 Okay, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for staying around for the whole day Sad time has come. It's our final speech of the day But we've got a good one for you a really good one. So our last speaker for the night is Robert Powell Title of his talk is you are being manipulated. He's the scene where it's senior software Well, I've been talking way too much today the senior software engineer at Cisco Although he does have a degree in psychology, which is interesting He spent the last 18 years in Infosec or we like to call it here cyber Just kidding. Don't call it cyber. I was I was gonna actually tell all the the new Defcon people to walk around saying cyber because it's cool But I thought that was mean so don't do it. Okay Some other interesting things Robert likes long walks on the beach. He likes to make beer and He likes martial arts. So I think we know a lot about you at this point. Okay, so join me in welcoming Robert Okay, so I will say thanks to everybody for staying You know and I saw that there So to be to be fair I figured it was safer just to go by Robert for the rest of the con and tell you guys that I had messed up that Okay, let's start this over I'm introducing our last speaker tonight James Powell On the topic you were being manipulated we can edit that or no I'm hoping no we can't edit it Okay, so for all prosperity. This is the second and real introduction Now he does have a degree all the other stuff was true He does like make beer and martial arts and he has a degree in psychology And he is the senior software engineer at Cisco all of that's true, but his name his name is James Okay, so now welcome me help me welcome James Powell So again because it's Defcon I will go by you know Robert James Gray Raven Just you know say hey you and then if I don't turn around and say no no hey you So with that in mind Thank you once again for staying I Appreciate it. I realized I didn't realize that there were gonna be talks this late But I am very happy because now I'm actually in my zone. This is where I do my best work So some of you may be wondering why I chose a title you are being manipulated and not you may be manipulated And it's the because the more that I kind of dug into this topic the more I realized it's happening all the time It's happening all around us This realization came through if you read the abstract my three now three and a half year old daughter She's actually before in October Which you would think that's kind of weird. Why is this grown adult who has a degree in psychology talking about his daughter? Well, it's because children are amazing social engineers, so you guys got my introduction So I'm gonna skip over so let me start my my timer so I can keep track of that up here. All right You know you guys may be wondering why I'm starting up here. You guys got my introduction Normally, I would tell you guys a little bit more about myself But if you can see from the screen, there is a tiny child there. That's my daughter Lena She is really the hero of this story and she's the reason why I'm able to stand up here and tell you guys what I learned Which hopefully will be good for y'all you guys when you leave here, especially given where we are so Like I said children are natural social engineers It's because they're they you know, I feel bad saying this because I love my daughter She's a great kid, but children especially small children have a How do we say it a moral flexibility? They just have goals they really don't have the society pressures of right and wrong They just you know, they see something they want it. They do what they have to to get it Anyone who does this for a living you you can you know what that's like so My My first thought when I saw this was basically to lose hope in humanity, you know We we go when we we spend money to become better social engineers We spend money to teach our companies to do this and my daughter Does all of this very naturally at some point we forget how to do this and that's that's probably a shame for us Well, no, it may actually be why we have society around us. So Half of the room maybe not this room Usually half behalf the room is are wondering about the title and I haven't really explained that yet So to be fair you're always being manipulated. It's always happening. Most of it is benign. Most of it is is actually good It's how we survive But you know, there's that whole malicious element that we would like to deal with and you know We're really good at making secure systems. Well, I argue we're really good at making secure systems I am a little software engineer. So I have to and but the humans Kind of come along and they do one thing and then we're all in a bad situation and we're all up on the weekends. So Like I said, most of the interactions are benign But as I was watching my daughter and as she was doing these things to kind of get me Into to get her to do you know let to get like extra pieces of candy or chocolate or whatever She wanted at the time a free a new toy or whatever I Realized that instead I should be looking at these as opportunities to train myself and to paraphrase an instructor of mine He said that you know essentially that every moment in life good or bad can be used as training if we look at it that way So in an effort to embrace that wisdom I said, alright, let's look and see what my daughter can teach me about social engineering But before I get to actually the program that I ended up developing based on her at my interactions with her and her Being my teacher instead of the other way around