 This week on the anxious truth. We're talking about exercise and recovery exercise and anxiety Interceptive exposures and sensitivity to all kinds of crazy bodily sensations that you do not like and fear of a special guest here My friend Jenna over pause back. So let's go Hello everybody, welcome back to the anxious truth. This is podcast episode number 229 We are recording in October of 2022. I am Drew lincellata creator and host of the anxious truth This is the podcast that covers all things anxiety anxiety disorders and anxiety recovery If you are new here and just stumbled in on YouTube or stumbled into the podcast welcome I hope you find this episode and all of my content helpful if you are a returning listener or viewer welcome back Thank you for your continued support today. We are going to talk about anxiety recovery and exercise physical sensations what interceptive exposures are why we're afraid of our own bodies what we can do about that Why exercise makes you feel worse instead of better even though the whole internet tells you that it's supposed to make you feel better And sort of how to manage that so my friend Jenna overbought is back Jenna has not been on the podcast For a while now. It's been at least a year and a half or so since she was on Jenna is an anxiety and OCD specialist practicing in the Midwest of the United States She's also affiliated with no CD and she knows her stuff If you are following me on social media and follow along with my podcast You should also be following along with Jenna So if you go to the show notes for this episode at the anxious truth comm slash 2 2 9 I will have all of her links or I'll put them in the description of the YouTube video if you're watching on YouTube So before we get going I will shorten this pitch because there's a lot to go over today But just remember that the anxious truth is more than just this video in this podcast episode There's a whole bunch of cool resources on my website at the anxious truth comm including a monthly webinar and distress Tolerance that I do with Joanna Hardis. There are three books that I've written There's 200 and somewhat other podcast episodes. There's all my social media stuff There's a free like anxiety 101 recovery training video on my youtube that you can click on from my website So go check it out at the anxious truth comm All the resources are the right there on the home page for the post part most part Go value yourself of everything that I am offering And if you are enjoying my work, it's helping and you'd like to find a way to keep it add and sponsorship free All the ways to do that are at the anxious truth comm slash support And as always I will tell you that it is appreciated but never required Thank to all thank you to all of you for any way that you support this work. I appreciate any and all of it All right, let us get jenna on So we'll be back with jenna on camera and in studio in studio means over restream by the way We're gonna have a nice conversation. I'll be back afterwards to wrap the whole thing up Alrighty then here we are as promised Next to me. I got it right is jenna overbaw who has not been on the podcast for such a long time Many of you know jenna. Thank you much for coming on appreciate it. Thank you for having me. I love you and I love being here You're very welcome So today we're going to talk about like I mentioned in the intro We're going to talk about exercise and oh, I have to put the fancy caption on the screen too Wait, let me do that really quick because you know, we're so professional So if you want to go to the show notes, you can just go to that URL anyway We're going to talk about exercise and anxiety and interceptive exposures and all the nasty Ugly feelings that you get when you're in the gym that you need but you don't want so Um, let's talk about that. Let's let's start with the idea of what interceptive exposure really is first of all Tell the people who you are because they know who you are but just give Yeah, which is really weird the last time I was here with you. I was in a corner in my Old work office hoping that the fire alarm didn't go off I think I had like 200 followers on instagram and I was just like, oh my gosh. This guy actually wants to talk to me That's crazy Here we are Yeah, you're actually going to love your following that I am now I think possible I don't know about that. I try not to look it freaks me out. But anyway, yes, so I'm jenna overbought I'm Licensed professional counselor. I've been working with iD since 2008 Um, and yeah, I just knew from a very early age. I'm uh, I always was a super anxious person myself As a kid, but I also was always very competitive with my anxiety as well so I always tried to go ahead first into it and You know, see what I could do next to kind of overcome that and eventually when I learned about exposure and response prevention I was like, I have to do this. This is in my bones. I want to do this forever um And so yeah, it was just everything that I did from then on out worked in a residential OCD and anxiety recovery unit where I worked with the most Abilitating cases of OCD and anxiety in the world including a lot of people who needed interoceptives and had high levels of anxiety sensitivity like we'll talk about um, I think everybody can probably benefit from some of those exercises, but Yeah, it's just been a really rewarding experience. I love getting people to understand the benefit and doing difficult things and um, Realizing eventually that there's a better way to live. What's better than that? So here I am Well, thanks for coming. I appreciate it. Jenna is an outstanding psycho educator. You're very good at teaching these things So, thank you. I will have all of her links