 Good afternoon, everyone. Where are you from, place and afternoon? That won't last long, I guarantee you. I'm just going to wait. Hi, hi. Good afternoon. So I'm Jeremy for any of those of you that I have with that, which is none of you. And I'm really happy to have you join us this afternoon for this panel discussion. Every year at the Playwright Center, I pay me and I spend time thinking a lot about who the staff, what exactly do we want to talk about right now? Sometimes those issues are bigger, national field issues. Sometimes they're very specific play development. Last year, given the weight of how much diversity there is in the field with theater making, our conversation in the middle of our 40th anniversary season was, what is a playwright anymore? Because there's so many different approaches to how theater making is happening, how writing, how theater writing is happening, and that. And it was a really exciting conversation. Each year we kind of try to embrace both folks that are with us here locally who come into the festival to put together a conversation. And this year we have an incredible group of people that I'm thrilled to be able to introduce folks in this development. When we think about theater making here, we every day sort of have to check our film, check in with, if you were going to have that sort of fantasy dinner party, with who you would want to have as part of that conversation. And it wasn't 25 people, it was only five or six people, who would that be? And so I'm really thrilled to welcome this incredible panel of people here today, both writers and directors and theater makers and producers and folks who have done all of it. And I think, for us here at the Clarence Center, we personally, in the experience of that kind of new play development over the last few years in particular, they've really ranged from some really incredibly positive experiences where the player is at the center of it and their voice was heard and they sort of led the conversation. They were completely letting out what they wanted and what they needed as part of that development moment and what their goals were for the end. And of course, sometimes you don't know your goals for the end. Sometimes your general goals may shift as you go. But it's also been in some experiences and then actually in the past where sometimes the discussion is so prescriptive and so critical that it actually has left the playwright out of the conversation. And conversely, I've been in other people's development situations where sometimes the conversation is so tepid and so watered down that I'm not sure that if there was a goal to make the play better at the end of that process, that we actually really got to that place because there was such a care given. And in some ways, I think, as I've heard in my play, I talk about a lack of trust that I as a playwright can actually handle a certain conversation in this frame of play. And so that's a lot of what we want to kind of talk about today which we will dive into momentarily. I'm super thrilled to have Haley as one of my greatest colleagues ever here at the Playwright Center. Haley Fitnessman, who is our associate producer, has been with the Center for over six years on and off and probably even a little longer than that as a feelings director. And so to have someone who has been both as a director, ambassador, advocate, producer, and sort of emissary for writers in all of that kind of conversations, I'm moderating this discussion today. I'm really thrilled. So if you would just help me welcome and thank Haley for her producer. I will also mention that there is a large beautiful face here joining us today among all these beautiful faces. That is our writer, Marques Gardley. Hello, Marques, how are you doing? I'm good to yourself. I'm good. It's good to see you're an incredibly beautiful large face. We're so happy to have Marques. You know, Marques has been part of so many conversations that I've also learned from over the last few years that we just wanted to make sure we have it here. Knowing that he wasn't going to be able to be here for the festival, we wanted to find a way to actually be able to engage with him here. So thanks to the McKnight Foundation, we were able to purchase and implement new medium-competent technology along with some projection equipment. Great. What about you? Well, I am so happy to hear you say that it was hard to think of an example because I now feel more comfortable saying the same. You know, I think... I can't think of an exact example of a moment where a particular question was something really sparked a response, but in thinking more broadly about what has really taught me something that I'm working on, I feel as though the feeling in the room often tells me a lot. Something that tells you about the life that's in it that is looking for a way to grow. The more conscious the questions or the more conscious the direction of the feedback, the less useful I've tended to find it because I feel like I'm onto what I can be consciously and then there's this other thing trying to come to life underneath that. Great. Marcus, what about you? Yes, I think the best feedback I ever got on a play was when I didn't get any feedback at all, actually. I was taking a course from a playwright mentor of mine and I brought in half the play to him and he read the play and then we met to talk about the play and I was hoping he was going to say it was brilliant and he said the same thing. And so I said, well, what do you think of the play? He said, well, what do you think of the play? And I said, well, I think it's brilliant. He says, oh, okay. And then he said, well, what questions do you have about the play? And so I had a series of questions and things that I was trying to work on. He said, well, go back and try to answer those questions. So I went back and tried to answer the questions and then I thought, okay, now it's brilliant for sure. And I gave it to him and he read it and I said, well, it's brilliant, right? He says, is it? And I said, well, yeah, I was young. He said, a good playwright knows going into the room for a feedback session what they want to work on. So that when people ask questions that don't have to do anything with what they're at or what they're ready to work on, they can just shut that down or ignore it. And that way you're always in control of the destination of the play. And he said, if you want to take this course, because you want to know what I think of your work, guess what, I like your work. So we can just get that out of the room. He said, but you need to know what you need to work on. So you're always in control of where the story is headed. It was the greatest advice I think I've ever gotten, the greatest feedback. And in the end, he produced the play, so I think he liked it. It was the greatest experience. Thank you. Lisa? Yeah, I also had a hard time with this question for some reason and maybe because my work is devising, I'm a partner with the playwright in the making of the work. So my ass is on the line in a very similar way to the playwrights. I need a sense of what's honest truth, but also telling me where something's alive. When I can say to them, boy, that's alive right there. I feel it. It's exciting. Point to what's giving me energy. Rather than what's not, they blossom. You know, they're insecure creatures. We all are. We're all wanting to hear the ways that our work is living. And I think for me, that's what I found with playwrights. There's very little critique or complaint. You know, there's nothing negative in the room. It's all about where it's going that's positive. And because I need that as a maker and an artist, I really feel protective of that process with playwrights. I have one funny story. When I was really young, my first company was performing at the, and I swear to God, this is a real thing, the Lucille Ball Festival of