 Hello there lovers and friends. Welcome to the podcast appropriately titled Hello there lovers and friends. And today I'm with lovers and friends. What's up? It's Chandra is here. Courtney is here. Dashaun is here. I have your a fish intros. I'm going to read in a second, but first, can we break down why we're here in the first place? Hello there lovers and friends is a podcast that is designed to speak to the inner relationship and intimacy expert in you, whether it's your sexual relationships, your friendships or your romantic relationships. I want you to feel empowered to make the right decisions for yourself because you are armed with the tools that help you to do so. Kind of like how the iPhone made everybody a photographer. That's what I'm aiming for with this podcast. And in order to accomplish that it's about bringing unique perspectives and trained perspectives and voices. So you guys are here because I believe you are an authority on this topic and I respect you and I adore you. I am joined by Chandra Jackson, a licensed marriage and family therapist. Can I get a she has been seen on the Emmy Award winning show, the doctors. She has been recently featured in the New York times vice bustle and the Huffington post as one of the 10 black female therapists that you should know. She's also a three times author sitting on my two time author. Okay. And she's an international speaker. Welcome, Chandra. I'm also joined by Courtney, who is hypnotically free spirited with an intoxicating charm. Also a property manager. Also masseuse. Also one of the six women in the game of desire. Absolutely. Hello, Courtney. And on the far end of the couch is Deshaun, an environmental hot girl solving the California water crisis one drip at a time. Yes, one drip. Yeah. Deshaun is again, one of six women who are featured in the game of desire and it's so special for the two of you to be here and for you to be here as well too. So today's episode, we are going to talk about black women being undesired in the dating world. And this is not an opinion. This is based on facts and studies that were done. For example, okay. Cupid did a review of who were the least swiped upon amongst the different genders and data show that the most that most men in the site rated black women as less attractive than women of other races and ethnicities. Of course, on the flip side of the coin, it's Asian men who were rated less attractive than other races and ethnicities in the male category. In addition, according to the 2018 motherly state of motherhood survey, black mothers are four times more likely to be single and serve as the primary breadwinners of their home. So in short, what is it like to date as a black woman? Interesting, fun, and difficult. It's actually really difficult. I recently swiped on someone and he was like, oh, you look a lot like my ex-girlfriend. And I was like, okay. And I'm looking at his picture. I'm like, okay, you're white. He's like, are you down with the swirl? I was like, you know, I mean, honestly, if I swiped, right? Yes, that's an indication. That's an indication. The next question I got was, do you wear a weave? And I'm like, are these is this happening still right now, where Beyonce is wearing weaves, where all your celebrities are wearing weaves, all ethnicities are changing. And first of all, most of us have moved on to wigs. Weaves, not so much, but braids, crochets and wigs. But I just find it so interesting that that's still like a question that stereotypically put on us, like, is that your hair? Like, why is that a thing? And I'm like, there's so many ways you have to try to answer that or disarm it or like reroute that question to like get the ball back in your court and be like, okay, this is where we're going with the conversation. We're not going here. So do you feel like even though there's a yes that happened because you guys both swiped right instead, there's the yes that happens. They're still treating you like a maybe. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because the other comment that I got when I actually did go on a date, which turned out to be all right, was you're actually more kinder than I thought you would be. Or you're you're actually more intelligent than I thought, even though you didn't go to college. And I was like, wait, huh? Is that a compliment or is that a backhanded compliment? And that's like what like is happening during a first impression is you're having to almost check yourself to and saying, did this person really just say this to me and then still try to get to know this person and see if they are a possible mate. I will say for me, it's more on the difficult side because I feel like I do get a lot of matches, but then it's just like it never like propels to the next step. And it's just difficult to get those dates in general. And so that's like definitely been my area of struggle here, at least in the Los Angeles area. I will say that like when I was living in Georgia for school, it was a lot easier just because it's more black people populated in one city. But yeah, it's just getting to that date to even try and see if you have built a connection or see if you want to pursue a relationship because I can't get a first date let alone the second one. And that is extremely frustrating. Yeah. I think first of all, that statistics makes me really sad. Like, you know, and I almost took it personal. I'm like, excuse me. How could you not? Absolutely. But I take into consideration what the narrative everyone else has and use that to my advantage. So be it if you think that we're less desirable. I want you to think that. Or if it's like, oh, no, you are desirable. I want you to think that I want to have the upper hand because I'm going to