 Hello everyone and welcome to Product Schools. Today's event is so exciting. It is a women in tech panel discussion. We'll be chatting with two product management leaders about their experience working in technology. Hopefully they'll share some experiences that they've had, any challenges, and maybe you'll get some tips and advice from them as well. I am today's panel moderator, Karen Longbrake. I'm a Product Management Director at the Walt Disney Company. I'm going to hand it over to Judy to introduce herself. Hi everyone, I'm Judy. I'm a Group Product Manager at SNAP. I lead to add delivery and marketplace team here. Thanks Judy and Christine over to you. Yeah, hi everyone. I'm Christine. I'm actually based in London. I'm currently a Product Manager in Monzo. I've done a few short stints in Asia and I come from like a user research and designer background and that's sort of how I transitioned into product, maybe a little bit unconventional. But that's a little fun fact about me. Great. Thank you, Judy and Christine. And Christine, my product management entry is definitely unconventional as well. So I entered into product management by way of business analysis, which I know is pretty popular as well. So I've been in tech for a little while, but just recently in product management. All right, before we get started, just a few housekeeping items. Just remember this is a panel so the panelists views are their own and don't necessarily represent the company. Also, if you have any questions or comments, please post those in the chat and we'll try to get to them as time allows. I am going to kick off today's panel with what may seem like a very obvious question. Why is it important to encourage women to pursue careers in technology? And I'll leave it open to either Christine or Judy to answer first. Yeah, I can take a stab first. So, as we all know, the tech industry itself is a growing sector and it will be a matter of fact. I think it was like sixth biggest industry back in like 2021 data. But I think it's a matter of fact that it will even climb up in the rank by the time goes. And, you know, like all the innovation is happening in this like sector too. And I think like it is like really important for women and like who will be considered as like minorities to have the seat at the table. So that it can actually we can influence like the future that we were building and will be together so that that can be, you know, like that can be handed over to like the the generations like below us as well. So I think like because like we're in this like crucial point of like having a leap in this like whole like AI technology and its application as well. It will be really great to have like our voice heard where we are actually at this point of like setting what the future will look like and the strategies that will be built accordingly. Judy. Christine. Yeah. Yeah, I am. I agree with everything that Judy said. Yes, for me, I think the importance of having a diverse workforce is it effectively is a catalyst for innovation. I think in tech, especially wearing the head of a product manager, we're often sort of confronted with complex problems. And having like a diverse group in a way would allow us to be more comprehensive and creative when we're problem solving. And so I think that's probably one of the key reasons why I would say it's important. Secondly, I also think it continues to nurture like a growing community. And so that like future generations like Judy has mentioned can continue to be inspired and feel supported within like a community of female leaders. I love that and I think, you know, we are following leaders that that blaze the path for us. So I think it's important for us to carry that torch as well. I also truly believe that, and I think, Judy, you mentioned this as well, that we need to reflect our our customers are our guests in my in my situation. You know, if we can better reflect kind of the user base of our products, whatever our product is, I think we can be more creative and really be able to innovate better for sure. So thank you for sharing those wonderful thoughts. We're getting some great questions in the chat already. I'm going to hold on going to those for a moment. Just we have a few prepared questions that I'll that I'll walk through. And I think I'll bounce this one over to Judy again, as a product manager, how do you feel is the best way to influence without authority. Yeah, so this like has been, I don't know, like the motto that like I'm sharing with like my team, as well as like my colleagues to because like, especially a product manager, you don't have to be a people manager to have like influence like in like setting up like a developing new products or setting up like roadmap or strategy. So I think it's like really important that you become the face of the the area that that you own and drive. And I think the, the, the number one way to do it is to build trust and instill the trust like with your working group. So you like people can trust you that only like Judy is an expert in this like this area of XYZ. So that I think that's a reflection of that. Okay, like I can actually drive the future of this area without authority. And I think that's like being built like with like the, the, all the knowledge that you're putting together, and then, you know, like actually driving the great relationships like across the all the cross functional teams that you're driving. But I think like at the end of the day that you have to have the, the ownership mindset as well, that okay, like any kind of like problems or escalations or inbound or outbound requests that are being made that I should know like ins and outs. And of course, no one is perfect and there can be some gaps like here and there, then just like, you know, admit it that oh, like I wasn't aware of this but let's get bottom to this and then bottom of this and then what are the problems that we're seeing. And just like don't afraid to ask questions like even like in those cases, and then just like focus on the fact that okay, like, I'm the