in the show notes if you don't by some miracle, you know follower So Anyway, let's let's talk about interoceptives because a lot of people hear the word and they don't understand what it is So let's talk about that first so they understand sort of the background of what we're talking about What's an interoceptive exposure? So an interoceptive is a fancy way of what I Call kind of just a body exposure, right? So if anybody out there is, you know, at all familiar with the process of exposure work It's the this concept that we do something To kind of push you outside of your comfort zone. We're going in the direction of something that makes you anxious We're doing something that you've been scared of or avoiding And usually those exposures are things kind of outside or for triggers rather outside of your body So if you're fearful of car crashes, then we'll gradually work with you on that kind of stimuli, right? Looking at images of car accidents or trying to drive independently without those safety behaviors If you're worried about contamination, obviously we'll work with you on those related kind of concepts and exposures But a lot of times these things that we're fearful of are not happening outside of our bodies Sometimes we're afraid of our own physiological sensations um And so these physiological sensations are normal the physiological sensations are not the problem It is our body's natural reaction to send us into that fight flight or freeze mode whenever we do interpret threat um So we start to experience that adrenaline rush the nausea the if you're anything like me hives on your chest like I Always get like red blotches on my chest Just that that these feelings of tinglyness and not just not feeling good. Just the the physiological feeling of it You can get dizzy um shortness of breath rapid breathing And so it's when people start to be sensitive to those Sensations that creates more anxiety. Oh my gosh. I'm I'm getting nauseous. What does that mean? Oh my gosh, what if I get sick and I'm here and I can't tolerate that Oh my gosh, I'm dizzy. I can't I can't focus. What if I fall over? What if what if and then they start to be anxious about being anxious? They start to have fear of fear They start to panic about these sensations And so what happened after that but more of these physiological sensations And that's kind of how they can kind of compound themselves into having an anxiety or panic attack um So these inter-acceptives are really critical because You know, we can do these external exposures in their everyday life Like going to the grocery store or doing these things that they avoid in their life But we have to get them to become habituated to and comfortable with and okay with the physiological sensations that are fearful of and so inter-acceptives would be things like Breathing through a straw for a certain amount of time running a place for a certain amount of time holding your breath Shaking your heart up and forth. Yeah spinning in a chair anything to intentionally elicit these uncomfortable sensations in a way that's challenging But manageable and they work via the same principles as traditional exposure work that other people Might be familiar with already. I have to plug in my laptop BRB go right ahead So while jenna is plugging in her laptop I will add to that if you've ever heard me say That the driving is not the exposure the supermarket is not the exposure. It's just what we use to trigger the fear Yes, this is what we're talking about You're not worried about the supermarket or the driving or the staying home alone You work at how you feel when you do those things and so inter-acceptors are a way to just skip the supermarket and get Right to the bodily sensations that you hate So so many people when I mentioned inter-acceptor of exposures they You know, they sort of blanch at it like that is insane. Are you telling me I'm literally supposed to intentionally make my heart race? The answer is yes. Yeah, we kind of are And I know it's a little bit paradoxical, right? But all of it is And the idea is you're probably never gonna love this sensation Like I don't know anybody who's gonna love being dizzy or somebody who's gonna love being short of breath Or somebody who's gonna love being nauseous That's not the point the point isn't that you have to like it The point is just that you can tolerate that sensation in such a way that it's not going to dictate your Ability to engage with your values, right? Like that you can tolerate a little bit of a headache and still go to work That you can tolerate a little bit of nausea or Hives and not go into this cascade of subsequent compulsions and safety behaviors that we know just exacerbate everything and make it worse Um, so yeah, it really Lends itself to one you learn to habituate to it. So you simply just get used to it Over time, right? And then you also learn that one these sensations are not as catastrophic as I think they are That losing, you know, you know dizziness does not equal death Losing my breath temporarily does not equal that it's gonna last forever You also learn through this experience of doing it repetitively and in a prolonged fashion That your fears are not as likely to happen as you thought they were so that you're you know I'm dizzy But that doesn't necessarily mean that I fall to the ground in the middle of target and no one is there to help me And I just die alone forever And it also my favorite thing that teaches you is that you can handle it, right? Like that these things happen you can handle it And I think that's like the biggest takeaway from all of this work is that people need to learn that they can handle it 100% I think that is the in my eyes. That's the biggest lesson for sure