 Thank you for staying with us on Y254 News and if you are just joining us tonight we are talking about consent in age and our question is, should the consent in age be lowered, that is from 18 to 16 and with me in studio is Eric Havo, a reverend at the ACK St. Poz and Sylvia Maru with a social worker. Thank you very much guys for finding time to come and talk about this thing with us because this is a very sensitive issue and some judges came out and say that they think that the sexual consent age should be lowered from the age of 18 to 16. Our first question for tonight would be, do you agree to that and why? It's a gray area for me if you ask me. It's a yes or no but my no goes strongly. If I ask anyone and it's a even the reverend is here. I don't know if he asks his followers, maybe the teenagers, when was the first sexual encounter. So I think I'll come back to that and let him first talk about it. So Eric do you agree to this? Absolutely I can't agree to that. I can approve to it and as part of the religious body and you know part of the religious body now me being here I'm actually saying it's a no. If you allow me maybe just give you a gray as she was actually talking about. But one thing I can tell you is why should you allow young people, let's talk about children here. Children begin to involve themselves into sexual activities. First of all the constitution under the labor laws strictly and very proper talks about you should not have underage and underage you're talking about 18 years. Yes and below. If they work that is child labor. So here you having somebody, a child you want them to get involved into sexual activities. At the end of the day they might find themselves giving birth maybe at the age of maybe 16 years old or maybe 17 years. They will need to have those children, that child that they bought, they need to look for something to give them, to feed them. They need employment. I mean which kind of employer is going to employ? Somebody doesn't have an ID. First of all that is creating confusion. They are going to depend on their parents. They are going to bring more confusion to their families and of course they will be able to give you more if the term allows. So now the argument is that our kids know way too much. They are exposed to a lot of information and there is no way that we can be able to really probably limit what they know. Do you think that is it a right argument? I think it's a lazy argument if you ask me. It's really a lazy argument. We can't say because you know how to cook ugali at the age of 4 then it's appropriate for you to go to the kitchen and cook. What are the dangers that are there? So do you know how to handle the gas if you're using gas? Do you know how to handle the suforia, the boiling water? It's the same case at 16 years. So you are exposed to the knowledge of sex. But does it mean that you have the right in engaging into sex? When we are saying that we give consent to 16 year olds, as Yerezi has already said, an 18 year old can get employment and things. Let us look at sex and look at the consequences. Not just at the sex as an act. And thinking that because we are going to consent then we are going to prevent people from going to jail because even the girls consented. We can't look at it at that from that angle. So I don't see the sense that people have the knowledge. We have to argue that now they can engage in sex. Okay. What about you, Yerezi? They should not. As I was saying, that's not what you are advocating. We are actually advocating for not people to start just looking for ways to satisfy what they know. The fact that somebody has knowledge of something doesn't give them the skillset to do what they know about. There are so many things that I know myself, but I try not to do them because that is not what I want in my life. The fact that these children know too much, we can't just give them. We can't just have people just giving birth to children or maybe having sexual immorality everywhere. Already we are prostitution as an issue. We are having people just branting sponsorship. We already have a crisis. So the fact that now we want to legally allow children to start involving themselves into sexual immorality. It is more than a crisis. It is one of the issues that now we need to be talking about. Because at the end of the day, first of all I talked about there will be issues of unemployment. First of all, let me ask you this. How many graduates do we have who don't have jobs? They are actually out there. They can't feed their families. Now we are bringing our children here to start involving themselves into sexual immorality. Some of them they even don't know more about contraceptives. And if they use them, they might use them in the wrong direction because their minds are still young. They still want to do everything because life is also a skill. How you carry your life is also a skill. So if they don't have that skill. You've mentioned that they are still young. I want to bring out a statement by the judges where they say that they may not have attained the age of maturity, but they may well have reached the age of discretion and are able to make intelligent and informed decisions about their lives and their bodies. Is a 14-year-old really able to decide and make a very firm decision as far as sex or any other decision in life. Are they really ready? Because it's the argument of the judge to say that I think it should be lowered because these people are comfortable. They have made the decision of what they want to do with their bodies. They are quite aware and saying that most of these young people they engage in sex willingly. I'd like to ask why are we normalizing sex? Really, why are we normalizing sex? There are other things when you are growing, but why sex only? So it is your body. But are you in your right state of making the right decision when it comes to sex? Like I said, sex has a long term consequence. I'll just use the four-year-old again. It's not like house chores and stuff. Sex comes with responsibilities. So I'll go back to the judges. Are you informing these people what sex is? Are you informing them why they should engage and why they should not engage in sex before normalizing? That's why I said it's a very lazy excuse from the judges, from the guys who refuse to say we should have sex education in school because people have random ideas about sex. All they know is all they have is curiosity. They want to know. So we are being forbidden about sex. Let us try. Why are we not looking at these people who are overage and are trying to have sex with underage? Yes. Why are we not looking at that? But we are not giving them excuses whereby Ako 16 she consented. It's lazy. Trust me, it's so lazy for you as the judges to sit down and think. So I don't see the need really to be honest. Okay. So kavo. It's more of a moral issue than a legal issue here. Sex is sacred. When you do sex with somebody, you get connected, you soul type. Spiritual professors or whatever