 Good morning everybody welcome back to another episode of the nonprofit show We have one of our favorite guests of all time on she's like always Makes me have like a hair-and-fire like aha moment every time I talk to her if you were in the green room chatter with us We had another one yet another one Dana Skirlock director of recruitment from staffing boutique coming to us from The amazing Isle of Manhattan correct New York that is absolutely correct Amazing well, I feel like when we're with you We get like the truth and the amazing things because you're in the heart of it sister You're like right there where everything's happening New York is definitely one of the hubs for the the nonprofit Sector, I would say here in DC have the highest concentration of nonprofits in the country Maybe followed closely by like LA But here in New York, we are just saturated in the nonprofit sector, which is great, you know Which is how we've you know staffing boutique is has focused on the nonprofit sector for over ten years now Well today it's going to be really an interesting conversation because we're going to be talking about the intersection of volunteers and staff and this is something that I Swear I can't wait to get your opinion on this because I feel like it ebbs and flows according to what the general Labor market is and so because you're in the know on both sides of this It's going to be fascinating to hear what you have to say and I think that for so many of our viewers and listeners They're gonna really be able to draw some conclusions and maybe some new plans and strategies for their own nonprofits And again, we wouldn't be here without our amazing partners that help us with these conversations And they include Bloomerang American nonprofit Academy nonprofit thought leader staffing boutique your part-time controller 180 management group fundraising Academy at National University JMT consulting nonprofit nerd and nonprofit tech talk We will meet you where you are from our app to streaming broadcast a podcast We want to connect with you so you can help Achieve your mission so we can help you achieve your mission vision and values. Okay, Dana skirlock Director of recruitment staffing boutique Talk to us briefly about what staffing boutique does because whenever we talk to you We have so much information that I never really afford you the opportunity to explain How you fit into our sector so could we take a few moments back the bus up if you will and have you help us understand Even like what your work a day world light is life is like Fantastic. Thank you for the opportunity and you know, thank you for having me on yet again. It's so good to speak with you so I am the director of recruitment at staffing boutique and staffing boutique is a Small to mid-size third-party recruitment firm So what that means is we work with you know, our clients to identify candidates for positions Whether they be temporary assignments meaning they're for a certain amount of time or if they're a direct hire Placement, which is a salary position For which we're conducting the search on the organization's behalf Staffing boutique specifically works within the nonprofit sector Exclusively so all of our clients are nonprofit organizations I would say, you know, the vast majority of the organizations We work with are here in the New York City metro area But that's gonna include, you know, the five boroughs Upstate New York. We even go as far as New Jersey, Connecticut, Long Island So, you know, when I say metro area, let's say like a 50, you know, mile radius We do also have clients that are national though. So I've worked with organizations in California Texas, you know, but again, like I was saying in our green room chat There's just so many nonprofits here in New York City. So they keep us very busy So essentially if you are working as a hiring manager, whether you're a department head or a C-suite executive within an organization You can call a place like staffing boutique. Hopefully call us And you can have us Work on a particular position that you need to fill that for whatever reason You either don't have the bandwidth the time the ability the the outreach to reach, you know The right kind of candidates sometimes people are calling us because they've searched on their own and they're not able to identify exactly what it is that they need And so and kind of all of the above. I've kind of heard every reason under the sun for why they need Somebody needs a staffing firm to help them. But essentially once you're then our client, we're going to work with you one on one. So we're going to have a phone call where we discuss What the job is some of the specs that hiring managers don't necessarily think about. So, for example, like, what are the logistics of the job? You know, what is the salary or the pay rate for the position versus what they're being asked to do? We can help advise clients as to whether they're feasible. We can help tweak the job description. And then we would then start identifying candidates for the organization. And, you know, we facilitate the entire search. So you as the hiring manager get to sit back get an email from us with a list of candidates their resumes and details biographical details. And then you get to pick and choose who you feel like could be a good fit for the job. And then, you know, the interview process is really organization led. So if you want to do, I wouldn't suggest doing this, but if you want to do 10 interviews that is totally your prerogative. We will, of course, help you, you know, help advise clients through that process too, because there's an art to The interview process. You don't want to go too fast. You don't want to go too slow. That's a whole other topic. I'm sure we could tackle later in the years. You know, we should, I would love that because when I talk to people, you know, I get calls a lot of times from people saying, Hey, you're connected. Do you know of anybody looking or, you know, going both directions, going both directions and candidates as