 Welcome to American Issues Take One. I'm Tim Hapuchel, your host. Today's title is Nikki Haley, Gather Support and Money. Major announcement made by the Americans for Prosperity Action Committee. And that is the Koch Brothers established PAC, some call it dark money PAC, that has gotten off the sidelines and is in full support of Nikki Haley as a candidate to replace Donald Trump for the 2024 GOP nomination. A major event and we're gonna discuss the details of that with my co-host, Jay Fidel, and our special esteemed guest, Chuck Crumpton. Gentlemen, good morning. Morning, Tim. Morning, Chuck. Tim, Tim, Jay. Yeah. You run out of esteem. No, we won't. We may run out of rain today, but we won't run out of esteem. Hey, Jay, this is a major announcement that I think puts a lot of wind in Nikki Haley's sale. This organization, AFP, Americans for Prosperity, is a group that has over $70 million in it. That's quite a war chest for a politician that has been doing some better numbers in the polling and is inching up. And it's a real boost for Nikki Haley. It's a detraction for Ron DeSantis because they were formally supporting him and now they're not. Jay, your thoughts about AFP and this announcement that Nikki Haley is their anointed one. You know, it's more than just the money. It's the financial leadership. Like when you have an investment and a lead investor steps up, all the other investors follow the lead investor. So whatever the lead investor is gonna invest is only a fraction of what the company will get because of that phenomenon. And I think it's the same here. There's $70 million a lot of money, but it's gonna be much more than that when you get finished with all the people following. Furthermore, my reaction is, she's a pretty good candidate as far as the Republicans are concerned. She's not crazy like Trump and she's not crazy like DeSantis either. And she's got the money. It's actually for them, it's a good break because otherwise I think they were stuck in the notion that Trump was the one, the only one and that no one would really contend with him. I think this means that somebody will contend with him and possibly even beat him. It also shows DeSantis that he's really not gonna make it. He's done. So the question to me is not only whether Nikki Haley will be able to form up a good competition to Trump with the nomination, but whether she could possibly beat Joe Biden. She's got baggage and not as much baggage as Trump or DeSantis, but it's Republican baggage. It's not a surprise baggage. And in some ways it's even moderate. I mean, I wouldn't vote for her, but in some ways it's even moderate. And this is refreshing in a larger picture because she will not be a crazy candidate. So I think the Koch brothers, Charles Koch, I think they've done her a favor, but I think they've done the Republican party a favor and maybe even the country. Well, that's the operative point is the country. If you're concerned about the preservation of democracy in this country, certainly the rule of law that goes with that, your concern is that anyone that is palatable other than Donald Trump. And does that message appeal to the independence and the moderates in the GOP party? Or possibly those Democrats, believe it or not, that are not happy with Joe Biden. Does Nikki Haley have that air of appeal for all three categories? Yeah, I think she does. The only question is the degree, how many? How many voters can she eat off the margins? And maybe some, maybe some, maybe enough to make a difference. I mean, after all, she's got a position and not so bad. There was a piece in the, I think it was the Washington post listing all her positions. And to a moderate Republican, they might appeal. And that means a lot. And I think two people who are willing to give money, the Koch brothers' contribution is gonna mean a lot. And Trump is getting wilder and crazier and all his Berman talk is really gotta be hurting him with at least some of his space. So as I said, I think it's good news and it may be bad news for Joe Biden. Okay, thank you, Jay. Hey Chuck, do you agree with what Jay just said? That this is good news for Nikki Haley and good news for those moderates and or and or independents that do care about our constitution and our democracy and find Trump completely not to be tolerated. Is this a safe avenue with Nikki Haley? Yeah, and it's always good to see Jay back to his consistently brilliant self and insightful self. I do it for you, Chuck. Well, that's that I never did it for me. That works for me. So I do want to correct one thing as I think because... I'll do some of it for you, Chuck. In acronyms, you're not supposed to use the preposition or the article, right? So the original name of that organization as a conservative Republican, you know, the rest of it, right? The acronym is much more accurate. I follow you. Okay, but what Jay's hit on, which is probably the most important thing, is this is another, not the first, not the last, but another really important indication that there is a real and growing portion of Republicans that are not with Trump, that are recognizing, hey, this guy's lost three years in a row, the risk of him losing is too great and the risk of what happens even if he wins is too great. We need an alternative. And the funding for that, the people with that is clearly growing. It's not reflecting the polls because they're not looking for that. But the third factor I think that's really important here is that because that element of choice has now been raised for the first time with any real backing, real money, real support, you may start to see increasing divisions, increasing people who are willing to stand up on the Republican side and say, you know what, we should support Ukraine. You know what, we should keep the budget and keep the deficit to allow the