 John, can you tell me a little bit more about your organization and what you're doing? Yes. The name of our organization is Disaster Central. And we're, our mission statement largely centers around mitigating loss of life and property around disasters. We've a couple of initiatives going on. They will wanna, been largely concentrating in the states. We wanna expand worldwide with our mission. We've got a theory of change. We have a mission statement and, and like I said, we just wanna disciple that better. And it sounds like a dow is one way to, to go about doing that power, power way in mind. Great, John, why don't you start queuing up the framing questions or questions? And we will, we're gonna focus on you and your questions and if anyone joins, we're gonna welcome them and let you keep going until it feels like time to share the mic. Oh, fantastic. I feel super privileged and lucky, at least for the time being. The first question has to do, we have an idea for a Dow. And we were wondering what top level domain extension TLV should be used? Is it for that? Is it .xyz? And should the letters DAO be included along with the nonprofit? Name itself? That is probably a good question for your branding team. So that will have a lot to do with marketing and who you want to be speaking to. When you say you're thinking about forming a Dow around your nonprofit, do you wanna just give us a little bit more context about what your thoughts are there and what you could accomplish? After some amount of study, we understand a lot of these groups start out on discourse. And we have, again, our theory of change and we wanna advocate for a particular program called Dare to Compare. Some of the issues we're looking at has to do with people with access and functional needs are facing what are known as emergency response failures. And so we're looking at some ways we can improve the experience for people with access and functional needs before, during and after disasters. And so that's one of the programs we're looking at if that makes any sense. And it's in accordance with our theory of change. And shout out if you have any questions on that. Yeah, Anna's a great resource here too. So I don't wanna speak for both of us. I think my first question would be like what can be accomplished with a DAO that couldn't be accomplished with a regular organization? Because one of the things that we talked about last week is the fact that these are really interesting ways of forming a group of people around like different kinds of governance. And maybe it's that you want it to be really, like really egalitarian without anybody in charge. But because you don't have some sort of structure, it can get very disorganized and very noisy with everyone wanting a say on all of the things all at the time. And that can lead to some of its own problems later down the road. So it really depends on what would this afford us that we wouldn't have in a different formation structure? Okay, I'll address that then. So basically, I guess we could look it out as starting out with some ideas with initial proposals. Whether we're doing that over discourse or not. We have some definitive ideas that we could put out as an initial proposal to be the mission or a purpose of the DAO. We get it in a, there's this sort of pure democracy. Maybe that's part of sort of bringing out the ideas and bringing some level of moderation there. But we want to incorporate some of the tools that other DAOs possess, you know, meaning we want to bring in proof of humanity element to it because right now there's a lot of undocumented children showing up at the border, Southern border of the US that have special needs and they have no assessments. And one way we're looking, one of the things we're looking at is getting assessments done or get a program developed so they can be assessed as to what their functional needs are or their disability is. And that seems to be a big issue now. That is and it's an important one. And one that probably requires a fair amount of privacy when you're dealing with those assessments, probably I don't know that much about special needs or education, but maybe there's some depending on what the diagnosis is, there could be some HIPAA laws to think about and you've got people coming from other countries. So that I think would probably be best served in more of an organizational structure because you just need to make sure that you are serving those people's privacy before anything else would be my take on it. And what do you think? Yeah, I would, I think I agree with Shannon where the most important thing before looking at the tools and what you're gonna bring in to make it function is why do you have it in the first place? And when I think about disaster recovery and that kind of thing, if you converted your organization into a DAO, it might be a little bit more agile where different groups of people can spin up different recovery efforts on their own and bring different people towards it or raise money really quickly because you're operating in cryptocurrency, that sort of thing. So I would just be really clear on what it is that you're hoping to achieve with it and how this structure will help you achieve that better before really looking at the tools and that kind of thing. And I would agree, I think proof of humanity is a great starting point for identity. I probably not gonna give you the functionality that you would need for identity management at a traditional border in today's structure like down