 it is still the run-up and in 2020 the country enjoyed a trade surplus of about 4.6 billion US dollars from the continent and Africa takes up a 20% share of Nigeria's exports. Economic links between Nigeria and the rest of the continent should grow under the African continental free trade area and as a country charts a partway from its dependence on all exports the planned review of Nigeria's foreign policy must be evidence-driven. To benefit the country and its citizens the interest of both should first be clearly defined and while Nigeria does need to retain its approach to engaging the wider world it shouldn't lose sight of Africa's continued relevance in its affairs. Let me ask this question before I get to the question. We have the Bayo Loa K. He's a principal research fellow African resource development center and he's still here. We had him yesterday, even though I wasn't here, but we're starting off this way. Nigeria's first point of entry into the African diplomatic space. There's a lot of conversation around that. I mean even in primary school they would tell you that Nigeria is like the big brother of Africa and of course West Africa if you want to bring it closer. And that's because you know our diplomatic ties go beyond the shores of the country of course and you know a lot of conversations around that but now a new government is coming in and there's not been a lot of talk about this diplomatic space and how Nigeria has been you know it's more like we've stepped a few steps backwards. So too much into the future of what we do not even understand. You know because you know it gets all modeled up in a lot of things more like we're biting more than we can chew or we're living in past glory but whichever situation it is we're looking at 2023 we're already in it the elections are coming up in barely a month and how do you think the upcoming government will best step into the diplomatic space for Nigeria. Mr Bayo. Thank you very much. I think first of all that the the role of Nigeria as if you like the big brother people like to say that on the continent some have suggested that this role is divine you know that is it's something that Nigeria had no choice but to grow into. Okay and if you look at the trajectory of a foreign policy evolution you may want to agree with that for example the first point of entry that we made definitively into the African diplomatic space was actually at the origin of the formation of the Organization of African Unity the OAU which today is known as the African Union and you had two regional blocks at the time you had what was called the Casablanca block of course Casablanca is in Morocco and then you had the Monrovia block and Monrovia is the capital of Liberia named after President Monro. Now Nigeria belong to the Monrovia block and Nigeria was one of the countries which championed the merger of these two blocks the Casablanca block and the Monrovia block and that was successfully achieved and it led to the formation of the Organization of African Unity so you can argue that right from her independence Nigeria already found herself having to lead to play a role in in trying to ensure that the best on the continent of Africa was harnessed for the benefit of our people of course at that time the priority was the liberation of the rest of Africa because by 1960 just a few African countries have become independent so and those few Ghana became independent as you know the first was the first sub-Saharan African country to become independent and so Kwame Krumah of Ghana was playing a very big role mobilizing and galvanizing the others and so Nigeria found herself also joining the free and actively engaging to make sure that the Casablanca and Monrovia blocks joined together to form the African Unity at the Organization of African Unity now known as AU so I think that was our first definitive entry pointing to the African diplomatic space. We've already been so far because we entered at that time and we played a significant role we got the name the big brother as we have all said but it seems as if the focus has been lost somehow okay let me take for instance the the the road and the rail to to Niger Republic yesterday we were talking about how the people were made to own the foreign policy how the people even to primary school level donated money 400 million dollars you said yesterday 400 million Naira which was more than 400 million dollars anyway yes so now when that whatever was done to Niger Republic for instance buying cars for them and doing a road or a rail to Niger that's I'm sure it's part of the foreign policy but the people didn't seem to know what it was the people didn't seem to understand because it seemed as if it's something that just came off the cuff of someone and it was not something that the entire nation was carried along so did we miss the part somewhere did we are we now not as deliberate with us foreign policy as we used to be how would you rate the foreign policy direction nowadays as compared to what we used to have well just just quickly before I answer the question you see the Nigerian government has always supported new foreign countries you know we discussed this extensively yesterday yes we looked at how Francophone countries did not listen to France when France wanted them to support the Afra because many African countries have different ethnic groups all African countries are multi-ethnic well 90% or more are multi-ethnic so if a multi-ethnic state and you support the breakup of another multi-ethnic state you're basically saying you're encouraging the breakup of your own country so that didn't resonate with the rest with the Francophone states and so they remain loyal to the idea of one Nigeria and Nigeria repeat that that actually posted at the core of the foundation of a course but now from the military era sorry from the first Republic Prime Minister to father they were you know Nigeria deployed surprising it is to be surprising for many people Nigeria deployed its first external military operation was in what was called Tangaika which was Tanzania and Zanzibar the two countries came together to form Tanzania but at that time it was Tangaika you have Tangaika and Zanzibar and in Tangaika the army rebelled against the government and there was the army mutiny against the