Comedy in Jamestown, New York. Anyway, HBO produces big thing. And I was part of the lineup with Alan Ball's company, Alarm Dog Rap, my company, Sleepless Theater, and Lou Black. We were the late night political scary comedy that got done in the basement of the Holiday Inn at 11.30 at night. And we were, my company, we were in our 20s. We were young and brilliant. Like Marcus's supply was brilliant. And we had a piece we were doing that involved gender politics with a cucumber. I mean, I won't go into it, but there was a cucumber involved. It was totally rude. And Lou Black, Lou Black came to us backstage and said, you know, you really do have to cut the cucumber. You can't do the cucumber. And I was like, why not? He goes, because your audience is like, it's wrong. You can't do it right now. And I said, you know, I was like, no, we're going to do the cucumber. And it was a complete failure. So I remember to sort of listen to my elders. He was smarter than me. He had been down that road longer than I had. And so for me, I take, who's talking to me into account in a huge, hugely, one of my students? Eh, okay. I do care what they think. I think they're really wise. They have a lot to say. But, you know, Jeremy Cohen or anyone in this room probably has a different way for me. So that's just my perception. Positive, positive, positive. Okay. What about for you, Marion? Got one instance for being a playwright and the other one for when I'm directing. When I'm directing, I think the thing that I said that makes the most difference in the rehearsal is that I tell the playwright I want them in the rehearsal room and present. You know, that be part of what we're doing. I don't want them to go home and, you know, watch TV or work on another play. I want them in the room, ask stuff that's happening because questions are going to come up, questions are going to arise. And it's great to have the writer in the room because I get, well, he wrote it, so let's go to him or her. So making sure that the playwright is in the room throughout the rehearsal and very active is I think the thing that I do best as a director with open new work. And as a playwright, I go along and say, you know, there's maybe six or seven people that I take my work to or ask them to be in the room when I'm working on it and ask them for their straight-up dope on it. And they're good enough friends to tell me the truth. You know, I want the truth. To be padded and told something is brilliant if in truth it's, you know, halfway understandable. You know, my son is probably my best consigliere. He will be very sharp with me. You know, at one point I remember him going, I asked him, what do you think of the play? And he said, the Lost Boys. And I went, this play might be Peter Pan. And he said, I don't know about that. And he said, no, no, no, no, no. He said, so many people get lost when they're in your play. You know, he says, we really want to know what's going on. We really, you know, come in with the expressed purpose of enjoying it and you lose us. So you need to look at where you lose people and whether or not that's something you want to do. And I said, if you want to do it, then you're fine. You know, because I get lost in your play. He says, but if you don't want to do it, you need to go back and look at what your intentions are. You know, and get back to that core that it made you get up in the morning at four o'clock and start writing it. So those are kind of the two things that, especially as a director, making sure that the playwright's voice is in the room as stuff is getting decided, as stuff is getting worked on and whatnot. When there's questions from me or from actors, you know, I like the designers to be in the room. I love to get as many people in the room that I respect as possible. You know, that's like critics don't bother me because if I respected their opinion, I'd have them in the room. And I can't remember really asking one of them to be in the room. And the other one, you know, to be aware of when people get lost in my plays, but when I am getting lost in my play, when I'm getting lost in a language or a major or a certain sidetrack scene, you know, it's the half people that will point that out to me, you know, in no uncertain terms. Thank you. My son, he was 15 at that time. It's a natural job, but that's critical. My son, he grew up in the rehearsal hall room with me in August, you know, and he was given August notes when he was eight, so. That's great. Thank you. What about for you, Mickey? I want to start by saying I really don't know. But there are some things that I could tell you. For instance, there is a story that goes like that. Somewhere in the world, an elephant is followed by a mouse, and they walk on a bridge, and the mouse is saying to the elephant, do you hear the noise we are making? The drama talk is sort of like the mouse. That's number one, number two. And we read you something by a poet I admire and I appreciate very much, John Ashberg. I don't know if I'm going to read it all, but anyhow, let me try. I try your patience. It's called Paradoxes and Oxymorons, and I think he wrote it in 1980. This poem is concerned with language on a very plain level. Look at it, talk into it. You look out a window or pretend to fidget. You have it, but you don't have it. You miss it. It misses you. You miss each other. The poem is sad because it wants to be yours and cannot do that. What's a plain level? It is that other things bringing a system of them into play. Play? Well, actually yes, but I consider play to be a deeper outside thing. A dream-drawn pattern. As in the Division of Grace, this long, august days without food. Open-ended. And before you know it gets lost in the steam and chatter of typewriters. It has been played once more. I think you exist only to tease me into doing it on your level, and then you aren't here or have adopted a different attitude. The poem has set me softly down beside you. The poem is you. So I think that's all I have to say. Thank you. So I use pop-ups. It's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that with us. The next question I had is, has to do with the audience. So I knew we always talk about wanting plays to be relevant to an audience, and so we're starting to ask questions about when the audience should be involved in the process. And Marcus is working on a very interesting project right now that I would love him to share with us a little bit about this project he's working on with the LARC on his play. Marcus, would you tell us a little bit about this? Can you hear me now? We can hear you now. There's a program called LPN, which stands for Launching Plays. Launching LNP. Launching new plays into the repertoire. And it's a program with the LARC Foundation in which they help produce a play, four productions of a play across the country. So the first play, right, I think, Aloisa America Wonko was the first play, and then I'm the second play in this cycle. And so I have this play, The Role of the Rare One Strive, which is a second installation in the trilogy. And it's going to have four productions starting in March in Alaska at First Experience Theater. Then it goes to LA at LAPC. And then in the lovely city of Minneapolis, Post Bear House, and then Florida. We do it at University of Southern Florida. And so this is also kind of an experiment, and what we wanted to do was we wanted to engage the audience as we made the play, not the writing part, but as we talked about who our collaborators would be, how we were going to market the play. And we wanted to do this so that audiences like they were in on the groundbreaking process. They were in on the foundation of why this theater, what kind of work does this theater do, and how can this play speak to their community. And so there's three major stages. The first stage is I go, we do a reading of the play, and we have the audience give us