the road, probably like we're just in the very early phases decentralized ID. And so I would look at with the IDs that they have today, are they carrying passports? Are they carrying traditional government IDs? And are those IDs a barrier to gaining access or getting treatment or having analyses done on their special needs or do they work pretty okay with what they have? And so I think this would be the two key things is really just looking at what's the big overarching goal and does the structure of a DAO support that or hinder it? Yes, and one of the issues they're showing up unaccompanied often and in the likelihood of them having any documentation whatsoever is pretty slight. But narrowing in on the theory of change here would be along the lines of at least get them assessed for special needs. And that way, authorities have some level of situational awareness. And so that's the thinking on the approach. And as far as proof of humanity, I know it seems to be an early stage effort. And we're after somebody's, for lack of a better word, I don't know if we're using the proper terms but the layer two capabilities where there's a fundraising side of it and then there's proof of the humanity side of it. There's some existing DAOs out there that concentrate on climate activities, climate issues and that have some history. And we don't know if we should go with the proposal to some of the existing DAOs because it really does address a broader issue when it has to do with climate refugees. And whether we characterize that theory of change with our own theory of change or we collaborate, for lack of a better word, with another DAO or present a proposal to another DAO. That's more established. Yeah, and it's all really good thinking, John. And I would probably personally really lean on some of the stuff that we talked about last week in terms of the fact that what Ann said about decentralized identity being really new still and it's been untested. You're talking about some people who are still pretty vulnerable, probably best to err on the side of caution before you start testing out these apps on people who don't have resilience and keeping it traditional systems that we know for now so that you and I can do some more of the testing around the decentralized identity and we can kick the tires because we still have driver's licenses and social security numbers and things to fall back on. So probably for now, best to err on the side of tried and tested before we start exposing people to these new systems, that makes sense. Here, could you take the approach of sort of a work approach with maybe subcategories of dealing with these issues? How would you suggest? Would you have any suggestions along those lines as to throttling back on the end in mind but bringing awareness to these sorts of issues? Yeah, I would say that like the key difference really between a DAO and a flat organization that has different work groups that work together is really just power, like where does the power sit? And so in a situation where you have work groups, maybe they're doing the work but there's one person that manages the bank account or one person that are a group of people on what's happening or has, yeah, maybe they've managed the voting software that these groups work on and there's a possibility of hacking. It's the work groups work in a situation where you trust each other really well. So if we're all working, let's say everyone in the Zoom call decide we wanna work together to help people who don't have identity. If we all trust each other to work together and we trust that Shannon is gonna manage the bank account and we're okay with that, that's really good enough. We can achieve all of our goals with that but if I don't know, I'm like, hey, I can't see Caitlin's face, I don't know where she is, I don't trust her so I don't know if she should be managing the bank account then maybe we wanna create a DAO where we can all have transparent voting and transparent money management systems because it's using cryptocurrency. And so I think I would look at it less about the overall structure because you can have these kind of flat structures anyway but really look at do you need the power structures that a DAO will bring to help eliminate corruption and mistrust within the way you're operating? But I think that's probably the key takeaways of the differences between a traditional work group model. I don't know if you have thoughts or anything to add on that, Shannon. No, that was great. Cool, I'm sorry. Continue, we're gonna shine in. No, it's good. And maybe we just put a pin in that question for just a second and just check it and see if people have other pressing questions. I can't remember. I think maybe Beverly joined next. Billy, do you have track? Yes, Beverly's next. Thanks. Hi, Beverly. Did you come today with a question or are you just chatting and listening in? You're muted, dear. Okay, great. Thanks, majority. And totally don't need to run the floor here. I don't know if any of our other members have pressing questions. I don't know if you just wanna go ahead and raise hands when you do or put them in the chat or we can just continue to round around and some of the issues that John is so timely bringing the call. And if you're curious about like how blockchain could apply to your organization, we can just hear about what your organization is up to and maybe come up with some ideas for you of projects you could look at to lots of opportunities to chat. I know Nick, CivicQ, that