government and Nigeria sent troops I think this was in 1963 Nigeria sent troops immediately to Tangaika you know people don't talk about that when they talk about Nigeria's foreign policy but that was a very very bold move at that time and then later on Nigeria sent troops into Kungo Kungo Kinshasa which later became known as the Zaire and today is known as the Democratic Republic of Kungo and those were the origins of what you may call an activist foreign policy but coming back to you know whether this foreign activist foreign policy has remained I would say that from 1960 when Nigeria became independent up until 1989 where we had Perestroika and Glasnost as policies of former President Mikhail Gorbachev of the last president of the Soviet Union the foreign policy direction of Nigeria was assured was definitely the trajectory was well known but when President Gorbachev launched Perestroika and Glasnost to reform the old Soviet Union this had significant impact on international relations and it affected the foreign policies of so many countries because don't forget that we were clamoring for the liberation of African states and the Soviet Union played a big role in that Cuba played a big role in that and on the other hand you have the Euro-Atlantic powers who were opposed as it were to the liberation of those especially the southern African states so there was a clash and that was the core of our foreign policy to ensure that the black person wherever he was found or wherever she was found was you know had dignity was very respected and so on and so forth so Gorbachev's policies impacted the entire foreign policy direction of so many countries and Nigeria was not an exception and I feel that that was where we started having if you like a reduction in the tempo and direction of our foreign policy you know but nonetheless I am happy and I was discussing yesterday we have the imagines we talked to democratically 1999 in Nigeria and the succession by President Abumbeki of the Mandela presidency saw a very interesting bilateral if you like agreement so to speak between Nigeria and South Africa that led to the rejuvenation of the African Union through the new partnership for Africa's development and the transformation that it brought within those eight interesting years you know when these two gentlemen were in power and that showed us what South Africa and Nigeria can do in lifting up the African continent so I would say that our activists foreign policy was continuous was definitive and you see as part of that don't forget that the origin or the or the the high point of that foreign policy that activists foreign policy was the emergence was was a was during the emergence of General Murtala Ramat Mohamed in 1975 when we had the stalemates in Angola the liberation the Portuguese colonies in Africa imagine was still under colonial in the 70s when the rest of the continent was free the Portuguese refused to leave and so in Angola you had the MPLA the FNLA and UNITA three liberation movements fighting against the Portuguese and when the Portuguese run away with without putting anybody in charge these three liberation movements started fighting against each other and the FNLA and UNITA were supported by United States and Western Europe and Great Allah Mohammed became head of state the first meeting he will attend in Addis Ababa he read a speech titled Africa has come of age and that speech that he read he told he point in a point-blank way so to speak he told all the African heads of state in the room he said you are either for the liberation of Angola or you engaged it and if you are for the liberation of Angola you must support the MPLA okay and if you are supporting UNITA or FNLA it means that you are on the side of those who are against Africa's interest that was a defining moment for the organization of African unity was a defining moment from Angola it was a defining moment for Nigerian foreign policy and it made the United States to take note because the MPLA went ahead to win to become to form the government of Angola and for the first time in the history of Africa is sitting American president President Jimmy Carter visited Nigeria for four days that was an acceptance of the emergence of Nigeria or what Professor Bola G and he calls as part of the concept of medium powers so Nigeria's foreign policy has it was consistent because if you look at what Balewa did as prime minister sending troops to Tangaika sending troops to the Democratic Republic of Congo although as part of the UN and if you look at you know that trajectory just continued until the even under General Gohan it's just that we were at war and so General Gohan's government couldn't really continue you know in that definitive way because for four years we were three years we were basically fighting and then for two years after that we're trying to repel the damage and try to bounce back but shortly after General Gohan's out star we saw that Nigeria continued that trajectory and a second high point because the liberation of the southern Africa countries were what you might call kinetic and soft power application the the the nationalization of British Petroleum in Nigeria by General Mbasson Joe when the British government refused to take responsibility for midwife in Black majority in Rhodesia which is now Zimbabwe and when Lord Carrington who was foreign secretary of Britain after he had been told that Nigeria said she was watching closely what Britain would do and Britain had to play its role and Lord Carrington said Nigeria can go live back and not bite on quotes he said that on BBC he said we don't take what Nigeria is taking seriously because Nigeria can only back and cannot bite that very night General Mbasson does government nationalize British petroleum assets and of course the Lancaster has talks in England immediately picked tempo and then they agreed on the liberation of Zimbabwe and the white minority who ended in Zimbabwe so you can see that all of these foreign policy positions was through kinetic giving military assistance to the liberation movements and software application like the nationalization of British petroleum and so on and so forth and the high point of a soft power deployment I think was the establishment of the technical aid core domiciled