feedback about the play and about what things arise out of the play that relate to that particular community. And then the second stage is where I go and do a community workshop. And in the third stage is obviously the production. And so this has been something very unique for me. I've never done anything like this before, but I've always been interested in what audiences thought about the play outside of the context of, well, rewrite this or I don't like that. I'm not actually interested in that part. I'm more interested in how the play relates to them personally and how it relates to their community. So there's three major themes that we've hit, which is spirituality, migration, and history and our education. And so we have community members talk about those things. We've had responses that have been very provocative, one in which the audiences wanted to protest the play because some of the themes in the play. And then we've had other instances where one audience member actually brought sage for everyone to the very give a blessing for the play. So it's been a very diverse response to the play. And what it has caused me to do is write, change a little bit of the play for each production. So that's certain things that stood out for that community that I'm addressing in the play, stand out even more. And it's something that I'm actually very interested in now because of this program. And Marcus, I'm just wondering because I know you have this conversation at Pillsbury House Theater here in Minneapolis. Just curious to know if at all anything changed after that conversation that you had with people? Well, you know, some of the feedback that I got from two artists from the Native American community was that they felt like the play was not a... Native American or even a Native American slash African-American play. They felt like the play was an African-American play. And I took that to heart. I think... I don't know if plays can have a nationality or a race. I think what I'm hoping is that the story is a universal story. That's my goal. And so what I want to do is actually engage audiences who might try to categorize the play and try to push those... Like Carol Walker talks about these centers that we have, these centers of both antagonizing centers are impulses that we have that makes us feel uncomfortable. But if we actually push through to those uncomfortability, those impulses that we have, there may be a discovery. So I actually want to talk about those things instead of the play being put in the category. I'm interested in actually engaging those... That discomfort that the play may arise, not to offend people, but to have a broader, more deeper discussion about these things if that makes sense. Thank you. And I know, Christine, your piece that you've been working on, dealing with veterans, is really different in terms of the project. You're not going from community to community. And yet you've been engaging communities. Could you talk a little bit about your project? Sure. So I'm working on a piece called You Are Dead, You Are Here at the moment, which is a collaboration with a video designer and a director that's inspired by the use of video game technology in the training and rehabilitation of soldiers. So that kind of started out with a fascination with the technology. And it's just been a really different way of going about making a work because it started from, you know, a really tiny commission to make a piece that engaged video technology in some way. And for me, the question was, well, why does it have to have video? You know, I really... I didn't want it to be sort of bells and whistles. And then I found out about the use of these technologies in training and rehabilitation of soldiers. And for me, that was very exciting because there's a lot of sort of sharp ethical questions in that for me. The idea of using simulation to recover from real warfare. And, you know, my question is kind of the obvious corpus questions, which is showing me the bodies, what happens to the bodies when you're using. So that was very interesting to me and it sort of answered my question of why does it have to have this technology and it's making. And then the process of making it put me in a situation with my collaborators where I couldn't just do it on my own. You know, we had to sort of look at the technology and the way that it was being used. So Virtually Rock is a program modeled on Full Spectrum Warrior, a video game that's now used in the rehabilitation of veterans that come back from Iraq with PTSD. It's used in therapy. It's like a video game where the veteran puts on these immersive goggles and is sent back into animated landscapes of Iraq that are then rebuilt in conversation with the therapist based on their memories. So there was sort of a collision point with a lot of communities that I know nothing about to build this piece. And it took us to military hospitals. It took us into conversations with veterans. And so we've been building this thing from the inside out. One of the things about that process in terms of its relationship eventually to audiences and programming is that it was a really exciting way to start working which was to be with two other artists and going, we're going to do this thing. Whether or not any theater comes along and picks it up, we're not going to start in that passive place of, oh, submit my work, be interested in me. We're going to start from, we really want to do this. How are we going to do it? And we started from that nucleus and then we started moving outwards to find the people that we needed and find the resources that we needed and to understand how this technology worked. And in the process we found that we were starting to have conversations that were very live. So coming back to this first question about feedback too, when we did early readings of this piece, we had some veterans come and sit and watch this piece. And it's not soldier hagiography. There's a story about this African American veteran who comes back with PTSD from the war in a conversation with a white therapist for this programming. But the other character in my play is a girl blogging from Fallujah. So the idea is that their interface is through this virtual technology that was actually engaged and so it's not a piece that only looks at what happens to veterans. It's also saying there's this massive civilian damage in Iraq and that's very important to me. So it was nerve-wrapping to show this to veterans, you know. But the thing that told me that there was life there and that really made me want to keep going was that they all wanted to stay and tell us stories afterwards. So it wasn't about what are you doing in your piece. It was about, no, actually this happened here and you know you had to decide whether to shoot a 10-year-old boy on the street when you saw him pick up a cell phone. So things like this people were just dying to talk to us about these things and I think that you have a feeling in the room of respect when you're going for the truth. Even if you fail at going for the truth, I feel like the danger of trying to do something that is true and not in the documentary representing other people's experience sense of true but in the sense of following that hard line towards something that you want to find. That brings that brings the kind of collision and the intensity that Marcus is talking about with those audiences into the conversation. So it's been a huge education for me in terms of trusting that. Just to ask you a question who is moderating those conversations and how are they facilitated? Oh, well so we've been guests at a few different places. The director Joseph Meagle is based at UNC Chapel Hill. So our very first outing was for a festival called Collaborations in Arts and Humanities and we invited friends and people that were around in the military and in video game communities to come into our