 All right. So in the modern world today, you know, what extent are some of these secular ideologies religious, and to what extent are they inspired by Christianity? And let's go straight to wokeism. First of all, what is wokeism? There's a big debate about how one should define wokeism. But what is it? And in what way do you think it's religious and altruistic? Where's the altruism? Well, I wrote about this in an article that I published some months ago about John McWhorter's book, Woke Religion. And the first thing I would say is go to McWhorter's book to find the evidence, because he presents a lot of it on his own without, I think, interpreting it along the lines that I do. But, you know, it's a social doctrine that holds that we are, in effect, defined by our status as either victims or oppressors. And the kind of victimhood in question is the victimhood on the basis of race, racial injustice. The oppressors have this original sin. And they need to repent. They need to atone for their sin. And above all, they need to be humble. They need to not exert or express the sin of pride. The sin of pride, this is not the language they put it in, but what it amounts to, in effect, is your prideful sinner. If you think, I am able to escape from the clutches of racism. I can be an individual who judges people objectively, according to their moral character. And yes, I know there's other people who are racist in the world, and racism's a problem, but I am not bound by this sin. And therefore, I do not have to atone for it if I am not one of these sinners. Some people might have to, but not me. And that's, by the way, a sin that the woke accused McWhorter himself of, even though McWhorter is black. And he's probably more reviled than white people who agree with what he's saying, because he's got the audacity to stand up and say, yeah, I know there's racism, but it's never really affected me that negatively. And I've done quite well for myself. And by the way, I think that what these woke leaders are selling us is bullshit. So to what extent is altruism shaping the whole woke phenomena? I mean, and how do you, I don't know if you've looked into intersectionality and how intersectionality is related to woke. And again, it seems to be one of the most explicit manifestations of altruism out there. I haven't looked a lot at intersectionality, but the way that it's the way that I understand it is that you can't just divide the world into race or class or sex. You have to look at the minute permutations of each of those which result in a particular subset of people based on their race and class and sex, etc. Being even more victimized and oppressed than others. Yeah, I mean, the standard is how victimized and oppressed are you. I mean, that's you gain virtue in a sense by being more oppressed and more victimized. And I think more importantly, from the perspective of thinking about how this relates to altruism, you get more, you get more moral credit if you show how concerned you are with people who are in this subset of nations that makes them the most depressed. So, you know, sometimes they talk about the oppression Olympics, where if you can show that you've got all the greatest disadvantages, then you you win that Olympics. And I think that's more or less what what the present concern about intersectional politics is about. I mean, I should say, like, I think it's not that there's nothing to learn from the sociology of like studying. You know, why is it, for instance, that what does it mean to be a black woman as opposed to a white woman? And yeah, you probably are at dealing with bigger disadvantages and because of that and that's good to know. And when you're trying to figure out actually practical solutions to various forms of injustice, you need to know something about that. It's just that the way that that knowledge is channeled toward like the privilege walks that people are supposed to do at college campuses where you take, you know, more steps forward or backward depending upon how many of these categories you fall into just for the sake of stigmatizing certain people. That's that's the problem. And how do you see all of this connected to to altruism so again I think it's I think it's a way of penalizing those who are perceived to be good in some way to those from those who have to those who haven't. It's a way to make you feel to suffer original sin. If you're white, you have original sin, you know if you're male you have original sin. I need further and further. It's so it's it's hard to say what is the exact relationship between altruism and and this ideology. You know, it's not that I think it's the thing we were talking about at the beginning where we're talking about a culture where where altruism is literally seen as simply equated with morality. So everyone is swimming in that sea. And some people are simply taking it more seriously than others. I think that the kind of social justice movement is the the wing of the altruist movement that has decided to channel that in the direction of we are going to worship at the altar of of victimhood we're going to worship at the altar that's going to be our God. And that's the they're the ones to whom we're going to direct our sacrifices for whatever sociological psychological reason. That's that's the direction they've gone. And you know, some of them may be channeling it from their own religious background. Some of them may be fully secular. But like again, this is just this is all they've ever known that morality is that religions always had a monopoly on morality. There's this telling passage in McWarder's book that I quote in my article where he he he shows the sort of concrete meaning of this. And again, he's not thinking of it in terms of altruism per se. But I'll just read this because I think it's it's telling says this is all very Abrahamic as religion goes Muslim Islam the core of such words in Arabic is the is the consonants SLM which constitute the concept of submission. One submits not only to a God to suspend disbelief is a kind of submission. That's a very important point. It is no accident that many of the white elect. That's what he refers to as the woke spontaneously put their hands above their heads as an indication that they understand that they bear white privilege. Think of this type asserting Oh, I know I'm privileged while holding their hand up palm out like a Pentecostal. I'm so comfortable with that gesture and testing to their privilege because of an overriding impulse to indicate submission to a power up there looking down on them. I mean, that's that's an elegant observation on his part. So what was that that point you made is really the in the middle that was really important. Oh, the to suspend disbelief is a kind of submission. Because that that is his brushing up against the fact that the ultimate form of sacrifice and the ultimate form of humility that altruism really demands of you is the sacrifice of your mind, which is one reason why I am quite upset that a number of the better rational secular, even critics of woke have embraced now this idea of intellectual humility or epistemic humility. Like the problem with the woke ism, they say is that they're not humble enough, they should really stop believing so hard. But wait, but that that's that's committing the very same crime as the woke is saying don't be so proud don't believe things so with such confidence. I mean, there's, there is a problem with woke ism with regard to its false confidence. But if you have the same, it's the same problem with religion, right? They false confidence in their religion.