 Again, Pastor Paula de Farrasen speaks on corruption in Nigeria, questions the censors' figures and calls Ainek a fraud. And the House of Representatives considers a bill to make the president and governors lose their positions after the defection. Well, this is plus politics and I am Mary Annacolle. Paula de Farrasen, the senior pastor of the House on the Rock Church, has spoken on the various challenges of the country. The prelate referred to the Electoral Commission as a fraud, saying that the number of citizens leaving in the north is incorrect. He also called Lord Lugad, who amalgamated the north and south in Nigeria in 1914, evil. On the way forward, he said it is important to educate the citizenry, encouraging people to get their voters card and, of course, a political party card. Joining us to discuss this is Alesta Wilcox, who is a political analyst and or maybe she is a broadcast journalist and we also have Kunli Lauer, he is a public affairs analyst. We'll take a short break to bring you that video of Pastor Paula de Farrasen and when we return, we'll be talking. By the way, if we don't fix some of Nigeria's problems today, that is this Ainek problem. I will say it plainly, Ainek, put me in trouble if you like, it is a fraud. The numbers in Nigeria as far as census are concerned and as far as election is concerned are a lie. And if nobody will speak up about it, the righteous should speak. The numbers are not properly reflected in our voting. This is the only country in West Africa where you move from the ocean to the desert and the numbers decrease or rather they increase. The only country, the only country in the world where you move from a large body of water to little or no water and the numbers increase. It was not Nigerians that started it. It was the parents of Nigeria who were not good parents. They were not good parents. The man Lord Lugard was a devil incarnate and what he did to this country was suffering it many years later and it's time that we must tell the truth. The country deserves people like you because people are exactly the opposite of you and the people ruling the country. And from the wards, they're the ones who select their governors, they select their House of Representatives, they select their senators, they select their congressman and they select the president. It's a party system. If you're not in the party, you do not affect the system. I can't get a party card. You know why? Because they are APC here, they are PDP here and we can't tell the difference because they say the blood of one washes the others free from their sins. That kind of stupid stupidness is that. That politicians are allowed to cross carpet and accept it as they see that one governor washed all his crimes away in the blood of apes. I said the blood of apes. I didn't say anything else but that. Part of my job is to make sure that the wealth of Nigeria is redistributed with an evenness. How do you do it? Not by giving the poor advice and oil at election time. Give them an education. Education in today's age does not have to be formal. Well, that is a clip from the long message that was preached by Pastor Paul Adi first and this is not the first time he's talking about this but I want to start with you, Kunle, because he talks about the numbers that is generated from our senses and of course he talks about INEC being a fraud. Now you are of the Electoral College who are advocating for free for incredible elections. What are your thoughts on this, especially because it's coming from a pulpit but not necessarily the normal voter education that we would be expecting? I think first I would like to address his position on INEC before the centres. So as long as we have the president appointing the INEC chairman, the INEC is never going to be independent and this is because for independence, INEC needs to be able to appoint itself either from within its ranks or as the Ministry of Justice to be passed under the Ministry of Justice and then you have people that would select high court judges. As regards the census, it's a long time in Nigeria the census has been done and not only the North has falsified numbers even the South has falsified numbers so it's an acrossboard thing and they falsified based on the fight and scramble for Nigeria's resources. So of course because Nigeria also does not have a computerised database system to keep our numbers we have of course falsified a lot of things across board and this is the problem we do not have, it's like we are planning for dinner and we don't know how many people we are cooking for that's the exact problem. Let me come to you, I know that as a journalist he behoves upon us to get data get information that is factual such that we can make reference to Bakula here saying that we have falsified numbers across the country it's not just a North or Southern problem it's a nationwide problem but let me just take you back to 2013 the NPC boss under the Good Locked Jonathan Administration first was Udomegu, he spoke about the population census in Nigeria and he did say that the country has not had any credible census since 1816 and here we are, we keep making reference to the fact that Nigeria has 200 plus million and this has been the same number over the years where do you stand on this especially if you have to give information as regards the number of people in different places do you support what Pastor Paul is saying or do you have a different standpoint? Okay, so I think that first of all Gleaming INAG is I mean it's out of place because it's not INAG's responsibility to count or to provide census figures for the country, there is a body whose job it is to do that and it's very instructive that politicians get into power, they have these numbers put up I don't know how they come about the figures but like you said if we indeed have the census that someone says is I mean it hasn't happened in many many years where then do we get the numbers and then again we have a voter registration process we have a voter register if that is what INAG has then that is what INAG will work with and then again over time why have the politicians or the political class or even civil society not pushed for a census to be done I