early readings and since then we've also been at the ART with their graduate program and then at Georgetown and we're now resident artists here at New York. But we're just doing a lot of outreach through military connections on our own as well. KJ Sanchez has been helping us to meet people. We work with students at Georgetown who had cousins and brothers who were in the military and they took us out to Walter Reed. The guy who designed virtual Iraq has become a friend and a collaborator and he's given us the software to use and he's introduced us to therapists and people at Walter Reed. So kind of growing network and through help from universities and here we've been able to reach people and then kind of move out that way. It's terrific and it's certainly a play in a specific project but I'm also wondering maybe this Jim's question for you what it would be like in New York City which is a very different kind of community and perhaps a different type of play that you produce that don't always that aren't really as community specific I'm just wondering if what your process is in inviting the audience and if at all through this process or what audience the role of the audience for you Jim Oh yes Jim, yeah I was just I got your speaking question Yeah I was just saying for you Jim I was just saying the other the project that you're doing in New York Theater Workshop is so different from that sort of work that Christina as an artist sort of going out there producing her own work where it is a place to come to you you do help develop them but you also produce the play just wanting your perspective as a producer where do you feel the audience's places in the development process Well this is something we're thinking a lot about right now because in talking to you have a sort of loyal die-hard group of followers and the more that they can get their hands on a process the more they like it and the more they just sitting in the theater seeing the play experiencing the vision of the artist that way isn't enough for them so we're really in the middle of trying to figure this out what do you how do you give them I think it's a good thing that they're interested in the process of an artist because I believe that a major purpose for a theater company to live in a community is not just to give them the product but to remind the community that the product is really actually the process of imagination at work and how do we connect and that was always moving to me about the original conceiving of the regional theater was and I was around for that and remember the excitement I felt when Hartford Stage was announced on the front page of the Hartford Current is coming into existence and their angle was there will be artists living with us making work amongst us for us and I think one of the problems I think in the regional theater is that they haven't actually pursued that particular angle as intensely as they might have the actual engagement with the creative process the life of an artist the life of a poet I mean they're artists I think they're the shamans the priests of our secular lives and we haven't succeeded so that's the angle I'm trying to pursue is how do we make how do we get that to happen without disrupting the creative process without twisting it or distending it I'm starting to have some conversations with some individual artists about what they think about this but nothing is conclusive right now but I think it's a really this is a major thing about how the theater is going to survive and go forward into the 21st century is getting to this point what is the experience of art beyond just being in the presence of the finished play or the finished thing how do we get the artist and how they live and think and breathe without compromising it or twisting it in some way influencing it to how do we bring that together and do you think that from some of the ideas that you're coming up with is that to have them involved during the process of creation or is it about sharing the process with them after the play is already up on speed I don't know what it is that they're hungry for yet I mean I think the next when we stop a little further down the conversation with artists I think it's then conversation with well what exactly is it you're looking for as an audience member or as a someone who appreciates the artist what more do you want to know and I know it's not to talk back up to the show it's not you know a fire site we do these fire site chats which are somewhere early in the process of rehearsal in the rehearsal room and that seems to be really critical what is the fire site chat item someone talks to people involved in the process of making this play at hand and you know chat about what's going on nothing you know that we aren't all very familiar with but there's something about being in the room the rehearsal room that's very exciting and intoxicating to the audience members so I don't know I mean it's talking at the moment we're still at the very beginning of this consideration so maybe later we can check in on that yeah I would love to I love what Christine said earlier about that when she shared the process with veterans they had their stories to tell and they were dying to tell them I think it's not just about what do the current theater audiences want more of but also how do we get other people that might not think of the theater as a place now that the theater and art can be at the center of cultural dialogue and healing stopping the polarization and all the crap that's going on not the entertainment lane but the center of it serious art going on that doesn't mean one kind of art it just means it's valid enough of a form that it should be at the middle of our society involving people in the creation of it and in the watching of it and not again like Jim's saying here's some plays for you to come and see when you're taking a break from real life which is fine too there's nothing wrong with that but I agree that the regional theater unfortunately in some ways it's moved in that direction rather than the other and I think there's a hunger right now in the country for this and this kind of explains what you're experiencing with your audience I certainly feel it with mine we have a lot of contact with Russian immigrants here because our work is bilingual and works across cultures a lot and yeah they're dying to be a part of it they're not artists themselves but they understand that art isn't just a frill they want it at this and for Russians they really understand that because they live through it in Russia where you know the theaters are packed and it's because it's the one place you can see the truth so I think yeah I love what you're saying that you're working and I just love this I just wanted to go back to what Christine said that they hearing the artist talk made them have their stories come up that is such a beautiful rave review of a process great thank you these are moments where it seems like the audience is deeply invested in the process I think a lot of theaters also have talk backs which happen either during the development process which I know many of you have experienced or afterwards when the piece is up on its feet and we as a field I think are recognizing that a lot of this is for audience development and perhaps less important to the playwright him or herself but I'm just wondering what this panel thinks about the notion of talk backs either during the development process or post-show conversations and is there any value and if there is value what form should they take does anyone want to speak on this? I don't think I've ever met an artist who isn't anxious to engage with the audience outside of the work I think I have met many who are not necessarily willing to hear the audience's opinion on how to fix the play or the production so I think they try to be well-autorated that's the area to find I feel in general