in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs where Nigeria determined that Africa was the centerpiece of a foreign policy and wherever the Black man or Black woman is anywhere in the world including the Caribbean's Nigeria will make sure they are supported so we began to send skilled manpower to different African countries and to the Caribbean's on that the technical aid core to assist other African countries who didn't have as much skilled manpower as Nigeria had so we applied both soft power and kinetic if you like kinetic deployment you know of power to achieve the foreign policy objectives so I think we've been consistent and I think like I said it was only when Soviet Union the Soviet Union collapsed and that had impact on every country not just Nigeria and up till today even the European countries and the Americans are still trying to recreate their foreign policy just like us. Let's talk about NEPAD you know as a critical turning point it's the new partnership for Africa's development do you see or do you think that there is still a political will you know directed towards that of you know formation because it seems like there has been a lot of display of selfishness on the level of you know each nation each African country fighting for themselves you know at an individual level and you can you can see that from you know what is going on in South Sudan and in Sudan generally people are fighting their wars and the entire Africa is keeping quiet even Nigeria as the big brother that we claim to be even though we have our troops over there but little or no conversations go on about these issues meanwhile we have NEPAD and it is still you know supposed to be functional do you see a political will to step back to the beginning of you know for the reason for the formation of this organization in the first place and to bring Africa together if not as a united states of Africa which might be nice if it ever happens but at least as the brotherhood that we've always shared that we've always had I mean the African tradition is such that you know you are your brother's keeper if your neighbor is wailing you are wailing along with him and you're mourning along with him what do you how do you react to that thank you very much and that's a very very brilliant question you know the African union aims to have a united states of Africa just like you said but the way to get there the the road to get there is to to develop the different sub regions and that's why where the the road map is essentially woven around the the development of the various sub regions through the regional economic communities the wrecks so in West Africa we have Iqours, Southern Africa we have Sadeq in East Africa we have the East African community and in Central Africa we have the Central African customs union now if you look at all these regional economic communities and yesterday we made an addition to that the most advanced of those regional economic communities is Iqours and yesterday when we were talking about Iqours we highlighted all the achievements of Iqours including the introduction of free movement Iqours started visa free movement many many many years before Iqours started in Europe Iqours became the first regional economic community to have a community passport the Iqours passport and all of this happened by the way when Nigeria returned to democracy 1999 Nigeria was able to mobilize and and galvanize the rest of of West Africa but if you look it comparatively if you look at Sadeq sorry Iqours also became the first sub-regional body in the world to deploy a pacific instrument for the resolution of conflict that was Iqoumog and Iqoumog became the first military pacific instrument in the world to carry out peace enforcement what the united nation calls chapter seven operations even the UN had not undertaken chapter seven operations when Iqoumog switched from white helmet operations to green helmet operations in Liberia so these are some of the monumental achievements of Iqoumog which are underplayed even by Africans themselves who do not understand or some of whom do not understand or appreciate the significant progress that this body has made so if you look like South Sudan that you mentioned the the problem in that region is because the region is not as harmonious as the West African sub-region you know and when today you can you can you can count several pacific instruments that Iqoumog is known as deployed you had Iqoumog one in Liberia you had Iqoumog two in Sierra Leone you had Iqoumog that is Iqoumog mission in Côte d'Ivoire you had Iqoumog in Binidissal you had Iqoumog Iqoumog mission in Gambia which is the most recent so if you if you count almost six different pacific instruments whereas Southern African countries for example are now only able to deploy their first pacific instrument into Mozambique you know so if the problem in East Africa or home of Africa is largely because in my view and I say this respectfully not and not that I'm disdaining the other sub-regions it's just because I think those sub-regions have not developed the original economic community to the level to which the West Africans have and that's what the African Union has agreed should be the the if you like the plans on which the emerging United States of Africa should hinge now if we come to net pad which is your your question proper um I agree with you I think it has lost steam okay most of the achievements of net pad if you even look at for example uh when net pad was launched and was being vigorously pursued every African country was under obligation to set up a ministry of integration and cooperation in Africa and all African countries went ahead to set up their ministries of integration and cooperation because why we were more or less trading and collaborating with our former colonial you know powers called colonial masters rather than with ourselves and one of the achievements of the new partnership for African development was to ensure that we as Africans can trade with ourselves can visit ourselves can build on the bonds the fraternal bonds the cultural bonds the ethnic bonds that already exist you know in pre-colonial times and um the fire seems to have gone down but one good thing is that and maybe this will give you comfort which is because you asked the question one good thing