Let's look at some of our actors in this situation so The good guys right and I say good guys with a question mark because the very first example I'm going to give you guys is corporations Advertising more specifically and I know we all love advertisers Especially when we're online and we've got our ad blockers on and then they tell us that we can't view the article We want to read because we've got an ad blocker. We love that so Advertising is an amazing study especially for someone who's actually you know an armchair psychologist like myself in how to manipulate people their goal is to Design a message and then get you to do something. I mean it's classic social engineering And then next we have friends and family and as you can tell from the picture my daughter has won that day I am just drained. I have you know, no expression She's pointing to tell me to go this way and pretty much I'd followed around wherever she wanted me to go the rest of the night where she said comfortably all my Shoulders getting carried around. I think the Botanical Gardens in Atlanta and then finally we have Pets now think about it pets kind of may seem like a weird one But we bring them into our homes these strange little furry animals and we feed them we take care of them We pet them. We love them and at least in the example of cats They might love us back. I mean I like to think the cats love us back but you know I'm a cat person so we'll you know we'll go on with that and You know I will point out that for any kind of information security talk This does satisfy the requirement of having at least one cat photo So we can go and move on from that I did what wanted to put more cat photos in the in the video, but it was strange I couldn't find any other cat photos that day on the internet. I don't know. It was broke or something So these are our training partners. These are our instructors They're going to teach us and show us the different ways that we are being manipulated every day Conversely we have The bad guys now. I know what you're thinking. That's a pirate with a butter knife in his mouth attacking a computer And that's pretty awesome because I mean we've never seen that in real life. Have we until right now So I thought to myself I'm gonna put that in my talk and everyone feel free to go and tip it that in their talks So the bad guys if we look at it, you have your classic con artists your scammers You know the people who are trying to get money or something from you and then you have you know The usual fishing and fishing attacks that we're also familiar with especially if you were in here most of the day And then I actually include in you know also with the bad guys watering hole attacks because if you think about it A watering hole attack is taking advantage of the natural trust you have for a legitimate site And they're injecting something bad into it. So they really are still taking advantage of basic social engineering And then finally come back to advertising now. I Kind of put advertising on right on the fence. Some of them are good. Some of them are bad But you know Well, we'll see how they we'll see how when we get into the actual talk how they can play both sides of it now So we know who the good guys are we know how what they do we know what we're fighting against the bad guys right and Like most interactions in life, we're gonna take a look at like the most foundational thing that you can do in any attack or defense We're gonna start with trust Because really and truly let's think about it. You guys decided, you know at DEF CON to stay in the room with me and Listen to this talk. So you already have a little bit of trust in me and As you're gonna see in this example because I've known my daughter for a long time I have a lot of trust in her which plays very well to her advantage and in any attack They're gonna someone's gonna try to build rapport with you So This is my daughter If you look at her half of you guys probably want to give her cookies right now because you know She's really cute and you know, this is what she does She manipulates you and this is a question that I get asked every day So she's building in rep repetition already with her attacks. So Kids are fascinating. They've evolved very quickly And the question is simply this and she comes up and she says Papa. Are you happy with me? And Unless she's done something to make me just infuriated right before she asked this question the answer is, you know, of course I'm happy with you because I want my daughter to grow up psychologically strong and you know and and And you know well adjusted like we like any parent does and so what do you think about is what she does when she Asked this question. She's building trust with me You know, she's approaching me like I'm the target and she says, you know, are you happy with me? And I say, oh, of course. And so I respond favorably which in her mind says see I've got him and then comes the tail Then I will have chocolate for dinner now notice. She doesn't ask me a question She tells me we're gonna have chocolate for dinner And so I want to go ahead and point out that I'm I don't I'm not making this up I when I've had the idea for this talk I started writing these things down because Some of them are a little unbelievable, but that's what I love about them She just she sees it and she's like, you know, I want chocolate for dinner and I know how to get it So how can we defend ourselves against them? And granted this is a very simple example. We're gonna start with our foundation. We're gonna build from there