Not that you are guaranteed that nothing unpleasant will happen But that even if it does you'll you'll handle it. It's how you won't like it I love the part when you said you're never gonna like like them And a lot of people get confused when they hear the word acceptance that like well accepting doesn't mean liking It means tolerating it means navigating you're right. So really important So and when we talk about intentionally bringing up those sensations those bodily sensations by running in place Or jumping up and down or spinning around in your desk chair or whatever it happens to be those are interceptives, but Exercise which is what we wanted to talk about today because so many people Struggled because they're told constantly like general mental health advice on the internet will say Oh, if you're really anxious you got to burn off that adrenaline and exercise and it's good for your mental health Except sometimes it makes them feel worse Because when you exercise you feel all those things that you are afraid to feel So I found in my own personal recovery I knew already would interceptive exposures were but when I got back to the gym and started lifting again Like heavy when I was in the middle of my recovery I kind of forgot that I would that's what I would be doing and those were some really difficult I forget that the weight was really heavy at the time because I was out of shape, but They were some really difficult first couple of weeks there And I had quite a few like panic attacks and near panic attacks Sitting on a bench or in a squat rack Was not fun, but it did teach me How to really get used to those sensations in a big way and while you're Continuing to put yourself in those situations, which you hung in there and you stuck with it Whether you're conscious of it or not your brain is collecting information, right? Like, huh I drew is coming to the gym yet again, and he's experiencing these things yet again Yet the world continues to spin and he continues to have these panic attacks Yet here we are So, you know, even though it feels like oh my gosh, I'm here and I keep coming to the gym and I still feel so anxious You're doing really great work. It's going to take time for your brain to learn new things And so yeah, I mean it just seems like you continue to give yourself that those experiences and our brains learn through experience Our brains cannot learn through logic or rationalization or oh your doctor said that you are fine and okay to exercise So everything's good because anxiety is just going to come back with one more. Well, what it right? Like what if that doctor is talking about right? um another great example of this is um About two two and a half years ago. I randomly I think you know about this too. I had a random seizure um And I like I have no family history of seizures They they did an ekg and eeg cap scans emerald like everything that you could possibly imagine and they had no Explanation as to why I had a seizure Which in a way was really relieving because I'm so glad that nothing was wrong But also was very anxiety provoking because I was like what the heck is wrong. I don't know how to prevent this again um And I am a very active person. I work out and run five six days a week So it's very scary. It was like, I don't know what initiated it Anytime I got short of breath and dizziness in particular was really really challenging for me And for the first couple days after the you know, when I would go to the gym I was like I I I don't know whether I should go to the bathroom So I don't have a seizure in front of everybody or if I should go tell the front desk So in case I do have a seizure they can call the police or like call the ambulance, right? And thank goodness I never made a decision one way or the other and I just kept working out because it's been three years now And I get dizzy all the time. I get dizzy all the time and I Have never had a seizure working out now. I did have another seizure completely unrelated a year after It was in the middle of the night um Still no reason for it But you know, what was interesting was I remember being in the hospital For the second time and I remember thinking, you know, like this is probably going to happen again Like whether it's in a year or in a couple weeks or five years or not 10 years from now And I wasn't even as anxious about it Because I was like, you know what like I already have done this twice like If it happens then it happens like I I I can't I'm doing everything that I can within reason listening to my doctor not anything above and beyond that Yeah, it's one gauging and my values to the best of my ability. I'm not going to let it dictate my life Like if it happens again Then it happens again And I will deal with it when it happens the same way that I've dealt with it the first two times So I really feel like so much of it comes back to Exactly what you said, which is these exposures aren't about proving to yourself that your worst year doesn't happen It's about proving to yourself that you can handle it Yeah, even when you're afraid, you know, it doesn't matter We used to think that like well you you habituate to it and the anxiety goes down and you're okay as long the anxiety goes down But really we're learning now It's like well, even if it doesn't even if you're anxious the whole time at the gym, you're still okay Totally Yeah, when you can accept that lesson like well as long as it goes away after 10 minutes I'm okay because I know a lot of people do that they'll go to the gym and like okay I just get to get through 10 minutes and 12 or 15 minutes later. They're still feeling anxious So they bail Like I'm only okay if the level of my anxiety drops and really the lesson is no matter