is that the African continental free trade area which is now which even President Buhari had to sign Nigeria's you know the the accept you know he had to sign the treaty and he had to go to parliament for ratification that African continental free trade area is a byproduct of net pad so even if net pad isn't as you know vigorous or vibrant that you can see today the fruits of net pad are still hanging around but I agree with you that our leaders today need to vigorously uh you know embrace those aspects of net pad that we need to forcefully or or radically implement and just permit me to quickly add that President Juno Seniery the first president of Tanzania there was something he often said and as a young person when I had him I really never understood that statement until like many many years later I had the opportunity of being posted to East Africa and I could actually visit Tanzania you know on missions and I have now appreciated and then visiting other African countries and now seriously appreciated what President Juno Seniery was saying President Juno Seniery was making a very good point he said listen all African countries are not equally endowed so if for example we all as I agree for example that we all need to we need to build cars there is no let me use power generation let me not use cars we all need electricity in Africa okay some countries are endowed with hydro electrical electricity potentials they have big rivers and so on some don't have and if you look at the the quarry between Ethiopia Sudan and Egypt today because Ethiopia built a dam on the blue Nile I'm sure you're following that argument so you can just imagine what Yuri was saying he said listen every country doesn't have to build a hydroelectric station let the country that is better endowed let that country go ahead and build it okay and then let an agreement be made so that countries that don't have such resources can benefit from the electricity that will come from there and they can get it at a reasonable cost and so on and so forth in other words let us site projects and let projects be community owned or let projects be regionally owned there's no reason for Ghana to set up a vehicle plant and then Togo sets up a vehicle plant and then Bene sets up a vehicle plant maybe Ghana Nigeria can have vehicle plants and we also and then maybe Kutbevo as well and we sell to the rest of West Africa so this is the spirit of Nepal which when President Yuri was saying that we were not even thinking of Nepal but then Nepal has come but like I said the next president of Nigeria and that's one of the things one would expect will need to do a lot to actually ensure that this the letter and spirit of Nepal is both like okay because that was our next question to you just wrap it up here on this segment just asking you what are these critical things that the next government should do the next president particularly will have to do to strengthen our relationship with other African countries before we talk about the the globe but African countries before today just briefly before we take the next yes sure sure number one let's talk specifically to Nigeria our our what you call instruments of foreign policy instruments of foreign policies as a president of Nigeria the minister of foreign affairs the minister of foreign affairs and our diplomats okay and then our military and our economic resources and so on and so forth number one I think that President Buhari has launched he's been practicing although he's not calling it what I what I would call it now but that's what he's been trying to do citizen diplomacy that wherever Nigerian citizens are he will make sure they do not suffer and when I was in India for instance the president came to India and I know he insisted he wanted to talk to all Nigerians there and I see him doing this in every country he goes to and going further than that to give concrete expression to eat he set up the diaspora commission and I'm sure everybody knows about the diaspora commission with Honorable Abike Dabiri as the chairperson and I think this is a very nice move especially because the Nigerian diaspora sends not less than 20 billion dollars to Nigeria every year but I believe that the next president of Nigeria should make sure that there is clarity in what the diaspora commission is doing and what our minister of foreign affairs is doing I won't go into details because we don't have time but I feel that there is some overlapping and we must never diminish our minister of foreign affairs if this this is where I have the diplomats first secondly I've spoken about Nepal so I would say that thirdly the next president has to make sure that Nigeria is well situated in the emerging international space that we're seeing because after the Ukraine-Russian conflict will have ended or even before the Ukraine-Russian conflict ends there is already a new international power structure that is emerging and in my view this power structure is going to be the United States and NATO on the one hand the Russia on the other hand and China so Nigeria must make sure that we are not we do not take sides with any of these three we must maintain our neutrality in a way that guarantees our own interest you know I feel strongly that we should not align with any of these three so if you like maybe the non-alignment of the 70s will be coming back because we are going to end up in an arms race and we are going to end up in a trilateral international global system so I feel that the Nigerian president has to work hard to make sure that we remain neutral and can take the advantages and benefits of that neutrality okay well thank you very much Bayo if if you think of something else that might come a little bit later but for now we'll just take a break and when we return we'll be talking about building collapse in lego state and what the next government should do to make sure that these things if not totally eradicated reduced the incidences of buildings collapsing almost on a monthly basis in lego state in a populated environment like ours we should never have incidents like that if it is avoidable let's know how to avoid it we'll be joined by mr friday chuku who is an engineer in that sector and he will be telling us what are the causes and what can be done about that stay with us