How do we defend against this? Well? As most of us in the room know you have to start by being cautious now Being cautious is just good advice in general. You're at Def Con be cautious. I Mean, I think we all agree but what actually is happening behind the scenes is that when we're cautious we slow down we we start to think about the situation we're in and Then we can analyze it a lot better So whereas trust is the foundation or is the foundation of our attacks being cautious is kind of the foundation of all of our defenses We start from being cautious and then we move forward The second part which is a phrase that I am sure everyone in the room has heard a thousand times And now it just kind of his background noise But I want you guys to you know stop for a moment and bring it back to the foreground trust but verify once again as a software engineer Someone may tell me the code does this Okay, cool. I believe them. They're usually a good programmer, and I hope that when I say that they believe me Hopefully, I'm a good programmer too. I no one's told me that I'm not so I'm gonna go ahead and assume that But I always go back and verify. I want to make sure that it's doing exactly what they say It's doing. I want to make sure the unit test pass all the usual things that we do But the same thing applies in this situation and usually with my daughter It means that I have to go to an independent source So I trust my daughter then I have to verify if I'm unsure about something which you know as she gets older I'm unsure about more and more things So I go to the independent source in the family Which is my wife because she's really the one who knows what all is happening in the family And what things should happen and shouldn't happen. So I'll go to her and I'll say honey Do I need to do this and she'll say no and really did you have to ask? And then I go right and then I walk off and I tell my daughter no and then I say your mother said so and See you're always being manipulated right So now let's look at a real-world example because I mean I could tell you guys stories about my daughter and that may help But let's look at how this applies in the real world with these defenses. So I'm sure we're all familiar with Dan. He's from IT He's here to help I mean look at him. He's very trustworthy and he's got the silver shades, you know, he's at his little desk So I work at a very big company now It didn't used to be a big company we were acquired and now I don't know who anyone is especially in IT and With a lot of the real-world examples What you'll see is that it's actually a combination of attacks and this you know, this makes sense We're starting with foundations with a three and a half year old We're trying to attack against you are trying to defend against people who are professionally trained who are well motivated. So IT being used as this approach you have trust may be an IT But they also have a position of authority which helps build the trust a little bit faster because you're supposed to do what IT tells you At least that's what they keep telling me at my company. I try to find ways around that Because I'm a software engineer and then nine years before that was a sysadmin. So I You know appreciate those guys, but sometimes they really don't know what cool and awesome is until I show them so Let's go through the let's go through the same attack. So the they're gonna, you know calls. I'm Dan I'm from IT building trust right and The target if they're in a good mood, they'll probably respond favorably You know morning Dan, you know, I you know you're here to help me I know you're trying to make sure my computer is up to date So we don't have any attacks, but you know, I know my computer is up to date. I'm really on top of this stuff Then comes the reinforcement Dan's gonna say excellent, you know, that's great I'm glad that you've done that, but I just need you to verify through this website we'll call the website X not to get anybody in trouble and You know, so how do we apply our defenses in this situation? Well for being cautious You know, we're gonna stop for a moment. We're gonna think about this and we're gonna well I've never had to update I never had to verify updates before That seems a bit weird and then you're gonna verify through an independent source So you trust but verify and you say, you know, the easiest way non-confrontationally as we kind of all know is say Hey, Dan, I'm really busy right now, but I'll call you back in five minutes And you don't even if the Dan gives you a number you ignore it And then you call your actual IT number which you can find and then you get it taken care of if it actually is legitimate It's pretty straightforward But in the heat of the moment because Dan's gonna you know use a attack later on it's hard to interrupt these thought patterns That we've built because once again trust is how we built civilization. We want to trust people It's you know, it's the nice thing to do. I was raised in South Georgia We're supposedly very friendly and I'm very trusting so From trust we move on to a different type of attack and I was actually really surprised and this is where I started encouraging My daughter and teaching her what she was actually doing In an effort to evolve her, you know, very quickly So developing reciprocity now we all know reciprocity is the you know balance We want to get back to this place of balance So someone's going to give you something and then you're going to feel naturally inclined to restore the balance with them Once again, someone gives you a