what your level of anxiety is In that context, you're okay. Yeah, you can you can tolerate that and no matter what we're doing You know, we are our brands are constantly picking up what we're throwing out and so if we You know start our timer at 12 minutes and we say, okay I can't do this anymore. You know, I'm out and you leave the gym while you're anxious as a way to reduce your anxiety in the gym Your brain, whether you're conscientious of it or not is going to get the message that Huh leaving or being in the gym must be dangerous leaving the gym makes Jenna's better feel better Therefore in the future, we should be even more afraid of the gym We should make jenna or drew feel even more of those things so that they leave that dangerous situation later I think we get so caught up and like just wanting those uncomfortable Feelings in those physiological sensations to go away that we forget you are giving your brain a message For the next time that you go to the gym or the next time that you feel this thing Like whatever you do now is going to dictate You know, whether next time is either easier or harder That's true even but marginally easier when we say easier a lot of people misconstrue that like Well, I did it once it should be easy now No easy year and that's all relative it comes in tiny little increments And I think the other thing that's important in that scenario is when you bail on the exercise You leave the gym or whatever you get off your treadmill and you'll sit down That sensation is always going to end it ends no matter what happens It's always going to end like your body even in a full blown panic It's going to get exhausted and the panic will end at some point And then you not only did you teach yourself that the gym is a place you should not ever go But you somehow taught yourself that leaving the gym is what saved you because it ended when I left So that's there's two bad lessons going on there Yeah, that fighter freeze is initiated automatically when our brains interpret threat Whether that's a real threat or not whether that's an actual heart attack or just a racing of your heart But those systems stay on because of how we Continue behaviorally, right? So if we are continuing to think oh my gosh, why am I so busy? I have to go on google Oh my gosh, I have to stay perfectly still because I can't handle this dizziness. Oh my gosh You're asking your partner why you're so dizzy and you're trying to do all these tests for yourself to not get dizzy Right or you're like intentionally trying to slow down your breathing or quicken up your like When you as long as you are acting as though you are in a threatening situation Your brain is going to interpret your behavior as though you are in a stressful situation and it's going to Continue to keep on those systems. So while those systems come on automatically It's your interpretation of and your reaction to those sensations that either Tell eventually the system that it's okay. I don't really actually need your help here right now or yes Stay on stay on stay on and so often we're doing that to ourselves Yeah, which is really sucks So if we bring that back and paradoxically again the more you try to turn it off The less likely it is to turn off. So that's always really difficult But we bring it back to the whole idea of exercise in the context of recovery and getting better When people say well, it makes me feel worse. It's important that we frame that and say no no no It makes you feel It just stop there forget the worst part. It makes you feel the things you don't like so And of course anytime that you're no longer living in this like obsessive and anxious bubble of protection and safety Of course, it's going to be a little bit more difficult because you're not avoiding things, right? So that's something that always like strikes me as interesting with people when they start to do these anxiety-provoking things It's like I just I feel worse and it's like of course you do because you weren't you were just avoiding before But like is that lifestyle also sustainable right like Or sometimes if you bring it back to even to today's topic, I started going to the gym I'm doing my interceptives. I'm doing other exposures and now I'm having panic attacks even in my house Like yeah Well, you try to drop the illusion that your house is safe Like when you stop pretending that you're safer in one place than the other or doing one thing There's no safe zone like it sucks, but that's a very so this is something you I'm guessing see pretty commonly in your practice too Okay, you're making me do these things now. I feel worse everywhere and I don't have no more safe zone anymore Yeah, that happens sometimes So I get that So what what does somebody do so you decide okay? I hear that exercise is good for me, but it makes me feel worse Oh, but drew and Jenna are saying That's this is why it's just eliciting. It makes me feel like I'm anxious. It's the things I hate So what would you tell somebody to do when they decide I want to exercise? I miss it. I used to be an athlete whatever it is, but it makes my anxiety worse What would you tell a client that That comes in with that a complaint. I would I'm really big on as you probably know psychoeducation I want people to understand why I'm having them do the things that they do I don't want them to just do it because Jenna said so I want them to really understand and absorb it And make it their own. I want them before they do anything. I need them to understand Why when it comes to OCD and anxiety why it's so important for them to want what they don't want Why it's so necessary for us to be pushing you outside of your comfort zone and why Hating these symptoms is actually making them worse