case of the man who took to Tahrir holding up a sign Saying it's easy leave CC and he was arrested and now he's in or he was forcibly disappeared for a period And now is in pre-trial detention So that gives you a window of what what we're working with and what we can expect in the in the future Thank you so much. What has you want to take the the military as well as Will actions that have been taken by businesses over the past two years indicate From within the regime structure, I mean what Dead Two figures and another Military officer who you know tried to compete him in the election And also decision and reshuffle that has been followed within as a general intelligence and the army and the military intelligence It's clear that he tried for both things under under control. He succeeded or not so far Not answer this but it seems to me that there is this comfort from within the regime and all of this decision indicate What he tried to do is to build disease patronage system of patronage to ensure his own stability in the business landscape in the media landscape and also within the parliament the military intelligence Blame rule in choosing in bees and making party list We saw that first parliamentary election and it's something new in Egypt as well That you know, you give this direct rule to the military Intelligence and general intelligence to device, you know, who's competing and how which what kind of political parties will Established and what kind of political parties will be, you know, sidelined So this is what he what he's doing and also the media landscape and and creating also new Elite of businessmen also coming from To build and to maintain this but I think the constitutional amendment will maintain that and We try also to give stability for this kind network of To establish around the president and I think also having a second Parliament it's also within this direction to give more Pride for more supporters and to give them role in the institution in order to support, you know The the ruling institution, but I don't he he does what he want And this is the homework of any repressive regime to create this kind of an institution But as an activist, I think he will not succeed Because what what we are seeing today in Egypt in term of demography This is what I said in my introductory remark the demography demographic challenge economic socially challenge And they don't think that he will be able to deliver economically and socially because Egyptian economy Many of them related built in in the Egyptian system, but also the neighborhood the regional factors So he will not be able to deliver socially and economically in term of demographic Challenge young people are alienated and they will not be also Will not concede, you know easily and they will continue a challenging the bridge But what concerning me as an Egyptian citizen dividing the society from alternative and replacing All political actors and civil society actors in the country Despite the fact that there is growing resistance and it will grow. I think This also can take Egypt into instability if there is no process of Opening up the space Because and we have seen that in many country following the Arab Spring and I think this is a challenge that is Egypt today Egypt cannot be continued like that And this is something that make any Egyptian worry about the future of the country about the social cohesion of the Egyptian society Thank you so much Michelle the last word goes to you what has has framed this in a very provocative way and said that essentially a Totalitarian state is is being formed before our eyes. You know, I don't know How you assess the situation right now, but maybe you can can leave us with the thought about You know the significance of this particular visit by the president of Egypt to the president United States at this moment Yeah, I you know, I agree with what Mates has said about that the signs that they're you know, and there always are inside these kind of regimes problems and that May mentioned sort of carrots and sticks. We see CC using Economic benefits to the military at the same time maybe using possibility of corruption proceedings or the special law that allows him to designate whether or not members of the military can be Pursued for some of their human rights crimes and so forth So trying to to control things whether he will or will not control things over the longer run is another question But certainly regarding this visit. I do think that you know as we said that the timing of this visit makes it very valuable To presidency to put across these constitutional amendments I mean, it's a it's a message to the Egyptian people But maybe even more so to to the Egyptian military and to the major figures there that you know CC has the United States in his pocket and it you know It's really it's really too bad to see the United States playing that role On the level of principle, but even if we were to set aside that if we look back at What for example the previous administration did, you know, the Obama administration was blamed by the Egyptian public at the beginning of the 2011 uprising for being too close to Mubarak too close to the old regime then after Morsi was elected Well, they were too close to Morsi. They were seen as being, you know in league with the Muslim Brotherhood and You know, why does the Trump administration want to make that same mistake again? they're over investing in CC himself as opposed to Having a good relationship sort of with the nation of Egypt with the people of Egypt by pushing, you know Everything into the realm of security cooperation Security assistance, it's all about the US relationship now is you know primarily with the military and with CC as opposed to With the nation of Egypt more broadly and I think that'll that'll come back to haunt them All right on that note. We can reconvene and see see where we end up I want to thank everyone here for great questions and in particular thing this great group of panelists I've really learned a lot today, and I'm sure you have as well. Thank you so much. Thank you