gift. You feel like you should give them back a gift This is not necessarily a bad thing. There have been nine examples all over the place So let's look at how my daughter Uses reciprocity to her advantage So No joke. She found this vacuum cleaner. We still have no idea where and she started cleaning things Um, and then she turns and she says papa. Look how good I'm cleaning So that's the opening right? She's she's setting me up for something And um, and then you know, she's given me something unexpected. She's cleaning And then you know, I don't want her to think cleaning is bad because if you saw my living room Well, probably right now There's toys over it that I will step on and hurt my feet and my ankles and everything else But I want her to think you know, you need to clean up your toys. That's a good thing to do So I don't want to shoot her down So we want to rein, you know, and then she'll reinforce this right because now that I've kind of been like, oh That's a good thing that you did she'll say Look at how clean I made it. She's reinforcing that she's done something good I did good right now. So she's never she hasn't given me an out She's forcing me to say yes because she knows that I want her to be well adjusted Um, seriously three and a half years old. She already knows this Um, and then comes the ask Since I did a good job Can I have candy? Now my daughter is not very patient. So this happens in about the span of 30 seconds Um, she's very good at creating urgency Even in her request so Reciprocity is a little more difficult because we are inclined like I said almost on an instinctive level to restore balance between You know, we don't want to feel indebted to someone So we can start with a very simple question to to build our defense against this You know, do I how well do I know this person? Well in the case of my daughter I've known her since the moment she was born and um That is both an advantage for her and a disadvantage for her because I do know her very well So I want to trust her. She's got the rapport But at the same time I know her motivations. They seem to circle around candy chocolate You guys see a theme forming here, right kids kids like sweets. Um, so The disadvantage is now starting to pay off and she's moved on to a different type of attack and added complexity But for right now we can ask this question about somebody else if we don't know them Then we can obviously start from the point of why should I trust what they're giving me and you can be a little more cautious From there you can start to analyze is this situation more of a give than a take because that can usually mean that they're trying to set you up for something Once again, you can make a really wild, you know assumption and be completely wrong about it But in the most cases this is going to protect us So we want to be you know, we still want to be fair We still want to be balanced, but we want to do it in a way that doesn't compromise us We don't want to be the person that you know jeopardizes our company So now let's look at a real-world example not maybe not quite malicious, but you know as a homebrewer that was mentioned before Um, this is a situation that I have to be particularly careful of and the reason why is because if you guys don't know This is Billy Mays. They may have known him from selling OxyClean Um I liked him because the man always had a ton of energy and I thought his head might actually explode on screen during the commercials Uh, so, you know, and we're very familiar with this phrase. We've heard it in many different situations, but wait There's more So as a homebrewer, I'm up very late at night. I'm working on something and the commercial comes on in the background This has gone down quite a bit since I switched over to Netflix. They apparently don't have commercials um, so You're going to give the target something unexpected. So in my case, it's going to be they're going to start off with a pound of OxyClean So for those of you who don't know homebrewers, we use OxyClean to clean car boys to make better beer Uh, it's just a really good thing to do and you know sanitation very good with beer Now a pound of OxyClean. Eh, all right. I may need that, but it's not that good of a deal And then as I'm just about to change the channel, they're like, but wait, there's more Okay, I think I'll wait around for this. I'll see what happens Um, we all know what's going to happen. They're going to like triple the offer They're going to do all this stuff because we're very familiar with infomercials, but Then they start to reinforce the usual thing You won't find a deal this good Oh, well, you know, it is three o'clock in the morning I am a homebrewer. I need some OxyClean. So he could be right. I may not find a deal this good And then comes the ask can you really afford to pass up and offer this good? Well, you know, I am low on OxyClean I could use three pounds and they're really just asking for extra shipping So I'm not going to lie. There has been some times where I've bought OxyClean in bulk like this. So Um, we should admit our weaknesses so that we can move on Although given from last talk, maybe not at DEF CON Um, so please don't try to, you know, fish me with OxyClean And you know, the same thing is happening here They're creating this imbalance to where you feel like compelled to act now And then the last thing that they're actually taking advantage of Is the thing that is really the lynch pin to all good social engineering attacks because once again If you prevent someone from being cautious you