this again I feel at our theater other theaters I've been to this area of how to expand or enlarge the experience for the audience beyond the play in and of itself it's so hard to pull that off in and of itself to give them more because they're hungry for it we're not providing that in an interesting way where I'm speaking for us we're doing a very routine this is the design idea in conversation with the designers a little bit with the director of the playwright and you know people stay for 15, 20, 30 minutes and then they want to get home it doesn't feel to me in any way satisfying what those people who did stay are looking for and do the playwrights are they involved in that process? I mean we leave it up to them but most of them we try to avoid in previews we really try to we do much more aggressive structuring of the conversation and moderating the conversation and leaving questions to a minimum and after we're open and things are finished and where we're breathing a little easier all of us involved a little bit more relaxed and again I think that's what we've come up with is the way to try and stop how to fix the play things but for determined audience members even that doesn't do it but it doesn't feel good it feels like a band-aid I wonder I mean as a playwright I fundamentally love talk-backs and it's not because I don't want to talk to an audience I really do but I wonder sometimes about whether some of the involvement in the conversation could be more about curating on the front end rather than you've just had an experience tell us what you think of it on the back end I'm thinking about as an audience member that what I really love in the theatre is being in the dream of the play and if all of the aesthetic elements of the thing have really been working I'm transported into something that I couldn't put into a rational thesis right after it and the less that's true the more I could probably do a summation of the narrative and a point kind of thing so there's something about the aesthetic experience that doesn't flip quickly into a critical conversation afterwards but I'm also wondering about whether there's a front end way of inviting people into the dreaming of the play I did a workshop with Cutting Bowl Theatre in San Francisco one time they do a festival called risk is this where they invite artists to do a week's workshop and to do some design elements and as with here they say the playwright is the artistic director so I said I do not want to do talk backs but I want to figure out another way of engaging with an audience and so what we decided to do was to really do a design presentation and a conversation before the piece where we spoke before the reading about what we were going for and what our experiments were and here were some of the things we were looking at and some of the things we were talking about in the room and then we said if anyone wants to have a glass of wine with us in the foyer afterwards and have a chat so we did that instead of a talk back but the director and I and the designer talked and showed some things before the reading and you know we said and we're still really unsure and nervous about X and Y and here's some things we're going for and so we sort of had a conversation beforehand and then a chat and a glass of wine afterwards and it's not like that was perfect but it made me think that maybe there is a way of curating and bringing people into a conversation saying here's what we're going for and bam now here it is so that there's those two things can be in dialogue and then my last thought on that is that I think this question of how you engage the audience is tied to an idea which I think is really problematic and that idea is that new plays are a genre they're not all new work is different in some way but somehow the marketing of it just because a living writer is writing something at the moment as a new play is a certain kind of category and in fact I think plays are always in dialogue with the past and with other aesthetics and other artists and perhaps there's a way of building seasons that have one play a current play by a living writer that's in dialogue with a particular play by Shakespeare or you know maybe Marcus has his three artists that are really inspirational to him in one historical event and maybe there's a longer curating track that puts the work in the context of who the artist is in dialogue rather than the concept of product and new work that might be interesting why I bring you here I'd love to put this question to Marion and to Marcus and I know you guys have worked together as playwright director before recently actually in a workshop just what is that relationship between the director and the playwright and do you ever give feedback to the writer what are you looking for in that collaboration do you have any thoughts well you know I think like the case of a work with Marion it's very much a marriage I feel like it's a strong bond that you have and what's great about Marion because he's a playwright as well he is very protective of the writer in the room and and so I never for a moment feel like he when he makes choices I never feel like he has to go through me because he'll make a choice and he'll know of this instinct and then he'll come and check it with me about it and it's a really I love that so he's free to create or to discover and then in the process I know that he's always going to check it so what do you think about that that choice and it's always just so much fun because a lot of times directors they're too intimidated by having a playwright in the room or they feel like they just can't they can't make any choices with without you know being judged and so it's great to have tonight who's also you know works like a jazz musician and he just goes to there and works and then he checks in he's very exhausted he says is this the right music that you want in your piece and it's exciting it's very exciting and I also want to respond to this talk back question and then of course I'm going to have to leave but I think talk backs and after reading post play reading talk backs I think they're they can be dangerous I really love talk backs after production because then the audience can see the full dimension of the play plays are meant to be performed not read and I love that and I especially love when I had a really good opportunity of watching a friend of mine play and the audience was really confused after the first act and I was sitting and here's some incredible people in their golden years and we were talking they had a lot of questions about the play because it's about the internet and I had a really really powerful discussion with them they talked me something I thought I'd talk to them and do things about the play and then after the play because we had our own talk back we went and had coffee to talk about questions about the play so much about I think the theater is we try and answer issues and what would it be like if we looked we looked for the questions what are the questions that the play is arising and try to figure out the answers amongst ourselves I think a lot of times the playwright is not trying to answer a question they're raising the question and I think that's a really interesting way of looking at art. Yeah I think that's an excellent point and it kind of goes back to what you were saying Jim about really the art of the question and that's maybe something that we need to think about you know it's really that art and spending some more time around how we ask questions or what the questions are and maybe the answers are less important than the questions That's great. Well thank you Marcus we'll let you go because I know you have to go off and direct a play Thank you so much for having me. It's nice to see you. Thank you so much brother. Bye. Mary I just want you to get a chance to answer this question about the director's