mean with the unrest the violence in the northeast and other parts of the country you could say okay I mean right now they have an excuse but you know time was maybe 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 years ago when it was possible to conduct a census so if we don't have the figures really what are we doing then it becomes a problem but I don't think it's an INAG problem it is a national problem it's a system problem nobody wants to fix it because if you fix it then you're going to take it away fraught primarily and a lot of corruption that goes on there were 5,000 people who want to see data so if we don't have the data then you know you can do all sorts of shady things but once you have data then a lot of the rubbish that goes on in Nigeria cannot happen and that's what they are preventing the political people let's say civil society and other people have sort of enabled them to do this and get away with it when you say we've enabled because being an enabler means that you create but how have we as Nigerians enabled this to continue to fester so first of all if we go back to the voting process and the voting day I mean many times the figures that they give there's always a contest for me that is very disturbing that you'll be somewhere you would see maybe 200 people and then when the results come out it's much more than that they don't come out but when the figures are announced they're much more than those that were there and people haven't said no we need to cancel that I mean some of the conversations we have around elections and the process should contain those kinds of conversations those kinds of calls and then again if census is not happening and those that should push for it because if the political class are then they're never going to push for it so those that can be raising our voices enough are we making those calls are we making those demands enough so if we're not raising our voices to say we want this, we demand this or nothing I mean they could say we're not going to come out to vote if we don't have you know, census I mean we could have done that maybe 12 years ago or earlier than that but if we look the other way and say well you know we're enabling that let me go to you Alastair now I would like to quote him directly to blame the irregularity of distribution or distortion I beg your pardon and falsification of figures for selfish reasons which Enor has pointed out he said and politicians have given all sorts of reasons for these distortions and falsifications and he has said also that there's been an outrage from the north you know every time issues of census is brought up I remember that one of the reasons why Festus or Domego was asked to resign was because there were reactions to what he said and of course a certain Norseness did not like the idea I mean there were several reports as to why he resigned or why he was asked to step down but if we as a country do not necessarily like Enor said put our acts together and try to you know get these politicians to do right by us why should we be complaining in the first instance like Pastor Paul well thank you thank you for having me and I want to thank my two colleagues on the platform I think we're going to have a nationalistic discussion this evening which is fine to me I would have clapped for Pastor Paul a different if he has not made those tribal sectional comments I mean are saying targeting the north as his basis of his whatever someone I think this Nigerian this merchandise of Nigeria Nigerian project is taking a lot of people too far beyond their calling if Pastor Paul a different he has talked about the Nigerian wars rather than targeting the north as its target of his anger I think he will have made a very good I think he failed it at that point and I'm giving a thumbs up my other colleague has talked about it in terms of of that in Nigeria of course like my colleague it's an across board theme we are not born when 1916 when the country was not born and he has a father that was a chief judge that lived through this system they all benefited from this system so if then they didn't complain with all the anomalies of the system and they didn't put their foot down as to do what was right so now to begin to because of today's merchandisation of Nigeria and they want to be played to the gallery and play the populist game people now target the north as the problem of Nigeria and from reverse states and we know what election is in reverse states I will not share away from saying this reverse acquire bomb delta they are the eyes the eyes of info in terms of election in Nigeria you grow up in protocol you know what happened in protocol there will not be election you hear gunshot and on the day you hear humongous figures that will be ruled out humongous figures under pitot dili it was sea slide moon slide victories but each time people talk about election they talk only about canon and so we are not addressing the issue we hide our own thing people will do down south here we cover ourselves the southern dominated press will always focus on what happened in canon what happened in Sokoto look in 1983 I was young but I knew when Sokoto Resolve comes it has always been like that when Sokoto Resolve comes it's overshadowed all that happened in South East and so that has contributed today and if Pasapal is telling the world why in the north at age 13 12-13 you say in south down south you don't how many people bear children at 13-15 how many girls in the north you marry 6 wives 4 wives in the south you marry only one and then you keep your children to grow which is the good thing we do so why would they not be populated in the south there are more Christians in the south than in the north in the south we believe in one wife we believe in castles and all those things they don't believe in the north they believe in progression so the population in the north cannot be compared with that of the south so if educated, well-traveled man does not know these basic facts you talked about the emergencies where do they come from is there also a lie you talked about early pregnancies and teenage pregnancy is not in the north so this is in the middle of the north and if a certain pregnancy