owner, and I have to like, you know, like fill in the knowledge gap that I might have. But I think eventually that will set like the path like for for like to be a healthier relationship with a group that you're working with. I love that when you said I'm the owner but I don't have to know it all right. And it's almost better if you don't right if you come in to a role or to a project inquisitive asking questions trying to learn from the people who may be the experts as well. Christine, I don't know if you have any other thoughts on influencing without authority. No, I think Judy covered very similar points that I had in mind as well I think having and building strong relationships that are based off trust is very, very important and key. I think it also goes both ways in the sense that when I sort of work with my team and work with my leadership team. I try to sort of lead an act by example in like it how I want to be treated is like the same way that I would treat others. And so just also empowering other people to feel like I trust them. And like, we're, we're in this journey together, I think that helps with less like influencing but maybe like inspiring collaborating together on like a mission and vision that ideally you share because you're in the same team and in the same company. But yeah, a lot of that is rooted in having strong trust and relationship. I love that idea of the trust and the relationship and that really being the foundation of product management and building a great product. Right. You know, seeing some really cool things in the chat as well communicating with empathy. I agree that's incredibly important and trying to embody that end user that that product user so thank you so much for those wonderful thoughts. I'm going to shift gears for a moment. You know, we're, we're out of the pandemic. And, but a lot of us kind of had a shift in our working environment during that time, and either went into a completely remote work situation or, you know, now work on as part of a distributed team. And so I would love to hear a little bit about some of the challenges that you've encountered as part of a maybe a distributed team or working remotely. And then also just on the counter side of that. How has that been a really good opportunity for you as a as a product manager or just as a leader in general. I'll open up to either one. Oh, Christine. I'm happy to go through this one first. And so for me, I think there are two challenges that I personally experienced but I kind of see the other end of it like I could flip the coin around and sort of see the benefit that having having the situation of being in that situation has brought up. I'll share a little bit around that the first thing for me is definitely work life balance. I think it's harder working remotely to establish clear boundaries when you're working from home, even like physical boundaries. So I think one of us not do not have the luxury of having you know gigantic homes or huge separators so I'm mentally and physically actually setting that boundary becomes more challenging. Whereas in the past you could just leave the house and go to the office. And so I struggled with that quite a bit in the beginning, especially I live in London we have like relatively smaller flats. And so what I do try to do is still try to carve out a space in the living room which is like far away as far as I can from the bedroom. And I sort of just put the mental model that when I'm here that I'm working but if I'm not in this corner of the living room. I'm not. And I sort of be quite strict with myself on that. And something else I think I started to do more of is also to book in classes like workout classes yoga classes. At times you regularly would, if you were working in the office let's say appointments at six. I think that gives you a bit of like a forcing factor to really get off the seat. Because otherwise I feel like sometimes I could just run into the night without even realizing. So that's definitely a challenge but if you flip it around I think we can see this as a good thing as well because now working from home we get more flexibility to manage our own time and perhaps maybe stagger things in our day today in ways that pre pandemic when we work in the office we couldn't. So yeah I think there's like, plus and minuses on both. And then the other thing I think that I was struggling with and I still am is visibility. So I think, I think remotely it's a lot harder to feel like you're gaining recognition and getting visibility from the company or from your team. I tend to struggle with this because I don't, I don't think I shout about things as much on Slack or online and when things are completed or their accomplishments. So I'm trying to be more proactive about that, but something else myself and I got the team to start trialling out as well is to actually make time at the end of projects, especially big ones to ask for feedback. So that at the end of it, you can make sure you're still getting feedback from peer stakeholders leadership as a way to help you grow but also to like gain visibility through that way as well. And so yeah, again you can get some things out of that, but obviously there's also the challenge. I love that a personal after action review. Yeah, I agree with like the two points that Christina mentioned, but I think I have like two other challenges that I've like noticed. The first one is, I think regarding a lot of companies like now mandate like return to office like for X amount of days. And with that, I have like, you know, a flexible work from home option. But like sometimes, you know, like, I feel like if I dial in and not physically be in the room while like some of the folks like who are in the office are in like the same meeting room for us, especially like high stake meetings or discussions. Then even though like I raised my hand like virtually to wave in the queue to speak up. It's just like, it's very natural that like people like physically like who are in the room actually, you know, like jumps in and like takes over the queue. So