relationship and I know especially with August Wilson and a lot of the development of those plays as well and just what that process is of working with the playwright either with August Wilson or Marcus Gardley when you're actually giving feedback to the playwright about what you're seeing Well it's really important to know how to give the feedback to the writer so that it's beneficial to them in the working on of the play I find as a director especially if new work that I really have to keep my ego out of the room because it's about so many things that have to do with it and for me the most important relationship that I have to cultivate in that room is between the actors and the playwright they're the musicians that are going to be performing the song so they should get to know the songwriter and why the song was written so that they can do their work of delving deeper into the piece it doesn't look good for them to delve into the piece that they don't know what the piece is about or they don't know what's intended by the piece so I feel I should have to keep my ego out of the room excuse me so that I can help find those questions that will drive the play also I'm going to take on a little bit with Marcus as far as talking about talk backs back in the day here we used to have Monday night readings where there were talk backs afterwards and in the beginning of that there was better beneficial because the audience knew they were seeing a complete play so they had questions about the play and those questions could help the writer go back and look at his play but it wound up becoming after a while it was like a professional talk back there were people there that came to all the readings and the reading to talk about was more about them than it was about the play in that case it's a playwright sometimes when someone says what I'd like to see in this play I don't know that sounds interesting why don't you write but that's not what I'm doing that's not what I'm intending to hear so that sounds good write the play but can we please get back to this one I think that you have better talk backs when the play is done one I like going to those talk backs because the questions seem to be better and not so much about how I would do the play and do you think they're better because of the framework of the fact that this play is done or better because the questions are actually framed better in that I think because the play is done that their questions can become framed better because a lot of people after a while at the talk backs didn't look at the plays as far as being in process it looked at the plays as far as them being done I said well I didn't get this I didn't get this and then I said well yeah I understand but what about the questions to play racist those are the things and the answers those questions can be helpful in guiding the work it's all about what helps the work it's all about what helps you when you get back into the room and I try to keep as many people flowing in and out of the room so that we are getting fresh takes on it trying to encourage the artistic director to come in periodically so I can get their senses as we're creating where it's more helpful than sometimes sitting what I call the firing squad after the first run through take your blindfold and have your last of it take the bullets so you're having the people who are invested in the process really be part of the process rather than presenting they have a love for the work or else they wouldn't be doing it they have a connection to it or else they wouldn't be doing it so let's get what that connection is about what we're working on it's always better for me to get those comments in the time of working on the play to be the best time to work on it is better than after the first run through and when that stuff is starting to solidify inside of there then sometimes it feels interrupted but if I get them in earlier come on in and most artists like to come on in at the time so it's getting people coming in getting their feedback as we're working and so stuff I can converse with the playwright but the most important thing in the room for me is for the playwright and the actors to get a bottom for the actors to know what the intentions are and just play it for them to go after that full force okay so now is the opportunity to open it up to you guys and if you have any questions for these brilliant artists, artistic directors dramaturgs love to see me in questions yes I have a question for the playwrights in the room have you ever intentionally or unintentionally written yourself into a character and then if you see and get this as one of that character then but that's like the first problem that I usually run into as a writer is that after a while everybody talks like me and has my ideas and has my ethics and that can be fun for me to watch but I think it gets rather boring to the audience if there's no movement on the questions so I feel that I have to go back and really start to learn who these play who these characters are get them to talk to me I used to say when writer said my characters talk to me yeah okay but in truth you have to get them to do that so that you can write them and not you I think it's always going to be a little bit of a writer in the characters just because it's part of why we write is to get our ideas out there or to ask questions that we really feel need to be asked but it becomes a strict process for me to go back in there and make it sure I'm having the character ask that question and the character just be a vessel for me to say all the stuff I believe in you know to really get to learn the story that I intended really get to learn who the people are I think it's one of the hardest things the most important thing I have to do as a writer what about for you Christine do you ever come across that problem of putting yourself in the play and then feeling that that character is speaking your words rather than the character's words I don't feel that people like me as a person are ever in my place because it's not my impulse but I think for me the way that I connect to your question is this idea of am I over controlling my play and making my characters be puppets for my opinions you know the playwright Eric N said something that really stuck in my mind as great advice which is follow your writing don't make your writing follow you you know and I think there is this thing about finding the specific and having letting go of the desire to make the play a shiny reflection of what would make me look clever you know to let the voices start to have their own autonomy and take me somewhere you know and I mean I think about this question of voice and what is a playwright's voice and kind of where I'm up to at the moment with that is I think that voice is to do with your sense of pattern in the world you know that our minds are a pattern making machines and that's how I experience poetry and to me a playwright's voice is about rhythm and pattern and following the way that that echoes in the world you know and but for me learning to follow rather than impose is the trick so I don't know if that's quite your question but that's how I struggle with my domination over the play rather than listening to the work and trying to be a vessel for it thank you any other questions yes oh that way we can all hear you great for the playwright's in the room I'm curious how do you empower yourself to have the dialogue that you need to frame the discussion and the feedback what do you do to enable that knowing that you work in different places and different institutions all the time what are some of the tools that you have to get what you need and so here look and attempt the comment oh sure please I think that if the playwright doesn't have one's own power no one can empower the playwright the playwright is a centerpiece yes so all of us are like I don't know there's a