And why we're going to do something different instead We'll talk about values. We'll talk about all that stuff And then you know once they're kind of on board with that whole general process Um, and you know, they evaluate that yes exercise is within my values. I no longer want anxiety to be running the show You know, we'll do some interceptives together. So, um, first things first and this is readily available online anybody can find it It's called the anxiety sensitivity index or the asi Um, and it's just a questionnaire that basically will identify You know are do you have something called anxiety sensitivity? So anxiety sensitivity is exactly what is that we're talking about where you are sensitive to the physiological symptoms Of anxiety, you know, I don't like it when I feel nauseous. I don't like other people seeing me nervous Um, you know, I get freaked out when I start to notice myself sweating in a group of people What you know a bunch of questions? Um, and it'll probably give you a pretty good idea of yep, I am one of those people I'm definitely going to benefit from these interceptives or these body exposures um And so some you know, everyone feels something different, right? So I get really nervous when I am dizzy I get really nervous. Um And anxious when I start to feel nauseous because I feel like that coincided with how I felt when I had my seizures Um, I don't really get nervous about being short of breath I don't get nervous like when I'm rapidly breathing probably because I'm a runner and It's a part-time job to be short of breath at this point Exactly. And so but also like really goes with what we're saying, right? Like the more that you are doing something the less anxiety you're provoking it is right. So Um, so but that's going to be the opposite for somebody else, right? Like I know my son for instance, he loves being dizzy. He loves when I like spin him around and he does Like on things I'm gonna mention them when we're kids. We do kind of love that Yeah, it's been around exactly and and a lot of us like feeling these things when we're in control of it, right? So that's an aspect of it too, right? Like some people might really love like having a couple drinks and feeling a little bit dizzy, right? But they're in control of that because and they know why they're a little bit dizzy under that situation because they did that That's self-induced versus it's happening randomly. So that's a really important piece as well. Um But yeah, so I would evaluate with the person, you know, what are the symptoms that they particularly hate? What do they not like feeling? um What are some symptoms that they would try to avoid if they could and then we'll Identify some interoseptic exposures that we would do to try to elicit that so Um, you know if someone is really triggered by feelings of nausea, you know, maybe We would have them, you know You know spin around in a chair. Maybe that would make them nauseous if somebody is really triggered by um Like muscle fatigue. I've had people like do planks before I've had people do like a bunch of push-ups before and then like sit with that feeling of like tinglyness in their muscles Um, so there's lots of room to be creative, but obviously, right? Like We also want this to just be implemented as a lifestyle So to do these to do these interoseptive exposures under the guidance or like structure on your own You know with the therapist or on your own. That's all great um But you know going to the gym, right? Like I would identify with the person like what are some Small challenging but manageable ways we can get you to do that. You know um Maybe arm day would be easier the for the person than leg day, right? Maybe there are certain exercises even within an arm day that would be easier for the person than other exercises for an arm day Maybe there are different cardio machines that might be a little bit more manageable for the person. So lots of Incremental there like so the answer like well, what do I do if I go to the gym and I panic and I don't like it How do I how do I do that the bad news that Jen is giving you as well? We do more of that Yes, you can identify that and say well, I don't I get so scared. My heart is racing. Okay Well, it's good that you're going to the gym You're gonna have to keep doing that but maybe start a little more slowly one of the most popular Two podcast episodes I ever did were about this topic years ago When I talk if you have to start by just standing in front of your sofa and walking in place Because that little bit of heart rate elevation sends you into a panic. That's a perfectly acceptable way You don't have to go to the gym and do two hours on a stair climber You can literally just walk gently on a treadmill if that makes you uncomfortable. Yeah going on down your stairs Yeah, yeah, you win like anytime you're uncomfortable you win. So it in that situation. It's okay to be incremental I want to go back for a second to a thing that you said that psycho education and making sure that your client understands why They have to do this stuff And I think in the context of exposure that's super important as it is doing scary stuff in the context of physicality and exercise I think especially for dudes. I'm going to talk for the men in the audience here since I'm one of them It's really easy to get caught up in the idea that the message is just do it Feel the fear and do it anyway Like there's no nuance in that message at all and that I think is a damaging message to a certain extent Yeah, you can maybe boil it down to that in the end. That's what it looks like operationally But there's so much more to it than that and we're also never doing these things to be hardcore These are not character building