it's just like really hard to, you know, like, just like make the make like visibility, and then like speak up and also you know, like bring in the ideas like at the same level as like people like who are there altogether. So I'm trying to, you know, like I actually am fortunate to have like also like the other option where if I like want to go into the office like it's not too far away and I can make that trip. So like, you know, I'm prioritizing like the really important meetings where it would benefit like me and my team where I would have a physical like attendance and representation. And like for those days I try to like go in so that I can physically like attend versus, you know, like the other meetings where I can join remotely I try to categorize them differently. But it requires like, you know, a lot of balancing there too, because like we all have that work and live balance like struggles like in this like in this stage as well. And my second, like challenge will be, you know, going back to like building trust like instilling trust and building relationship with your cross functional teams. It's really hard like when the teams are all distributed. And then, like when we just like, you know, like go into a meeting we have like a very small talk for a minute or two about whether or you know like our weekends very briefly but we don't have that hallway and we used to have like when everyone was working in the office and, you know, you actually get to know that person like better very naturally by like having breaks together or having lunch together, you know, without like meeting rooms. But that's not happening so it's not a perfect solution. But like, you know, some of our teams are trying to have like monthly social and block our calendars for 30 minutes and an hour and then not talk about work period. And then we can actually talk about like other stuff and that has been very refreshing. And then, you know, like you get to learn a lot of the other aspects of like the coworkers that you're seeing every day. So that have been, it's like having like a much better, you know, like bonding experience that not having it. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm seeing a lot of really great suggestions in the chat as well. You know, lessons learn doing demos at the end of a project to really keep people engaged. And then also, you know, for your coworkers and making sure that you're you have that presence, having a remote presence is something or a virtual presence is something that is connected as well. Have check ins. I know at the beginning of the pandemic we had kind of virtual happy hours that we would do as a team. And I find that I do that now not in larger groups but in much smaller groups just kind of check ins with people with groups of folks to see how everyone's doing to make sure that we do keep that personal connection going and that social aspect and not just concentrate on work all of the time so I'm going to have one more question and then I'm going to go over to the chat. So I really think that, you know, being a woman in tech sometimes you do feel like you're the only one. And I've been in several rooms where I am the only woman. And, you know, it happens quite constantly that I don't even necessarily recognize that anymore but I think being in that situation it's important to have a mentor or a supporter someone that understands the position that you're in. So Judy and Christine, do you have a mentor or a supporter someone that is on your side and maybe when you're in situations that are uncomfortable or where you don't really know how to move forward that maybe can help you in that situation. I can take this one. I think I learned through my experience that as like Karen mentioned that like because you know oftentimes like we're the the only woman in many meetings and then like we don't have like proper representation or you know like voice like when there is a huge like decision to make. I quickly learned. Okay, it's like really especially if you work like in a pretty sizable company. It's really important to find a right mentor and supporter so that like you can actually you know like bringing the questions that you might have. Like in terms of like career development advancement or if you're stuck in a situation and who someone like who can actually provide some insights like with their seasoned experience. So I like had a pretty like fortunate experience and my previous company where you know like my skip manager. It's like really important to have like some like one on one moments like even with your skip manager. So that's why I like I try to like build relationship with my skip and how I actually approached approach and build this relationship was that. If you have like some you know like ideas or discussion topics about work like it's like an easy way to start the conversation and then have that discussion and then you know like mix it with like some kind of like personal like questions as well like in terms of career. And then like while having that question just like suggest like if we can do a recurring meeting like this but not like too aggressive where it's like you know asking for weekly meetings but maybe like monthly or every other month so that you can have it in calendar. So then you know you don't have to make an extra effort to maintain that relationship like consciously but like because you have it in your calendar as well as his or hers that it's going to be you know like sustained in that way. And then but it's really important that you actually think through what are the questions or topics that you want to discuss with this person so so that that like the other big mentor or supporter will find this time valuable and and like very rewarding as well. So I tried that approach. I found a really great mentor in my previous company and because like she was also women who used to be in a similar situation. She really provided a lot of like meaningful and valuable guidance like some of the very tricky situations that I actually ended up being in and she was like able