was the blockchain-based voting app from last week, wasn't it? Or something similar? Nick, I don't know if you wanna tell us a bit more about what you're working on. Hey, yeah, sure, yes. I was in one of the meetings last week or just a couple of days ago. Yes, we recently joined TechSoup. We're pretty new here. What we're doing here in Taiwan is CivicQ is building a civic media platform as a decentralized autonomous organization owned and managed by all users. Now, we do this through three missions. First is we are forging digital democracy with blockchain technology. Okay, that goes without saying. But what we did with this is we have a separate KYC mechanism, more traditional KYC. Basically, we work with traditional banking system and traditional existing telecom service providers to KYC people. Now, second is we're defending data ethics with revenue sharing. This is essentially similar to filling out surveys and get pay or watching ads and get pay. Instead of the small tokens that you get pay with, we can pay with fiat currency. And then the percentage of that is much, much higher compared to the typical filling out surveys, the stuff. Okay. And the third one is we promote critical thinking with game of learning. So what we're doing here is we essentially treating voting and quizzes are the same thing. They are all multiple choices except that quizzes don't have correct answers. Whereas, both teams don't have correct answers, but there are still multiple choices. So essentially what we're doing is we highly encourage people to label themselves with data, tag themselves. Some of the questions, some of the questions they will be analyzed on the questions. Some of them and some of them will be analyzed on the answer choices. And for those that there will be answer on the answer choices on, they will be notified, they will be because there's privacy concern, but we are as they are getting paid for the data that they are giving out. So we think this makes the whole social media operation a little more fair compared to what is going on right now. That's essentially the nutshell of what we're doing. Very cool, thank you. Yeah, and again, having to talk to anybody that's here or we can just continue to bounce ideas around. If our day or Caitlin or anybody else, if you guys have questions, feel free to pop them in the chat or otherwise stick your hand up. Like we were talking with John earlier about sensitive questions when there are kids doing border crossings, when some of them have specific needs. We were talking about decentralized identity and how that can be used among different organizations. It is still a little bit of a tricky thing to accomplish right now when none of this has been tested. John, I don't know, did you have other questions around that? Yes, I did. And this more has to do with, I guess, promotion of the DAO. Has there been a case DAOs have been promoted using web 2.0 technologies like Google ads or anything of that nature? And this essentially means showing up and searching your results for certain favorable keywords, that sort of thing. Has that ever been deployed as a... One of the things to think about informing a DAO is that it's not often that you'll see people taking out Google ads specifically because thinking about like Dumbars number, are you familiar with the kind of thinking around that we can only know so many people and that once we pass a certain size threshold, we lose a lot of social coherence and cohesion. We don't necessarily want 70,000 people in one of our DAOs because now it's so noisy. How do you decide who's voting on what? How do you self-select? Do you have relationship with other people in the organization? So at some point, it's better to have a Twitter following where everyone's following what you're doing and there's a group of people actually doing the actions rather than trying to have tens of thousands of people actively contributing as well. At some point, it just gets too much to manage. I'm sure there are people that have done all sorts of advertising around this kind of thing, but in my experience, less isn't always, like more doesn't always accomplish what you want. Twitter has been a very big part of this because we're still very tech centric. That's where things like the Constitution DAO that we talked about last week, that's where they got a lot of their momentum. If you're fundraising, Ukraine DAO did a lot of advertising to grab more, they did with all based on donation, and then a small group of people figured out how to deploy those funds. Though in those specific cases, it can be better to have more people involved, but depending on what your goals are, if it has to do with governance of the organization, you're actually going to run into a number where it's harming you to have more and more voices in the room, and Anne probably has great thoughts on this too. Yeah, I would also add it's also about what type of person that you're hoping to bring into the DAO. So traditionally, DAO is because they're very tech heavy or you at least need to know how to use cryptocurrency to be able to vote and to be able to participate that a Web2 crowd was not who they were trying to attract. It was really people from the Web3 space. As Shannon mentioned, a lot of the word would get spread on Twitter or they would give presentations at crypto conferences and that kind of thing. So it was really what is the type of person that you're hoping to bring into the DAO and then where are you going to find those people? And