well as organizations. Sometimes I can help. Sometimes I can't. But, you know, I am shocked at how hard people have to go through a process. And it's just, it's, I almost want to use the word demoralizing. I'm not saying just take anybody off the street and put them in your team, but it just seems to me like there could be some better strategies for this. And I think this dovetails into what we're going to be talking about today, because volunteers are such a big part of the non-profit ecosystem for good or for bad. I think, you know, it's just one of those kooky things we would never say in a for-profit business, well, heck, let's just get some volunteers in here. We're going to, you know, but I really want to dig down with you today and find out how do we navigate away from volunteers are not free labor, that their real costs associated with having volunteers working with your non-profit. What does that look like when we even begin to think about that? Absolutely. I mean, there's definitely an element of what is the cost benefit of having volunteers. So, for example, if you're an organization that, let's say you're running like a soup kitchen or a food pantry, I think volunteer staff are so crucial that you probably couldn't even run that ecosystem without them. There are other organizations, like if you're a grant making body where you're, you know, disseminating funding where having a volunteer staff is going to be a little bit trickier and there might not be a lot of like return on investment for that. But for an organization that does need volunteers, there are real costs to hiring like, you know, swaths of volunteers for a big project. Someone has to manage them. Someone has to train them. That's a staff member, especially for places like, not to name check anybody, but for example, United Way, there are jobs within an organization of that breadth that are like for a volunteer manager or a volunteer coordinator. So that's an entire salary devoted to somebody that is overseeing volunteers, which says to me that their volunteer staff is that crucial to the work that they do, that they would devote an entire salary position to somebody to oversee them. I think that sometimes within organizations, you can have a lot of bleed through in terms of what job duties each person is covering. And sometimes like the individual giving manager can also be overseeing the volunteers or, you know, the executive director is having to, you know, answer the phone sometimes. And so, you know, when that's the case, I think it can get a little bit stickier as to who is actually overseeing and monitoring the cost effectiveness of having volunteers. I think sometimes organizations can get into a rut of like they're used to using volunteers and nobody's evaluating, hey, how can we streamline this process? How can we make it as cost effective as possible? And that may not mean hiring an entire position to vote, you know, that could be $60,000, $70,000 a year or something. Maybe you don't devote an entire person to that job, but maybe you incorporate it in part of a specific job description that you have and make sure that it's delineated to the right person on your staff so that it's not spread thin between a few different people. And that hopefully would make it a little bit more, the cost benefit would make a little bit more sense. I also think that just, you know, getting the most out of the volunteers. So, you know, I think as a volunteer myself, like when I've gone to events or volunteered for a day, you know, working at a food pantry or something like that. The best part about it to me is feeling like the actually completed a task from start to finish. That is like something that I feel like is really satisfying for everyone involved. And so I think some of that is also as an organization deciding what are the crucial things that we need done. And then hiring appropriate volunteers to do that and how to best use their time because I think if the volunteer shows up and they feel like they kind of sat around and nobody knew what they were needing to do and there was no designated person once they arrived. That to me is where the cost benefit starts going down because you've got people showing up, you know, if it's not organized and they don't feel like they made a difference. And I understand, you know, you don't make a huge difference in a day, but you can make, you know, a task that would otherwise have to be done by a full time staff member. You can take care of that with volunteer staff and that I think is where it can be super helpful. There's also, you know, I'm thinking about those are sort of like the one day things where you volunteered an event or you help pack lunches. There's also sort of like ongoing volunteer work like I've seen on a lot of candidates resumes over the years. Oh, I did data entry for this organization three times a week, you know, for three or four months. And I would say, well, how, you know, how did you get that? And they're, you know, nine times out of 10, it's I knew someone who was working there. So it goes to show you how much a networking, you know, and being having a network is important. But I knew someone who was working in development and, you know, I wanted to learn the software that they use like razor's edge or, you know, whatever that might be. And so I've offered my services. We were able to make it work and in exchange for learning the database, you know, I was working, let's say, a few hours a week, you know, but long term. And so the organization gets obviously, you know, some projects done for free. It's a manageable amount of work. So, you know, we're talking basic data entry, not having them run the entire system, not having them do invoices or anything crazy. But, you know, taking bite-sized pieces out and thinking outside the box about how a volunteer, especially one that has experience or who's committed to or dedicated to the nonprofit sector, how you can utilize them. There's so many students that are getting, you know, between new school and