to understand what where I was coming from and what I'm trying to achieve and I'm like still like keeping like a really great relationship with her. So I think like that was a that was a great example and I I actually did the same like took the same model to my current company and then like started to find my mentor and supporter and have like a recurring meeting with with my my I think like mentor slash supporter right now. That's really great. Yeah and I think my my experience my journey of finding a supporter slash mentor is also very similar to what you mentioned Judy and also the ways of maintaining the relationship is also very very similar. So I think I first started off with identifying individuals within the company whose experiences and insights I admired either it was the way they present themselves or it was like a maybe a skill set that they had or it was a way that they thought about problems or the way they break down things. I just like identify these people that I really wish to learn from and then try to see if there's like a natural and casual way of sort of getting to know them and sometimes it could also just be like I think in one instance I hadn't even joined my current company yet and she was actually starting in the same day as me and we were onboarding buddies and we're joining the same team and so I think tying back to what Judy mentioned about having very being in very similar situations and maybe coming from very similar backgrounds you you just tend to be like easily connect and yeah I think that to me was how I started building this like close circle of supporters. I know I'm very blessed to have and then I think keeping the relationship going I also have regular meetings put in the calendar. Sometimes if one of us are busy we'll just cancel it but it's just good knowing that it's there and sometimes it's something that we look forward to so I definitely not shy away from putting in regular meetings. Of course like first build the relationship first but yeah as soon as like there's a little bit of foundation I'd say put that in and then the worst cases you could delete it. I personally have fortnightlies with the two or three close supporters of mentors that I have. So yeah I think sometimes you're just looking for advice sometimes you're even looking for constructive feedback. Or just simply someone you want to lift you up so it could be used for several reasons at least I have been using that and I try to do both ways as well. And so yeah sometimes maybe they need a little bit of a lift. So yeah it's definitely a two way stream. I'm glad you mentioned that Christine because I think it is important to not only seek mentorship but to also become a mentor to other people, whether it's women in tech within your company outside of your company. I know I'm seeing in the chat you know what what happens if I truly am the only woman in tech in the entire company. My advice reach externally I mean you have all of these great resources within product school on LinkedIn. You know we're certainly all there to support you because I think you know even if we don't know who we want you to be successful. And so you know I think there are definitely avenues to find mentorship outside of your current company if you can't find any within. I love this talk. And can I add one more thing. Yeah I totally agree with you Karen on you know like find mentors like outside of your group because you know like it's really it's not easy to find like women mentor like within the company I admit that especially if you're in the tech industry. But in terms of supporter there is a great article I think I'm blinking where I saw it but the difference like between the supporter and mentor and that has been very helpful so like supporter is someone who can like actually have like influence like direct influence in your career growth. So I think like on that end like it's important to like build like that relationship with your like leader directly or your skip manager. And like for that case like I don't think it has to be a woman or it has to be someone like who has the same background or experience. But it must be someone like who can actually help grow your career. So that's a distinguishment and then I think like mentorship or finding mentor. It can definitely you know like happen outside of like your own company or your like core group where you can actually get advice on something that's not like directly related to your own company or own team. If that makes sense. Absolutely. Yeah thanks for that distinction I think that's really important. Okay I'm going to shift gears again and take a question from the chat. So this question is how do you ensure that works work gets done on time by your team members and is also good quality so you know we've got to meet meet two of two sides of the triangle the quality and and the time part of it. I know those are hard things to balance you know hopefully you have unlimited money so you don't have to worry about that but any advice that you have on on that note. I maybe this is with remote workers to right like how do how are you measuring the quality of their work. Sorry Judy go ahead. The measuring part it's I think it's definitely harder with like remote work setting but between like how like which like you know want to prioritize like between like speed versus quality. It's like you know like a continuous like problem for every product development but I think like it's it's different from product to product so I think like you have to have a really clear understanding of like what the goal is and what are the key measures. That you're trying to move. So for example I'm working on like monetization products and like like because I work at a probably company sometimes like we have like some business goals that we want to achieve like within a quarter. And if it's like time crunched and sometimes you know like I have to prioritize like urgency and then like probably reduce like scope like to you know like very minimal viable product. And then you know like categorize like what can