I think if you're looking for a Web2 crowd, you could do Google ads, but then is that person going to have the technical knowledge to be able to actually operate within the DAO and perform the functions they need to perform using Web3 technologies? If I may, I'd like to segue a little bit into the tokenization aspect. And I know there's generally two types of tokens, a governor's token and a fundraising token. And I'm not exactly clear how that all interplays when it comes to having an NFT and where the fundraising effort starts or ends or whether you're, let's say paying your facilitators or moderators or workers, I don't know if I'm not used to right terms or not, but how does, when you decide on a tokenization side of things, and I realize that's way into the future for us, but just so I can get a basic understanding of a typical tokenization scenario and as it relates to a nonprofit cause or at least cause with a theory of change. And this gets tricky quite quickly, especially in the U.S. in terms of how you even talk about having a token involved. There's a lot of regulatory frameworks that you have to be cautious of here. Just as with any kind of club, you could think of Dao as a new kind of a club, there's a billion different ways to structure them in terms of do you want to have one person, one vote? Do you want to have people that have earned more reputation and then they have more leadership voice? Do you want it to be something that they can just buy into like monetarily? Like maybe if it's an investment Dao, the more that I contribute, the louder my voice becomes. Do you want to keep it egalitarian? Do you want to find ways where it's that that sweat equity can earn your way into more of a voice? Do you have a leadership council? There's ways to do delegate voting so that I'm a member of a Dao, but I don't have to vote on all of the things because I delegated my votes to Ann because I trust her in a lot of ways. I wish I could give you an easy answer on this, but it really does have like, there's so many different shades of the rainbow about how you put this together. Ann, do you know of any sort of nonprofit token model? I'm just trying to think most, if you look at some of the most functional Daos like Bitcoin, for example, they have a GTC token that essentially they airdropped to all of their previous users. So they started as a company and so they gave anyone who had participated with the organization an airdrop of GTC tokens and those tokens enable you to vote on different proposals. And so I can go and exchange Bitcoin for GTC tokens and then get more of a vote on every proposal, essentially, if I want to. And so their token, in essence, it is a governance token because it allows you to vote with it, but it also has a monetary value. That value goes up and down depending on market demand for that token. What are the activities of the organization of the DAO? Whether people believe it's good and it's going forward in a meaningful way. So it's also, in that sense, the fundraising token where if they did the Bitcoin DAO holds a whole bunch of GTC tokens and if the value of those goes up, they can convert that and pay salaries and do all these sorts of things with a different value wherever the GTC token is. So they, in that sense, have one token that operates both as a governance and as a sort of funding token. But as Shannon mentioned, like if you wanted to have a DAO where instead of being able to buy more votes, it's just a one person, one vote, then perhaps you would have one token when you prove your identity. So you would maybe connect that to say your proof of humanity identity and that would allow you to vote, but maybe the DAO would have a different token that they use to raise funds or whatever. So from that standpoint, yeah, as Shannon says, it's really, you can structure it any way that you want to and have rules any way that you want to, the same way if you had a club or a community in the regular world, you could say, we're gonna have only a hundred people and no more or we're gonna have a million people and we're going to run our meetings like this and we're going to do our dues like this and our votes like this. It's all kind of the same decisions you would make in a non-blockchain group of people trying to achieve a goal but using blockchain mechanisms, that helps. Sure, I think of NFT, I think of non-fungible, which to me is another word for a non-exchangeable token. If, so does an NFT become an exchangeable token once it's on an exchange? What's the dynamics of that? How does that play? Yeah, your thinking is right and that non-fungible means that those two things aren't the same, that a US dollar is the same as any other US dollar. We all think of it as having the same value but once an NFT is on an exchange, it is still just that specific one. It's not equal to any of the others. Can I sell my NFT and then buy a different one? I can, but they doesn't mean that they are equal to each other. It totally depends on the value of each one individually and thank you extra, Maia, for the resource that you put in the chat. That's a really good one, John. There's a resource in there that's an article about DAO tokenization. Thank you. I saw extra math also posted something about the Rohingya project. Do you wanna hop on your mic and maybe tell everybody a bit more about that? Yeah, hi everybody, my name's Roy. Sorry, my Zoom handles off today, but just came in a little late and unfortunately I have to dip a little early but it's