exercises This has nothing to do with lifting a log over your head with a bunch of other people at a retreat weekend Those might be fun activities one day, but you're learning. This is a learning and cognitive thing So being connected to why you are doing this is really important or it starts to get frustrating and And disheartening for people. Yeah, and the response prevention too. I think is super Important right like I think the exposure piece like that's what people visualize when they see what it is that we're talking about Right, that's what they envision like walking on a treadmill going up and down their Stairs using the lawnmower the you know walking lawnmower versus having your partner do it or something like that Going to the gym, whatever, you know I think we also sometimes forget that we have to do some response prevention To right like it's the most important part You get just like go hard in the gym and like have the best work out ever and go super hard on the treadmill Because it's a great exposure for you and you're just going to do the feel the fear and do it Anyway, but then you're like constantly checking your apple watch to make sure that your heart rate isn't going crazy You can't like go crazy go hard in the gym And then go home and you know google for the next hour about all the symptoms that you're feeling It's really important and home to gizanax one of the few times. I ever caved and took a benzo Was after a workout hard workout. I believe that bad idea That was not a good lesson reinforcing. Yes, it completely is so the rp is the most important part of the the exposure thing But people will say that like oh, yeah, I could do that in the gym like okay I'm gonna go to the I'm drew and Jenna told me I'm gonna go to the gym tomorrow. I'm gonna go hard and it's like It's it has to be challenging and manageable in terms of you also being able to resist your rituals So I would rather for somebody like walk on the treadmill at their house Without any safety behaviors of checking their checking their watch checking their You know heart rate on their throat or the wrist or whatever No googling anything like just truly allowing themselves to feel the anxiety and not having to do anything about it Then to go hard in the gym and then do all these rituals because all those safety behaviors that you do either before during or after It totally negates the experience and it negates the learning that we're talking about You don't learn that you can handle it you learn I can handle it as long as my apple watch says I'm okay And then you know you don't have your apple watch or your apple watch flitches Or you continue to have to look at it and it's like you're still spinning your wheels because you never actually learned That you could tolerate it. Yeah, that it was okay And in a way when you do it that way and you continue to engage in Conditional okayness. I'm okay as long as I'm drinking my water and as you should drink your water in the gym Of course, but sometimes people do that compulsively and as a safety ritual as long as I'm always drinking as long as I can always see the The automatic defibrillator Like that was me like as long as I could see it there and I know somebody's close to it I'll be all right Like I had to stop doing that like all right. I'm just gonna I know where it is. It didn't move It's fine stop that but if you don't if you continue to engage in those things while you're doing this hard work in the Gym or in any other place it can start to become a bit of a Pointless torture merry-go-round and that's where people say I don't know. I'm doing all the things here I'm going to the gym. I'm going hard, but I'm not getting any better. I'm doing something wrong While you're placing all kinds of conditions on doing those hard things. So that's a difficulty right looking at your watch very Just make a glance over to make sure that's the you know where the It's so sneaky very very very sneaky and those are habits that take up by the way They take a long time to break. So you can't just decide one day. That's it I'm doing none. Jenna said no more safety behaviors. You need to just drop them all instantly It will not work that way. Sometimes it takes a while to even ferret out what the hell they are That thing where I would keep track of the defibrillating device To the point where I was actually a little bit more afraid because the lat pulldown was the furthest away from that And in my brain, you know seconds count, of course Gotta do a lot pulldowns. You gotta do it. You can't right. You cannot do you know that and All right, it's a bro exercise, but it is what it is. All right. Hey, I'm gonna pull from I do a lot. I do a lot. Hold on. Thank you. Well pull from above pull from the floor pull from in front That's a that's a good back working. So anyway in the end. I think the bottom line here is yes Exercise might make you feel worse, but it is good for you on so many levels But you may have to get past Just the mechanics of I'm afraid of my heartbeat, which you can use these interceptives You can go incrementally. You can remember why you're doing it You can start to drop your safety and escape behaviors And then at some point you get to the point where yes Now you can begin to realize those other benefits that you read about in self magazine mental health stress relief Initially, that exercise is probably more stressful than a stress reliever in the beginning and that's okay Oh, yeah, and everyone's different, right? Like there is nothing Especially when we're talking about people especially when we're talking about bodies Especially when we're talking about mental health and here we're talking about all those things There's nothing that like fits