be a fast follow or what can be you know like the the the later version that we can add like after we ship like MVP. Versus like if it's a really foundational product that I'm building that takes like multiple quarters then quality might be more important factor than like you know us like delivering product like few weeks early or a few months earlier. So I think it depends on the scope of the work as well as like the the the metrics that we're trying to hit and the objectives of each initiative. Yeah I am if I if I jump in a little bit on here so I completely agree with everything that Julie said which was starting along. I guess maybe it's a question back to the floor in the sense that I'm curious to know where the timeline has perhaps come from. Is this maybe like like a timeline that you had originally proposed and then now is running behind of or is it one that's been imposing you because I think that also would change the approach a little bit on whether it's something you can do to cut scope. Or the or whether it is actually maybe doing like better estimations or adding multipliers to the estimations afterwards once you know the team a little bit better and figured out like what those co efficiencies are. So I think also getting to the problem of why it's some why we're running behind or running short on time could also help. Absolutely knowing those variables. We're sure. Okay I think we have one other question that now I'm looking for in the chat. All right. Oh yes and Michelle brought up the rice method along with business needs and compliance so so I think one of the questions was how do you how do you prioritize work across you know a bunch of different stakeholders that maybe do not agree. There it is. Thank you so much. I know I have a comment on this one so this happens quite consistently with with my work because and I don't think it's necessarily disagreement I think it's more of competing priorities right are we trying to drive drive revenue. Are we looking to enhance maybe a guest experience or or a cast experience. Disney I got to use my my terms here. And I think I think sometimes we just have different different perspectives and we've we've found that creating a matrix to prioritize work across multiple different realms really helps out a lot. So once again you know is this going to drive revenue is this going to make it process more efficient. Is this going to increase customer satisfaction. And I think those are kind of the three main pillars that that we look at to and then you kind of can weigh each one of those because I think you know in some areas customer satisfaction may be more important or in some other areas driving revenue is more important. And so I think if you look at it kind of in a technical way. I mean I love spreadsheets and any opportunity I can I can take to use a spreadsheet to kind of back up my my thoughts and and you know the way that I go about work is is always helpful. So that's that's kind of how we do it. And then of course you know I think there's there's discussion that needs to happen with the right parties you know making sure that you have the right individuals in the room talking about it. Wayne pros and cons of moving forward with certain features or certain initiatives. Judy and Christine I don't know if you have any closing thoughts on that one. Yeah. So I think I agree that it would come down to actually like prioritization exercise. And then if you have like your own thoughts like that doesn't necessarily align with other groups. I will actually bring up that question. So like you know let's say that if we have done like OK our planning and if we have like said like like K.R. is that we want to hit. And if like the new added like request is not like a line with with like our K.R. path then I'll bring it up to the table OK like this is like you know what we're we're going to drop like if we add this work. So do we all agree that this is the right decision to make. Like here are my thoughts like this is like how I think but just like be open minded and get like you know like other people's like feedback why like the other people think like this work like should be prioritized like over the others. And I think like usually if you have that kind of conversation then you get to understand where the other parties are coming from and then be able to adjust like your own like prioritization list as well. Yeah I think I second everything that was mentioned as well. I think this ties a little bit back to the original question or one of the earlier questions and we're talking about how to influence make decisions without authority and I think it comes down to effective collaboration which usually would just mean you have to share your thoughts and a very well articulated way and have a strong reason to believe why this thing should be prioritized or why this should be true. And I definitely do the same as what Judy does like have a anchor which to me usually is the KR or the KPI and make it really clear that like this is why I don't think it is or this is a trade off like I don't think it fits into this strategy or this value tree. And this is a trade off like I will be taking this which I think is a more impactful thing off the plate to prioritize this and just like making that clear and understandable for others but also trying like be an active listener of why they might be pushing it and what agenda they might be driving and maybe it's something that a collective or like sorry not collective. I'm using company terms a company level. So yeah I think it's being able to listen but also being able to articulate your points well as well. That's wonderful. And I know I could probably continue to moderate this panel for the next hour but we have run out of time. Christine Judy thank you so much for all of the wonderful thoughts and experiences that you've shared with us. Today. Thank you to all of the participants and all the great comments and questions that we've received as well. I hope everyone has a great weekend and thanks for joining. Thank you everyone. Thank you.