a great conversation and I just wanted to hop in because I'm very interested in this technology. I was involved in some DAOs last year and it's just an amazing new organizational form and thinking now about how to apply it to my day job at Extra Math, which is a not-for-profit that makes software used by kids to practice math. It's very simple, it's very small, very niche, but it's something that we know lots of, we have millions of students and parents and teachers who use it every month and we don't nearly, I haven't found a way to really capture the value of that community and think about other ways to serve it and help serve itself because we can't do everything. That's a context that I'm thinking about now is how might we apply this at a broader scale. Open source development is an original distributed decentralized organization. So we're thinking obviously about ways to tap into that, but other ways just of round delivering our program as well. That's really cool and given that it's mathematics, means that it can be a global audience that you're speaking to, which is interesting. That's what all this crypto is at the end of the day, it's just math, right? If I have developed a feeling that math is in that case not value-neutral, it's something that gives people freedom and agency and is really an essential for modern life. It's one of the UN sustainable development goals. It's broadly popular. It's just something that, if you look at say the US education system, not something that's very well organized, it's very fragmented, it's not very organized, yet it's highly centralized and a lot of really entrenched power centers, thinking about- You have thoughts about giving your Dow experience and what you're working on. Have you thought about how those two worlds might give you? Not in a real serious deliberate way yet. No pressure, that would be a hard question to answer. It's just really interesting thinking about decentralized educational technologies, how we are sharing value with each other around the world in totally new ways. And to your point, the organization that Anne just mentioned, Gitcoin, a lot of these conversations right now are happening around what is a public good? Like extra math sounds like that kind of thing of, this is something that everyone will benefit from. Having a global population that has math skills, everyone is made better for something like that. So how can we start thinking about incentivizing people who are creating them, who are sharing them and they're making sure that this kind of thing is out in the world without it necessarily having to be that somebody in a village in Uganda now has to pay a tuition for when, yeah, on a global scale, we all benefit. So there was a company, oh sorry, go ahead. No, please continue. I was gonna say there was a company that it started, didn't necessarily take off quite, but the concept was really interesting where the whole premise was there's all this free education available on YouTube, right? All just, you could learn anything you want. And so how do you curate that into something meaningful? And so the idea was basically that for say, Python classes or blockchain classes or something, a curator, so an individual who sort of steps up to the plate, finds all the right YouTube videos, creates a lesson of YouTube videos or a path that someone's gotta follow, then writes a test at the end to help sell one to evaluate their learning skills. And then if they pass the test, they would get a certificate. And if somebody hired them, so a company would say, okay, we're happy to hire someone who's got this particular certificate, the kickback, there would be a kickback from the company to the curator for the creating the content. And that would all happen like digital blockchain based certificates and then crypto based smart contracts would trigger that crypto payment back to the original curator of the content. New learning models and then learn to earn is a new model too, where they're actually paying people microtransactions to watch different content about different blockchain companies. There's some cool stuff happening and in and around that space as well. Yeah, you reminded me that idea of quests that rabbit hole.gg uses and there I thought that was a really clever way of tapping into the community knowledge to be able to provide that sort of a distributed way for people to create localized knowledge like Wikipedia. But right, unfortunately, I've got to drop off but hopefully this will be a recurring call or group. Yeah, we host office hours after all of our regularly scheduled events, usually a week later, same time, same channel. We have an event tomorrow night as well and we'll have office hours the following week. Just check out our events page or our Slack channel and you'll get the updates. Fantastic, much appreciated. Yeah, I appreciate you joining us. Thanks for all the work you're doing. Thanks. Cool. It's so interesting, they see the kind of people that come to these calls and the organizations that they're working with. There's such a breadth of the tech suite audience. It's really awesome. You guys are doing interesting things. Yeah, I don't know if Caitlin if you guys are interested at all in contributing but we are just tossing around ideas before you got here about something happening around the world right now and you need the different headlines. A lot of us are US based and unfortunately we're seeing some not friendly things happening in the blockchain world there and it