prevent them from thinking about it You create a sense of urgency And urgency is where we really fall down because as humans when we're under pressure when we're in an urgent situation We tend to stop thinking and we become reactionary And you guys might be thinking okay so far. I believe you your daughter, you know She builds trust. She asks really good questions You know, she's kind of cute so that she can get away with it Like most small children are and then she's kind of figured out the stress of prosody Probably because she's been given things at school and she learns this stuff from other kids Very cool. How does a small child create urgency that causes a parent to react? Well, since she was an infant she's actually had a very good way to do this Once again, I want to point out these are real stories. Um, I do not know what she said So I just put as close as I could get that you guys want to understand now The funny thing about infants and even up to toddlers is when they cry It is that a frequency that your brain it goes to a part of your brain and your brain reacts Every person who's a parent in the room will know this You've heard an infant cry You could be like, you know in the middle of pouring pasta into a colander And you will drop everything and run into wherever the kid is to see what's wrong It is biological. So this is the this is the tool that she has. She has a biological instinct that she can use Um, she's getting to the point where it's a little played out now. So, you know, getting to where it's just background noise The story here is and for those of you in the room who don't have parents and have not watched frozen 9 000 times as I have Is that my daughter used to have long hair and she wanted always in an Elsa braid Elsa for those who still don't know about frozen is the main character. She has a braid that goes down the side of her head Um, so after she got her haircut because she didn't like getting her hair combed and because you can see in the picture It's short She asked the stylist to put her hair into an Elsa braid When she was told she couldn't do that That happened Kids cry for reasons. Sometimes we can explain them. Sometimes we just go with it So she said papa and immediately wherever I was on my phone doing something probably, you know Looking at videos of cats on the internet I dropped my phone. I run over to her and I'm like, okay. What's wrong? So she's already got my attention. She's created the urgency And then she immediately starts trying to console me It's okay papa That's weird. Um, she was crying and now I'm the one being told it's okay Um, so I'm like, okay. Well, you know Cool and then she reinforces and she gives me the very urgent thing because the thing is is once you've gotten a child to Stop crying you do not want the child in the public place to start crying again, right? Parents once again, you'll get this so she reinforces this and that gets her request in Can you get it for me? I don't know what it is. So I just start handing her things because once again We're in the middle of this very public place. I don't want her to start crying again And that's kind of how she won and I fully admit my daughter won that day She wins a lot when she uses crying once again It's kind of starting to play out and she's starting to evolve her attacks even more Which I find fascinating and I am encouraging although my wife keeps telling me to stop I plan to bring her very soon and see how she does in the real world So Lesson one for the defense Follow the process, right? We hear this we do this every day. We tell people around us to do this every day So in this case, do you have a process? Okay, you don't cool. That's great. We can start there develop a process Now train in the process get to where you have dreams about the process And then you can always follow the process, right? It's very simple very straightforward That's what we think right so let's go to lesson number two Remember lesson number one Always follow the process And the reason why is because if you do one thing where you're not following the process That's really all it takes. We all know this. That's the reason why we love social engineering It's because if you get that one person to make that one mistake You win Same thing with you know malware or anything else you get the person to click on one button or to do one thing They're not supposed to do you win Um, it's kind of unfair in that way, but that's the world we live in so let me take you to my favorite example so far So most people in the room laugh because we're all we're all aware of what this is Honestly, I could do with I could do an entire talk of just on how awesome This slide is just in the pop-up nature and the way that they've got a color coded and the way they've got the font set But we're talking about something different here And so what I want to do is take a moment We're all we're all pretty familiar with this but think about the person in your company Or people in your company that make up the majority of the company The people who are very afraid that they're going to be the person that does the one thing that compromises the company, right? So when they see this a sense of urgency is created because they were doing something now We won't get into whether it was bad or good. No judgment here. This is judgment-free zone They could have been doing something bad. They probably were doing something bad So this pops up and the instantly they think oh my god. I have compromised the company Good news the reinforcement comes from the pop-up