economy to proceed. We should not crash it just over. And we should stop this nonsense of disabling our military leadership because one guy wants an abortion policy in the military that's not gonna happen. So all of those things I think are signs that over on the Republican side of the fence, although it's still a very ineffectual minority, it's real, it's growing and it's funded. And that has to give Trump pause. Now the question is what has to happen to continue to feed that growth, to make it effective before the primaries paint an irreversible picture of the Republican nomination? That's- You know, Iowa caucus is a mere seven weeks away, I believe. And although this data is a little old, it's October 30th from the Des Moines Register and the NBC poll in Des Moines in Iowa, had Trump at 43%, Nikki Haley at 16%, Ron DeSantis at 16%. Moving forward, isn't it crucial or not crucial that some of these candidates drop out and those numbers start to coalesce around Nikki Haley? How important is that? I think Chris Christie said he's in for the long haul, but probably DeSantis will probably be in as well, but what about the other candidates that are out there and how important is it for them to either throw their support behind someone who can take on Trump or throw their support behind Trump? Well, it's a great question because the question for those guys is do they wanna risk a chance at getting to be Trump's vice president or are they willing to take a shot at actually engineering directional momentum change in the Republican Party in which they might have a chance to become Nikki Haley's vice president? Well, that's to be the choice. I mean, for me, that's an easy choice. Well, if you're one of those candidates, they're probably going, oh, shoot, Shucks. Looks like Tucker Carlson has the vote. Oh, God. Let me add something to what Shucks said. I mean, really, you took the words out of my mouth on the whole issue of this reflects a kind of fracture in what seemed only a week or two ago would be a clear direction for Trump's nomination. Now it's not so clear. There's another sheriff in town. And of course, there's a couple of questions on whether she can actually do it between now and the time of those primaries. But I'd like to add one point to what you said. It also indicates that maybe just as a lead investor like the Koch brothers would bring other investors, if Haley emerged as the candidate, I think it would change the complexion of the country on the congressional races around the country. It would say, well, maybe we ought to look for rationality here. Maybe we're on a new wave. We are not only gonna favor somebody else over Trump, we're gonna favor somebody else over the Trumpers. And maybe we'll have more moderate wins in other Republican primaries and elections over the next year. So I think it has a double effect. Koch brothers and her emergence over the past week or two seems to me will also have an effect on all the congressional races. And we'll see different dynamic because of it. Could you envision Democrats contributing to her campaign financially? That's a really interesting question because there are Democrats who are with Biden in name only, who increasing the question his competence and age and leadership. And maybe they would think she's a better bet to go further on Schuck's point. She favors aid to Ukraine and she favors aid to Israel. And that's unambiguous. So she may be offering something to a lot of people, including Democrats who would wanna follow that lead. It also depends, I mean, this is all a moving target. It's a moving target as far as Trump is concerned, it's a moving target as far as Haley is concerned. It's a moving target as far as Biden is concerned. Anything can happen any day to change the calculus. I don't think it's a moving target for DeSantis. And as much as I appreciate Chris Christie and his rhetoric, I think he's out. So really the question is whether the country, the Republican party, as you say to him, some Democrats even would get behind Haley. And I was gonna say, one of the dynamics in play, which we have to watch is like, her advisors must be rubbing their hands with the possibility and saying, how can we get her over the hurdle here? How can we get her into first place? We have to watch everything she says, everything she does. We have to package and repackage her on every issue. And there are inconsistencies as reported in the post, between things she said on one occasion and things she said on the other. And get rid of those inconsistencies and develop a platform which actually could bring along some, what do you wanna call it, marginal Democrats. So the answer to your question is, I think it's entirely possible if she doesn't write. And I'd love to be, and not that I would ever, ever do this for a Republican, but I'd love to be on her advisory committee because I think there are tremendous options for her to actually repackage or package her positions so that they appeal to a wider spectrum of voters. Hey Chuck, when Trump gets a little nervous, you can see his fingerprints all over his spokespersons. Stephen Chow, he is the spokesperson for Donald Trump's campaign, 2024 campaign. And he's responded quite quickly to the support from AFP. And he said, there are the political arm of China. First of, China first, American last movement. He has chosen to endorse a pro-China, open borders and globalist candidate, Nikki Birdbrain Haley. Does that sound like Donald Trump or does that sound like a spokesperson came up with that all on their own? Rhetorical question and a good one, right? Because one of the questions that Nikki Haley raises, it's an inference from the brilliant points that Jay has just covered, is are Republicans going to be receptive to the potential first Republican president in this century that