counter and like obliterate what you think. That's my whole mission is like, even if it's saying, oh, you're not desired. I can play into that. No, no, no. I want you to I want you to want you to think I'm less than you because I'm going to show you better than I can tell you. But I want to know. Like, maybe I just love stats and just information I said, but I need to know like what's going on out here in these streets, you know, but partially for the same reason that you do because it's like, I'm about to freaking obliterate your whole it just go beyond. As a black woman, I just feel like I'm constantly underestimated over and over and over again. And it has definitely worked to my advantage in that, in that method, whether that's in school, whether that's with men, whether that's with conversation, constantly underestimated. So yeah. Do you experience direct racism in the dating world? Have you, I know Courtney, you've had experiences before that I could quote for you because I let you talk for yourself. But have you experienced that from people before wherein that it's not even implied that perhaps it's because I'm a black woman. I'm experiencing this or I'm not getting the response I want. They've literally said something to make that clear. I dated someone that I was going natural wearing my hair in a natural state and I was getting ready. We're going to go to something harmless like the movies where it's dark. Doesn't matter what my hair looks like. We're going here for a movie. And he literally said, well, can you put your white girl hair on? Referring to a weave or a wig. And I was like, no, this is what I like. And like to hear someone that I was kind of dating in a relationship with, say these things that you're trying to force a standard of on me and not accepting me for who I am was very self-deprecating. It made me think twice about what my worth was, because my hair wasn't a certain way or I was loud as a black woman. And I'm like, this is who I am. And it, it, it sucks because it's like, you're not only being rejected by the outside people, but when you do date people who will get closer, they do slide those little, those little notions in there in those comments of like, are you sure you like this about yourself? Like, oh, I wish you were lighter skinned or I wish you had. Have you had someone literally say that to you before? Like that I was lighter tone? Yes. Like verbatim. You probably look a little bit better lighter tone. I probably would. What's nuts is cause your complexion is my. It's like, thank you. Utterly amazing. Thank you. Deshaun, have you ever experienced over racism before in dating? I will say not particularly over or not anything similar to what Courtney has experienced. I think my thing is more so calling out some sort of perceived proximity to whiteness. Because a lot of people look at me and the first question, this even happened to me yesterday. I was at a bar and a guy was like, so what are you mixed with? And I was like, we've been communicating in this whole time. I was like, I'm not mixed with anything. Mom's black, dad's black. It's it. Like that's, it's all I've got for you. It's like Mississippi and West Virginia and American history. Like that's it, but it's not the first time that I've heard that or anything. And I'm just like, so is that what attracts you to me? Is that like perceived that perceived proximity? Or are you just really into me as the successful black woman that I am? And I think what we tend to do is to maybe not even overcompensate, but we try to explain ourselves and why we do want to wear our hair natural and we're not mixed. And we, we go through that whole process as a black woman and then we may come off as aggressive or, you know, all those negative stereotypes that people label us as. And then it's like, that wasn't even our intention. We just want to live in our authentic self. And why isn't that enough? Absolutely. And so for you, never having had someone said that, how do you know that it impacts your relationships? Hmm. That's a good question. I think for me, it wouldn't necessarily be, I think that I, and this is, this is what's stopping me on my tracks because I literally just had a conversation with two successful black men and they literally, well, one of them literally told me that they only prefer to date white women. And this was at a bar with other black women that I met and we were all having a conversation. And it really struck me because of the reasoning. It was very stupid. I can wake up with oral sex from them and you guys don't do that. And I'm like, that's your reasoning. Did you speak to the black woman president who gave you a list of the do's and do nots? And it was like, look, if you want to enter the club, where did he collect this? Where's this coming from? I have no clue. But I was like, okay, that's your narrative. That's very interesting. You know, I've heard the same thing from like, I had a, I have a cousin, a younger cousin and his whole thing is that he likes white women for the same reasons. And I'm just like, but why? Like, how is that changing anything? Like, why, why do you have this perception? And it's something that I don't understand and him being so young because I'm only 26. So him being like younger than 24 is just like, well, where'd you get this from? When did you come to a space where you gave yourself permission to be beautiful or to be seen as beautiful? And did you have to make that decision? Was that, I guess, back to that marketing, was that choice that you are beautiful that you were desired made for you? Or did you have to make it for yourself? So I say that that idea for me came from when I went to Spelman. So being surrounded by beautiful black women who are