scaffolding around the building and we go around and talk about the building that's not ready but we look at the scaffolding and talk about how insufficient something is in the building right but for the playwrights who are often put in situations where they are in these sort of I think like you're saying that you are asked to be in talkback situations or you are asked to be in feedback sessions are there ways that you can frame the question to sort of empower yourself to get what you need out of the experience I'm sorry I have not finished oh I'm so sorry unfortunately most of those who go through the channels to see their plays their phone have to go through this process in which experts like me they say tell you how the play should be and I resent that I think you should know how the play should be unfortunately it's an S2A it's not a delta and everybody tries to get through the best options in order to see the play that it's not a new one what I'm saying long ago I was thinking that the GUSSY should have a relationship with the playwright center how many walks that the playwright center has developed helped develop ended up on the GUSSY stage you can count them any and then they come and say it's a big GUSSY it's a big blue GUSSY okay kind of going back to the I think that's an interesting point in terms of you're saying oh yes I just want to follow up just so that one of the playwrights well actually you are a playwright so maybe you would like to answer this question the question that Megan was putting forward about just how you can create your own framework for those conversations so that you can get what you want out of the experience but I think it's I go back to what Michael said I mean that's really not a way to resolve a problem because it's generic playwright what I mean it's as individual as a person how one traverses these kinds of situations the question is how do we alter the power relationship and probably we can't do that how do we have to change the culture period I mean it's just like what Marilyn said this is this sort of insane expectation that people who are working for 8 hours a week can come into the theater and have a playwright who does 24-7 how we should fix their plans that's just dishonest that is giving them more responsibility than they really need to have how do we solve problems I mean well you know what Marcus said about the playwright asking the question what is the question I think when coming to these rules we don't even really know how to ask these questions we say things like how does someone who is not empowered becomes empowered that doesn't happen with nice conversations but we get power by taking right so you know it's not a nice it's not a really resolvable situation unless we find a way to ask the critical questions without accepting the circumstances which oppress us but I feel like you do by putting collaborators in the room that you really respect you know and that you are able to create that conversation with those writers that you've had long-term relationships with we try to step out of the system we try to eliminate anything that doesn't have anything to do with making the art when we go to a theater and have to do these things ask them and never get the answer have you considered whether this is audience development or play development alright and then when you ask that question and people look at you like a big woman in a wrist watch you know what I mean go on to mention you know what I mean no one answers the question you know and it creates an atmosphere when we come to the institution where there is no curiosity no discussion you are continually assumed as it's a system you know it sort of works easy and there is no room for individuals to have human beings in the system when we work together that makes the art efficient and makes the best use of our research thank you for sharing other questions yes it looks like we have a question being tweeted yes we have a question from twitter what does the panel think of the impact of social media and live online workshops on the development of new work is it less personal that's very apropos who would like to respond to that I recently made a couple of pieces that involved designers from the very beginning and actors from the very beginning and playwrights from the very beginning and even scholars from the very beginning so they were all in the room together but several of my extremely talented designers live in other states and I didn't want, I don't have the funds to my company that is not the big big city you can't bring people in for everything we set up a lot of innovative ways of staying in communication and literally being in the room together that I was completely suspicious of because I'm not of the generation that gets that intuitively but it was fantastic and I got to have a real respect for how that can bring people together so I was able to have my designers kind of in the room with me to remarkable to remarkable levels of proficiency even that I was a part of, when I was at Yale one of the early hookups to Russia we had combined rehearsals on this minor whole project it was this really big deal because they had cameras set up and the Russians had to get up early in the morning and they were miserable but they were always miserable but we had this whole conversation but then it was really disjointed and awkwardly tried to have a rehearsal and everyone was like well that was an epic fail because we couldn't do it in real time it was a long delay and the Russians were just completely bewildered but you know I'm happy to say that now whatever it is 14 years later I think it's a tool that is extremely exciting so I'm just going to speak for and my students, I teach at BU and they're all over it and they're building stuff they're literally building whole performances online and then we're building correspondences online performing them live bringing people in to the rehearsing that was done not in the room together it seems really strange to me I don't know what Twitter is at all though I don't know what a tweet or a Twitter is I don't know what a Twitter is other questions yes over here this is actually a question for the I guess it's a question for everybody for playwrights as well but for the dramaturgs and artistic directors and people who and or friends of playwrights who sit in and foster or facilitate some of this question answering is there one or two or a whole series of core questions that you find you start with is there a first question that is always the first one or is it totally and I mean I'm sure it I know it changes from play to play and I know it changes from playwright to playwright and moment to moment depending on probably what mood you're in and what day it is but is there a really useful first question or first set of questions that you started discussion with with your playwright I think I'm more along the lines of what you were saying that it's different from playwright to playwright and place to place I start with my relationship to the playwright what they've told me about the play questions that I've asked that they answered with another question but I guess basically I try to find that first thing from what the playwright is saying and who that playwright is playwrights are wonderful creatures that's that being the playwright myself to face to face that empty page and put something on there takes a lot because you're going to be putting your ideas and your beliefs out into the general public and most of us don't have to do that you don't have such a great admiration for the playwright and I just often that how am I to have anything to say about this amazing thing that you just made but don't you think playwrights really also want partnership I feel like it's about so much of the conversation today is about how do we avoid isolation and how do we build community connections between playwright