as it is and I want to point out that notice that the virus is in all caps And it's underlined The other things that are dangerous are all in all caps and they're blue and they're underlined But the majority of the page is red and why because since the age of well one when my daughter could start talking she knew red light meant stop So once again built in that's as I'm as a societal pressure work ingrained and trained to see certain things and react to them that way But these people are here to help they've detected the issue and can fix it And that's what this person thinks they can fix it And so then they reinforce it with immediate action Just call this number and we'll take care of it or click on this link and we'll take care of it Oh, man. Thank goodness. I could have been the one that compromised the company, but I got these people to take care of it So we're getting better at this But the way that this is laid out is just in my mind genius because they're directing you immediately to what you want to see They've highlighted it all in helpful yellow And it's there So I won't also point out what I thought was hilarious about this and one of the reasons why I chose this one Is because it says your computer may have a virus But I read it three times when I was looking forward and missed the may and I knew I mean and I was reading this knowing what it was So it's very effective once again. They use you know attackers will use psychology. They are well trained This is good So up to this point. I've told you guys a couple of a couple of stories, right I've given you kind of three different directions that the my program is kind of built on starting with very foundational stuff You know started with trust looked at reciprocity Started to see how these things are happening around me all the time in the world after you know kind of doing this game with my daughter And but at the same time, you know, we're talking about a defensive training program that all of us can use to make ourselves more aware of when we're being manipulated So why can't we just do what i'm doing right now, right? I'm standing here. I'm talking to everybody in the room You guys are all paying attention You're learning stuff. This is how we train everyone at our companies, right and they're getting better, right? No Well, actually I will say there's one example fishing attacks I seem to be having a little bit of a you know glacier movement towards better And I'll give them that it seems to be working depending on how it's done, but With the more general attacks, we're not really making much of a difference because it comes down to a very simple principle, right? We're not training them like we're how like they were going to have to fight in the real world So you know I mentioned that I take martial arts And one of the things that I am very comfortable with the martial arts is training like I fight Everything that I do is for when I would actually have to use it And I'm not a Brazilian jujitsu guy, but I do know a little bit of the terminology So what's happening in this picture is the guy on the bottom who looks like he's at a disadvantage is actually in the guard position And what I want you guys to pay attention to is not so much the Brazilian jujitsu, but look at the guy's face He's calm He's very relaxed because he's been here a hundred times a thousand times He's ready. He's waiting on the guy who looks like he has the advantage to make a mistake And then he's going to capitalize on that mistake And the reason why he's very effective and why he's very calm is because he's trained like he's fighting So that's what we want to do here. We want to take and create a series of low-risk environments So let's let's look at my daughter for example when I started playing this game with her If she beat me If she actually tricked me She gets a piece of candy Now she does have to eat her dinner first before I give her chocolate, but she still gets chocolate And her style of the her attack mimics the actual attacks that we look at in the world now granted they're they're more simple But that's good because I'm trying to increase my detection I don't want to just jump into a challenge with like the guys who are competing here because I would lose every time Um, it's just the way that it is they're going to be much more subtle They're going to be much more You know graceful in their attacks for lack of a better word My daughter is much more like a bull in a china shop at this moment And that's good for me because I'm not the smartest person in the room and I'm always sleep deprived. So she already has two advantages And what you're trying to do by doing this is cultivating your awareness Once again in a low-risk environment. So if you lose you don't really lose big so The good news is you will get better If you have access to a small children and permission from a parent if you are not the parent Children evolve very fast My daughter keeps me on my toes and it's amazing. I love it because once again I'm now trying to teach her what she's doing and the the strategies that she's using Once again, I get told by my wife not to do this Because my wife's falling behind in this training. But so That's the first thing we want to train people and we want to train ourselves like we fight. We want to mimic the real world examples Second thing is reward your training partners now. I know I've made some fun about you know saying no to my daughter a lot This was actually a day where and I this is actually a good example because When you're when you're playing