Columbia getting their masters in public administration or masters in public health that an internship of any kind or volunteer position would be super helpful, not only for their resume, but just for their experience, you know, to add onto their resume. And I think there's a quid pro quo for everyone involved there. And so I think some of it is also, you know, not to stack more onto nonprofit professionals' plates, but thinking about how to utilize volunteer staff is something I think it's underutilized. If you're not one of those major nonprofits that already, like God's love we deliver, like they have lots of volunteers, they're used to having volunteers. I think a lot of other organizations could as well. It's just not as obvious what those positions could be. Well, you know, I'm fascinated by the things that you're saying because my next question to you is, based on what you've been saying, it sounds to me like you don't work with enough organizations that actually have a professional volunteer manager, volunteer coordinator, somebody that has, understands the ecosystem of this, the value and what you need to be looking for. It's just an add-on. I mean, do you see this, and I'm going to call it profession, do you see this professional approach to volunteer management in your community? I mean, because to me that seems like it could be a huge missing piece to this whole structure. Yeah, I mean, what I would say is that with the major social services organizations that are very large, siloed and have a lot of funding and are very entrenched in the community, they have very robust volunteer programs. I would say that they are more on the side of sort of those like day-to-day projects, like Habitat for Humanity bringing in people and building for a day or a week. Working at a soup kitchen for the day or working a gala and you're picking coats or checking people in or something like that, that I think a lot of organizations are managing well. But there's a lot of organizations, what I found over the years in New York, there's the major ones you think of that are either national organizations or chaptered organizations that we all know. And then there are a lot of smaller organizations, like small to mid-sized that are working in social justice, women's empowerment, reproductive rights, just to name a few, that it's not as obvious where and how volunteers could fit into the organization. Especially when it's a mission that's very popular, like, you know, that just has a lot of public support behind it. I think the issue wouldn't be necessarily like if they promoted tomorrow, we have volunteer positions. I bet they would get a lot of traction. I think the issue is taking somebody from having the impetus to want to volunteer to actually bringing it to fruition and making sure that it's cost effective for the organization is where the trickiness is. But yeah, I would say there's a lot of organizations that, you know, don't really have a volunteer staff or a database of volunteers that they can go to wouldn't even know necessarily where to find them, or that there are people out there that would be willing to do it. Because there's even people who are currently working full time for whom there might be a volunteer possibility that they could fit into their schedule. So just recapping for everybody. Some of the brilliant things that you said and one of the things that I want to dig deeper a little bit into and that is, you really kind of reoriented my thinking here about the day, a day of action, if you will, right? Like you said, packing food boxes, serving in a, you know, a pantry style or food kitchen, whatever. Talk to me about training and managing volunteers when you just have that one day because I think it's a huge POE point of entry where we forget that we can bring a volunteer in. And I'm not saying asking for money as they're walking out the door, but we can ask for connectivity and build champions for our organizations. And I don't know why we feel like we can't do that. And I'd love to get a little bit of your feedback on that. I mean, I kind of call it training, but it's almost like an orientation, if you will. That you read my mind. That's how I would describe it as well as like a formal orientation. And I think what you said that was so great is that you really will create through your volunteers, champions or ambassadors of your mission out there in the world. So who knows if one of your volunteers is somebody who's connected to another grant making body somehow that you can get funding from or, you know, your next executive assistant is their cousin. And so because they volunteer with you, they're able to introduce you to somebody that is a long-term fit for something that is a crucial part of your staff. So absolutely, I think your volunteers are going to be some of your best conduits for word of mouth about your organization. And for organizations that, you know, the market saturated even within popular types of missions, you can find 10 to 15 organizations that are working on, you know, women's rights or, you know, social justice or racial equality. So how do you decide which organization to support? You know, that sometimes then drills down to what they've heard about different organizations, what information is out there online, how your website appears to viewers and how professional it seems. So all of those things can really matter and having a well-trained, you know, taken care of volunteer staff that when they do come in can be great mouthpieces to then go out and to continue spreading your mission. And I would just say, and it's the same principle when people come into interview is that, you know, people talk. So when I talk to candidates, candidly, they will tell me if, oh, I've heard of that organization. My two friends interviewed there. They never called them back. They never heard anything again. They weren't that nice and they went to interview. And so I'm not interested in that organization. Now that those stories may or may not be 100% true, you know. However, that's the story that's gone out. So you never. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because it has impact. Exactly. And so you're losing good people, you know, for your searches and finding trained, you know, and experienced staff is at a premium right now. You know, because a lot of people have changed industries just all across the board. And so finding people in your particular field with the specific skills that you need in all industries is a little bit tougher right now and candidates really have like the upper hand. And so just coming off of the pandemic and the economy. So with that said, I think it's really important to like that customer service, that white glove service, even if it's, you know, you know, I know hiring managers are so busy. I know that they've got a million things on their plate. But in the long run, I think that the cost benefit of making sure that volunteers, for example, when they come into your organization, they receive a formal orientation. You know, exactly what's being asked of them. They, you know, feel taken care of. They feel welcomed. And so that they have a good experience coming in is only going to help you secure more volunteers. And it's going to help with the marketing of your, you know, in the branding of your organization is like anything to do with my organization is top notch. It's done professionally. And everybody is treated fairly and very well. I think that that can go, you know, miles. It's like when you hear about a like a trend or a show or I think nine times out of 10, it's that you've heard from somebody that it's good is better than like a review and variety or, you know, a commercial. It's really if somebody you trust tells you that something's good. And that I think is the untapped resource and my volunteering can be really lucrative for an organization. I love that you said that because I think you're right. And, you know, it makes me think about that number that we use all the time on the nonprofit show and 1.8 million nonprofits registered in this country. There are a lot more that aren't registered and doing, you know, things legally, but you're right. There's competition out there. And so if you hear something bad or you have a sense that, you know, it's kind of a dopey organization when it comes to their volunteers. It's super easy to go down the block or half a block, right? And because there's somebody else there that will welcome you in and steward you. You know, always when we spend time with you, it's just the time flies by and I always have a million more questions, but I don't want to leave without addressing this. And that is how do you incentivize a volunteer staff? I mean, you know, 1 day, okay, raw, raw, you get a man you never see him again. But how do you get like that data entry person who's coming in a couple of times a week? What do you do to pull them in as part of the team? Sure. I mean, I first of all always advise candidates, especially if they're in between jobs, as I mentioned before, to consider volunteer work because it's a great way to build your resume. It's a great way to build skills that you'll need for your next paid position or that can help secure you your next paid position. And so I think that's how you can really market it to for some of these like longer term opportunities that may or may not, you know, come up or that you can start. You know, you can make the inaugural like ask for a volunteer and and and see if, you know, a hiring manager would allow you to do that. I think that if you offer it up and say, hey, like, can I find a graduate student that's willing to do this? I think the way to market it is saying, hey, you'll get to learn razor's edge, or you'll get to learn this particular software will train you on it and you'll get to use it. And if you need a recommendation letter, you know, outlining, you know, what you've done here. That'll be available to you as well if you complete the volunteer process. And so I think all of those things are so lucrative for a job seeker that that would make it worth it. And obviously, you know, with volunteering, you know, I want to be sensitive to the fact that it is unpaid labor. And so, you know, and I think that people are nervous about that just in this day and age, like about equity. And I think that that is absolutely true because nobody wants to feel taken advantage of and no organization, you know, wants to be accused of taking advantage of people. So I definitely think that it's something that just has to be thought through carefully. And making sure that, again, that there's a quid pro quo, like that the volunteer is coming in, but they are getting something very valuable, whether that's a recommendation experience, you know, experience with a particular skill that you know is lucrative for other jobs that they're looking for, you know, is I think how you would market that. And also just being a smart volunteer to like, I think before you take a volunteer opportunity, you have to think about, okay, I don't just want to work on this particular mission. I mean, that's maybe obviously going to be part of it. But like, what do I want to get out of this volunteer opportunity? What skills do I need to add to my repertoire to get the next job that I want? Which, you know, really is requiring you to think about your career and what the next steps of that career look like so that you can help identify what sorts of things you need. Then you can start going after the organizations that would provide that or provide, you know, if you have always wanted to work for a foundation, maybe the volunteer opportunities should be at a grant making body because that's where you want to gain experience. I think a lot of people just sort of go, oh yeah, I would do that and I would volunteer without thinking through like sort of, especially because there are so many different nonprofits, you kind of do have options. You can shop around. You don't only have to, you know, work at a soup kitchen and that's the only opportunity