can actually speak intelligible English? That's a challenge. That is a challenge. And reason. And she does quite well actually, from what I've seen her do on the debate stage and in interviews, she's well spoken. Haley Trump debates would be worth watching. It's the only Trump debate that would be, but it would be. Well, let me say that she's very presentable. She knows how to walk, talk and present herself well. She's a woman, that's a disability. I think it's probably a disability that she's not white. That's the way it goes. And it's a reflection of our demography. And I think her time in the United Nations makes her a globally aware person. I don't know if that really matters to a lot of the electorate, but it matters to me that she has global awareness. And she's taken positions, which I would agree with in the United Nations as the United Nations ambassador, delegate representative, whatever it is. So I think she has some real positive points. And I think she knows government. After all, she was governor for several years in South Carolina. She knows government from the inside of the United Nations representation. And she's not naive. In other words, Chuck, if you put her up there on a stage with Trump, he's not gonna be able to walk on her. She can respond to him. She's tough. Only women are able to do that if you watch the women report. And she's under 75. That's a big plus. Yes, young, vital, all that, all that. And it didn't hurt that Hillary Clinton kind of broke the glass ceiling on being a serious candidate for President of the United States. I think had that not been the case, that might be more of an uphill push for Nikki Haley as the prospective first female president in our country. But go ahead. I'd like to ask you guys, put her up on that stage. Put her in contention with Trump. What does he do? You're right. He goes after the men, not the women. But in this case, you have to ask whether he's gonna go after her as the primary opponent. And if so, what is he gonna call her birdbrain too? It's hard to find something to pry up under her that would resonate with the electorate. It's hard to call her names, but that is his default position. That's what he always does. He comes up with his name. But not with women. He does not do that with women. He may have to. Well, but look at all of his press conferences and what happened in exchanges with strong progressive women, independent women. He fled. He'd literally fled. He didn't fled with Hillary Clinton. No, no, but that wasn't a press conference. I'm talking about where he was fielding pointed serious questions and wouldn't answer that. And they challenged him on that. And then he tried to switch to another person. They said, hey, answer her question first. And then he fled. Not once, not twice, but multiple times he fled exchanges with women, independent press. Okay, so what does he do? What does he do? He's gonna do something. He's gonna do something nasty. He's gonna try to find some dirt on her. He will not debate with her. Trump will not debate with. He doesn't wanna debate with anyone. He doesn't have to debate to be nasty. He can do it all by himself at his rallies. He can call her names. He can find something on her to play with and paint her as a negative person. I guess that's what he will do. And I agree with you. He's not gonna be on the stage with her. It's too dangerous. But that doesn't mean he can't call her names. He's been very successful at calling people names. It's something out of his childhood, calling people names in the schoolyard being a bully. That's what he does. Yeah, it's not gonna work for him with Nikki Haley. For two reasons. One, she's strong, independent, more articulate, more intelligent than he is, and we all know that. And number two, women are already galvanized against Trump. He takes credit for having taken away their right to make reproductive rights decisions for themselves. She has a mixed bag in that position. Trump? No, Haley has a mixed position. If you look through the various expressions of policy that she's made, she sort of switches from one to the other. Yeah, but it's Trump that people, he commands people's attention. He wants the spotlight and he thinks he shines in it. But if he uses it to attack a woman, I guarantee you that will not go well for him. Let me ask you this, Chuck. Do you trigger that? Does she get- He's one of the primaries. Does she become more aggressive in criticism of Donald Trump? Or does she live that up to Chris Christie to act as her foil? No, she says and does stuff that she knows will provoke him. Because he has no self-restraint. He has no- He's a narcissist. They can't control their behavior because they don't want to and they believe it works for them. Their behavior is exactly what Jay said. It is attacking others. It's not gone well for him with women. He has so far at least started to listen to people who say cut that stuff out. But I'm sure she can trigger him. I'm sure she can push his buttons. Well, there's two sides to it. One is she cannot be provoked. All the name-calling in the world she should not run and she won't respond to that. She'd be classy. She'd be elegant compared to him. The second thing is that she would let him fall on his own sword. If I were on her committee, that's what I would tell her. Just let him fall on his own sword. He's doing a great job at that. And so let him call your names, whatnot, don't respond and let him look stupid and mean and all that. I think that's what she will do. And that will work. That will work and it'll make him look like he's misogynist, which is exactly what he is. But I'd like to ask another question, Tim. And really quick before you do that, I think that really deserves the emphasis. Trump does do that with women underlings. He attacks judges clerks. He attacks