against a child, how do you judge that they've won? And here's how I do it and you guys can take this if it works and you can use it in other situations So if she asked me something and I moved to do it before I think about what I just did She won because really in a real world example, that's all it's going to take is me not thinking before I make an action um She actually got me to do something in a mall Not the elsa dress She she got I can't remember exactly what it was But as soon as I realized what she was done I'd actually taken a step and then realized and I turned around I was like Very good And then she said can I have a cookie and I said yes, you can so Eating her cookie very happy about life So I will say there is one once again an exception to this Oh, and I should point out, you know, we had three sets of good guys We have Children and other people around us because really since we're all being manipulated all the time adults count too Right. We're all manipulating people at some level. It's usually benign Um depending on the person But for pets, we want to um, you know, we can get away pretty easily with them. We just put them They're pretty happy with that. We feed them keep loving them Cats they may love you back You know dogs. They're awesome. They'll do anything um So that's basically how we take care of that the exception is marketing and advertising people These guys get paid They're already getting enough encouragement do not encourage them They don't need any extra encouragement um, trust me And so take any once again advertising who I put kind of on the fence, you know, they're motivated most times by good But sometimes they go off the deep end. We got to remember what we're actually training for Because while this is all fun and games and and I like, you know, and I like games We have to remember what we're what we're actually training for and it's not the guy in the full tactical hoodie with the laptop And the computer with three monitors It's it's the people who look like the rest of us. It's the you know, the guys who are going to be very subtle It's the advertisers who are well funded um And so with that in mind remember we're in vegas right now You are in the midst of one of the most well oiled machines to get you to do things You're being manipulated 24 hours a day because I actually have had really weird dreams while I've been here So I'm pretty sure there's something happening there um, maybe not for the rest of you, but maybe for me And um, you know when you're walking around everything from the toms that the slot machines make to the flashing lights Everything is designed to get you to do something that you may not want to do You're also at def con I mean, we're we're in the perfect training ground right now and I hate to hate to tell you guys I have a bit of head start because I've been playing this game with my daughter for like six months. So Well ahead So just remember the attackers are going to apply constant pressure They are going to create urgency They are going to have answers for all of the things that you're going to try to do They are well funded. They are well researched And they're going to be much more subtle than my daughter who is the bull in the china shop So with that Are there any questions? Thank you Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I that's what's funny is I've heard that every time I'm running to when I When I've told somebody this this theory and they had they have a child They're like man wait until they're teenagers Yeah, and then I mean I so I do have to say that I I found out and it's actually fun for me that we have a Second coming on the way in february and so now I'm going to have to play, you know double duty and two So it's going to be a lot more fun. We've got to wait another three years But then I'll have one that's like seven and one that's six. Yes, sir I actually have a question and a comment So I'm in the same boat as you but at what point did you decide that when your Daughter was screaming in pain and crying that you should snap a picture for a talk So funny story while I was dealing with the situation my wife thought it would be funny to snap the picture So I just took advantage of it. Um, that was her first haircut. We went there and um And you know one of us would be taking pictures of the event the other one would be talking to our daughter So I lodged you because I do the same thing all the time. So yeah, thank you for making me feel normal Yeah, yeah when I and I have you know There have been times where she has done something and she's being I've started to tear up and I'm like snap One day when you're dating and I shall bring this out So yeah, I mean and that's the thing is remember that, you know, it's a game have fun with it play around with it and You know go out and have fun Cool. I was going to say there's no more questions. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to stand up and speak Oh sweet. Yes, sir Yeah Yeah That's that's why I'm very happy about that. Yes, sir Yeah, yeah, hopefully I like I said, I'm I'm very I'm very much more aware I think of the biological thing that I want the noise to stop my wife You know, she's a very good mom So I'm not trying to make fun of her but she she's much better at the you know I'm gonna cry for about another minute and see how that works out and I'm I'm the one over there going Okay, has it been a minute, you know, it's and she's like it's been five seconds You need to like just put on headphones or something because you're you're you're crazy Thank you