they have been able to do, whatever kind of religion they have. They have actually been able to come up and satisfy that this is what happens. It's a soul type. So this is more of a moral issue than of a law issue. We can't actually start bringing too much of things about sex. One thing I also want to add on top is, at the end of the day, the fact that somebody has been educated. Let me give you a very good example. The fact that I have knowledge of something doesn't give me the skill to handle what I know. When somebody gets into a job opportunity, normally given a probation period, to learn on how they will be able to actualize those skills. The fact that you are educated doesn't really make you the best employee. You must have the skills. Just like in marriage, you must have the skills. Marriage is a skill. So even you to contain yourself, it is about a skill. These people don't have skills. You ask them, they don't have mentors. They don't have people, they can ask, even get in sex, what more? What is it more about? They don't have people they can ask. They just want to do, just because they read in a book, having sex with somebody or intercourse, feels this way. You actually know about peer pressure. How many things have I, have you been able to be influenced through your peer? It's too much. So at the end of the day, we can't just prove. People can just continue having sex and getting into sexual immorality. I told you we have better issues to deal with. That law needs to protect issues of corruption. The rest we can live to the religious issues. Atu jashindo na kazi. Can I add something on top of this? I think I like to ask who is protecting the innocence of these young ones. That is just the question. So if you are saying that at 16, I can have sex and consent, then at 16, I should be drinking. Every vice you will just roll the case. That is the argument of you. Now that every vice you are changing the sexual consent age from 18 to 16, then we start changing the drinking from 18 to 16. And then we realize that those are the age of 12 and 13, no way too much. And then start thinking again of going to 12. And so my question is, we are talking about not having the freedom to really have sex conversations with the kids in school. Sometimes there is a teacher giving our own views. And she said, we only tell these kids sex is bad. And the moment they engage in it, they realize it is not bad. So what type of information should we now give to the young people? What are we supposed to be telling them? To make sure that we also do not say that we are protecting them and we are guiding them and we are not really going way front with them. Okay. With all honesty, I think all this information should not start from the school. It should start from home. It should start from your guardian, from your parent, from your mother, anyone. And when they are communicating about sex, they should not call it tabiambaya. Yes. That's the phrase that is used. They should not tell you that you are kitu. They should just come out right and tell you that whatever you are carrying is avajay. Now, things like that. So that is where it should be. That is not a problem. Of course. It only goes to fire. But we have to be real. We have to be real. So when it comes to sex, I remember my mum and a lover for this, she insisted on telling me that sex is a beautiful thing but it happens between two people who are in love or are married. Yes. And it was good for my knowledge. And like now, whereby, you are just told, wachana na hiu. If a kid wants to ask about wachana hiu, niki tu wa kupua. What is this that is for big people? That people want to know. I'll give an example whereby you'd find people maybe they are living in... Let's use an example of informal settlement. You'll find that they are living in a one-room house. Maybe the bed is a double decker. The parents are sleeping down and the kids are sleeping on top. So if when the parents are doing the kwachika activities, then the kids will somehow want to emulate whatever their parents are doing. So this issue of sex should just go back to the households and go back to the households where the parents will be sincere what sex is. Sex is an activity that entails a man and a woman. And this is what happens during sex. And this is the experience but it has a time. Also it has a consequence. Remember consequence. And this consequence has an outcome. Are you ready for the outcome? That will be the question. Okay. I want you to deal with this. Is a church, what role is a church playing in this? Does a church encourage us to talk to young kids about sex and be open and be so open about it and tell them what exactly it is, what role does a church have in all this? I'll say the church is really is really doing its work trying to have many conferences if you go through your social media. You find different churches, different denominations. They always have these conferences to do with teens and youth to talk about sex. Some of the churches that are quite open about it I can't really speak for on behalf of all the churches but I can say for us in the Antlik and we have been able to have many kind of conferences for that. But one thing I'll simply go back to and say is that we have people have neglected their roles as a family. I normally say the family comes first before church. So if for example, my family is not in order. I don't know why I should come to the church and do what God tells me to do. But you've not done it at home? Yes, and I've not done it at home. So one thing I'll still go back to I'll continue to say that people are not taking the family very important. They're not sitting down, parents are not sitting down. They're not talking to their children, telling them as my sister just said that this is the right way. This is not the right way. When you do this way this is what is going to happen. Another thing I'm also talking about together with the families that people are not being encouraged to our families. People are just being encouraged to have become single mothers or to have contract marriages. Where are we taking this kind of a life at the end of the day? So the biggest role to be played is by the families. They need to know that the family is where things start before the church. Because this is where you spend more time. The church is just like a small portion of your time. So the family is where a lot of time is taken. And again I'll finish by saying this. If you have a place where the mother and the father is sexualizing everything the children will grow up knowing everything is meant to be sexualized. And again also the media I'm not blaming the media but I have also learned a little bit of some PR but the PR people they normally tell us that if you want something to sell sexualize it, sex sells. So we also have a way at the end of the day trickles down to the parent una endawapi. You're coming back to home your parent should be able to speak to you because that's why you spend a lot of time