we claim it doesn't know there's nothing wrong with that it's not in truth or it's calling you should be able to tell the truth if it's able to tell you the truth in the sense that I'm coming when do you not understand when do you not understand like you said what do you not understand why was it started so sometimes you blame the wrong people for your problem Alistair we'll come back to you I think Kuley wants to Kuley wants to bot in Alistair hold on, we'll get back to you Kuley you want to bot in I see that you were whenever we have this composition I'd like to stay away from the northern and southern rhetoric I think he was making mention of something he heard in the video and that's why I also didn't give Paul Adifaras in statement a little credence to continue the north and south dragging there's something he mentioned which is a common narrative which points to Nigeria and the constitution as regards Lord Lugard now Lord Lugard and the British left the country left Nigeria in 1960 by 1963 we're fully clear of them with our constitution our first constitution following then over the last 20 years even coming into this democratic dispensation I don't know how everybody has absorbed the national assembly from the 1999 constitution if you look at countries like the US between 1999 and present they've made more than 4200 amendments to their constitution is it because Paul Adifaras doesn't want to mention members of his congregation in the national assembly because it is key that even the factory don't have a census even if the president doesn't want a census the national assembly with the act that empowers it has the power to push a census the national assembly has the power to create a constitution that's favourable I don't know why nobody is pointing in their direction they seem to be so aloof with it and especially the national assembly they need to see government like their citizens and everybody just seems to absorb them of their own responsibility which is not constituency projects which is also not provided by the constitution so constituency projects is a direct anomaly of what they are supposed to do for me Nigeria's problem is the national assembly if we do not get the national assembly right we cannot have a country Paul mostly talked about education and I think that was the last thing that was in that video he talked about education and he says that I'd like to quote him that it is deliberate that education was killed somewhat in the south in the north he's literally talking about the whole country that it was deliberate tactics that now if you want to access good education you need to be able to afford a private education for you to be able to get something that is as close as good education but then he's saying that why can't our leaders have access to education because he thinks that if we are educated then we would be able to ask the right questions so I'm putting this to you again we have SDG goals that we're supposed to meet as a country we haven't even scratched the surface we look at our budget and the monies that are earmouts for education it's like a drop in the bucket could he be right that maybe this is a deliberate attempt or could it be that maybe we as a people do not necessarily prioritize education as much he's correct and you know how strongly we the people have accepted that narrative that has been pushed by the political class I mean if Nigerians know we will make more demands most of the things that happen will not happen and even the things that do happen they won't happen the way they should so what they have done and you know I've thought about this they killed elementary school they make tertiary education almost impossible I mean it's deliberate there's no other way to say it's actually very calculated because if they say that education is not important they want to ask why are their children studying abroad why is it that those that are in Nigeria are in schools that you pay seven digits why if it's not important if healthcare is not important for example why do you need to fly abroad to get treatment if it is not important why are you making sure that your children benefits have good education the best with taxpayers money do you understand so they know what they're doing and you know with this miseducation so it's not just the lack of education when they pretend to educate they miseducate the people so we have people saying oh like for example in river states I work on radio and you hear people say oh is Buhari everything is Buhari then I ask them so river state has been state for how many years now how many northerners have sat in your state assembly nobody will answer how many northerners have sat as governments nobody will answer how many northerners have represented you at the national assembly nobody will answer so how is it that the north of Buhari is your problem so there is the miseducation part of it and that is where the politicians go hard they make sure that the people are blinded to the basic things that they are supposed to provide and just create all this when I hear people say there's religious I don't know what they call it there's no bias anywhere it's what they're trading and people are blinded because they are miseducating people you know deliberately I mean look at the NSAS protest for example the church was there the mosque was there people were there and everybody was alright so where is the division that they preach or they talk about politicians come and they want to divide that's part of their miseducation plan they always come up with that division along ethnic, religious, political it's all rubbish and we ask the question all the time why is it that they don't quarrel among themselves when it's time to buy new cars for themselves when it's time to have a good life on taxed spheres, blood and money they're together it's beautiful Nigeria is okay but when it starts to touch them then they say oh the people need to understand they will need to make sacrifices so yes they have killed education and you know it pains me that when you hear callers on radio I heard the state government a few days ago saying I provided this 17,000 desks and chairs for family schools and one question I