everybody, right? It's like Exercise is an anxiety reliever for every single person ever work regardless of the nuance, right? Like You have to be everyone's different, right? So If that's the case, I think it can be helpful But it can also, you know, depending on someone's anxiety and triggers Of course, it can be anxiety provoking and that's also really addressable. It's also really treatable Correct. Yeah, and I think we you know as we sort of wrap it up because we're about the half hour mark With an ocd specialist on the screen, we got to mention this that sometimes the exercise can become compulsive So I I absolutely know people. I know one particular person. He's doing much better now He's done a lot of really great work But this person a couple years ago was sure that he found the answer and that was when I start to feel really anxious I just do push-ups because I burn off my adrenaline and that makes me feel better And he literally found himself found himself at concerts in arenas He got into a fight at one point because he tried to drop and do push-ups in a crowded concert And you can't do that It became a ritual that he must do to feel better that can happen So people will get up in the middle of the night and go walk I have to go walk or I go for a run at three o'clock in the morning if I panic at night Don't use or like I think just like general perfectionism and rigidity in their routines, right? Like I have to do it this way like I have to do this workout or else Yes, or else something bad will happen Um, yeah, I mean I feel like we all it can come in so many different forms It can come in it can manifest in so many different sneaky ways for every single person depending on their unique fears But you know, I feel like we all kind of feel that feeling right like I feel it in my chest Like when I'm doing something that's very guided by fear And I'm feeling compelled to do something that I don't want to do and I don't really feel good about Even if I haven't like put all the specifics on it. I can feel it. I can feel that like something's not right Like I'm I'm going to this workout even though. I know I probably shouldn't go Um, I know that I'm doing this behavior even though. I know I probably shouldn't like So be gentle with yourselves. Like there are still things that I do That you know are probably in favor of fear versus in favor of my values. Like it's definitely not a perfect process um But yeah, be gentle with yourselves. It's very nuanced and you'll you know with more and more education too I think you'll notice like oh that's another sneaky thing that I deal, right? Like I always have to have 128 ounces of water or else Like usually when there's like a sense of urgency there or it's followed by a Or else else In order to is another phrase so that I feel you know, that's a really important phrase is so Good conversation. I mean we can't cover every last You know, I know there's a lot of people listening that are going to say yeah, but you didn't tell me exactly what to do But we kind of did you just didn't give you specific steps Look at the anxiety sensitivity index. I think it's available for everybody You'll be like, oh my gosh checking off all the boxes probably Identify what your specific physiological triggers are whether that dizziness nausea could be a bunch of things And start with what it is that you're avoiding. I think we like over complicate this like exposure work sometimes I think sometimes, you know, I get the most common question that I get is like What exposure should I do for this or what exposure should I do for that? And it's like Start with what you're avoiding Right, like I'll write a list of all the things that you're avoiding Write a list of all the things that you would love to be able to do if anxiety and these symptoms were on the table And identify small challenging but still manageable things you can do with response prevention That you can do make them into small manageable steps and do it and commit to it And then reach out to me and drew and say that you did that thing and we love that We'll totally cheer for you Jen is great at that for sure. I can tell you for sure And I the only thing I would add to that is as you're making that list of all the things you're afraid and all the things You're avoiding think about that. Why do I avoid it? Is it because I'm afraid of driving or is it because I'm afraid when my heart Starts to pound well if it's because your heart Well, you have you have legs and arms and you can make your heart beat faster So you can start that process Small with little baby steps if you have to get the ball rolling that's better than no steps And you could even start just in your house. You can do these things today if you really needed to So there's into it. I know that's like a totally like even more paradoxical Same intervention, but Yep, you know, I I think especially when we have these physiological symptoms and we're up against our own bodies It's very easy to be on the defense like. Oh my gosh. Why do I feel that way? Why do I feel that way? I don't want to feel that way get away from me I just want this feeling to stop Our minds that shifts as soon as we go on the offense as soon as we can say like, you know what anxiety bring it on You know, I'm recognizing my heartbeat racing bring it on throw it up a notch You know, if I have to take what you're serving give me give me two servings, right? Um, it's not gonna feel genuine. It's not gonna feel good. It's not gonna feel easy And it's not supposed to but as you continue to make this part of your regular routine and you do it more often Again, you're giving your brain those messages for next time. You're giving your brain that experience for next time