successful, who are doing everything, just being so amazing. So obviously, Spelman being historically black college has that marketing there. That's what they're promoting. That's what they're trying to get. They're trying to get the women who matriculate there to have that confidence to see themselves away that words matriculate. Thank you for that. Look at who just see themselves and follow kind of in the footsteps of the women who came before. But it wasn't until I was surrounded by beautiful black women who were working for Goldman Sachs and me working for NASA and my friends, you know, like all of us having these like really amazing jobs and being in these amazing places all together and then studying because I was a math major, so seeing only black faces, black women faces, and then we would all get dressed and go to the club and being like, yes, it wasn't there, you know, growing up. So I know it took until 18, 19, 20 to like really get into that mindset of you are beautiful because when I was in the predominantly white schools, I wasn't desirable. I wasn't, you know, what all of my peers were looking for, you know, they were looking for white women. They were looking for Latino women. When I went to high school, and I was one of the only predominantly African American women, it was a culture shock for me. That's where I learned so many different cultures, right? And I knew that I was unique then because back then I wasn't about the natural hair. I was like, I need my straight hair. I need to blend in as much as possible even before getting there, even before getting there. I knew that I needed to blend in. This memory always sticks in my mind. It's like, I had a crush on the same person from Senior Kindergarten all the way up like, and to a point, it was consistent. And to the point that like I knew where he lived. And to this day, I think if someone said my name to him, we've never had a conversation because I never even acknowledged as possible he could like me. And I remember there was this like list that came out of all the people that he liked. And all the girls were passing around like his list like, oh, Devin's list. Shout out to Devin. Devin's list came out. Devin wish he had that. And I was like, oh, can I see it? And this girl turns to me and she was like, why do you care? Not like you're ever going to be on it. And it was just that thing of like, why would I be on this list? And I accepted that as normal. And it wasn't until BET came out, which then my self, my vision, the light-skinned girl, was constantly positioned as sexy, was constantly positioned as attractive, that I was able to start switching that narrative for myself. And in some ways that led to some damaging decisions because I only saw myself objectified. But in other ways, it also gave me permission out there in the world to walk around like, I'm shiny. Like look at me. I'm shiny. I could be on that list. So I'm curious for you guys, was there a moment for you where you had to be like, no, I'm on the list. It was actually when I met with you, like just knowing and instilling that value was like, Kourt, you're great. And I'm like, she might be right. She might be right. Let me just take control basically and say, all right, I'm going to talk to whoever I decide because I know my conversation is great. I know, I know a lot about different topics. So it was, it was, it was having someone quiet that doubt that we all have and just say, no, you're fine. Go do it. And the rewards are beneficial because any room I walk into, I can be my goofy loud or quiet self, but you're going to love talking to me. You're going to love that experience with me. And I can do that with an 82 year old war veteran, or I can do that with a two year old toddler that's just trying to walk and crawl. Like it's like it's, it's a different type of power and control that you have, but you do have to take it. Sometimes people don't even know that you have low self-esteem or you're doubting yourself if you just show up and show up in that energy anyway. Right. Like it's thinking about like, you know, you standing in the line again at the club, right? You know, your name ain't on the list, but you go up to the front and you be like, check the list. No, check it again. Yes. And then he'll be like, okay, well go ahead. You and your friends go ahead and come on in. You know what I mean? It's like, it's because you had enough guts to go up there and be like, sir, let me in this door. I deserve to be here. You know, everybody else in the line going to be hating, but it's, it don't matter. But hot girls always walk up to the front of the line. Always. And they have confidence to do it. Right. It's the other ones that's like, oh, I don't know if we going to get in girl. You know, those are the ones that never get in, but you know what? It'd be them ugly girls. You do sometimes see come to the front of the line and get in like, wait a minute. Now, she'd look like that. How did that confidence? Like no, wait a minute. How did she get in and I didn't know that's, that's what self-esteem looks like. I don't think we even recognize the fact that our expectations are internal expectations are so easily read out loud. And so if you don't expect, and that's why I say to people like the physical appearance, there was a study, right? Where this girl didn't get a mirror. She wasn't allowed to look at herself for two days. And for one day she went out and like, you're not we're going to make up your hair is not done. Just go out there into the world. And then the next day they had a makeup artist that did her makeup, but there was actually no makeup. She was just brushing nothing on her skin. And they asked her about the differences in her experience and she's like, the next day I was treated better. People were kinder to me. And it wasn't, it was just her expectation to be, she expected to be treated better. She expected to be like, she expected to be looked at. So she treated herself as such. And so that also I think has a lot to do with it. That's what I was going to say. I was going to say the inner narrative because we're already expecting different races to be like nah, I'm cool on her. But that's not the truth. But I do want to acknowledge that there are truly a whole group of people, black men and women who are just all about that black love. And that's just all, and that's just it. They're like, I want black and black, black, black babies. And that's just the way it's going to be, you know? And that's fine too, right? We're not saying that that's not okay, but we have to be aware of all aspects of it. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm like, look, I'm just saying French fries can be fried a different way. Yes. French fries going to be a French fry. And season the different way. And season the different way. There was this study by PEW Research Center that said that newly wed black men are twice as likely as newly wed black women to be intermarried. So if a, does that make sense to you guys at stat? Okay, good. So here's the question, I guess, in order to shift the narrative, do we have to shift that stat? Or is that not a question that we should even have because black women should just want who they want? Yeah, that's my deal. Just want who you want. Like I don't care if they black brown or in between. Like just live your best life. And the whole goal is to find your person, period, right? The person that buys with you, person that connects with you, who understands you, who's willing to rock with you and your foolery that comes attached to it. Like your bonnet. Listen, your bonnet. Listen, the twist out, they got to happen a little Felicia twist. Listen, all of that, you know what I mean? And if that person is not black, so be it. Like the goal is happiness. But are our black women stopping themselves from achieving the goal? Are we preventing herself from achieving the goal by limiting the ways that we can win? So I will say based off of my experience on dating ads is that I actually, I swipe on everybody. And what I find is I'll match with a select amount of people outside of my race. What about everyone? Like you do just like, let's go. No, I swipe on the people that I find attractive. Yeah. No, not any and everybody. Come on. We've gone through this process. We've gone through this process. So yes, you know, I go through the bio, I go through the pictures, you know, do they have a diverse set of pictures? You know, can I see? Yes. So, but I'm also not only swiping on black men. What I'm finding is that, especially like on bumble, where women have to reach out first, only black people respond back to me. So I might match with people, but only black men respond back to me. So that's who, and I've already like, we already discussed how like, even if we respond back, getting that date further is even like more difficult. So I'm just not in that pool of like dating people outside of my race because even in a situation like that, where it's just like, it's not happening. I feel that black women are stifling themselves if you are only swiping on black men. I know you're not, but I'm like, if you are out there only saying, well, I only want black love, then absolutely. But if you're really trying to find yourself, or find that person that's going to be there for you or be compatible with, you are highly limiting yourself. Because even who's not to say, if you're swiping on all these ethnicities and you do swipe on a black person, you have a great conversation, then so be it. But what if that person's an Indian person, or what if that person, specific Islander, it doesn't matter. The compatibility has nothing to do with the shell that's on our bodies. Like that's nothing. So I love when Asian guys, and that's what's crazy. You set the stat of like, it's low Asian men, like She's like, This is Issa Rae's thing. Issa Rae's got in trouble for saying that that Asian men should get together. Let me tell you the best like self discovery I've had in myself. And even conversations and activities have all been with Asian men. Like it kind of blew my mind. I'm like, wait a minute. We're ethnicity that both works hard. We're both like very smart. We also know what it feels like to be at the bottom of the totem pole and not be desired. There's a commonality between all of that. Do you understand that's like breeding for superpowers? Like it literally is. Like if we go based on stereotypes only, Asians are the smart ones and black people are the athletic ones. I'm sorry. Don't you want a smart athletic baby? Well, black women are the most educated group in America. The most. The most. So what y'all waiting out on? Why y'all? Why y'all sitting there looking dumb? Why? Get with the smart woman who's beautiful. Y'all are sitting there looking dumb. But it's like, I don't know why. I went on a date with the Russian guy and I'm like, this is, this is interesting. And you do find, you do find similarities in people who don't look like you. The goal of this podcast is to get people in a position of aptitude. It's not just like listening and understanding. It's having a point of a jump off point to say, okay, well here's how I'm going to make a change in my life. And so if you are a black woman listening to this podcast right now or watching this video right now and you are trying to get to a space where you give yourself permission to feel desired, to be desired in a world that hasn't made that lane for you, that hasn't paved that way for