and also to the schools. Are the teachers doing a lot of time? Are they talking to the children? Are we having there was a debate of having sex education being introduced in school. There is a point at which you can introduce it maybe around when they are teens because they get to understand because curiosity as they say kill the cat. Because if they don't know they will do it because they don't know and somebody says if you think education is expensive try ignorance. So they might be educated but if they are ignorant they will end up in issues. So now what do we do? Because we do not want this consent age to be lowered from 18 to 16. So how now do we protect these kids? How now do we educate them and inform them and create awareness about sex and see more girls in school and also make sure that these people take advantage of teenagers who take advantage of small girls do not have to do that again by not lowering now the sexual consent age. I will begin by saying 18 is an 18 and an 18 does not have the ability to make the right appropriate decisions. So that is where I will begin from. So we will go back to our societies we will go back to our homes we will go back to our schools we will go back to our workplace and every other place that is needed to create this awareness fact is this bill all started because of people being accused there was a story of a lady a man was jailed because the man did not pay the agreement they had with the father. Yes and it was a sense of still the girl consented as in there was consent according to their own story. And like I said before protection is key the law needs to protect the girls the law needs nowadays even boys are being ripped by the way so the law needs to protect the boys too we need to teach people like he said we need to give knowledge about sex let us not be ourselves ignorant that they do not know they know even more than we know we are living in our age of social media where everything is publicized. You would think that it's only Facebook there are so many sites they have so many sites whereby I'll give you a story so there's this app that they have where teenagers 18 and below meet they have sponsors who may be foreigners locals they gather they don't even know who they are chatting with they will be picked maybe from Kenya cinema or from archives and then they are taken for OGs 18 and below oh my god that is the sad reality if we should go on the sad reality remember when I started I told you when is the first age of the first sexual encounter of people many people with the whole it's between 9 and 12 and this 9 and 12 kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa this we should go back to the root course between 9 and 12 when curiosity begins where their innocence is crec now blossoming from torturing babies to be transitioning adults so we should go back to the root course we already seen that 13, 14, 15 are already engaging but hope is lost so we go back to Or are anticipating Maybe because they have grown They are saying it to small changes They are anticipating to have sex In the urban settings it can be a little bit hard to engage in sex But let us go back to our rural areas Kuna shambaya mindi Meni ya wakadu There are so many places where it can be But here, thank God Mama maploat we should love them If they see you doing nimi ya la Wajani, I saw your son We should appreciate this to mamas But I know that is aside We go back to this 9, 10, 11, 12 Create a strong foundation As a parent, communicate to your kid Do not leave your child to be raised by the teachers I do not give the option whereby you think teacher should No, parent should Parent should Then it should start from the home Then we go to the church, then the school, then the everywhere Parent should Let's get carbos thoughts on that Because now we don't want to endanger our kids By saying that 16 is okay to have sex What do we do? Still go back as we were saying To the families If the family The laws that we have for the marriage They are actually so strict People are just taking for granted But the problem came in when People are just taking marriage as a contract I'll still go back to the families And tell every Each and every little parent That they need to do their role When you let social media Become the parent When you let your neighbors Become the parent of your children When you let the world Become the parent The world is never soft They normally say Asifunza na mamayofunza na ulimuengu Ulimuengu teaches you It's tough So at the end of the day The family should be the first to do that We are talking about the churches The churches we are there to pray We are there to have all those I have seen people who come to conferences They become hyped about it For around a week or two But the percentage of the people that change Is quite minimal The church is playing our role But at the end of the day the parents shouldn't do You are the one who made a consent Together with your partner to come with the child So don't start doing things Don't just start bringing children That you can't manage Because you're just bringing somebody to Kutaseka That's one of the greatest problems As she was saying As much as we introduce that kind of education People should be real With each other I love telling people be real with me Because the moment I'll tell you We are real about things We don't start having curiosity I'll just start doing things that I'm just scared not to say But they are just disturbing me I mean I learned a meeting With somebody who has never been taught And they pretend that they know So for me ending up with somebody Who is pretending to know and they don't know I mean the same category So the good thing is Let's go to the families And if somebody doesn't have a family Or maybe orphanage or something At the end of the day Look for somebody who can mentor you Somebody can tell you facts as they are And if you think sex is becoming So much to you As my sister said You might end up having The joy of seconds Or minutes But the rest of your life So you better choose God created trees Never created furniture That means we need to have a mind To think for ourselves Thank you very much guys For finding time to talk about this topic But people really are not going to take this into consideration And probably take it to parliament So I've seen in some counties That they have opposed it So I'm hoping many more people are going to come out And say that we cannot do this to our young kids So parents if you're watching From home you have a young sister You have a young brother Be real with these kids Let's share information But not lie to them and tell them That it has been used Whatever information that is right Use it on the right way And explain to these kids And then we're going to be To have created a very better environment For them to have knowledge And know when they need to use that knowledge That is all we hand for you tonight on Y254 news My name is Patricia Moriuki Do have your say over good night