Hey, jenna's like asking for me to make her even more dizzy. What the heck? How could this be? Yeah, she must not be anxious about this anymore. I guess it's okay to let down my guard now Yeah Love how you said it won't feel genuine. You're you're genuinely faking it at first. You're protected Totally fine. That's really truly a fake it to you make it Lead with the behavior and your belief will come after that's just the way it has to go Thank you so much, you know, so this is the third or fourth time jen has been on the podcast It has you haven't been on in a while But if you go to the anxious treat comm slash 229, that's a show notes for this episode I will link the other episodes we did one on orthorexia And that compulsive eating and I have to eat the proper things and compulsive exercise and then we did one on postpartum OCD if I remember correctly Really good. So jen has been on before she'll be on again as if I have my way I will wrangle you into it and I won't be late and this time next time Thank you So thanks so much. I appreciate it. I will have all the ways to get to jenna Well, how can people get to you now because they might not go to the show notes Yeah, so speaking of instagram Yeah, you can find me on instagram at jenna.overba and I also have my own podcast which i'm just realizing I don't think you were ever on All the hard things you have what that's the best name of a podcast in the whole It is inspired because One of the people that I used to work with and doing all this work And I feel like this will be relevant for your audience too is She would ask me like if I could choose to have something be easy Why would I intentionally do the hard thing? And it was like one of those moments I'll never forget because I had so many things to say but I also had nothing to say And I like really thought about that for a very long time. It's like three years later And I'm still thinking about it this concept that like doing hard things is good for you, right? Like Yeah It's how we grow in the gym, right? It's how we grow mentally. It's how we build character. It's how we learn that we can Get to the next level. It's how we you know step outside of our comfort zones. It's how we stake a claim on our own brains and you know Let this life be ours and not dictated by anxiety. So yes, it's called all the hard things for that reason because Yeah, I want to empower people to do all the hard things. It's important to do hard things It's good to do hard things You could just search anywhere that you can listen to podcast search for all the hard things or search for jenna overbar You'll find if you don't find me you'll find glen and oil because you also have one called Heart we can do hard things, but I have my name first. Yeah, I'm it Yeah, go to the source go right to jenna for kick line and oil. So uh, anyway, but if you go to my Website, I'll have all jenna's links and everything which would be great. Thank you so much for coming on my friend I appreciate it All right, I'll be back to wrap it up in a few seconds. Hang in there guys Alrighty, we are back in the studio and by the studio I mean the very same place that I have been for the last 30 minutes with jenna It just that me on the screen alone this time. She's not next to me How awesome is jenna jenna is the best. I'll give you a little behind the scenes from today I was late to record this podcast because I messed up on my calendar and jenna was gracious enough to accommodate that And I'll tell you another little inside thing that I I think she wouldn't mind me telling you When I decided that I wanted to go back to graduate school and get my master's degree and become a licensed Therapist jenna was one of the therapists who was nice enough to write me a lovely letter of recommendation to help me get into My grad program. So thank you jenna. I will always be eternally grateful for her to her for that help I will make sure to get jenna back on the podcast on a reasonably regular basis. She's busy I'm busy, but we'll make it work because every time she comes there's really good stuff to be had And if you guys do not know jenna and you want to follow her like we said at the end of the recording Go to the anxious truth comm slash 229. I will have all of her links Or if you're watching on youtube just check the video description. I'll put all of her links there Go check her out. She's awesome. That is episode 229 of the anxious truth podcast in the can I hope it has been useful to you and you've learned something something that you can use come back for more You know, it's over because music That is as always after globe by ben drake It's the song that you hear at the beginning and end of every episode of the anxious truth Ben has been gracious enough to let me use it for several years now I dig it You can find more about ben and his music and his website at ben drake music.com almost forgot that And uh, i'm going to ask you a favor as I always do if you're listening to this podcast on apple podcast or spotify Or any platform that lets you rate a review the podcast Leave a five star rating Maybe take a second and write a review because it helps other people find the podcast and we can help as many people as we possibly can I appreciate that helps me out if you're watching the video on youtube Then subscribe to the channel hit the notification bell so that you know when I upload new videos Like the video Leave a comment sometimes takes me a while circle back to my youtube comments But I always will I promise I dig you guys over on youtube and that's it We're done I will be back next week to record another podcast episode I do not know what i'm going to be talking about but I will be here and remember as always This is the way