you, what is the jump off point? What is the starter point? I'm all about going deeper. So because I'm a therapist, I want to go back and explore all of the different scenarios and maybe even your upbringing where you felt like you were unwanted, right? Because I really do a lot of, believe that a lot of the stuff that we experience come from our upbringing, whether that's good, bad or indifferent, even with dating and how we do a relationship is what we saw or didn't see with our parents and all of that stuff. So I will take it all the way back and say like, let's explore some of those times where you felt like you weren't wanted. What did that look like? And then more than likely we're going to make a current connection with that. I'll say circling back to like identifying those things that make you awesome in repeating them to yourself. So if somebody was like, I feel like I'm not wanted, I'd just be like, well, do you want you and what do you want about you? What is awesome? Think about those things that make you happy. You're your closest friends. What do they love about you? And if you're repeating those things to yourself and you're going out and probably you're like, yeah, I have something to offer. I have these things because this is what I love about myself and this is what those who are closest to me love about me too. If I had to do a call of action and to what would be desirable is it might be because I'm from the South and our Southern hospitality is always that charm. And I've kind of narrowed it down to just speaking. Literally people who are desired and who gravitate to people or people who just say, hey, how are you? Good morning. We were trained growing up in the South like, if you're in a room, you better speak. So I still have that. And so anyone who just, if you're in Starbucks or if you're anywhere, just, hey, how are you? Just that smile and speaking to someone like, oh, I like that because it's different. Yes. So I'm always played to what the common people don't think about. And I'm like, it's simple. So if you're struggling, just speak up. Just say, hey, how are you? Oh, I like your shirt. Hey, those are nice shoes. Easy. And that's going to be people, people can't really be mean to you if you say something nice about them. If they are, then just run. But more people will say, thank you. I appreciate that. And that's going to instill your confidence that you can speak up and be presented anywhere. Any country you go to, any state you go to, doesn't matter. Just speak and say hello. Once you start that inner work of the self love and accepting all of who you are, right? And we talked about before we started therapy, right? You know, I gotta, you know, I gotta throw that in there. But making sure that you're in the space to say, you know what, I accept all of who I am. And that's the only way that I'm going to be able to track someone who's going to accept all of who I am because I'm in that right space. So I would tell that person to work on themselves, work on that self love. And at least that's the first part of the process. Agreed. Yeah, I would say identifying what you have to offer. So that just goes right along the same lines, what you, what you have and just like embracing that and telling that to yourself in your head as you're, as you're going out and just giving yourself that extra boost of confidence, not relying on outside sources to give you that, but walking in a room and being like, yeah, I'm the shit. Okay, I'm here. All right. What can you bring me? What can you, what can you add? Or what can we add to each other to make this work? Not being like, okay, what can I just give you? And what can, you know, just taking in what you have, using that as a confidence boost and just getting out there. So a girl said, I'm dark skin and I don't feel sexy when I go out in public. I would tell her, do you understand people always love what's different? They want something that no one else can have. That's why for whatever reason, black ice cream, like charcoal ice cream became popular because everyone's like, it's the different, like we know every, we know all the other flavors, we know all the other shades. Look at this dark black. Yeah, let's grab it. You will always be different. So you will always have an advantage. I think what's important and one of the things in the book that I really talk about is the game of desire. It's that like, count yourself into play, count yourself in as a player. You belong here. You are desired. It, everybody has a different starting point as well too. And so I think with black women, there's an acknowledgement that has to happen of like, you have a right in this game. You are here to play and you are a force. But at the same time, let's also acknowledge your start line is a little different, that your work is a little bit heavier than the average person. And that's shit, but that's just the reality of things. But working together, I think conversations like these are so empowering. And I can't even begin to say how all of you in each unique ways in my life have just truly impacted me. So thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing this. Thank you to everybody who's listened so far. And go get the book because these two motherfuckers are in it and they're badass as hell. And if you like this, you're going to love that. Keondra, where can we find out more about you? What are you working on right now? Oh my goodness. So I, can I even say, you know, it's a stuffy top secret. I'm working on a new digital show, so stay connected with me on social media because that's going to be dropping soon. So you can follow me on all things Keondra Jackson. That's K-I-A-U-N-D-R-A. Or you can check out my website, KeondraJackson.com.