is pushing more and more of these companies overseas. We've got some interesting times ahead of us but yeah. Hi Shannon, thanks so much for sharing. I'm just, I'm tuning in. I'm with Filecoin Foundation for the Decentralized Web who's partnering with TechSoup and I've grown to have office hours because it's so cool to hear what folks are building and interested in learning about within the D-Web space and I agree with you wholeheartedly that it's been a turbulent road this year and I'm curious to hear what others feelings are on decentralized technology and how they wanna buy it in their day-to-day work. Yeah and thank you for the work that you're doing at Filecoin. You guys are awesome and I have both crossed paths with you guys a lot and you're doing so much in the impact space right now. It's really exciting to see as you guys continue to expand out but yeah, there's a lot going on in Asia right now because the US is becoming increasingly unfriendly being European based right now. It's not unfriendly but it's getting harder to own crypto in the UK given some of the laws that they just passed. France is doing some interesting things both to incentivize more tech development and more entrepreneurship here but then also making sure that they really have consumer protections in place which make it a little bit of a double-edged area to operate but we've got a big event coming up in Istanbul. There's going to be a lot of people from the Ethereum community gathering in November and that's quite interesting. I just spent some time there talking to their local communities because they entered the decentralized space. They had their own stable token for a while called B-Lira pegged to their local currency so people could start playing online and engaging in different ways there and the government came in after a couple of years and criminalized any cryptocurrency transaction in commerce. So it's not illegal to own crypto. You can still buy it as an investment and in a lot of ways people are there's a lot of speculation there but you are not allowed to use any sort of cryptocurrency in commercial exchange though I can't buy a t-shirt with Bitcoin or with B-Lira or any of those. So it's created an interesting space for like their college students to operate in right now and that a lot of them are super interested they want to learn programming around it and everyone's just in the space of like we hope in the next administration it will change though it's like a timeout but not a firm stock. Governments around the world are putting us all in these kind of liminal spaces of are we gonna be okay? Are we not? Do we continue forward? Or do we really put the brakes on things? Yeah, and I would add to that this technology and these innovations are going to happen. The question is weird which countries are gonna benefit from the taxation of those companies the great people that these companies bring in and still look at the United States it's really it's driving people away. I know a lot of people that have last companies are leaving they're actively choosing to set up in the United States for those reasons and it's the uncertainty and the fear was some of this where if you're doing something that's that forward think came as breaking down so many traditional power structures that it could be more than just losing your business it could be jail time it could be other things that are much more serious as I think it's very much to the United States that they're getting on board and really driving some of this innovation forward. But thanks for everything with Filecoin. Yeah, absolutely love your organization and everything you're doing so we're super stoked to be working with you. Hopefully I'll see y'all in Istanbul I think that we'll be there for lab week with Protocol Labs and I think there will be a network based for Filecoin Foundation as well. Very cool. Yeah, it'll be a pleasure to meet in person. Yeah, and I agree we just had with another one of our project partners Blockchain Law for Social Good Center at University of San Francisco we have an international affiliated scholars program and so there's three different scholars based in different regions and it's gonna be really interesting to hear how they're applying blockchain use cases in their local region and how it's interplaying with policy and government offices. If you're interested in seeing what different what the climate is in different regions and attitudes towards blockchain I'm happy to connect you with folks over there as well. Amazing. Yeah, that's super interesting. Yeah, and if I may Shannon what I understand coming I come from a this is John again I come from a background of finance and what I understand when it has to do with NFTs domestically in the US it has to do with whether we treat them as a security or not and my understanding that Bitcoin is pretty much that's been settled. The question being whether it's a commodity or it's a security and I understand Bitcoin and Ether are on pretty safe ground there. The question relies in is to how regulatory wise they're gonna treat NFTs and the umpteen thousands of other NFTs out there has whether it's deemed a security or not when something's deemed as a security and it's being traded a whole host of issues come up as to disclosure financial disclosure of the issuer in this case of the securities and that's where all the problems lie not to defend the US but the US has always been very had a strong financial market largely due to the level of disclosure