asked was how many family schools do we have so that the pricing can only say only 17,000 I don't understand so what are we doing so what we're doing is this and I was telling someone a few days ago what we're doing especially in a state like river studies that was setting the state backwards in like 50 years because if there's no education and the young people here see that militancy works aggression works that's the path they're going to follow and they kind of understand because that's the model they see and it's working it's effective, you work hard as a militant whatever it is that you do you break the law, you're able to shoot people you're able to hit gangster, terrorize people then something maybe a councillor local government chairman you get into the house assembly traditional rule or something so that's what they're doing they know what they're doing and it's daily break so I think it's important that political parties do the right thing and that we have what they call NOA I don't know what they're doing I don't know what they're doing don't get us started let's not go there don't get us started on anyway that's a different conversation it's for another day they're not funded they're not funded but do they earn a salary every month do their bosses get some from impress so yeah I'm sure that they're included in the budget every other month so where does the money go that's why I said it's a conversation for another day because we do not have a lot of time I think that we can also help them because if people know better they will do better do you understand so if civil society for example and other private individuals can say let's fund NOA let's support them, let's have these town halls and let them come and talk to people and they drag people in with some incentives, maybe lunch or something so they start to hear the truth and until we do that until they bring me start to educate people my dream is not going to go anywhere there's no amount of elections nothing will work the people are educated maybe you and I will kill universities then what is it that we have nothing maybe we need to start to go fund me for NOA but unless that, my last question is to you because we're almost out of time Paso Polatifarassan talked about the fact that we are leaving on a false hope of sorts that we think that our country is rich and he went ahead to say we are poor we are debt poor as a country that we keep deceiving ourselves that we are a rich nation but we're debt poor and I'm thinking to myself we know that we've been in and out of recession, the Naira I always keep saying has taken a deep dive I mean literally our money doesn't have any standing side by side with the dollar or the pound sterling we're facing a very tough time but do you think that the average Nigerian thinks that we are a rich country, why do we think that and what role is the government playing in that falsehood in closing? Well like you said the same poor education that is what is making people and I would have expected that and if I say that what British educated came from a rich home haven't run a church for God knows how long and has prospered in the system to properly educate the people as to the fact that and I always said it, maybe I've said in your program before and I was attacked Nigeria is a rich country and the important thing is that we respect so much from Nigeria, so much so that we don't understand Nigeria is a rich country we are talking about wrong education, yes what is the cost and what is your contribution to education this is a country where we respect free education and of course the university level is a free education we are having in this country talking about the government universities so how do you want to measure up with the British and the University of Serbia is playing 9,000 pounds as in citizens it used to be three before the Vikamero make it 9,000 pounds so how do you measure up so Nigeria is a poor country truly unfortunately the aspect of corruption has ever has concluded that the fact that this corruption is life and so people now look at the corruption angle of we think that we are a rich country Nigeria is a very poor country and that is where we look at what is our GDP compared to our population yes we are talking about our population is not correct but even if you look at our GDP to population divide it Nigeria sells 1.2 million 2.1 million per day let's even show we are 150 million people let's say the main source of income is oil and we sell just about 2.1 million per day on the population of about 150 million people let me take 150 million how much is that Saudi Arabia sells 8 million per day a population of about 30 million people so I want to compare and each time we make that wrong analysis and wrong comparison and unfortunately because government is not true to their words because government do not have that moral bargain to really tell Nigeria look this is a poor country they came giving us false sense of hope so today we have cheap fuel in Nigeria we are first cheap fuel even in the countries that are rich do not sell cheap fuel but we are better with them free and what is the contribution of the church look I am a Christian and I want to talk about the church we don't have time Alastair I am so sorry we are out of time we are out of time I am so sorry I am so sorry we have to go Alastair I am so sorry we have to go I could lay just in a sentence because we are totally out of time my guys are saying we have to go we spoke when Paula De Farris spoke about education what is actually lacking in Nigeria is political education how many of us have read the institution I love the way the middle class just absorbs the self of responsibility of what it created I think we can close with that I want to thank everybody we have raised a broadcast journalist of the Electoral College Alastair Wilcox is a political analyst thank you very much ladies and gentlemen for being part of this conversation thank you well we will take a short break thank you all for staying with us when we come back the House of Representatives takes a step to reduce defections in the political terrain of the country how do they want to do that we will tell you when we come back