that there is to fundraise or to volunteer. And also the whole world of events, especially spring and fall for galas, so many organizations are doing events for fundraising purposes, and they need a lot of hands to help make those events a success. So even offering your services, emailing a volunteer coordinator if you do find them on your website or emailing the event manager or, you know, development director during that time and say, hey, like I'd love to work your event. You know, you get to meet people that way. You meet donors that way. You see how an event works from the inside out. If you're looking to get into development, what better way to view it in action. And so that's the benefit that you're getting from it. While the organization of course, you know, you're able to help them run their event and bring in as much money from the silent auction and galas they possibly can. You know, there's an immediate give and take that's helpful for both parties. They're also fun. I would say I have like all the opportunities like events are like some of the funnest things to volunteer with that I've done many times. And I think it's like you said something so interesting, which I hadn't really thought of in the very beginning. You said, there's something to be said for you get in, you get out and you've accomplished something. There's a beginning, a middle and an end. And in the nonprofit space, we don't always have that. You know, we have ongoing issues and problems where sometimes we look down the road and we're like this problem will never be solved. This task will never be achieved. And so I think that's a that was an interesting a home moment for me. We only have a couple seconds left couple minutes. What do you, how do you feel about swag, like t shirts or buttons or hats or water bottles that you give to volunteers or nay, like what's your, what's your sense of that valuable or not. I think that in the moment, those things can be super valuable like it's just fun it's something tactile, and they're certainly useful. I am just personally trying to be more conscious about my carbon footprint. And so I do think we have to consider, you know, do they need a t shirt a bag and a water bottle that might end up in a landfill or in recycling in a week because it was just too many things. So I don't know what the happy medium is. I just want to always flag that for my even just for myself is like, how can we make sure that it's something of value to the people volunteering but also that is reusable and also doesn't make sense, you know, for them to take something that's kind of kind of end up in a landfill. And maybe just speaking to the volunteers ahead of time, like, what sorts of things would, you know, would you guys be interested in? Is it a Starbucks gift card for five bucks? Would you rather have a latte or would you rather have, you know, reusable water bottles or maybe giving them the option like you have a bunch of things on the table and people can pick and choose what they want. You know, because, but I think a lot of time with events, they have overflow from the event. So it's like the volunteers are taking things that were going to be there anyway, which I think is totally fine. I sometimes like when I go to like fundraising day or, you know, women in development meetings or I think there's a lot of swag and I don't always want like tons of things to take home but that's also because I'm going to, you know, many over the course of the year. But I think the ones that stand out to me are ones that are like specifically useful. So like a canvas bag that has like the organization's logo on it. Again, that's pre-advertising too when you send people home with that. Let's paper, you know, let's let's go like flyers and things that'll be tucked into them, but definitely the actual tangible reusable things are going to be like the best and the most green. I love it. Well, Dana, director of recruitment for staffing boutique. You can find more about staffing boutique at staffing boutique.org or reach out directly. You know, Dana, I very rarely put somebody's email address on the slide, but for you, I do because I always feel like go for it. When you're on, we end up getting so many questions and comments. Dana at staffing boutique.org will take you directly to the mastermind, Dana Skirlock. Always a delight to be around you and with you. I'm always amazed at your take on things and, you know, labor and volunteers, paid staff, executive suite, all of that. This is the lifeblood of our organizations. You know, we say no mission, no money, no mission, but the reality is if we don't have these armies of people working with us in all these different ways, we can't, we don't do anything, right? We can't get anywhere. And so it's such an amazing opportunity for us to hear your wisdom and learn about what this world of ours in nonprofit success can look like when we understand how it's all going. Another thing that is all going for us all the time are our amazing sponsors and they support us phenomenally. So, Blue Morang, American nonprofit academy, nonprofit thought leader, staffing boutique, your part time controller, 180 management group, fundraising academy at national university, JMT consulting, nonprofit nerd and nonprofit tech talk. They are our valued, valued partners and part of what makes us successful as we march forward. Done now more than a thousand shows. Dana's been a part of that from the beginning. And so we want to express our gratitude to everyone. Okay, Dana, you've given me a lot of things to think about today and I'm going to really ponder some of these structural issues when it comes to our labor and looking at the volunteer ecosystem. It's been a fascinating discussion. Thank you so much for having me. It's always a pleasure to speak with you. It's been a lot of fun. Hey, everybody, as we end every episode of the nonprofit show, we leave with this message and that is to stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here next time. Thank you, my friend.