Cassidy. He attacks women underlings that he regards as inferior beings and he can get away with that with. That has not gone well from either. So please proceed here with your question. Well, I was thinking what is the potentially optimistic view here is that she takes the nomination. She takes it using good thoughtful positions on policy. And she deals with Trump and he fails against her. And to Santas and Christie and whatever else, they all go away because she's the strongest. And I think the press means so much, Tim. To your concern about the press always, I think the press, as we are getting behind her, as the Koch brothers are getting behind her, and the press will is already elevating her. So she stands a chance of getting the nomination against Trump as a reasonable. The question then is if she gets the nomination and it's Haley V. Biden, what happens then? Where does it look? Well, there's another thing that is the corollary to that, which is if she were to get the nomination and win, the far right mega power in the House and in the party is not going to survive. She's not going to allow room for that. She's a strong, independent, progressive woman. She knows that has no place in this household. You, out in the yard, watch. Well, that's a great point, Chuck. What does the mega GOP do if she supplants Donald Trump as the nominee in 2024? Do they go berserk like we all fear that they would? Do we have violence in the street, or do they just lick their wounds and go away and go under the rock in which they came from? Well, it's a clear, easy choice for them. They have to stick with Trump because he's all they've got. Once you stick with Trump, he is all you've got. Nothing else is available because no one else will touch him other than his devotees. But if she wins the nomination, if she becomes the candidate for president, all the Republicans will see that there's no mileage in fighting with that. There's no mileage in backing Trump when Haley got the nomination. And I think they will turn to support her. And the Freedom Caucus and all those nutcases in Congress, they will have no choice but to support her. Where else are they? They're out to dry. They're abandoned. They're in the desert. Without Trump, they have to support Haley as the nominee. So the question is, will the alliances to do that take place in sufficient strength and numbers during and before the nomination, during the primaries and before the nomination, to enable her to get that nomination? That's the question. You know, I'm reminded, Grige, you and I did a show actually the day of when we both called Joe Biden out back in, you know, back in 2020. We said, or 2019, we said, he's out. He's done. He's flambéed. He's not going to be the nominee for the Democratic nomination. It was Jim Clyburn that brought him back to life. And then the next day, well, in South Carolina, he prevailed. And then the next day, it's Super Tuesday, he prevailed in all those events. So it doesn't take much. I mean, I've never seen that in political history such a turnaround that Joe Biden had and thanks to Jim Clyburn. At what point do we know that Nikki Haley is on her way? What if she does poorly in Iowa and she does poorly in New Hampshire? Is it South Carolina, which is the dividing line of what she's a go or no go? That's her home state. And I apologize because I'm going to have to jump in a minute. But she has to do two things. She has to isolate Trump and his supporters because they don't have the numbers to win without the independence and the others. They're not even close. 30%, 40%, but not even close. The second thing she has to do is she has to focus and center on that. The choice between her and Trump going forward. If she does that. I know that you have to leave. So do you have your last thoughts before you depart? That was it. That was it. OK. If Nikki Haley can isolate Trump, if she can be a strong independent woman and stand up to him as only strong independent woman women can successfully do, she can present a candidate to the American people that probably is likely to win if she gets the nomination. I think so. OK. Thanks, Chuck. Thanks for coming on. Our special esteemed guest, Chuck Crumpton. Thank you, Chuck. Take care. Thank you, Chuck. Jay, I'm optimistic. For the first time, there is a possibility that Donald Trump may not be the 2024 nominee. And if he's not, I think the threat of losing our democracy and a rule of law in this country, that dissipates rapidly. And I'm not in line with Nikki Haley's policies, but it's a palatable alternative to the loss of one's democracy, a 250-year experiment that's been going on pretty well, has some bumps and bruises along the way. But that's the system we've gotten. It's worked quite well. And I feel optimistic that if she is the nominee 2024 for the GOP, that we may be able to do just that, preserve the republic and democracy as we know it. Yeah, that possibility really strikes me as I was interested in your views about it. Because A, if I'm a Democrat, I can feel the optimism. I can feel it. Because we have assumed over the past few months that Trump recently was the candidate and would be a strong runner for president in November. But this changes the views of Democrats in similar situations. And I believe it also changes the views of Republicans who are more moderate. They can also feel optimistic. And that suggests a kind of snowball effect. So you have the Koch brothers. You have her credentials, which are good. And the moderate quality of her positions, the Republican moderate, but moderate nevertheless. And that makes you feel somewhat optimistic. And then the question is, who else gets on the snowball? And I think there will be people announcing, Republicans announcing support for her. I'm just predicting, and maybe I'm over optimistic about this, that