and their disclosure laws are pretty strict when it comes to the security and exchange commission however that all goes we shall see and but I just wanted to add that dimension to it I can't speak to HIPAA and all those things but that's what I do know about securities who at least the securities laws are concerned in the US. Yeah and it's a tricky conversation on a weekly basis right now we thought that Ethereum was pretty safe and that starting to look like it might not be the case depends there's a lot of concern about the switch to proof of state and where more of the nodes are located there's all sorts of things and unfortunately in a lot of cases and the US takes the cake for this but there's a lot of ways in which they keep the laws intentionally obscure so that they can decide what's within and what's without it would be wonderful if they just came right out and said here is a very black and white delineation of what's okay and what's not and they're doing it in a lot of the banking investigators and the former state prosecutors that I've been speaking to about this say that that's left in place on purpose so that they've got a little bit of wiggle room to Ann's point it really is not it but now starting to be increasingly where there's places like Estonia and Malta that are very in on setting themselves up as being a friendlier environment and it's hard to watch other places like the US start to have people offshore and we're gonna get left behind in some ways because we're just making it too hard to function there. In cases with the admin of DAO's you don't actually need a jurisdiction but you can operate with people employees all over the world there's no official company there's no shares is not owned by anything there's nothing there and that's going to become increasingly prevalent I know shape shift DAO they converted from a traditional US corporation into a full DAO they're not registered anywhere and so that brings into consideration things like what human rights law do they follow what resources law do they follow if you want a maternity leave what are people entitled to based on is it based on where they live is based on their citizenship is it just something that the group decides and then if something goes wrong what do you sue how do you sue a DAO that doesn't have a jurisdiction how do you get recourse so there's going to be some big questions that I think we haven't tackled yet and then I know in the chat I think Nick had posted this about NFTs and how do you classify them and some of the challenges with these tokens is that it's possible I've been asking someone to put a stamp on an email it just doesn't really fit with the systems that we necessarily have today so if you look at an NFT but she didn't mention all it means is that one token is not equal to a similar token they're different things but an NFT can be a commodity like it could be like or Nick was saying one could consider products like an art piece it can also be a fraction of a house which would look a lot more like maybe a security it could be a fraction of a company which would definitely look like a security it could be a digital identity which like how do you qualify that trying to get one label across something that really is more of a function rather than one grid of a thing is so challenging and that's where I think governments are trying to use the old systems that they have to put all these new things into the boxes they're comfortable with and the reality is we might just need new boxes or maybe no boxes I think that's where things get a little bit more complicated but Nick I don't know do you want to jump in and maybe tell us more about what you're thinking there I used to run Exchange we used to have to list we didn't have to but like we listed tokens and back in the days especially in 2017 there were a lot of ICO tokens that sort of got into the STO area and I think at the time what we wanted to do is referencing in the financial market they use Howie Test H-O-W-E-Y that's you pretty much ask yourself four questions and then you decide whether that is a security or not from there and a lot of that has to do with where this is a profitable thing or not based on speculation prices speculation and I think that is still very effective usually you just have to ask yourself that and then you can pretty much the answer will fall out thanks this is great guys no need to draw it out if we started to answer your questions and wrap things up but John thank you so much for coming with all of the curiosity that was awesome really interesting to start kicking ideas around there and Nick having run an Exchange you've got really interesting experience there especially if you're doing it back in 2017 I'm sure you saw all sorts of things so thanks for joining us guys if we have any other questions certainly happy to hang out and answer them what do you think Billy? how are we doing? I think closing if no one has any other questions or comments is the right thing to do let you get back to your mornings or whatever time in the day it is and thank thanking Shannon and Anne for joining us and thank you all for your questions and engagement for anyone who can't get enough of this good stuff we host webinars every week and we also have a Slack channel that you can jump into Eli just ping the chat with our Slack channel so if you want to keep the conversation going jump into the Slack and we welcome your questions and conversations then so thanks everyone thanks Shannon thanks Anne