and director between actor and playwright so much for me is about one of my first things I always say what can I do for you you want some tea what do you need chicken soup whatever it is that they need I want to give it and at the same time I want to say what do you want to give me so it's right away a relationship of two adults it's not a grown up talking to a child we need to know everything which is completely ridiculous we're there to ask questions, literally we're there to know the least we're the stupidest one in the world we have to be to help everybody figure out what the questions are actors too we don't need to talk to actors like your children they're not, we're all here so for me it's right away what do you want out of what do we together want to make out of this and I also ask a question at the center of this piece what's our motor what's the vibrating part at the center what's the rhythm of it, what's the atmosphere of it what do you think the texture is so that we can start to vibrate out from the center of the core of why this thing has even been exist I don't call it a play always but sometimes it's not a play, sometimes it's something else and I think Mary-Anne's right every single playwright is so unique I mean you see it at playlabs right that amazing smorgasbord the other night it's like a dream come true that means putting themselves out there but what is the motor what can I do for you what do you want to do with me I think those are my three of my big questions I think going back into something that I do say to everybody before we start is what's your intention what did you intend to happen here when you initially wrote it, what's your intention because as long as we follow that line you want to take us through the whole same thing you ask actors Mary-Anne, don't you think that if you or somebody who is less qualified than you are if it's a play or sees a show and doesn't see the intention why would there be a question just because I'm around to make sure that it's the playwright's intention and not my own understanding in terms of methodology of working in a group but if the playwright doesn't express the intention in whatever it's written it becomes futile to ask what's your intention I think it's a different side of the coin it should become transparent or at least how should I say it you can surmise it I asked this question in the past and I don't know if anyone came with an answer it's about my kind of job did Chekhov need a dramaturg to write his plays but he didn't write them like that overnight he had people who were commenting advising bitching whatever they were doing they were his dramaturg but there is no need for dramaturg this is an American invention well he also was not happy with a lot of his productions because he thought the intention that he wrote it with was not being followed so I think he saw what he saw hold on one second can we just get I just want to quickly say I think there is a difference between imposition and intention and that I have felt very alienated I have talked to a director that I felt has imposed a meaning on the play that I think that any literate person should not read into and so in that process I feel as if there is a golf between director and playwright and that affects the system of trust between the two people so going back to what you said about partnership then this partnership is on a faulty premise because I feel as if yes the play is ready my intention should be clear and yet here's this person who's going to impose a meaning that I think doesn't show that they're truly paying attention to the text within itself we have time for just one more question I had a reading here an early stages reading here five months ago of my play and what was interesting about that but very I don't know what a good word is for paralyzing for me as a playwright was that the audience felt so very strongly and they were at polar opposites because it was set in Vietnam it was set during the time of the Civil Rights so people in the audience felt very strongly why are you using the word nigger the new age other people were saying use the word nigger it would have been used at that time appropriate to the setting so it was and people were going back and forth they felt so strongly that I just didn't know where to go as a writer and I thought I was in a good place but after that I was like well how do I rewrite this now because people were super passionate about the play and they were like no and people were emailing me afterwards saying don't change it I heard what this audience member said but don't change it it was right I heard a guy who said I was in Vietnam and it's fine just the way it is so then as a writer I mean all that did for me was I was paralyzed and I still haven't even like rewritten and put in all their suggestions so that's what my question is it's good to have audience feedback and participate but wow I don't know so you're kind of expressing a situation where it wasn't helpful for you that you were getting too many conflicting comments with stronger opinions I saw two polar size you animated the anxiety that was already there yeah two polar frames about the play two polar views of where the play should go and I was just like wow okay I don't know yeah oh yes Christine would like to respond to that respond to that a little laterally perhaps and coming back to this next question too which I think the elephant in the room is the P word which is production you know in a way thinking about your question about Chekhov in the drama too I mean Chekhov had the scaffolding to build his work of actors and director and productions you know I mean Mark Twain says a man who picks up a cat by the tail learns something you know there's something about producing a play and working with people to make something in the world that I think one of the difficult things that we dance around and talking about how to have dialogues with playwrights and about development is the sort of the absence of enough productions you know that we are either supplied with playwrights relative to the established production opportunities so we need to rethink how that happens in the field we need to think about how playwrights can be in a room to make their work happen with other people whether or not it's through the submitting and rating channel I mean the word is playwright it's right like a shipwright or a wheelwright there's something about this idea of the architect you know the architect has a vision okay and you can sit around and talk about a picture of a building and the design of a building the vision of a building forever but unless the thing stands up in space and time you haven't finished your job as an architect and that's when builders come in and when you learn about things like how a building sits in a park and what it's like for human beings to walk through it so there's an element of learning to be a playwright that you cannot do just by sitting and having hypothetical conversations about what the playwright might be like when it became a production you know so I'm just saying that I think we should be clear-eyed about the fact that some of these conversations become shell gains you know and in the middle is this thing, to be a playwright you have to put your work on of its fate with collaborators and see if it stands up or falls down, that's it some of us collaborators are audience members some of them are the artists that you work with to do it. I think that was a terrific synthesis of many different ideas that were discussed in the panel the perfect note actually to leave our discussion today, I think that this is a great conversation and I look forward to us continuing this conversation with the panelists with you and the audience and as we move forward in the field and I just want to thank these terrific panelists again for their conversation thank you very much