we'll see more of that. And the question is whether the hard-nosed right-wing crowd will turn and support her. If they see that she's a likely success, they'd rather have her than a Democrat, right? If they feel she's a winner, they're going to get behind her. And if that starts happening, that will be more snowball and change the calculus. They may not do that because they are so hard-nosed. But I think there's at least a logical possibility of it. And to your point about democracy and voting rights and the like, Trump has established, through sinister means, all these plots and devices to turn the election over in 2024, do the same thing more successfully than he tried to do in 2020. And so you have various Republican states which have done voting suppression legislation and gerrymandering and the like. And you have his basic insurrectionist plot and crowd where he will deny losing and try to force himself despite the popular vote. And all those things are in place now. And those things are his kit bag, all his inventory of tricks and devices. But if she gets the nomination, all of that goes away. Nobody is going to be interested in suppressing votes. Nobody is going to be interested in turning the election over with insurrections and the like. The whole thing just washes away. And we have a much more, I mean, sure there'll be problems hither and yon, but it's a much, it's a likelihood of a much more fair election in 2024. And that would be a great relief for Democrats and moderate Republicans. So we have to watch the snowball, Tim. Yeah, and I suspect we're going to be talking about Nikki Haley in many shows to come. You know, at some point, maybe we need to get a historian that focuses on presidential elections and opine whether or not how often Democrats are secretly hoping for a GOP candidate. I don't know if it's ever been done before, but there's a lot of things that have never been done before in the last seven years. True. A young and diverse woman with real credentials and experience in government. It all sounds pretty attractive. And she's got the vitality maybe that we have been missing in Biden. And she's got the international awareness and the strength of position and character on international issues. And that maybe just maybe, I don't have a real view of this yet, but maybe just maybe she would be stronger on the world stage. And I would welcome that. Yeah, well, not to put you on the spot, but that's what I'm going to do to my co-host, my partner. And that is earlier in the show, you said you'd like to be an advisor on Nikki Haley's advisory committee. So here's a question between now and whether or not she becomes the nominee for the GOP, does she take issue with Donald Trump's fascist rhetoric? Does she put a spotlight on his tendencies to overthrow free and fair elections and his position on retribution and hollowing out key law enforcement agencies, the DOJ, the FBI? Does she put a spotlight on that? Or is that something that's going to detract from support from other voters? I don't think a lot of voters actually support Trump's positions and his rhetoric on that. So if I were advising her, I would say, just state your own position. And you may say other candidates may have other views, but this is my view. And I think that's where she's tending to anyway. And as I said before, let him fall on his own sword. I would not have a big argument and everything with him. And I certainly would not call him names. I would really say, you have that candidate and then you have me. This is the, these are my positions. And I think that will really, that will respond to any snowball effect and it would increase the snowball effect. The problem, I don't know if there's been any press about this, the problem is at some point if she sees that she might be vice president, vice presidential candidate under him, she probably wants to hold back and maybe support him more, not less. But I think she has the strength of character not to be compromised that way. And I think she's in a position in the continuum here where she wouldn't be compromised that way. So I'm not too concerned about it. If she compromised in order to become a vice presidential candidate under him, I would be extremely disappointed. And you would too, and everybody that I know would be disappointed because it would be, she was compromising to a madman. Good point. And like we've seen in the past, many vice presidents are put in the corner and never to be heard from again, more or less. Right. And that's probably would be her fate. Interesting discussion, fascinating discussion. Jay, last thoughts before we conclude. As you said, this is something that we might be encouraged about. We're in an interesting position because ordinarily we extoll the virtues of democratic candidates in various races. But here we are extolling the virtues of Nikki Haley as someone, anyone who would run against Trump. So she might win. Who knows? She may be our next president if she gets that nomination. And that's so much less threatening than Trump's nomination and the possibility that Trump may win, which would be the end of our world. Our world and the world in general. So if you had to pick, if you as a Democrat or one who supports Democrat, Democratic candidates had to pick between Haley and Trump, there's no question about it. She has a much better possibility than let the voters decide. Great points. Thank you, Jay, as always. Thank you for being on American Issues, Take One. I think that we're gonna hear more about Nikki Haley as time evolves. And I'm with you. I think she's a palatable alternative and I wish her all the luck in the world. So with that being said, why don't you join us next week? I'm Tim Apachele, your host. And again, American Issues, Take One. We'll see you next week. And until then, aloha.